What about Greyhawk will make them want to play there? I want to play because of nostalgia, but that's not enough for them of course...
1) Multiple layers in each story; most groups work against other groups who in turn work against others giving the setting some added depth (although the Realms does this too despite what GH fanboys may say, don't get me wrong, I'm a fan too, but I can find some cool stuff in any setting).
2) It's a more realistic setting due to the "gray areas" were it isn't always good vs evil.
3) The prescence of high magic but in small doses, tell them that this will keep things interesting since it won't jade them. New players might not get it so you'll need to explain it clearly.
Also, I'd tell them which setting you're better running games in and explaining this will make the game more fun if they give you your favorite setting to work with. Overall though, try to keep thier tastes first since they are new and keeping them is what is paramount. Hope I've helped.
The first GH product I saw was actually the 3rd edition D&D Gazetteer. My DM had actually started us out by running Middle-Earth campaigns using modified 2e. By the time I got the wherewithal to DM, 3rd edition was out and the simplicity of the D&D Gazetteer appealed to me, while at the same time sparking my interest. It appeared to hold a wealth of more information than the little booklet suggested. That's what led me to pick up the LG Gazetteer, and eventually to collect practically every GH product ever made through Ebay.
It's an endearing world. You just need to find the right angle.
I suggest doing what I'm doing. First of all, simply state that you're willing to DM, but you'll only do it using GH. The way I see it, is that it's as much the DM's game as it is the players, and since he's the one doing 90% of the work to make the game happen, if not more, then he's gotta enjoy what he's doing. If they want to play in FR, then they can damn-well DM and you can play. Win-win situation :D
Second of all... DON'T let them make up characters. Make up a dozen (at least... the more the better) characters all with cool quirks and interesting personalities and histories and make sure they're all highly integrated into the setting. What I mean by 'highly integrated' is that you should give them contacts and relatives, trainers, mentors, friends and whatnot that gives the player a very solid base to roleplay from. Also, I mean to incorporate things like his attitude regarding the politics of his area (what level of politics is up to you to decide, but even a peasant knows what's going on in his local area and probably has an opinion on it) and whether this conflicts with the local views or what his parents or he did during the Greyhawk Wars and how it affected them and include stuff like how he views such legends as Robilar and Rary and the Circle of Eight, all of whom would have bard's tales sung about them throughout the Flanaess, etc.
Then, let 'em pick whichever one they like the best and ask them to read over the histories and 'get to know' the character. Tell them they can tweak it however they want and, most importantly, tell them that they can alter the history anyway they want... that'll get them asking questions about GH lore.
Regardless, after a week or two of them having gotten the character in their heads and having imagined it as their own, throw them straight into some action and then taper off with some deep roleplaying and then finish the session after a big combat, with lots of unanswered questions and possible missions to go on.
If they aren't hooked by that stage, then they're never gonna be. At least... that's my theory; I'm yet to put it into practice but will be as soon as I can get these bloody players organized.
I enjoyed WFRP a lot back in the day. Whereas the Old World has Chaos inflecting/infecting everything, aspects of the Flanaess scintillate with possibility. Everything has the potential for as much depth as one can see in a pair of mirrors, reflecting darkly.
If you played in the old core campaign series, The Enemy Within, perhaps you'd enjoy taking a look at the From the Ashes era works. The Marklands, Iuz the Evil, and Ivid the Undying all present the wartorn Flanaess -- attempting to recover but with agents continuing to persecute each other in furtherance of their causes.
If you liked the notion of exploration beyond the Old World, several states of the Flanaess are pushing the boundaries of the knowable. Jungle ruin exploration awaits across the Azure Sea, where the indigenous tribes fight each other and struggle against the slavery of the Scarlet Brotherhood. To the far north, the barbarians, who've descended from a lost tribe of Oeridians and an ancient Bakluni horde make new alliances with unknown isle kingdoms. While Iuz's minions continue their schemes to hold His empire, the Chakyik watch. Then to the far east, the Schnai and other tribes of Rhizia look beyond the rising of the sun -- to their ancient birthrite: the shifting isles that bind fire and ice, which may be the prison of their lost god Vatun.
In summary, the World of Greyhawk settting has a great deal to offer an enterprising DM. Its seeming sparsity of detail simultaneously provides the scaffolding for your creations and the inspiration to dream large in myriad colors, yet never forgetting the dark.
Most of my party is of Oeridian stock from Veluna. Many of my players enjoyed this. I also told them about the gods of the reigion I was setting them in. This made transitions to GH easy. Second when my players asked what game world I was using I told them the one they wanted. They all thought it was FR. Eventually the truth came out and they were upset because they said I lied. I didn't lie they all enjoyed my game and that's what counted.
Besides Delgath is right! Many people think you should bend over backwards for the players. But the Dm does 90% + of the work. Shouldn't he decide where his game will start. The Dm should set the campaign where he feels most comfortable. This will help ensure a good game for both the players and DM.
Players - "Hey Dm, who's this Elmindenkainen guy we keep hearing about?"
DM - "Him? Oh, he runs the Circle of Mystra."
Appease your players to a degree for without them, there would be nothing for you to do but sit and look longingly at your book collection gathering dust. If they want to play FR but you want to play GH, run both on alternating sessions. After a short while, pick the one that works more for you and your players. I've done this on several times to get new groups introduced to Dark Sun who at first are bent on typical fantasy settings like FR. Of course as a DM, your likely to invest more energy into the setting you prefer, which will then make the choice easy for your players.
Originally posted by orange was the color...
Got your answer right here. Make a color photo-copy of the FR camapign setting, then paste it to the front of your GH gazeteer. Your players will never know the difference.
Ha! How very devious! I like it! :D
I think it will do fine
Eventually I went for FR... Was it cuz I judged the book by its cover? Probably
Unfortunately, good cover art, interesting interior illustrations, and formatting designs do play on one's ability to imagine a setting, even if its not a very conscious thing. There's been several settings that I picked up simply because the art grabbed my attention, most of which I haven't regreted (Skyrealms of Jorune being the foremost, Earthdawn being more recent). Good artwork can do wonders for aiding a DM in fleshing out the little details of his campaign. Unfortunately for GH, the artwork is a little lacking. Even the older modules suffered a bit from poor interior illustrations, even if the cover art was wonderful which sways a lot of people away.
Still, hope the game still works out for you. If it doesn't or you want a change of pace, there's still 1,001 other settings out there to try. Even if the other settings serve as a 'break' from your main campaign, try not to neglect them. Some may end up serving up more than you may innitially realize.
The best picture of all time for GH has to be the front cover of the LGG, IMO.
One of the things I like about Dark Sun and Dragonlance is the artwork for either. For DS, Brom's style gave it a very unique feel and the Dragonlance art always encapsulated moments in the stories, the world, or the major characters in a way that really gave life to the setting.
It is sad, but I would have to admit that GH art is sorely lacking. And currently, all we seem to be getting is anime-style paladins...
Travel to GH thru portals you say? That would mean that FR, GH, KoK,BR,KK,DS and any other world setting is accessable to each other on the same prime material plane? Could you say that material plane is the physical universe, and each world setting a planet?
But, Greyhawk just has that old-school feel... I dunno. Maybe I'm just trying to recapture my youth... (pitiful, eh?)
Originally posted by Kastor Lieberung
Travel to GH thru portals you say? That would mean that FR, GH, KoK,BR,KK,DS and any other world setting is accessable to each other on the same prime material plane? Could you say that material plane is the physical universe, and each world setting a planet?
I'm assuming that Oerth and Toril are separate Material Planes. That would mean that the number of Material Planes is essentially unlimited. In terms of the Great Wheel cosmology, I suppose you could picture all of these planes stacked on top of each other (or otherwise occupying the same central position). Or, as you suggest, they could be different planets in the same universe, although my personal preference is to give each setting its own universe. You could even make the real world (or at least the d20 Modern/Urban Arcana version of it) one of the other available Material Planes.
My point was, if you want to inject some Greyhawk and still let your players have their way, there are options.
You could even build up to finding the gate by introducing some plane-hopping NPCs, like Heward or Murlynd (somebody jump in if I'm not right about these two plane-hopping; if it's not them, then there's someone comparable).
At the risk of straying off topic, I want to touch on one other thing that Kastor said. If you look carefully at the 3E Manual of the Planes, there is never any mention of a Prime Material Plane. (Hey, correct me if I'm wrong.) I do remember hearing about the Prime Material Plane in a previous version, probably 2E. What's the explanation for that? Anybody know? Was "Prime" merely extraneous, or is there a special material plane out there? (Perhaps Prime in the Platonic ideal sense, or Prime as in first - the universe that was created or otherwise formed before any other?)
Originally posted by Delglath
Yeah, unfortunately, 99% of GH artwork sucks arse.
In the Greyhawk thread I started on the Future Releases board, at least one person said the reason they never got into Greyhawk in the first place was because of the cover art.
I'm assuming that Oerth and Toril are separate Material Planes.
If we treat Spelljammer as canonical, Oerth, Toril and Krynn all inhabit the material plane, albeit in separate spheres of Realmsphere, Greysphere, and Krynsphere...
The easiest (and cheesiest, IMHO) way to inject one into the other is the famous spelljammer shipwreck.
I'm thinking that a "across the spheres" theme might work well. Chasing the arch-nemesis from portal to portal, that sort of thing. Just when they finally track him down in Furyondy, he ports to Waterdeep, sort of a "where in D&D is Carmen SanDiego?"
Don't misunderstand me either, I do love the Realms for what its worth. You can't beat it for pure volume of source material, and Ed Greenwood and R.A. Salvatore are two of the best fantasy writers of our time.
Ed greenwood is considered a fantasy writer by you. I would have to object at best Ed Greenwoods work is a television children show material that tries to incorporate a little bit of everything and fails in all regards.
R.A. Salvatore, is ok I guess. But can this guy come up with something else besides the good invincible drow ranger. His first story in the series was ok at best. But the story plot is long dead and drawn out alot like The Wheel of Time series of novels. Stop beating us over the head with a dead horse.
For the most part anything that I found worth mentioning that was of some decent fantasy writing for the FR campaign was not from either of these authors.
Heck I know I just stirred up everything most FR fans like about their setting. But these are the faults of the setting to me. The world has been made into a comical video game version of what a good rpg or for that matter fantasy writing should be.
While I don't play DS I did like the different approach it took to developing its own unique game world. It doesn't fit your typical medieval fantasy setting. Which is what their fans enjoy about the setting and what many people who don't play DS dislike about it. Overall I think DS is a better alternative to the new WOTC of Ebberron which appears to be a revamped Mystara setting.
One main thing about GH is the artwork. Your right their is few and far between any piece of artwork which has ever truly inspired a new player to GH. Mainly this was because in the beginning artists were not hired to render quality pieces of art for the setting. Unfortunately this trend continued with the setting for the remainder of it's published existance.
DL is perhaps the best setting for artwork which follows a medieval fantasy setting style. One of my first games was in the DL campaign world. While the setting strays a little from the typical medieval theme. It's heart remains pure to the setting. Their is truly little wrong with the original DL setting. Fifth age however left much to be desired. But the artwork of Elmore has always been true to the settings core.
Originally posted by TheDM
You can't beat it for pure volume of source material, and Ed Greenwood and R.A. Salvatore are two of the best fantasy writers of our time.
FADE IN:
Delglath gasps and begins choking, coughing, and spluttering violently.
Patron #1
"Quick, someone use the Heimlich!"
Patron#2
"No, it won't do any good. It's a choking of the soul..."
Delglath struggles for breath and clutches at the air as he sinks to the ground, comatose.
FADE OUT.
Originally posted by Delglath
Ha! How very devious! I like it! :D
That is a good idea...they may never know the difference.
laffs
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
In the Greyhawk thread I started on the Future Releases board, at least one person said the reason they never got into Greyhawk in the first place was because of the cover art.
Well, here is an inventive plaugerizer who has made a site for Greyhawk images:
http://www.geocities.com/halzmarty/3rdedition/AG01_magic.html
Halber
Having said that, everyone is entitled to their opinion, so I'll revise: Ed Greenwood and R.A. Salvatore are arguably two of the best fantasy writers of our time.
And, to be honest, Greyhawk isn't necessarily the "best" campaign world in my view, its just the one I'd like to play for now. Next year it could be Dark Sun or even (prepare condescending sneers now) Red Steel.
/me is ducking
Originally posted by Halberkill
Well, here is an inventive plaugerizer who has made a site for Greyhawk images:
http://www.geocities.com/halzmarty/3rdedition/AG01_magic.html
Halber
If you check out the site, you'll see that they're images taken from Magic: the Gathering cards that can be substituted for Greyhawk locations. And they are better than most of the Greyhawk art I've seen. It's not (necessarily) a knock on the technical ability of the artists. Look at the cover art for the Wars box set - it's okay, but it's just not very interesting. There has - obviously - been more interesting art on Magic cards.
Originally posted by TheDM
Having said that, everyone is entitled to their opinion, so I'll revise: Ed Greenwood and R.A. Salvatore are arguably two of the best fantasy writers of our time.
In todays world of pop and pulp fiction, skill and talent are not requirements for an artist to be popular.
R.A. Salvatore hit the right key with his three original Drizz't series of books. They were original and well written. All other works of his that I've seen have not even come close to that work. From what I've heard, none of his recent stuff is any good either.
Ed Greenwood should simply give up writing fiction altogether. His characters are weak and what little characterization there is does not inspire the reader. His plots are silly and childish and, quite frankly, condescending to his audience; much like his central character, Elminster.
They are not arguably the best fantasy writers of our time. In any serious literary circle, they're not even on the radar.
Originally posted by Delglath
They are not arguably the best fantasy writers of our time. In any serious literary circle, they're not even on the radar.
I'll preface my comments by saying that I've never read anything of Ed Greenwood's, and the only book of Salvatore's that I've read was The Crystal Shard, and that was a while ago.
That said, I'd have to say that even if you like their writing, these two guys probably aren't in the top ten of a list of the best fantasy writers. I mean, we're not just talking about RPG-inspired books here, we're talking about the entire fantasy genre. The competition is pretty formidable. First, what are we talking about when we say "our time?" Anything that is still being read now, or just what has been published in the last 10 years? If we're talking about what is still being read now, then we've got to talk about J.R.R. Tolkien, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, and Roger Zelazny, for sure (and I'm sure there are some other giants of the genre that I'm forgetting right now). Then throw in guys like Terry Brooks and Neil Gaiman. How about Anne McCaffrey (unless you want to exclude her Pern books as sci-fi, which is pretty picky for a bunch of books about dragons). Marion Zimmer Bradley? J.K. Rowling? Hell, how about Weis and Hickman? You get the picture.
OK, sorry for following this thread so far off topic, but I wanted to chime in on this point.
Anne McCaffrey writes sappy soap operas dressed up a Sci-Fantasy, but even she is better than those three.
As for the real giants of fantasy, sci-fi, and horror (which should be included, particularly the supernatural horror writers), they are so far beyond authors of gaming fiction as to make comparisons effectively irrelevant. (Sort of like comparing haute cuisine to day old fast food.)
Originally posted by Samwise
Why would you want to throw in J. K. Rowling and Weis and Hickman?
Well, I did it with question marks, didn't I?
However, in defense of J.K. Rowling, I would say that the Harry Potter books are compulsively readable and very involving, or at least I found them to be so. I suppose that whether Rowling stands among the giants of fantasy literature remains to be seen.
I think it started as a "Sell me on GH" that turned into the usual "Bash FR" then turned into cross comparisons of "Great Fantasy Writers vs RPG Writers".
Just to stray the topic even further (since the topic starter has yet to close the topic by finalizing his decision on whether or not to run a GH campaign), but for those who don't know, many of the acclaimed RPG novelists (Hickmen, Weis, Salvator) while not on the bestseller lists for very long, do not have the usual shelflife that other fantasy novelists experience. In fact, though their sales level of quickly, they stay at a much higher level than those who have indeed won various awards and their books continue with respectable sales long after other fantasy novels are taken off the shelves. This is more due to the backlogging nature of the RPG industry where newcomers to the game feel the need to learn what came before, hence they still buy novels that were put out over ten or more years ago. Many award winning novelists can't boast the kind of 'ten years later' sales that the top RPG novelists still enjoy. So as to whether or not they are any good, that's speculation, opinion, and conjecture on the part of the reader. Many of these books will endure long enough to be considered 'classics' along side Tolkien, Eddings, Smith, and Lewis. In fact, some of them already are.
Originally posted by rostoff
When ten year olds line up to read an eight hundred page novel, the author deserves some respect. The world she's created is interesting and her villian very compelling.
And she gets some. For her marketing ability. But not for her writing ability.
Nor do her editors get any respect for letting her get away with an 800 page tome.
Originally posted by Samwise
Nor do her editors get any respect for letting her get away with an 800 page tome.
Length doesn't necessarily reflect on the editor. Hey, remember when Titanic won the Oscar for best editing? The movie is at least three hours long.
What was the original topic again?
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
Length doesn't necessarily reflect on the editor. Hey, remember when Titanic won the Oscar for best editing? The movie is at least three hours long.
And winning an award that long ago fell into farce is not an indication of talent either :P
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
What was the original topic again?
Err... umm... err... let me get back to you on that...