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What makes a module Greyhawkish?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Oct 21, 2003 10:57:12 What makes a module a Greyhawk module?

Is it enough to just set it in Greyhawk by using a place name? I don't think so...

Fifteen years ago, it was fine for module designers to just make up anything they wanted to and call it Greyhawk, but these days, you have to cater to a whole managerie of factions and please at least half of them for your work to be considered 'canon'.

I'm in the process of designing a GH dungeon crawl that I hope to submit to Dungeon. My problem is that I only have some very vague ideas about how to make it Greyhawk specific. I want the adventure to be GH specifc enough that reworking it to fit FR would be difficult, but not impossible. Therefore I need it to be grounded in GH solidly enough to be able to say it's a GH module.

So... any ideas on how to make a module Greyhawkish?
#2
grodog
Oct 21, 2003 13:59:37 You might check out Nitescreed's essay at http://hem.passagen.se/hoglins/greyhawk/greyinfo.htm

I'm not sure if this was the most current version he/she'd created, but I still find it a useful reference. If you dig around in the Greytalk Archive, you'll be able to find a ton of discussion, pro and con, in response to it.
#3
zombiegleemax
Oct 21, 2003 14:03:29 Well, for one thing, it always seemed to me like there was a story behind the story in most of the GH stuff. One of the things I always loved about this setting is that everything is not always as it appears.
#4
zombiegleemax
Oct 21, 2003 14:03:32 These days, fans are happy to see any GH module in Dungeon. (So glad Erik is editor now.) Nevertheless, to make a module feel like true Greyhawk, I think it needs some creativity, but it also needs to draw from classic symbols of Greyhawk which give the setting its unique appeal.

If you wish to write a module about an artifact that is having some strange magical effect for example, you have several things to account for:
1) You must decide how the artifact was crafted. Since in Oerth artifacts are rare and ancient, it would be good to somehow tie-in the artifact with one of Oerth's more reputable deities. I would also recommend that it NOT be one of the deities out of the PHB. An artifact that is holy to the Old Faith, Lendor, or Istus would be a good idea.
2) You must decide where in the Flanaess the artifact is most likely to turn up. If you place a holy weapon of St. Cuthbert in the middle of the Rakers, you will raise eyebrows unless you provide some explanation for why it is there.
3) You must decide why the artifact is adventure-worthy. Is it the source of some, as-yet-to-be-explained problem in the Flanaess? Does it aggravate an already tense situation? For example, priests of Incabulos have propositioned a Bandit King with great wealth and victory in battle if he will help them recover the means necessary to activate an artifact that will spell doom for the central Flanaess. Even now, some of the artifact's powers have started to manifest themselves over the land, causing plague and famine throughout the Bandit Kingdoms and neighboring County of Urnst. The Countess there is desperate to find the source of the problem.

Cater to the things GH fans hold sacred, but try to offer a new twist on things. Don't make Iuz Lawful Evil, but perhaps introduce a new order of monks that for some bizarre reason follows the chaotic demigod, a reason the PCs must uncover.
#5
Argon
Oct 21, 2003 14:48:32 If your going dungeon crawling in GH. You have to make it based upon something in GH past. Perhaps a long lost tomb were the Leara were first produced. A sealed off passage to forgotten Suel magics. The artifact theory could work as well. I like the magic items from the Greyhawk 2nd edition hardcover book #2023. In the hardcover book their are items such as the War staff of Nyrond, the Fire wand of the Suloise, The Black Crown of Aerdy, and so much more coll and unique items.
I like to run such crawls with many natural trps and magical ones to over come. I make it a point for this to be the only magical treasure the party secures. This makes for hours of more enjoyable roleplay as the party fights over whom should keep this items for themselves. This also brings up issues such as are we capable of controling the item or does it control us.
Any of my suggestions would help make the GH module specific. Remember to keep with a true GH feel there must be a detailed history , and a reason for such a dungeon.

Good Luck I hope this helps!
#6
zombiegleemax
Oct 21, 2003 20:21:34
Originally posted by Blackwolf
Well, for one thing, it always seemed to me like there was a story behind the story in most of the GH stuff. One of the things I always loved about this setting is that everything is not always as it appears.

Ooh, goody! I must be on to something then as that is the central theme of my adventure :D

Originally posted by airwalkrr
Cater to the things GH fans hold sacred, but try to offer a new twist on things.

Ahh, but WHAT is sacred to GH fans? Are we talking 'sacred cows' or simply themes and concepts that are central to most GH modules?

As for Nitescreed's essay, I read it ages ago and thought it quite profound but also found that a LOT of people thought it bunk. For my own campaign, I give a rats butt-crack what people think, but since I'm doing this for everyone else, I have to consider what THEY want. Still, thanks for the link, I'll give it another look and see what I can get out of it.

Originally posted by Argon
Any of my suggestions would help make the GH module specific. Remember to keep with a true GH feel there must be a detailed history , and a reason for such a dungeon.

I think I've hit upon at least 90% of what you suggested so at least I seem to be on the right track. Mmm... now I'm getting excited about making it which is good, modules are a BEEYATCH to create so I need all the motivation I can get :D
#7
zombiegleemax
Oct 22, 2003 12:14:42 For a Greyhawk dungeon crawl, I'd make things tough and nasty for the PCs. I'd make connections to Greyhawk's history and geography (d'oh!) - but I'd try not to overwhelm the players too much with Greyhawk lore. I wouldn't shrink from having really, really unpleasant villains (preferably old-school demons or devils). There'd also be moral ambiguity, intrigue and the suggestion of things going on behind the scenes (e.g. 'If we defeat these priests of Incabulos, will we be helping Demogorgon's servants to locate the Crystal of the Ebon Flame?' - er, but maybe not as bad as that example). I'd try to think of hooks for future adventures.

But that's just me...I could be wrong.
#8
Halberkill
Oct 22, 2003 14:31:03
Originally posted by grodog
You might check out Nitescreed's essay at http://hem.passagen.se/hoglins/greyhawk/greyinfo.htm

Whatever happened to Nitescreed? Did he get tired of starting too many Greyhawk flame wars?

Halber
#9
zombiegleemax
Oct 22, 2003 19:38:04
Originally posted by Grugach
For a Greyhawk dungeon crawl, I'd make things tough and nasty for the PCs. I'd make connections to Greyhawk's history and geography (d'oh!) - but I'd try not to overwhelm the players too much with Greyhawk lore. I wouldn't shrink from having really, really unpleasant villains (preferably old-school demons or devils). There'd also be moral ambiguity, intrigue and the suggestion of things going on behind the scenes (e.g. 'If we defeat these priests of Incabulos, will we be helping Demogorgon's servants to locate the Crystal of the Ebon Flame?' - er, but maybe not as bad as that example). I'd try to think of hooks for future adventures.

But that's just me...I could be wrong.

Really nasty villians: check.
Connections to GH history and geography: check.
Moral ambiguity: check.
Intrigue: check.
Behind the scenes action: check.
Hooks for future adventures: hmm... gotta work on that one.

Hehe, looks like I'm going well with my overall concept and design then if I'm gelling with most of what people have suggested. Now if only I could get my butt into high gear and get the thing done!
#10
grodog
Oct 22, 2003 23:56:26
Originally posted by Halberkill
Whatever happened to Nitescreed? Did he get tired of starting too many Greyhawk flame wars?

Halber

Not sure Halber: I haven't heard a peep or even the rumor of a peep from the 'screed in quite a few years....
#11
Argon
Oct 23, 2003 6:14:25
Hehe, looks like I'm going well with my overall concept and design then if I'm gelling with most of what people have suggested. Now if only I could get my butt into high gear and get the thing done!

Delgath don't try and rush your module. It will be of better quality if you take your time on it. NOt saying that if your on a roll to stop and finish later. Instead get your inspiration where you can and go from their.
Hell if I waited everytime I was on an inspiration fire I would of written nothing. On the other hand if I rushed a write up I wouldn't of been pleased with my results. So take it in spurts I think Gygax and Kuntz follow my philosophy with their Zagyg castle product.
I think you all see where I'm going with this one! Good Luck!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Oct 21, 2003 10:57:12	What makes a module a Greyhawk module? Is it enough to just set it in Greyhawk by using a place name? I don't think so... Fifteen years ago, it was fine for module designers to just make up anything they wanted to and call it Greyhawk, but these days, you have to cater to a whole managerie of factions and please at least half of them for your work to be considered 'canon'. I'm in the process of designing a GH dungeon crawl that I hope to submit to Dungeon. My problem is that I only have some very vague ideas about how to make it Greyhawk specific. I want the adventure to be GH specifc enough that reworking it to fit FR would be difficult, but not impossible. Therefore I need it to be grounded in GH solidly enough to be able to say it's a GH module. So... any ideas on how to make a module Greyhawkish?
#2 grodog Oct 21, 2003 13:59:37	You might check out Nitescreed's essay at http://hem.passagen.se/hoglins/greyhawk/greyinfo.htm I'm not sure if this was the most current version he/she'd created, but I still find it a useful reference. If you dig around in the Greytalk Archive, you'll be able to find a ton of discussion, pro and con, in response to it.
#3 zombiegleemax Oct 21, 2003 14:03:29	Well, for one thing, it always seemed to me like there was a story behind the story in most of the GH stuff. One of the things I always loved about this setting is that everything is not always as it appears.
#4 zombiegleemax Oct 21, 2003 14:03:32	These days, fans are happy to see any GH module in Dungeon. (So glad Erik is editor now.) Nevertheless, to make a module feel like true Greyhawk, I think it needs some creativity, but it also needs to draw from classic symbols of Greyhawk which give the setting its unique appeal. If you wish to write a module about an artifact that is having some strange magical effect for example, you have several things to account for: 1) You must decide how the artifact was crafted. Since in Oerth artifacts are rare and ancient, it would be good to somehow tie-in the artifact with one of Oerth's more reputable deities. I would also recommend that it NOT be one of the deities out of the PHB. An artifact that is holy to the Old Faith, Lendor, or Istus would be a good idea. 2) You must decide where in the Flanaess the artifact is most likely to turn up. If you place a holy weapon of St. Cuthbert in the middle of the Rakers, you will raise eyebrows unless you provide some explanation for why it is there. 3) You must decide why the artifact is adventure-worthy. Is it the source of some, as-yet-to-be-explained problem in the Flanaess? Does it aggravate an already tense situation? For example, priests of Incabulos have propositioned a Bandit King with great wealth and victory in battle if he will help them recover the means necessary to activate an artifact that will spell doom for the central Flanaess. Even now, some of the artifact's powers have started to manifest themselves over the land, causing plague and famine throughout the Bandit Kingdoms and neighboring County of Urnst. The Countess there is desperate to find the source of the problem. Cater to the things GH fans hold sacred, but try to offer a new twist on things. Don't make Iuz Lawful Evil, but perhaps introduce a new order of monks that for some bizarre reason follows the chaotic demigod, a reason the PCs must uncover.
#5 Argon Oct 21, 2003 14:48:32	If your going dungeon crawling in GH. You have to make it based upon something in GH past. Perhaps a long lost tomb were the Leara were first produced. A sealed off passage to forgotten Suel magics. The artifact theory could work as well. I like the magic items from the Greyhawk 2nd edition hardcover book #2023. In the hardcover book their are items such as the War staff of Nyrond, the Fire wand of the Suloise, The Black Crown of Aerdy, and so much more coll and unique items. I like to run such crawls with many natural trps and magical ones to over come. I make it a point for this to be the only magical treasure the party secures. This makes for hours of more enjoyable roleplay as the party fights over whom should keep this items for themselves. This also brings up issues such as are we capable of controling the item or does it control us. Any of my suggestions would help make the GH module specific. Remember to keep with a true GH feel there must be a detailed history , and a reason for such a dungeon. Good Luck I hope this helps!
#6 zombiegleemax Oct 21, 2003 20:21:34	Originally posted by Blackwolf Well, for one thing, it always seemed to me like there was a story behind the story in most of the GH stuff. One of the things I always loved about this setting is that everything is not always as it appears. Ooh, goody! I must be on to something then as that is the central theme of my adventure :D Originally posted by airwalkrr Cater to the things GH fans hold sacred, but try to offer a new twist on things. Ahh, but WHAT is sacred to GH fans? Are we talking 'sacred cows' or simply themes and concepts that are central to most GH modules? As for Nitescreed's essay, I read it ages ago and thought it quite profound but also found that a LOT of people thought it bunk. For my own campaign, I give a rats butt-crack what people think, but since I'm doing this for everyone else, I have to consider what THEY want. Still, thanks for the link, I'll give it another look and see what I can get out of it. Originally posted by Argon Any of my suggestions would help make the GH module specific. Remember to keep with a true GH feel there must be a detailed history , and a reason for such a dungeon. I think I've hit upon at least 90% of what you suggested so at least I seem to be on the right track. Mmm... now I'm getting excited about making it which is good, modules are a BEEYATCH to create so I need all the motivation I can get :D
#7 zombiegleemax Oct 22, 2003 12:14:42	For a Greyhawk dungeon crawl, I'd make things tough and nasty for the PCs. I'd make connections to Greyhawk's history and geography (d'oh!) - but I'd try not to overwhelm the players too much with Greyhawk lore. I wouldn't shrink from having really, really unpleasant villains (preferably old-school demons or devils). There'd also be moral ambiguity, intrigue and the suggestion of things going on behind the scenes (e.g. 'If we defeat these priests of Incabulos, will we be helping Demogorgon's servants to locate the Crystal of the Ebon Flame?' - er, but maybe not as bad as that example). I'd try to think of hooks for future adventures. But that's just me...I could be wrong.
#8 Halberkill Oct 22, 2003 14:31:03	Originally posted by grodog You might check out Nitescreed's essay at http://hem.passagen.se/hoglins/greyhawk/greyinfo.htm Whatever happened to Nitescreed? Did he get tired of starting too many Greyhawk flame wars? Halber
#9 zombiegleemax Oct 22, 2003 19:38:04	Originally posted by Grugach For a Greyhawk dungeon crawl, I'd make things tough and nasty for the PCs. I'd make connections to Greyhawk's history and geography (d'oh!) - but I'd try not to overwhelm the players too much with Greyhawk lore. I wouldn't shrink from having really, really unpleasant villains (preferably old-school demons or devils). There'd also be moral ambiguity, intrigue and the suggestion of things going on behind the scenes (e.g. 'If we defeat these priests of Incabulos, will we be helping Demogorgon's servants to locate the Crystal of the Ebon Flame?' - er, but maybe not as bad as that example). I'd try to think of hooks for future adventures. But that's just me...I could be wrong. Really nasty villians: check. Connections to GH history and geography: check. Moral ambiguity: check. Intrigue: check. Behind the scenes action: check. Hooks for future adventures: hmm... gotta work on that one. Hehe, looks like I'm going well with my overall concept and design then if I'm gelling with most of what people have suggested. Now if only I could get my butt into high gear and get the thing done!
#10 grodog Oct 22, 2003 23:56:26	Originally posted by Halberkill Whatever happened to Nitescreed? Did he get tired of starting too many Greyhawk flame wars? Halber Not sure Halber: I haven't heard a peep or even the rumor of a peep from the 'screed in quite a few years....
#11 Argon Oct 23, 2003 6:14:25	Hehe, looks like I'm going well with my overall concept and design then if I'm gelling with most of what people have suggested. Now if only I could get my butt into high gear and get the thing done! Delgath don't try and rush your module. It will be of better quality if you take your time on it. NOt saying that if your on a roll to stop and finish later. Instead get your inspiration where you can and go from their. Hell if I waited everytime I was on an inspiration fire I would of written nothing. On the other hand if I rushed a write up I wouldn't of been pleased with my results. So take it in spurts I think Gygax and Kuntz follow my philosophy with their Zagyg castle product. I think you all see where I'm going with this one! Good Luck!