Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Oct 14, 2003 20:01:12	hey all... i was wondering about the wizards of high socerery and the additional school they lose (bear with me ... i don't have the DCLS to reference) does it work like the red wizards of thay (3.5) in that you can still use spells of the new prohibited school that you knew BEFORE joining the order, but you just can't learn/cast new spells? or do you lose access completely, no longer being able to cast any spell of any level of the new prohibited school? thanks all...
#2 zombiegleemax Oct 14, 2003 20:11:06	does it work like the red wizards of thay (3.5) in that you can still use spells of the new prohibited school that you knew BEFORE joining the order, but you just can't learn/cast new spells? Yes
#3 zombiegleemax Oct 14, 2003 20:14:34	yes, he can still use the prohibited spells he knew before specializing, but he cannot learn new spells from the prohibited schools. Also, according to the AoM, DM option says he does not have to specialise, but instead can choose to be a generalist, but looses the benefit of enhance specialisation.
#4 zombiegleemax Oct 15, 2003 8:32:22	Still being able to cast the spells from the schools you gave up, if you knew them before you gave them up, is the reason to wait until 5th level to Test. That way if you're not a White Robe, at least you can still cast Dispel Magic. ;)
#5 shugi Oct 15, 2003 11:17:30	In addition, I think it's Tales of the Lance that states wizards can cast any spell of 4th level or less, despite the color of their robes. It isn't the same rule as 3rd edition, but it kinda adds credence to the idea that you keep your existing spells. The problem, of course, is that enterprising players can "learn" higher-level spells from prohibited schools by placing them into their spellbook before they take the Test. It's shady and loophole-legal, but is technically possible. Then again, that could've happened in Dalamar's case (for those of you who have read Dalamar the Dark)...
#6 zombiegleemax Oct 15, 2003 14:14:28	Wow Shugi, that strikes me as *really* trying to worm your way through a loophole....shady.
#7 Granakrs Oct 15, 2003 14:54:23	Originally posted by Shugi In addition, I think it's Tales of the Lance that states wizards can cast any spell of 4th level or less, despite the color of their robes. It isn't the same rule as 3rd edition, but it kinda adds credence to the idea that you keep your existing spells. Well, to be technical, i think it was 1st and 2nd levels spells, which were simple magicks for Tales of the Lance. I think this new rule may fit better than previous rules. For example, In Legends, when Raistlin and Fistandantilus faced off, Fistandantilus specifically remakes on how he started as a Red robe, to gain a better knowledge before switching to the red robes. Originally posted by Shugi The problem, of course, is that enterprising players can "learn" higher-level spells from prohibited schools by placing them into their spellbook before they take the Test. It's shady and loophole-legal, but is technically possible. Then again, that could've happened in Dalamar's case (for those of you who have read Dalamar the Dark)... Heh. I think Dalamar and Fistandantilus and many others would try to exploit this loophole. :-) however, I'd also think that use of those spells, and the manner in which they are used can determine which order they belong to. :-)
#8 shugi Oct 15, 2003 15:13:47	Originally posted by Myrridin Wow Shugi, that strikes me as *really* trying to worm your way through a loophole....shady. Definitely. I don't allow it as a DM, nor do I attempt in other games, but I've seen it used elsewhere. Granak, I think you just explained why Raistlindantilus went renegade in the manner he/they did.
#9 zombiegleemax Oct 16, 2003 0:11:58	Why do people insist that Raistlin was a renegade? He wasnt. You want proof? What was the requirement to open the Portal to the Abyss? You needed a cleric of Paladine with supreme faith in their god and a black robed mage who had done the darkest odf deeds. The portal openeed. Therefore Raistlin was not a renegade.
#10 zombiegleemax Oct 16, 2003 14:39:10	Raistlin's status as a "renegade" was based more on his failure to challenge Ladonna for rulership of the Order of the Black Robes than from an abandonment of the principles of High Sorcery. Technically, since Raistlin was more powerful than Ladonna, he should have challenged her leadership, but he never bothered, and she certainly didn't want to precipitate a duel. The Age of Mortals book offers the option of having non-specialist Wizards adopt the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class. Dalamar is cited as an example. That makes sense, since it seems unreasonable to suggest that every apprentice wizard starts out with a clear plan as to what Order they will ultimately join. So mandatory base specialization makes little sense. But retaining spells already learned makes perfect sense.
#11 kalanth Oct 16, 2003 15:09:14	Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn Why do people insist that Raistlin was a renegade? He wasnt. You want proof? What was the requirement to open the Portal to the Abyss? You needed a cleric of Paladine with supreme faith in their god and a black robed mage who had done the darkest odf deeds. The portal openeed. Therefore Raistlin was not a renegade. Afterall he wore black robes. I never once thought of him as a renegade, and would not think otherwise, regardless of wether he challenged the head of the order of the Black Robes or not.
#12 rosisha Oct 16, 2003 15:22:46	Yeah challanging for power I don't think would make him a renegade. I'm sure there are many driven mages more powerful then the leaders and the only reason they aren't in charge is because 1) they spend all their time in a library or lab and 2) no real interest. It takes a certain type of person to want political power. I always read that as meaning political power, not magical power. Rosisha
#13 carteeg Oct 16, 2003 16:41:18	I don't see how doing the 'darkest of deeds' means he wasn't a renegade. From the actions taken so far during the Kingpriest Trilogy, it is obvious that Fistandantilus was a renegade, and I think he has hands down darkened out anything Raistlin made an attempt to do. I believe Raistlin was a renegade against the actions and wishes of the Orders, however he himself believed he was holding true to the wishes of the moons (even though to a certain extent there is a contradiction since the moons want to the Orders to lead the mages.. but I'm refering to how Raistlin personally viewed things).
#14 daedavias_dup Oct 16, 2003 16:47:33	I think the fact that Raistlin was Dalamar's teacher, and Dalamar went on to be the head of the Black robes says something. That and the fact that Raistlin still adhered to some of the rules of the conclave meant that he was not a renegade. Of course, technically Raistlin fulfilled the requirements of the Portal. Was he a Black robe? Sure as heck looked like it. Was did he do the darkest of deeds? Look at the Live Ones (or the Dead Ones for that matter).
#15 zombiegleemax Oct 16, 2003 22:19:19	In regards to Raistlin, I always had the impression that he was a renegade, at least in the game statistics term (i.e. had access to spells outside the permitted schools of the black robes) but that the conclave was unwilling to "give him the boot" officially and declare him as a renegade since that would oblige them to seek him out and deal with him... something they were not willing to do.
#16 zombiegleemax Oct 17, 2003 8:41:24	Well, at least originally, one of the key concepts surrounding the differences between the Orders centered around co-existence of power. The White Robes (originally) tended to advance more slowly than the other two Orders. But they tended to ultimately reach higher levels, and all those high-level White Bobes were able to co-exist. The Black Robes on the other hand, reflecting the nature of Evil, tended to advance very rapidly. But because Evil cannot tolerate sharing power, high-level Black Robes must vy for control of their Order. Since Raistlin was more powerful than Ladonna, it was expected that he would challenge her, as this was the way of the Order of the Black Robes. But he saw that as a distraction from his larger goal (replacing the Dark Queen), so he never bothered. Otherwise he was always statistically written up as a Black Robe, never as a renegade magic-user. He seemed to continue to tie his magic to the Moons and otehrwise follow the practices of High Sorcery. So technically he wasn't a "true" renegade, just something of an iconoclast within his Order. It's worth noting that (from a 3E rules perspective) both Raistlin and Fistandantilus had previously been Red Robes, so some broader knowledge was to be expected.
#17 frojas Oct 17, 2003 10:35:38	From reading Dalamar the Dark I feel that the heads of the conclave felt that Raistlin was a renegade because he forbid the conclave access to the tower of high sorcery at palanthas. It seems that they felt that he was establishing his authority as being outside of that of the conclave. FR
#18 zombiegleemax Oct 17, 2003 13:00:49	But it's not the Conclave that really decides who is, and is not, a Wizard of High Sorcery, it's the Gods of Magic. As long as Raistlin did not divorce himself from the pull of the moons, or renounce Nuitari, then technically he was still a Black Robe. Remember that his "renegade" status was for a brief time, and only during his stint in the present. When he was playing Fistandantilus during the Age of Might, he apparently attended the Conclave. Raistlin *could* reasonably argue that since only he was allowed to pass unhindered through the Shoiken Grove, he was rightfully the Master of the Tower. He did accept an apprentice from the Conclave, Dalamar. Since Raistlin was a Black Robe, it would hardly be surprising to most members of the Conclave that he was territorial with "his" Tower. And since Nuitari's approval was implied by Raistlin's ability to enter the Tower, his encampment there could not be construed as an offense against High Sorcery.