What if the inner planes.. whether on their own, or by way of the forces that dwell there... or perhaps some effort from the rilmani, or any number of other possibilities.. started to 'strike back'.
Fire or Water, Positive or Negative, Para or Quasi, the elemental planes have been tainted too much, for too long. The genies were bad enough, so ancient that they have become natives, but the increasing invasions of celestials, fiends, and planars, and even the occassional prime, are taking hold of parts of the source of all, and spreading like viruses. A floating isle on the plane of air here, a citidel amidst ash there, and it's all becoming far too... organic.
Well, the inner planes can play hard ball too.
Elemental beings, whether pure, or formed like their foes (human-shaped, monster-shaped, etc), increase in numbers.
They gather. They plot. They plan.
A few small floating islands are found covered in ice, beneath which lies only ashes...
One-way portals are opened on the prime, forming vast, saline lakes and terrible volcanoes errupt from whence a civlization had arrisen.
Elemental gate towns are formed on the outlands devoted to the elements, forming a curious symmetry, with water as far from air as earth is from fire, etc etc etc.
Powerful elementals make their way to the outer planes, taking residence in the waters of oceanus, the furnaces of Gehenna, and the skies of the beastlands
Long ago, or so some sages say, the inner planes threw off the corrupted mire that became the prime, the ethereal a vapor trail left after so great an upheaval... the maggots did rise from this filth, and grow and evolve, sending their hopes and dreams to form the astral and the wheel. But the maggots and their dreams dared to seek their source, and trod upon the pure ground they had been so forcefully ejected from. Now, as it did before, the elements shall cleanse themselves, even if they have to consume the rest of the planes to do so.
Or, not. Eh.
Shortly after this event happened, the "Master Elemental" and the Lady of Pain would go to war, sparking a massive inter-planar conflict between the Inner Planes(Substance) and the Outer Planes(Belief)
........................................................................................................
I really like your take on the Prime being the drudge of the Inner Planes, and the source of all, makes for some interesting stories and modules if I do say so myself...
The only issue with the inner planes reacting negatively to outer planar influences is that many of the inner planar beings have reacted willing to and embraced the taint of good and evil. The Archomentals being the prime example of course.
Of course you might simply assume that the true powers of the neutral elements may simply get tired of balancing out the Archomentals, tired of their wars against each other and decide to strike back actively. That would be interesting.
There's also the question of if the Archomentals non neutral taint is even due to the influence of the inner planes (the evil ones anyways) They of course claim to be descended from the elder elemental god (Tharizdun being as aspect of it). And that just opens up a whole new can of worms when you take that into respect.
Now of course I'll admit here that the inner planes are, by and large, my weak point. The Inner Planes guide is the one supplement I don't own in paper format. Comments on any of the points I made, especially if they may be misguided are welcome(*nudge nudge hint to my players* ;))
Although evenly matched, the Lady eventually was able to defeat the EEG, and therefore create the dominant Outer Planes we see in our Multiverse today.
But alas Shemiska, I degress that I too am ignorant to the full scope of the Inner Planes(Despite owning the Planescape boxed set and PSMC3). Its a badly neglected part of the Planes in my opinion. Honestly, when you think Planescape, does the Inner Planes even cross your mind? I'd bet that the Outer Planes and Sigil do, but not the Inner Planes.
PS. Is there a text version of the Inner Planes guide somewhere I could download?
Of course, we do have our traitors, who, willingly or otherwise, would seek to give new 'dark', as you call it, to those cast from purity, but, thankfully, the vast majority of the population has no awareness of the power around them, anymore than the secrets of magic are given to commoners on the prime.
There is, admittedly, the worry of the 'frontier' habit that grows in those who find their way to the inner planes, that such may change the secret nature of the greatest truths of the multiverse. But, of course, there's a reason even the powers so rarely dare to seek it.
Originally posted by Incenjucar
Even then, there are few that are not OF the elements who can look around and find a landmark in our pleasantly warm home. It's rather hard to explore an infinite plane when you can't even identify the many, and obvious marks that surround you.
Are there really people who can't navigate the home plane? What about to the City of Brass? Everyone can find that, can't they? I mean, it practically calls to you.
Originally posted by Incenjucar
What if the inner planes.. whether on their own, or by way of the forces that dwell there... or perhaps some effort from the rilmani, or any number of other possibilities.. started to 'strike back'.
Long ago, or so some sages say, the inner planes threw off the corrupted mire that became the prime, the ethereal a vapor trail left after so great an upheaval... the maggots did rise from this filth, and grow and evolve, sending their hopes and dreams to form the astral and the wheel. But the maggots and their dreams dared to seek their source, and trod upon the pure ground they had been so forcefully ejected from. Now, as it did before, the elements shall cleanse themselves, even if they have to consume the rest of the planes to do so.
This topic has always interested me. The “pure” true neutral inner planar creatures taking back there home planes from the infection of others who are tainted by lack of elemental “pureness” or swayed by other alignments. There neutral nature would be more like the xenophobic pureness of the Kamerel that dwell in the Mirrored Library on the Outlands, rather than the balanced neutral of the Rilmani. It would be a glorious conflict.
In Tales from the Infinite Staircase there is an elemental being, an air genasi called Myess (the Gasping Strangler to the inhabitancies of the Blurophil, an floating city in the Plane of Air), how is just like this.
“Myess has always believed he was more than the mere mortals around him. So contemptuous were his feeling that he soon began to hate the presence of humans and other creatures not native to Air. After years of basking in his hatred, Myess finally decided that it was his duty, because of his combined heritage, to rid the plane of all creatures not born of the winds. Humans and other creatures on the Elemental Plane of Air must die.”
He set about strangling non-natives, taking back the air that they “stole” from the plane.
When I played through Tales as a PC, my DM played Myess a tragic defender of his violated homeland, instead of an insane serial killer. We spoke to him at one point, where he compared the stealing of the Planes air to the innocent, but destructive logging of forests or the raising of fertile planes into farmlands (the party had a elves and a bariaur in it). Even though he was killed in the end, no one in the party felt satisfied at defeating the story’s “villin”.
So as you can see such a idea could lead to some very interesting, and morally ambiguous roleplaying.
Originally posted by Bob the Efreet
Are there really people who can't navigate the home plane? What about to the City of Brass? Everyone can find that, can't they? I mean, it practically calls to you.
"You mistake a cancerous growth for a landmark. Those native to the planes of beginning can feel the different essences of fire, or the different ways the earth cracks, or the stiffness of the breeze, or the flow of the water. They are nigh imperceptable to those who are not of the elements themselves, and even my simpler brethren do not know the sheer depths of the elements. Amusing, really. You mortals get so excited about the newly-discovered far realm, when the inner realms hold so many more things that you will never understand, though you have known the outer layers for so long."
Originally posted by Incenjucar
Elemental gate towns are formed on the outlands devoted to the elements, forming a curious symmetry, with water as far from air as earth is from fire, etc etc etc.
Elemental gate towns would be very interesting, and it would give a major jolt to the Outlands inhabitancies, who are Outer Planes centric. But this would also make the Outlands more “balance” as it were, becoming the centre of not only the Outer but also the Inner Planes.
Personally the inner planes are among some of the most.....philosophically inspiring, for a Doomguard anyway.
I hope that the Inner planes are explored more in the 3e than they were in 2e. They are very different form the more convention Outer planes and would be well worth some more input.
(I've actually sketched out that exact idea before, in my notes. Bwahaha.)
"But yes... the sheer ignorance about that of the planes of beginning that you mortals are allowed to know about is horrendous. If you're going to invade a place and spread your filth around, you should at least have the decency to get a few bards and sages to speak of the sheer wonders we let you percieve."
Originally posted by Incenjucar
"Those native to the planes of beginning can feel the different essences of fire."
Yes, yes, of course I can do that. And I realise the small nuances of the home plane are beyond mortals, but I thought something as obvious as the Grand City could be found by anyone.
Originally posted by Incenjucar
But yes... the sheer ignorance about that of the planes of beginning that you mortals are allowed to know about is horrendous.
Well enlighten this mortal. Tell new about the Inner Planes.
Important Features of Water:
- The source of currents.
- Nodes of Distilled Purity (The plane of water is, most likely, akin to mineral water; if it was absolutely pure H2O, it would sloooowly leech minerals off your body, since it would have all that room to solute. No major effect for mortals without long term exposure, but very unhealthy to drink, and since it's pure, no oxygen for gill-users.)
- Locations where the surrounding light varies
Important Features of Earth:
- Mineral and Crystal Veins
- Location of constant grinding pressure, akin to an ever-lasting fault line
- Location of earth unsullied by air
- Location of the most supremely dense earth, that even xorn can't move through
Important Features of Air:
- Source of winds
- Locations of pure gasses (Helium, Hydrogen, Oxygen, are much fun.)
- Thick air, as if under serious atmospheric pressure, that can collapse a lung
Important Features of Fire:
- The "Fiery Underground" beneath that metal-like solid flame.
- The source of the different forms of fire
- The 'shores' and 'continents' where the solid fire rises above the fiery sea
- The great heights, so high as even the elementals could no longer see the solidified turf, and where the thinnest form of flame is found.
- Locations of clean flame, where all you can see is the ripple of heat
Originally posted by Incenjucar
[b]
Important Features of Water:
- The source of currents.
- Nodes of Distilled Purity (The plane of water is, most likely, akin to mineral water; if it was absolutely pure H2O, it would sloooowly leech minerals off your body, since it would have all that room to solute. No major effect for mortals without long term exposure, but very unhealthy to drink, and since it's pure, no oxygen for gill-users.)
- Locations where the surrounding light varies
Well thats not exactly true Incenjucar. Don't forget, the PCMC3 explicitly said that fish of both Fresh and Salt varietys(including impossibly large ones) live in the Plane(and they all have Gills). As for Elemental Water being drinkable, I'd think Mineral Water would be corrupted Elemental Water somehow. I think Spring Water would be closer, but still not quite the same.
"Water is the least superior of all the elements, anyways, so it hardly matters."
Oh, and Incenjuar, as a native of the Inner Planes, any theorys as to why the ParaElemental Plane of Ice is almost as powerful as one of the core Elemental Planes? Its the only inner plane other than the four basic Elemental Planes to have an Archomental(Cryonax) Is Ice on its way to becoming the 5th element?
As for ice... ooze has one too, that doesn't make it more powerful or more 'true', anymore than a king standing on dirt makes that dirt more important. Besides, ice still has to contend with treasured, but greedy ash; ice can hurt, certainly, but ash can drain a red dragon like a lich can drain a mortal, at the same time. Not to mention; it can also harm beings of purest cold, on top of it all."
Even thought the gentle lapping of a sea at a cities foundations will cause them to decay within hundred, if not thousands of years, a good fire could turn that city to ash in hours. 
The only sodding birks that would chose water to accomplish there ends are the sodding Ashers. Giving the Doomguard a bad name they are. If only the assault on the Crumbling Citadel had finished them.
-Jack Frost, "Fire and Ice"
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity. " - excerpt from Yeats, 'The Second Coming'
*slouches towards Sigil*
"Or perhaps am I getting ahead of myself here with my own level of importance in the grand scheme of evil?"
As it has been mentioned before in this discussion, and I am shore that you realize, the Inner Planes have been a somewhat neglected part of Planescape. It would be great to finally explore them in-depth.:D
Alas, I must confess that I do believe that fire is the superior of the elements and that water is one of the weaker. Even thought the gentle lapping of a sea at a cities foundations will cause them to decay within hundred, if not thousands of years, a good fire could turn that city to ash in hours.
All the elements are balanced, that's why the Inner Planes still exist, berks. You might as well say Law is better than Chaos, or Good is better than Evil, as say Fire is better than Water. Of course if you ask cutters like Incenjucar or Bob they'll like Fire best, just like Mephistopholes will like Evil and Primus will like Law. That doesn't make 'em better. Water will take just about as long to wash away a city as fire will to burn through a boulder, or earth to petrify a body, or, for that matter, negative energy to seep into an elf's bones. Water can also be sodding quick and smash the city to pieces in one wave, just like fire could crack the boulder in half, earth crush the body in an avalanche, or negative energy suck some basher's levels. The elements are subtle and powerful forces all, bubber, how 'bout some respect.
Prove to me that good's greater.
Take 3 15th level fighters sometime. Then, throw (literally) an infinite number of 3rd level fighters at them. Just keep throwing more of the 3rd level fighters until the higher level ones are dead, and then see which side won the battle.
Each individual lower plane is stronger than the corresponding upper one, but the Upper planes have a much better cooperation going on...
Originally posted by Sinker
Alas, I must confess that I do believe that fire is the superior of the elements and that water is one of the weaker.
The only sodding birks that would chose water to accomplish there ends are the sodding Ashers. Giving the Doomguard a bad name they are. If only the assault on the Crumbling Citadel had finished them.
Hah! Typical ignorance of the true power of water. Burn down a city, and it will be rebuilt in a year. Erode away the land beneath the city with the lapping of waves, and it can never be rebuilt!
Originally posted by Sword of Geddon
That may be true of the Elemental Planes, since its basically all just, well, stuff, but the Outer is a different story, Good is diffenitely better than Evil, don't let fiends like Shemeska or those blasted Rilmani(Who are the ones currently in charge of the Multiverse) tell you otherwise.
I assume you mean that Good is better than Evil because it produces such warm and fuzzy feelings. Pike that. I've heard a lot of screed about how Evil destroys itself ultimately because of some fundamental flaw in it's nature. Last time I checked all seven Lower Planes were still around after countless millenia and the Abyss is bigger than any good-aligned plane. True the Abyss is just a cistern of jibbering violence, but Baator is a heavily policed and strict realm that has more layers than the Mount. Don't get me wrong, I never trust fiendish bashers farther than I can throw them (which works since the most twisted of fiends are usually sodding big berks), but don't try and tell me that they're inherently inferior than any do-gooding celestials.
And here's a little riddle for you to counter: If there weren't any evil deeds, if everyone were the pinnacle of goodliness, then there wouldn't be any such thing as Good, it'd just be Normal. So the only reason Good exists is because of the Evil that is out there providing a contrast. Therefore Evil is strongly arguably the source of Good.
So burn it down.
Before I killed her, the Gold Dragon asked me...Why?
I had never once questioned my actions, in all my 1000+ years of existence, but nevertheless, this question nagged at my subconscious for eions.
I began observing other evil Dragons, as well as Good, and I discovered one important thing: It was far more easy to fall into evil, than to rise from it.
Naturally, this discovery was quite a shocker. I had always assumed that Goodness was for weaklings who couldn't fight for themselves. But rather, it was the other way around.
Evil's nature is centered around the self, and its desires. A sentient being naturally wants to cator to its own pleasures and ambitions, therefore, evil has a strong hold on him or her.
(True)Good, on the other hand, respects a sentient's free will, where evil seeks only to control.
Being alone, and giving in to one's desires, did not make one strong, rather, it made one weak. This is why there are more fiends than than are Celestials.
My second big discovery occured when I delved into the history of the Multiverse, primarily from a (VERY) ancient collection of writtings known simply as the Ysrhoia(Its in a Pre-Planar Common tongue, I was only able to translate it there magic).
In the beginning, it seemed, there was only the Prime, the Inner, the Ethereal, the Astral, and the Spirit World.
It was a pure Multiverse, without malice, until the strangers arrived in this multiverse from another, and began spreading the poison that was evil. Since the Multiverse of that era had no need for warriors, since evil did not exist amongst the populace, the strangers found many victims. The pain caused by the loses of this dark period caused many to believe that going down the dark path was easier, and so the contagion began to spread. Those that had lost loved ones who had before secretly enjoyed inflicting pain in others, but held their desires in check because of their families, now gave up trying to resist their sadistic desires, and became the Baern.
So therefore, the Spirit World split in two, and a new Plane was born, the World of Darkness.
Now in normal Spirit world, the populace was split into four factions.
One group, thought by creating laws and enforcing them, would scare the remaining populace into not giving in and becoming fiends. Gradually, these beings lost all compassion and love for their fellows, until only law remained, and the modrons were born.
The second group, seemed to believe the opposite, that having no laws or order of anykind, and indeed, no rules, would prevent more from sliding into darkness. Gradually, these beings began to lose all concern for others, and would have became fiends, if it weren't for their unpredictable natures, thus, the Slaad came into existence.
The Third group, struggled to hold unto their ideals and old ways, combat the growing threat of fiends, and managed to hold unto their original forms. Thus, in order to establish an identity to their own, began calling themselves the Aasimon(These ancient Aasimon are not quite the same as the ones known today, imagine a cross between the Guardinals, Eladrin, and Archons, in appearence and in behavior).
The Fourth and final group, desired only to be left alone, thinking that if they ignored the rest of the Multiverse, everything would revert to the way it was before.
Thus, the Kameral came into existence.
Sprit World was torn apart once again. Thus the Planes now known as Mechanus, Limbo, and the Outlands came into being, while what was left became Elysium.
Eventually some of the Aasimon and Baern's views changed, becoming tainted by either Law or Chaos, and thus the Archons, Eladrins, Oni(The Ancient Baatorians) and Zilasi(The ancient Abyssians) were born, along with Mt.Celestia, Arborea, The Abyss, and Baator.
Conclusion: Evil is a virus infecting the Multiverse, a contagion which arrived on the Outer Planes, spread to the Prime, and finally, the Inner Planes.
This is why I turned away from evil and the ways of the Tiamat, and seek to serve Good.
Good enough?
Who would win you ask?
Well lets first examine each side's strengths and vernerabilities.
Evil
Strengths:
1. The nearly infinite amount of fiends
Weaknesses:
1. Ambition(And all intelligent fiends have it) trumps cooperation when the chance presents itself, especially amonst Tanar' ri, thus, a totally unified army is impossible
Good
Weaknesses:
1. Very few Celestials exist when compared to their Fiendish Counterparts
2. Not as Warlike(The Celestials don't fight 24/7 like the fiends do)
Strengths:
1. Near Godlike Power: Many Celestials, such as Leonar, and especially Solars, have strength nearly to match Gods
2. Allies: The Celestials have many allies amonst mortals, as well as other races, such as Elfs and Dwarves.
3. The power of the Upper Planes: Envirimental conditions such as Elysium's "Cant move anywhere if your evil" would make an invasion of that Plane impossible, while climbing the layers of Mt. Celestia would be impossible.
4. Divine Allys: Unlike the fiends, the Gods of the Upper Planes are FAR more willing to cooperate. Many Celestials, such as Aasimon, are servants of the Gods. An invasion of the Upper Planes would be a crisis to which all Upper Planar powers would put aside their differences and unite, adding their divine might to the Celestial's war effort.
5. Cooperation: There exists no great hatred between the Upper Planar races. Although Archons and Eladrin probably don't see eye-to-eye all the time, in their heart of hearts, each respects the other, and would diffenitely ally against the common foe that is Evil.
Opinions?
You mention Leonals and Solars as an example. Yes, a Solar is more powerful than an average Balor or Pit Fiend (unless this has changed in 3.5). Solars are some of the most powerful non divine beings out there.
However I'd have to bet against a Solar if I picked for example on the side of the fiends, either a single mature Ancient Baatorian, or a single Baernaloth. The Maeldur Et Kavurik was a Solar, Daru Ib Shamiq was a Baern, and well, we all know how that one went. The Maeldur was corrupted and fell from grace, and the Baern still lives.
Of course many of the elder fiends such as the Baerns and the Baatorians have faded from existance or simply withdrawn. It's an open question of if they're reduced in number for good, or just 'waiting'.
And there's a reason why the deities don't get involved in the Blood War against the fiends on the behalf of the Celestials (or the evil powers get involved for the fiends too). When they did they began to hemmorage their own divine power. Somehow their power began to diminish and so fearing for their own wellbeing the powers have studiously stayed absent from the conflict themselves. Self preservation rules the day even for the selfless powers of the upper planes.
Lets do this in one easy logical statement: if the upper planes could take on the lower planes then why do they try to continue the blood war/why do they allow the fiends to exist?
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
2. Allies: The Celestials have many allies amonst mortals, as well as other races, such as Elfs and Dwarves.
While the Celestials my have many willing allies, this does not mean that the fiends couldn't force many lesser evil races to fight such a war. Imagine if the Baatezu taped the armies of Acheron, if at all possible.
While the Celestials are more organised and willing to cooperate with one another, imagine an infinite army of evil.
But what about the Inner Planes?
I do have to say that my money does have to go to good in an infinitely long war though. Most of the Upper Planes would be overrun with fiends, but the Celestial Mount and the Elysian Fields hold their own power to keep the fiends at bay. These would provide a stronghold against evil. Evil can keep it's assault up indefinitely, but ultimately the odds of it completely exterminating good are 0. The odds of good ultimately extinguishing evil in a single go approach 1 to infinity against. Give it an it an infinite number of tries though, and you'll see.
In the long run, though, it doesn't matter. If you uterly anilihated every single fiend or celestial, the ideas of good and evil would still exist on the prime and new nightmares and paragons would arise.
Doesn't matter either way to me. I'll sell to anyone. Except the treacherous Dao. They can go shopping at A'kin's.
Originally posted by Bob the Efreet
Doesn't matter either way to me. I'll sell to anyone. Except the treacherous Dao. They can go shopping at A'kin's.
Which, to return to the original topic of this thread, is why the Elemental Planes won't be pushed around or goaded into silly philosophical wars. If you ask me, Geddon, the celestials are pretty warlike and go on killing sprees often enough. The difference is that celestial rampages are called "crusades" and everyone thinks they're righteous. They're self-serving (preserving the ideals of the self-appointed keepers of what's right) and unnecessary.
Originally posted by Incenjucar
Without fire, water is ice, and ice is merely earth that floats. Fire is warmth and movement; without fire, water could not splash to choke the air from the flames. Fire, too, is what gives water to the mercy of air, and thus grants rain upon the worlds. Indeed, take a sheet of metal, and bring it to great heat. Drip water on to it's surface, and see how water fears fire.
Once again, you are confusing real world physics for those of D&D. In D&D Water is water because of positive energy, not heat. Fire is not enrgy in D&D it is an element, you are giving fire the qualities of the positive material, and if you do that it's obviously going to appear more powerful than any other single plane.
1) Notice the quotes? In-Character commentary.
2) The positive has no known effect on any of the elemental planes, aside from how it keeps the quasi-plane functioning. Water becomes ice via contact with AIR, in classical D&D cosmology. It's basically 'wind chill factor'. And water still becomes cold in D&D, and turns to ice as a result.
Originally posted by Mephit James
Which, to return to the original topic of this thread, is why the Elemental Planes won't be pushed around or goaded into silly philosophical wars. If you ask me, Geddon, the celestials are pretty warlike and go on killing sprees often enough. The difference is that celestial rampages are called "crusades" and everyone thinks they're righteous. They're self-serving (preserving the ideals of the self-appointed keepers of what's right) and unnecessary.
Try as I might to include all the facts, I overlooked that, and I apologize. I sometimes forget things that Ursinal taught me when I first arrived on the Planes..
Of coarse, it can be argued that many of the celestials in power are not the Paragons of virtue they claim to be. For instance, whats so rightious about going to war over a small difference in opinion(The occasionally upper-planar "holy" war, fought between two different powers) Example: Power A believes that law and order, period, combined with benign rulership is the way to go, while Power B disagrees, and believes that laws pervert and retrict people, leading them to acts of evil.) On the Upper Planes, this differently leds to conflict. The underlying argument behind both has its roots in good intentions, and therefore, both Powers have a basis for discussion. A truely good power wouldn't go to war with another good power, period, unless one or the other Powers is question are good in name only.
Now you bring up an interesting point Shemeska. In a fight, a Solar would probably crush a Baernoloth without breaking a sweat(It could simply produce an arrow of Baern-Slaying and be done with it). However, that Baern managed to corrupt the Solar(It happens). Some wonder why this occurs. Its because Celestials, like fiends, also have free will. Thats the most important point. True good respects a cutter's free will, while Evil seeks only to dominate and please itself
And, as I said before since Neutrality(And Conflict) is in charge of the Multiverse, all victories will ultimately be equalized, just ask Center of All.
Now onto the subject at hand...
What many cutters don't realize is that the Inner Planes are just as in conflict as the Outer.
Fire Vs. Water(And Ice)
Water Vs. Salt
Earth Vs. Air
Air Vs. Vacuum
Earth Vs. Dust
Fire Vs. Ash
As such, a united inner planes is unlikely to say the least.
As far as Fire being the strongest element, it has its points(But alas Injenjuar, I fear your bias, being a FIRE elemental). But I'd say the strongest of all Elements, is either Radiance or Vacuum.
*Polars: My homebrew concept, essentially elemental outsiders with a connection to one of the four elemental planes, and BOTH of the energy planes, resulting in a humanoid with elemental powers, on the level of exemplars. Developed from the idea that spawned this thread.
Hmmm, but aren't genies pretty much what you described above?
@sildatorak: Where are you obtaining these "odds" that you're speaking of. Seems to me like you're merely making them up. Why should they be able to hold off evil? You're saying a lot here but not giving any arguments.
http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=717
It is a common theme in literature and religion that Good always triumphs over Evil in the end, why wouldn't this theme not apply to Planescape? After all, a game of D&D is about heroes doing heroic deeds, vanquishing evil, and getting treasure. A Planescape game is only ALOT larger, more intelligent, and more surreal.
Monte Cook, in his fantastic work, "Planewalker's Handbook" pretty much summed this all in his book when he said(In the Beliefs chapter) That beliefs for Good have a greater effect on the Multiverse at large.
So, yes, although it really depends on the DM(Or GM, whichever you prefer), Good would(or Could) triumph over Evil in the end, even in a Planescape Game.
In fact, the last Planescape Campaign session I ran(WAY back in 1998, it was my way of ending the campaign, since my players wanted to go back to a more "standard" game of D&D, err, AD&D), which took place after I ran Great Modron March, Well of Worlds, Dead Gods, and a host of other adventures of my creation, involved the PCs retrieving an artifact which in the end, sealed the Lower Planes off from the rest of the Multiverse forever, but not before sending out a planar wave which traveled thereout the multiverse, destroying or purifying all evil threwout the Planes.
It is a common theme in literature and religion that Good always triumphs over Evil in the end, why wouldn't this theme not apply to Planescape? After all, a game of D&D is about heroes doing heroic deeds, vanquishing evil, and getting treasure. A Planescape game is only ALOT larger, more intelligent, and more surreal.
I think I just found your problem. Planescape is not about good heros vanquishing evil any more than it is about evil heros vanquishing good. It's not about either. Planescape is about conflicting ideas personified and acting on the behalf of the advancement of said ideas. It's philosophy made manifest. The whole setting is nothing more than a giant metaphor for philisophical debate. The setting has (ideologically) nothing to do with getting treasure or merely vanquishing evil, good, or any other specific idea. It is however, about belief. Regardless of what that belief happens to be. If there's any setting where the D&D alignment concept really stops working, it's planescape. In planescape, good and evil are nothing more than philisophically meaningless descriptions.
The fact that evil happens to be fundamentally powerful in war says only that war is more strongly evil than it is good. Note that the hypothetical question is inherently slanted towards evil, and thus the answer is that evil would win. Good is more likely to win if war, and other similarly evil acts, are wiped from the question, just as evil is most likely to win if you phrase the question in terms of an inherenly evil-style conflict.
One of Planescape's themes is belief, but the same holds true that Planescape is about the exploration of new and exciting things, the unknown, and the battle for the souls of mortals between Good and Evil.
Its much more epic, much larger, and much grander than any Prime setting, thats what I fell in love with about Planescape, if you see things differently than I do, thats fine, your entitled to your opinion, but frankly, if thats how you run your game, we clearly haven't been playing the same Planescape(which is fine).
I have enjoyed this debate and hope that all others that partipated enjoyed it as well.
I think we have been playing the same planescape, (it's an infinite universe, after all) just from different angles.
In answer to your question though, I don't much see the point of a game where there are clear heros and villains. I mean, your heros already generally know what they ought to do. They ought to do what's right and good, though figuring out what exactly that might be may be difficult. But they know what to do. I'm much more interested in a game where what's right is more a matter of personal perception. Essentially, everyone's a hero, vanquishing whatever the opposite of their ideas is. We've got no clear heros and villains in real life, after all. What's the point of that? A battle of ideas though, *that* interests me.
Originally posted by SnazyKoolKat
@sildatorak: Where are you obtaining these "odds" that you're speaking of. Seems to me like you're merely making them up. Why should they be able to hold off evil? You're saying a lot here but not giving any arguments.
The odds I'm getting are made up, but not without reason (I guess I just didn't explain enough).
The Upper Planes have a pair of strongholds that fiends cannot breach. The upper layers of Celestia would prevent the fiends from gaining access unless they reformed, which would require them to abbandon their vision of destroying good. (hehe: "Abbandon All Hate Ye Who Enter Here") The Traveler's Travail in Elysium makes it impossible for evil folk to get where they are going, while making Travel an easy matter for good aligned beings. Evil lacks strongholds of this sort.
This means that evil can never completely eliminate good because these places so strongly resist its presence. (prob of evil elimintating good=0)
A sickly level 0 commoner with a stick that has been sufficiently enchanted could theoretically kill all the fiends (assuming there is a finite number, which is arguable for the Tanar'ri) barring time constraints. To put it in game mechanics (yuck!) he would have roughly a .05^(y) chance of doing it, where y is the number of times he is attacked. (odds approaching 1/infinity). Now let's say your commoner can only be permanently slain on his home plane, which is one of those places the fiends can't reach. He now has an infinite number of tries to do this, so at least once he will get lucky and slay every fiend in existence (ultimate probability of success=1).
The real situation is much more complex since you have new fiends being created from larva, new larva springing from the evil dead, and a similar thing going on with good aligned petitioners. A war between all fiends and all celestials is no more likely than a war that pits the slaad, tanar'ri, and eladrin against the lawful exemplars. You know, the baatezu, archons, and formians
I think the word you're looking for, mrgoat, is "champion."
Hero, champion, same thing, different viewpoint.
Originally posted by Sildatorak
You know, the baatezu, archons, and formians
*COUGH!*
As for your line about Heroes and Villains Mr.Goat, I disagree.
There are plenty of examples of "Heros" and "Villains" thereout history and even today. Heros like King Lladimir of Kiev, and Villains like Adolf Hitler. Just because "clearcut" Heroes and villains are rare, doesn't mean they don't exist, they are just rare and don't occur very often.
We seem to disagree alot on some issues, which is fine, individuality is what being human is all about, and its what Planescape is about as well. Just because our opinions are different doesn't mean we aren't both nice people.
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Originally posted by mrgoat
In answer to your question though, I don't much see the point of a game where there are clear heros and villains. I mean, your heros already generally know what they ought to do. They ought to do what's right and good, though figuring out what exactly that might be may be difficult. But they know what to do. I'm much more interested in a game where what's right is more a matter of personal perception. Essentially, everyone's a hero, vanquishing whatever the opposite of their ideas is. We've got no clear heros and villains in real life, after all. What's the point of that? A battle of ideas though, *that* interests me.
Originally posted by Mephit James
All the PCs in games that I've played in are fervent followers of one ideology or another, and they're adventuring champions of their causes.
That is Planescape in a nutshell. There will always be hero's and villains, but who they are depends on ones beliefs.
Take the Doomguard for instance. My glorious faction has currently splintered into four groups; the Doomguard of Ash, the Doomguard of Salt, the Doomguard of Vacuum and the Doomguard of Dust. The sodding Ashers are trying the decrease entropy’s advance, we Salties are increase it’s embrace, the Voids are trying to balance it out, and the Dusters have piked it all and are internalizing entropy’s destruction. Our old factol, Pentar, and Ely Cromlich clearly supported the beliefs of as Salties, thus they where our hero’s and leaders. But to the sodding Doomguard of Ash, they both would be near villains, bringing the faction into disrepute.
It all depends on your perspective, and it is perspectives and ideologies that drives Planescape.
Originally posted by mrgoat
Hitler was considered a hero by many who followed him. Even if alignment in D&D is absolute, the status of any being as a "hero" exists only in the minds of those who consider them a hero. It's an opinion, ergo, it's relative to the observer. My points stand.
Yeah, Hitler was arguably LN, same for Mussolini. Their actions put them firmly into our perception of Evil, but NOT the D&D perception of Evil which is self-serving, while they were trying to help their countries. I think that is the sort of Moral conflict that Planescape tries to emulate.
I mean, unless you're highly cynical, do you really think most primes are vicious and evil enough to condemned to one of the evil planes? Aren't most races basically good, and wouldnt that reflect on the petitioner ratios for the upper and lower planes respectively? Though I may be mistaken -- asides from Archons, I dont remember any other Upper Planar race being formed out of the souls of primes, though I'd love for clarification.
Granted, the Abyss has a near infinite number of baddies (do more people really end up living their mortal lives as Chaotic Evil?), but still...most of 'em are lousy dretches and manes anyway!
I think the Upper Planes would be able to hold it's own in the case of a massive multiplanar war b/t Good and Evil. Though the Guardinals, if fairly powerful, are few in number (and I don't get the feeling that the planes are really sprawling with Archons either), I believe Good makes up for it with the presence of the Aasimon, who dont really seem to have a lower-planar counterpart.
Neutrality: Guardinal-->Yugoloth; Law: Baatezu-->Archon; Chaos: Eladrin-->Tanar'ri.
The only exemplars I can think to possibly compliment the Aasimon are the Gehreleths, but even when their numbers swell three fold, I doubt they really pose a threat. The lower planes have no Uber-Exemplar race which can take on any evil alignment as the Aasimon can for good, do they. (Do they? Are there dark-Aasimon? Tiefimon?)
So the Upper Planes benefit from their exclusive rights to a massively powerful (the most powerful?) race of exemplars. I imagine if even three or four Solars got together, they could decimate most armies, even without their patron deity's help.
Also, a Tulani could easily waste any given Pit Fiend, Balor, or Ultraloth, at least in 2e. Eladrin rock!
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Its good at least, to know that I have allies on this board, thankyou Sildatorak!
Of coarse, since this IS supposed to be an Inner Planar thread, I'll ask this question: Who would win if a hypothetical Inner Planar-Outer Planar war were to occur?
And to answer your question Sir Cleve, I don't believe there are any Lower Planar versions of Aasimon, asside from the Fallen Aasimon which have appeared in various computer games(like Baldur's Gate 2) and web sites(Ashy's Creature Codex).
An evil version of Aasimon would most likely have to be created from scratch, if the DM in question wished to include such beings in his or her game.
There's also that little issue of the fiends having their own legendary progenitor races that would return to take part in the conflict. Specifically the Ancient Baatorians and the Baernaloths, assuming one could get the Baatorian slug-men to fight on any side but their own (being nearly wiped out by the Baatezu can't bode well for later good neighborly feelings). The celestials don't have any known species of their own that would correspond to these. (And boy is that a place you could expand upon there...)
And as always, the Baern would do exactly what they always have done, fight for themselves without regards to the wellfare of their children or those they control. One of them alone would have a massive impact simply in terms of moral and knowledge dredged from the infernal mind of the beasts. They're the perfect manipulators and creators; intelligence and vision without the hesitation or pause of morality and ethics.
And back on topic here, an inner planar versus outer planar war would all depend on where it was fought. Either side would win on their own respective plane. The Astral would likely see both sides lose majorly (if the Guardian became involved to protect its dead charges), the ethereal would be a tossup in my mind.
Upper Planar progenitor races? Now that IS an interesting idea..That should theoritically exist, since their lower planar counterparts most assuringly do.
I actually have an interesting theory regarding the ancient Abyssians Shemi. I think that the Ancient Abyssians(like the Baatorians, their names are lost to time) were creatures similiar to Beholders, and that the Beholder Great Mother is the last remaining member of her kind(or is she?) Check out I, Tyrant's information regarding the Great Mother's way of thinking and behaviour, and I't will all make sense.
Unlike Planescape, where there may or may not be moral absolutes, real life DOES have such distinctions. Killing Six million jews, is EVIL no matter if his followers were blind enough to think their leader was a "hero". I almost lost a GREAT-UNCLE because of the stinking Nazis! And your trying to tell me Hitler and the Nazis were'nt evil? And that its just one's perspective? BULL!
Woah, simmer down there Godwin. I never said anything about Hitler not being evil. I said that some of the people who served under him considered him a Hero. Being a hero doesn't mean you're good. Being a hero doesn't have to have anything to do with being good. That was the whole frikkin' point of my post. Try reading sometime, it's handy when you want to find out what someone wrote. Here, let's look at this:
he·ro ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hîr)
n. pl. he·roes
1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.
2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.
3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.
4. The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.
5. Chiefly New York City. See submarine. See Regional Note at submarine.
Only one possible definition of hero says anything remotely related to good. The second one: where it states nobility of purpose. Even then, to satisfy that definition, they could merely be extremely courageous OR (as in, one OR the other, OR possiblY both) noble in purpose, which is also a relative idea. That's the closest you get to having "good" related to being a "hero". Incidentally, the farthest you get is definition 5, which refers to a kind of sandwitch.
Also, real life DOESN'T (see, I can use the caps lock key too, and it's just as persuasive) have such distinctions because there's no ultimate arbiter of morality outside of human opinion, which is by it's very nature, relative. The fact that you and I think Hitler was one evil sunova
is irrelevant. Someone, somewhere, thought he was endowed with great courage and strength, favored by the gods, OR couragous, OR noble of purpose, OR achieved something special in some field, OR was the principle character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation, OR a kind of sandwitch. Thus he is a hero. The fact that you almost lost a great uncle to the nazis, and that he killed 6 million jews, has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with his status as a hero. In my opinion, and the opinion of most people in the world, that makes him EVIL. One can be BOTH EVIL AND A HERO. Am I, and the dictionary, getting through yet?If you want to argue with the dictionary, you're welcome to take that up with someone who is not me. Until then, when you want to argue semantics and lose, I'll be here.
And now for something on topic:
I think that an outer/inner war would have to be waged on the Prime for sake of being a neutral battleground. I don't have any idea who would win, but the people who would lose are the natives of any sphere where these battles are fought.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
I agree with Sildatorak wholeheartidily on this one. I am also begining to find your views on morality a bit disturbing. You must realize that Planescape and real life are NOT the same. Unlike Planescape, where there may or may not be moral absolutes, real life DOES have such distinctions. Killing Six million jews, is EVIL no matter if his followers were blind enough to think their leader was a "hero". I almost lost a GREAT-UNCLE because of the stinking Nazis! And your trying to tell me Hitler and the Nazis were'nt evil? And that its just one's perspective? BULL!
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Its good at least, to know that I have allies on this board, thankyou Sildatorak!
That's my point. You can't apply D&D alignment to real life, because if you do Hitler comes out Lawful Neutral! Which is wrin wrongwrong wrong wrong. Hitler was one of, if not the most, evil men in history, yet he comes out LAwful neutral. That's why you can't apply D&D alignments to rea life. I'm not trying to say Hitler wasn'tan evil person, and I'm sorry if it came out that way. What I was trying to point out is that Hitler IS (was?) evil and hence the alignment system is flawed because of its definition of evil (which does not include the typical motivation of people considered evil in the real-world - they were misguided, insane, irrational, etc. Self-centeredness is only one facet of this but the one D&D seem to have piked up on).
Also evil as a side does not exist in the real world, but it does exist in terms of what seems evil too us. Most people don't try and create evil or misery, which I think is what people mean when they say evil doesn't really exist . In a very real sense however, there is such a thing as evil, although ammoral might be closer to the truth, it's obviosly nt strong enough.
In any case, back on topic: Shouldn't the inner-outer planar war take place on the Prime, that would make the most sense, since it's a middle ground. The astral/ether do not connect ot both individually.
2) The prime is too 'vague' a battleground, is the thing. While it would be easier for the Inner Planar beings to pour out from prime Volcanoes and such, than finding portals, there's untold numbers of prime worlds, and primes are usually more interested in the afterlife than in the purity of the material part of the universe. Also, keep in mind, nobody really considers the inner planes a 'threat'. Hostile if you go there, but unlike Primes and Outer Planars, Elementals and such aren't exactly known for forming armies and causing havoc. Which gives them all the better reason to seek out a few ways to get to the Outlands, and aim for whichever plane is currently causing them the most trouble.
*tries to envision a polar trying to talk someone at a gate town in to letting him drag along his elemental buddies*
They'd probably use that unknown lifespan to go it on foot, all things considered.
Originally posted by leopardmessiah
the alignment system is flawed because of its definition of evil
snip
Self-centeredness is only one facet of this but the one D&D seem to have piked up on).
Actually evil in D&D is defined by lack of regard for the lives and quality thereof of intelligent beings.
From the SRD
“Evil” implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
That should clear that up, and now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
I think that the war would go on forever unless somebody decided that it was pretty silly. The Outer Planes are so philosophy driven that they wouldn't have any motivation to fight unless their home planes (or allied planes) were being destroyed.
1) Trying to convince the outsiders and primes that they don't want them cluttering up the purity of the inner planes. There's a LOT of structures there that no elemental has any use for, on their native turf.
2) Trying to spread the elements to make the multiverse more elemental in nature, rather than spiritual. This is the least likely, because it requires the elementals to care about that which is not element.
3) Trying to 'reclaim reality', which is basically an end of days scenerio, or, perhaps, what prevents it.
#1 is the one I consider most likely, since it's basically a strange form of "Indian Wars", that is, native peoples (elementals) hunting down the invaders (non-elementals) who are corrupting their land with buildings and ideas.
That's my point. You can't apply D&D alignment to real life, because if you do Hitler comes out Lawful Neutral! Which is wrin wrongwrong wrong wrong. Hitler was one of, if not the most, evil men in history, yet he comes out LAwful neutral.
You can't apply D&D alignment to real life because real life doesn't have alignment. All it has is the subjective opinion of people. Outside of human opinion, there are no such ideas as "good" or "evil".
Let's step this back from personal before the mods get involved.
Yeah, mods suck. Punk is where it's at.
Thankfully, the inner planes don't bother with alignment, they just want you out of their turf.
I think you'll find that people's perceptions are both irreleviant and incorrect 1/2 the time. Good and Evil, transcend what people think or feel is "Good" or "Evil", they simply are..
But its dangerious to assume they do not exist.
You mentioned earlier that because there is no arbiter, there can be no diffinite "Good" or "Evil". Without a judge, there can be no judgement so to speak.
Imagine a world in which people do whatever they want(****, Murder, Random Destruction) because nothing is considered wrong. Nobody bothers to help out someone else in need, or raise their children(Leaving them to survive on their own, and likely die), because nothing is consider right.
Is that the world you would like to live in? I know I wouldn't..
Geez, are we getting deep here!
PS. Anyone have any homebrewed(from your own campaigns that is) Demiplanes I could add to the Demiplane list I'm assembling?
I'm not angry at you Mr.Goat, and I understand what you are trying to say: The "Hero" is merely a matter of opinion, which is true, to a certain degree. A true heroe, therefore, would be someone who acts on behalf of Good, but not People's perception of good. Confused?
Sorry, I'm not angry with you either. I just tend to sound pretty caustic sometimes. (You should see how I act on boards where I *don't* like the people.
) Anyway, being a hero is a matter of perception. That's how it's defined. There is no good but what people believe is good. What is good in a society is defined by what most of that society believes. I'm not confused, I'm just trying to get through to you that there isn't, and needn't be, any good beyond people's perception of good. Good is an idea. It's only in the mind. There's no evidence for a universal good, and there's no need for a universal good, and there's no enforcement of a universal good. If there is a universal good, it's moot at best, so really not worth worrying about.I think you'll find that people's perceptions are both irreleviant and incorrect 1/2 the time. Good and Evil, transcend what people think or feel is "Good" or "Evil", they simply are..
People's perceptions on what is good and evil cannot be wrong. They can merely be different from what others think. They also cannot be irrelevant, because they guide the actions of that individual.
But its dangerious to assume they do not exist.
Yeah, they exist only as opinions or ideas.
You mentioned earlier that because there is no arbiter, there can be no diffinite "Good" or "Evil". Without a judge, there can be no judgement so to speak.
Right. The arbiter is the person (or in the case of a society, persons) who hold the general majority opinion on what is good or evil. There is judgement, but there's no judgement, and there need be no judgement, beyond human judgement. Our species has proved itself pretty capable of taking care of itself.
Imagine a world in which people do whatever they want(****, Murder, Random Destruction) because nothing is considered wrong. Nobody bothers to help out someone else in need, or raise their children(Leaving them to survive on their own, and likely die), because nothing is consider right.
The society we have today became what it is through people doing whatever they want. I kinda like it, actually. People consider certain things wrong for certain reasons, and act accordingly. Do you honestly think that people are not capable of deciding for themselves what is right and wrong? That's dangerous. People like that get locked up, and for good reason. You're essentially saying that without something external telling you what's right and wrong, you'd go out and **** and murder like it was going out of style. I assume that's not the argument you want to make, since you seem like a pretty sane person. You are however, making one of the classic mistakes in arguing morality, one that most organized religions have been making for thousands of years: Assuming that we humans can't decide what's right and wrong for ourselves. We can, we have been, we currently do, and it seems to work pretty well for the most part. I'm scared of people that need something else to tell them what's good and evil. They're messed up. If you're not capable of deciding for yourself that **** and genocide are not good, and you need someone else to decide that for you, I want you locked away real tight.
The trouble is, only severly intellectually stunted people do what's right because someone else tells them it's right.
Geez, are we getting deep here!
Not really. I've seen (and been in) forms of this argument going on for years, and it's even got it's own little place in modern developmental psychology. (There's a point on the maturity ladder where people stop considering what others think is right, and choose to decide for themselves.) It's always a fun little argument to have though, especially considering I'm the one on the side that empirically has been shown to be bulletproof. Smarter people than me have done this one so solid it's amazing. (Like, say, Bertrand Russel)
The only counter-arguments that ever even sort of succeed are religious ones, which really don't fly for other reasons, and the person making them tends to leave in a huff. Just wait 'till someone starts comparing God to magic pink unicorns in the sky! Then it really gets flamaliciously fun. Eventually, threats about punching other people in the face are thrown, the audience bursts into laughter, someone gets modded down, and the admins can't stop laughing long enough to delete all our accounts.
2) While I do love this kind of discussion (as anyone who is aware of the IPU's origin can guess), it's better for another topic, prefferably on the mature boards, considering where it tends to lead; though it's dangerously close to not having anything to do with D&D... (We really do need a "Mature Off-Topic Board", or an unofficial one of the sort so the admin can't get in trouble...)
3) Does anyone else have any insights in regards to the topic? Perhaps how those new elemental turning abilities might come in to play?
Originally posted by mrgoat
People's perceptions on what is good and evil cannot be wrong. They can merely be different from what others think. They also cannot be irrelevant, because they guide the actions of that individual.
[snip]
Right. The arbiter is the person (or in the case of a society, persons) who hold the general majority opinion on what is good or evil. There is judgement, but there's no judgement, and there need be no judgement, beyond human judgement. Our species has proved itself pretty capable of taking care of itself.
[snip]
It's always a fun little argument to have though, especially considering I'm the one on the side that empirically has been shown to be bulletproof. Smarter people than me have done this one so solid it's amazing. (Like, say, Bertrand Russel)
The only counter-arguments that ever even sort of succeed are religious ones, which really don't fly for other reasons, and the person making them tends to leave in a huff.
The cultural relativist point is a fairly good one, but you are failing to consider a couple of things. Though it isn't bulletproof, it is better than absolutism from a logical standpoint.
Declaring that society is the arbitrator of morality has several big problems. If any given society can declare what is right and what is wrong, what defines the society? One million people? One hundred? Two? One? Without making universal arbitrary distinctions you can't decide whether each person can make up his or her own mind about what is right for his or her self.
Tolerance is also a problem. Declaring that any society can decide what is right for itself means that it must accept that it cannot declare what is right for another society. What if it wants an ethic of xenophobia and intollerance of foreign ways, including labling them immoral and worthy of death? Cultural relativity says "Nope, sorry, can't do that one, you're in the moral wrong there," and that is contradictory to the very concept of relativism in the first place.
Before I quit sounding like a philosophy 101 paper, I'd just like to say that objectivism rocks! (some morality is culturally/individually determined, some is objectively true)
If the Chaotic Exemplars weren't such crummy examples of independence and freedom then I'd draw a Planescape analogy here, but that just doesn't work.
Originally posted by Incenjucar
The prime is too 'vague' a battleground, is the thing. While it would be easier for the Inner Planar beings to pour out from prime Volcanoes and such, than finding portals, there's untold numbers of prime worlds, and primes are usually more interested in the afterlife than in the purity of the material part of the universe.
Point. While the Prime appeals because of it's positioning, I guess it's not really a suitable battleground. What is interesting though, if you take the idea of the elementals trying to rid their planes of "outsiders" as it is described in this thread, is the way that so far the genasai seem to be a major driving force behind it. Might that produce an interesting topic as the genasai despise their own "impure" existance (similar to the wizards supporting the destuction of magic in Sword of Truth, although I need a better example)
Perhaps the 'elemental exemplars' or whatnot could be trying to... breed fleshy things out of existance in some locals so as to gain numbers and insight in to fleshy minds...
One could easily make an elemental conversion PrC for genasi, as is done with those wanting to be half-dragons..
Declaring that society is the arbitrator of morality has several big problems. If any given society can declare what is right and what is wrong, what defines the society? One million people? One hundred? Two? One? Without making universal arbitrary distinctions you can't decide whether each person can make up his or her own mind about what is right for his or her self.
Tolerance is also a problem. Declaring that any society can decide what is right for itself means that it must accept that it cannot declare what is right for another society. What if it wants an ethic of xenophobia and intollerance of foreign ways, including labling them immoral and worthy of death? Cultural relativity says "Nope, sorry, can't do that one, you're in the moral wrong there," and that is contradictory to the very concept of relativism in the first place.
The "society" in this case is whatever group of people you're talking about. The most common one is a particular country, which is a part of a world society. It scales right down to small groups of friends. Enforcement is another matter, so long as the ones doing the enforcing aren't fooling themselves into thinking they're doing any more than enforcing what they think is right. That's essentially why we have wars: two conflicting views come into contact, and one tries to assert itself over the other. That's one of the main things the world does: fights for various views with various means. Despite the current power structure in America (which I'd say is a local minima on the fitness landscape), the world tends towards what I would say is a better state.
I am a religious person(A Christian actually). While I disagree with you, at least your a Good Atheist(unlike some people I have known in the past)
I hope that wasn't meant to be as patronising as it sounds.
2) While I do love this kind of discussion (as anyone who is aware of the IPU's origin can guess), it's better for another topic, prefferably on the mature boards, considering where it tends to lead; though it's dangerously close to not having anything to do with D&D... (We really do need a "Mature Off-Topic Board", or an unofficial one of the sort so the admin can't get in trouble...)
The mature boards tend to host the most immature people and topics I've ever seen. Funny how they do the exact opposite of what their name would imply. I say: To Scoop! These discussions sorely need threaded comments and less obtrusive moderation. These tangents are the natural consequence of discussion after all, and the boards as a whole suffer by supressing them.
Originally posted by Sinker
Incenjucar, what is the general view of the Inner Planes inhabitance concerning mortals that worship the elements. Are they indifferent towards the reverance or do some of them take a more active involvment; either hatred, curiosity, respect?
Bear in mind that those who inhabit the inner planes are many. Basic groups include we elemental exemplars*, the true elementals, elemental creatures, elementally-infused beings, the naturalized non-natives, such as the 'genie' breeds, and the 'alien' non-natives that are, it seems, trying to -become- naturalized, such as humans and their ilk.
Most of our elemental kin are, simply, unaware, uninterested, or unconcerned, largely because many of them are without need of abstract thought to begin with. When they do encounter the fleshy beings, it usually ends with one of the parties destroyed. Those unlucky ones that learn of the ways of fleshy beings are usually captured, and forced in to slavery directly, or as energy sources for magical items or golems. I doubt I have to explain the view that results from this interraction.
However, some few elementals meet with mortals and, more notably, deific beings and their proxies, in less unpleasant ways, and even make alliances with them. Sometimes this leads to a direct relationship to a group, or to those of certain notions, sometimes curiosity buds... or merely a choice to try and help the decimated prime by helping those who care for nature... the end result is what is commonly called a "Summon Nature's Ally" spell.
In general, though, the elementals couldn't care less. Flesh is flesh.
We, the newly-arisen 'elemental exemplars', or whatever mortals decide to call us when our presence is more known, and the more intelligent and aware of the elementals, have more identifiable views.
While, of course, we are as individual as any fleshy being, the general opinion is that those mortals that revere the elements that we protect are -useful-, depending on how they practice this reverence. Some are quite agreeable, and aid us in the cleansing efforts, understanding that, as soon as the objective is complete, they will not be made exception of in the removal of fleshy beings from the inner planes. While we find worship a bit... odd.. respect is always an agreeable trait, and we appreciate cooperation on the part of those who understand how things are best left.
Unfortunately, most such is ruined by deities that have invaded the inner planes... divinity simply is not a natural part of the elemental planes. They are the most problematic of the invaders... but hopefully we will find a way to move them elsewhere without having to decimate untold numbers of their followers...