Philosophy class - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Philosophy class

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kastor_lieberung
Oct 20, 2003 10:57:12 What is the connections between gods, angels, demons and devils?

Are angels, devils and demons servitors of gods, or do they have their own agenda? Devils scheme and Demon kills, but what about angels?

if they serve the gods and different worlds like GH, FR , KoK etc are all on the same prime material plane, and accesseble to each other with portals /gates and the like.. Do they then serve hundreds of gods from all the campagn settings?

Or has each campagn setting its own plane?

Could one worship a powerful angel or devil/demon just like a intermidiate god?
#2
moogle001
Oct 20, 2003 12:19:33 Most of the celestial races live their own lives and make their own plans, while respecting the powers. The aasimon (or angels) are the only race that directly serves the deities, and even the more powerful aasimon are fully capable of acting on their own. Most only serve one pantheon or one deity.

Some mortals do worship various fiends (celestials don't tend to seek this sort of power), with varying results depending on the situation. But its unlikely it'd be as fruitfal as worshipping a true deity.
#3
zombiegleemax
Oct 20, 2003 14:23:19 And, since we're in the Planescape forum...

The Prime Material Plane of the Planescape setting contains all of the Material Worlds of every campaign setting. Each setting's gods reside somewhere on the Great Wheel, though some of the most obscure ones are hidden so well that noone can find them. The worlds are each contained within "Crystal Spheres" that float in a fiery river of phlogiston. They only way to travel from world to world is either by using the Great Wheel as a stop off station, or by utilizing a special Spelljamming ship.

To learn more about Spelljamming, please visit the Spelljammer section of these forums.
#4
Brom_Blackforge
Oct 20, 2003 16:00:07
Originally posted by L33t Angel
The Prime Material Plane of the Planescape setting contains all of the Material Worlds of every campaign setting. . . . The only way to travel from world to world is either by using the Great Wheel as a stop off station, or by utilizing a special Spelljamming ship.

So, at least in Planescape (and Spelljammer, too, I guess), there is only one material plane? This question came up in the Greyhawk forum, and over there, I said that my personal preference was to assume that each campaign setting has its own universe - i.e., its own plane - and that all of these material planes occupy essentially the same position on the Great Wheel. Is that contrary to Planescape lore? And which do you like better?
#5
zombiegleemax
Oct 20, 2003 16:26:51 From what I know, its just one big material plane.

My personal preference varies. I like the Great Wheel, and whenever I'm playing PS I love it.

But I'm also a Dragonlance fan, and I much prefer my DL to be completely seperate from other multiverses. Sure, other ones may be out in the Ethereal Sea, but Krynn and its surrounding planes are pretty much alone.
#6
factol_rhys_dup
Oct 20, 2003 16:38:39
Originally posted by Kastor Lieberung
Could one worship a powerful angel or devil/demon just like a intermidiate god?

Originally posted by moogle001
Some mortals do worship various fiends (celestials don't tend to seek this sort of power), with varying results depending on the situation. But its unlikely it'd be as fruitfal as worshipping a true deity.

Getting back to this idea, maybe when enough people worship a fiend he can become a power himself. The Athar would, at this point, suggest that all the powers attained their "divine" status by simply being believed in by enough mortals. Belief is power, after all.
#7
sildatorak
Oct 20, 2003 17:54:38 For the question about cosmology, 3e really broke planescape off from WotC's agenda. In 2e planescape was THE cosmology, though each world might have varying degrees of access and very different interpretations of what the planes actually are like.

To compensate for the "each world has its own cosmology" aspect in 3e I'd say that there are an infinite number of prime material plane "layers" and that each campaign happens in a different one and may connect to different planes. Since they are infinite, they are present in every combination, so you can run a cosmology like 2e with phlogiston and multiple crystal spheres, and can even go so far as to say that within your Planescape campaign certain places don't exist. Don't own Dragon Lance? Just houserule that there is no Krynnspace.
#8
zombiegleemax
Oct 30, 2003 3:33:47 Since the planes are infinite, including Prime it follows that there would be areas of the Prime cut off from the others. Which would explain various cosmologies of the different campaign settings. FR and the rest are simply areas of prime that are vertually cut off from the others. A clueless prime from dragonlance arrives in Sigil and learns to his shock that gee darn, there's a lot more planes than we thought! Gods too!

I always loved that about Planescape. I was just perfect. Perfectly hard to run effectively, but perfect nonetheless.

I really liked the art style aswell.
#9
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Oct 30, 2003 4:23:12 Well if you want to go with different campaign setting like Dark Sun (which was/is explicitely cut off from the rest of the prime and most of the planes), FR, DL, Greyhawk, etc, and have them cut off from each other on the prime, it still doesn't reconcile the garbage in 3e about each prime world having its own multiverse and planes etc. FR really (self edited)'d it up as far as I'm concerned.

They're trying to have their cake and eat it to by incorporating so much of the planes like aasimar, tieflings, genasi, and other planetouched, and then claimed to have their own unique cosmology.

Heck, they've completely avoided the idea of the Blood War as existing really given the FR planar cosmology now. It's largely incompatable if they hold it up as the whole and infallible truth.

The way I'll always see it, they're all in one big prime, with the same set of planes. But they may all have a flawed prime scholar's knowledge of the planes, and their own religions' teaching them so and so about the planes forming a bit of inherant self selective bias to how they would view and invision the planes. But the truth might shock them the moment they step through a portal.
#10
kastor_lieberung
Oct 30, 2003 6:01:31 Each DM has their own idea of how to run their campaign world. But for this thread lets follow the DM guide 3,5 thats says the d&d multiverse exists of 27 planes.

Its seems WotCs general idea is that each camaign world setting is separated with their own 27 planes, thus the material plane is the world which is described in the campaignsetting. This seems obvious since they have licenced d&d to other companies and dont want to mix worlds they dont have control over into one gigantic prime.

Since I have purchased the FR CS, I wonder if the gods of this world commands angels and demons/devils to do their bidding, or if they are competative or allies in any way..

Also the FRCS have playable races affinity to other planes; Genasi, Thiefling, etc.. Some even suggested in a FR thread that these races could have affinity to the gods, such as a thiefling of Bane; <http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106242>

Any thoughts on this?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kastor_lieberung Oct 20, 2003 10:57:12	What is the connections between gods, angels, demons and devils? Are angels, devils and demons servitors of gods, or do they have their own agenda? Devils scheme and Demon kills, but what about angels? if they serve the gods and different worlds like GH, FR , KoK etc are all on the same prime material plane, and accesseble to each other with portals /gates and the like.. Do they then serve hundreds of gods from all the campagn settings? Or has each campagn setting its own plane? Could one worship a powerful angel or devil/demon just like a intermidiate god?
#2 moogle001 Oct 20, 2003 12:19:33	Most of the celestial races live their own lives and make their own plans, while respecting the powers. The aasimon (or angels) are the only race that directly serves the deities, and even the more powerful aasimon are fully capable of acting on their own. Most only serve one pantheon or one deity. Some mortals do worship various fiends (celestials don't tend to seek this sort of power), with varying results depending on the situation. But its unlikely it'd be as fruitfal as worshipping a true deity.
#3 zombiegleemax Oct 20, 2003 14:23:19	And, since we're in the Planescape forum... The Prime Material Plane of the Planescape setting contains all of the Material Worlds of every campaign setting. Each setting's gods reside somewhere on the Great Wheel, though some of the most obscure ones are hidden so well that noone can find them. The worlds are each contained within "Crystal Spheres" that float in a fiery river of phlogiston. They only way to travel from world to world is either by using the Great Wheel as a stop off station, or by utilizing a special Spelljamming ship. To learn more about Spelljamming, please visit the Spelljammer section of these forums.
#4 Brom_Blackforge Oct 20, 2003 16:00:07	Originally posted by L33t Angel The Prime Material Plane of the Planescape setting contains all of the Material Worlds of every campaign setting. . . . The only way to travel from world to world is either by using the Great Wheel as a stop off station, or by utilizing a special Spelljamming ship. So, at least in Planescape (and Spelljammer, too, I guess), there is only one material plane? This question came up in the Greyhawk forum, and over there, I said that my personal preference was to assume that each campaign setting has its own universe - i.e., its own plane - and that all of these material planes occupy essentially the same position on the Great Wheel. Is that contrary to Planescape lore? And which do you like better?
#5 zombiegleemax Oct 20, 2003 16:26:51	From what I know, its just one big material plane. My personal preference varies. I like the Great Wheel, and whenever I'm playing PS I love it. But I'm also a Dragonlance fan, and I much prefer my DL to be completely seperate from other multiverses. Sure, other ones may be out in the Ethereal Sea, but Krynn and its surrounding planes are pretty much alone.
#6 factol_rhys_dup Oct 20, 2003 16:38:39	Originally posted by Kastor Lieberung Could one worship a powerful angel or devil/demon just like a intermidiate god? Originally posted by moogle001 Some mortals do worship various fiends (celestials don't tend to seek this sort of power), with varying results depending on the situation. But its unlikely it'd be as fruitfal as worshipping a true deity. Getting back to this idea, maybe when enough people worship a fiend he can become a power himself. The Athar would, at this point, suggest that all the powers attained their "divine" status by simply being believed in by enough mortals. Belief is power, after all.
#7 sildatorak Oct 20, 2003 17:54:38	For the question about cosmology, 3e really broke planescape off from WotC's agenda. In 2e planescape was THE cosmology, though each world might have varying degrees of access and very different interpretations of what the planes actually are like. To compensate for the "each world has its own cosmology" aspect in 3e I'd say that there are an infinite number of prime material plane "layers" and that each campaign happens in a different one and may connect to different planes. Since they are infinite, they are present in every combination, so you can run a cosmology like 2e with phlogiston and multiple crystal spheres, and can even go so far as to say that within your Planescape campaign certain places don't exist. Don't own Dragon Lance? Just houserule that there is no Krynnspace.
#8 zombiegleemax Oct 30, 2003 3:33:47	Since the planes are infinite, including Prime it follows that there would be areas of the Prime cut off from the others. Which would explain various cosmologies of the different campaign settings. FR and the rest are simply areas of prime that are vertually cut off from the others. A clueless prime from dragonlance arrives in Sigil and learns to his shock that gee darn, there's a lot more planes than we thought! Gods too! I always loved that about Planescape. I was just perfect. Perfectly hard to run effectively, but perfect nonetheless. I really liked the art style aswell.
#9 Shemeska_the_Marauder Oct 30, 2003 4:23:12	Well if you want to go with different campaign setting like Dark Sun (which was/is explicitely cut off from the rest of the prime and most of the planes), FR, DL, Greyhawk, etc, and have them cut off from each other on the prime, it still doesn't reconcile the garbage in 3e about each prime world having its own multiverse and planes etc. FR really (self edited)'d it up as far as I'm concerned. They're trying to have their cake and eat it to by incorporating so much of the planes like aasimar, tieflings, genasi, and other planetouched, and then claimed to have their own unique cosmology. Heck, they've completely avoided the idea of the Blood War as existing really given the FR planar cosmology now. It's largely incompatable if they hold it up as the whole and infallible truth. The way I'll always see it, they're all in one big prime, with the same set of planes. But they may all have a flawed prime scholar's knowledge of the planes, and their own religions' teaching them so and so about the planes forming a bit of inherant self selective bias to how they would view and invision the planes. But the truth might shock them the moment they step through a portal.
#10 kastor_lieberung Oct 30, 2003 6:01:31	Each DM has their own idea of how to run their campaign world. But for this thread lets follow the DM guide 3,5 thats says the d&d multiverse exists of 27 planes. Its seems WotCs general idea is that each camaign world setting is separated with their own 27 planes, thus the material plane is the world which is described in the campaignsetting. This seems obvious since they have licenced d&d to other companies and dont want to mix worlds they dont have control over into one gigantic prime. Since I have purchased the FR CS, I wonder if the gods of this world commands angels and demons/devils to do their bidding, or if they are competative or allies in any way.. Also the FRCS have playable races affinity to other planes; Genasi, Thiefling, etc.. Some even suggested in a FR thread that these races could have affinity to the gods, such as a thiefling of Bane; <http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106242> Any thoughts on this?