Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Oct 23, 2003 3:57:19	In this thread will be Spoilers, so be warned... So I'm now total interested in Minotaur wars. What's the sides? I know Minotaurs is attacking Silvanesti, but what happened? Is Neraka's knights helping them or not? Is Qualinesti caring about that at all? How about Kagonesti? And when Solamnia knights will get the info, that minotaurs have attacked Silvanesti, what they gonna do? I'm doing campaign of this, so little help would be nice.
#2 zombiegleemax Oct 23, 2003 8:37:16	the attack on silvanesti was in the war of souls trilogy. The Knights of Neraka, under Mina, attacked Silvanetsti, bringing down the sheild which had protected the elves from outsiders. then Mina took most of her Knights and headed towards Nightlund. The minotaurs took advantage of the heavily reduced defenders of the area and moved in a took Silvanesti from the Knights. this all happened when the Qualinesti were under the domination of the Dragon Overlord Beryl, and her final attempt to destroy Qualinost drove the Qualinesti elves out, forcing them into exile. The Knights of Solamnia feel that they have their own problems to deal with before they will help the elves. So now, Silvanesti is in the hands of the minotaurs, Qualinost was destroyed by the death of Beryl, the city now covered by the Lake of Death, the lands of the qualinesti are in the hands of the Knights of Neraka, both the qualineti and silvaneti elves (those who managed to escape) are in exile and sitting on the Plains of Dust (much to the unhappiness of the human plainsmen.) Those Kagonesti who were not invoved in either nation, are to busy surviving the permenant winter that is now Southern Ergoth and the domain of the Dragon Overlord, Frost.
#3 zombiegleemax Oct 23, 2003 9:25:46	Indded times are dark for the elves of Ansalon!!
#4 The_White_Sorcerer Oct 23, 2003 9:49:43	What he's trying to ask is: How do the minotaurs and the knights of Neraka in Silvanost react to each other? Do the knights of Solamnia know about the invasion? If so, how do they react?
#5 zombiegleemax Oct 23, 2003 11:46:16	well, for how the neraka knights and minos reacting, the neraka knights aren't too happy with it but they got other things on their minds. Sides, blode is rising up so... who knows what'll happen. As for solamnia knights, it's been proven time and time again that they don't care bout the elves.
#6 brimstone Oct 23, 2003 12:46:45	Well, for now, Hotak and Nephera are still in command of the Empire...although I can see desention coming between them. Night of Blood ended before the invasion...so we really don't have much insite into what happened. Although we do know that Kern and Blode have made a pact under a charismatic leader (whose name I forgot...and unfortunatley is not one of the Ogre Titans ). Anyway...the ogres have made an alliance with the Minotaurs. And as we can see from DoaVM the Minotaurs are definately not allied with the Dark Knights (since they kicked them out of Silvanesti). Interesting times.
#7 zombiegleemax Oct 23, 2003 13:35:00	In the Silvan Key adventure in the back of the DLCS the Dark Nights in Pashin are fleeing from the Minotaur invasion and aren't too happy about it. They actually attack the Herald when he suggests that the Minotaurs came to help the nights while telling the story of the War of Souls.
#8 zombiegleemax Oct 24, 2003 0:22:04	Why ogres made an alliance with minotaurs? So are you saying that Solamnia knights doesn't care happenings in Silvanesti? Neraka isn't happy, okay... This thing I know. Silvanesti and Qualinesti elves will be very pi**ed off...
#9 The_White_Sorcerer Oct 24, 2003 6:29:12	Originally posted by Craolin the wood elf Why ogres made an alliance with minotaurs? Fear, young padawan. Fear is the key to the actions of evil beings.
#10 Perun Oct 26, 2003 3:27:59	That's one thing that seems total weird to me... In that last book of the Mina trilogy (can't remember the name), the minotaurs actually sneak up on the kirath (that's what the scouts are called, right?). How come the elf didn't notice them coming? He's an elf, and a kirath no less, born and bred in the Silvanesti forest, and they're a bunch of hoofed (as per the DLCS, p. 42) sea-faring hulks whose general knowledge of the forest could likely be summed as "the thing with trees in it"... Makes no sence. They could've perhaps sneaked up on that one elf (however unlikely that seems), since he was grief-stricken (IIRC), and perhaps wasn't paying attention to his surroundings , but how could they conquer the entire forest they've never seen before that's actually guarded by a number of forest-bred people, who should be the undisputed masters of guerilla warfare? Utterly nonsencical... Just IMO, of course... :whatsthis
#11 zombiegleemax Oct 26, 2003 9:20:53	The Silvanesti were weakened, ill and overwhelmed by all that was happening to them at that point. The entire idea of being invaded en masse by minotaurs was probably far from their thoughts. As usual, events in Ansalon are fragmenting along racial lines. Since humans have never held territory in or lived in Silvanesti, the Solamnics and the Plainsmen are not especially interested in what goes on there. It's seen as an elven problem. The Knights of Neraka are also very humanocentric. They're not likely to aid the minotaurs in any way. They're more likely to focus on trying to claim territory in Qualinesti and Abinasinia and retain their other holdings against the Solamnics. Silvanesti has always been remote, closed off from humans. So humans don't really care that much about it. In typically reactive fashion, they'll only start to care if the minotaurs continue to push deeper into Ansalon or increase their attacks at sea. The elves are now refugee people. A great irony given how they have always been so focused on their homelands. At present the elves lack the resources to take back either of their homelands. They'll have to work to build there strength before they have any chance. But it will be hard since they have little respite.
#12 Perun Oct 26, 2003 12:25:29	I know, I know... but I still think it's simply unbelievable... Silvanesti forest is huge. The minotaur forces couldn't have been that big. Mithas and Kothas together would fit in it three times over. So the elves -- instead of withdrawing deeper into the forest, where the minotaurs won't have the slightest chance of finding them (seeing how it's extremely unlikely, if not outright impossible for minotaurs to have any, let alone up-to-date maps of any portion of Silvanesti) -- decide to go into exile, seeing how they really don't like the rest of the world anyways, but it's better than hiding in the most inaccessible portions of their home where they could, in fact, reorganise their forces, and comfortably slaughter the minotaurs using their intimate knowledge of the forest they've been collecting for generations. Minotaurs in thick, primeval forest such as Silvanesti should be akin to an army of dimernesti invading the Plains of Dust. No, I'm sorry, but 'illogical' is a super-euphemysm for the exile of the Silvanesti. It's simply utterly unbelievable, and inconsistent with how the elves were always portrayed.
#13 zombiegleemax Oct 26, 2003 14:41:01	I think you hold elves in too high of esteem. Sure, your warriorrs, fighters, rangers and what not might be able to fight an effective guerrilla war. But there are women and children, craftsman and statesman and a great number of elves who dont have those skills. Send them into exile? Who would protect them in the world if all the martialy skilled elves were elsewhere? I also think you hold minotaurs in too low of esteem. They are disciplined, brave and train from birth to be great warriors. They work extremely well together and their strong navy gives them many options. They are a bad ass fighting force, not a bunch of hulking brutes. They are just as effective as knights, IMHO. But then again, we are all just excercising in mental ************ here since this is just our opinions of how things should be
#14 zombiegleemax Oct 26, 2003 15:16:36	Remember that the Silvanesti were in an EXTREMELY low state of military readiness. They'd been hiding behind their shield for many years, with no need for an army or standing troops. The kirath were few in number. Prolonged exposure to the life drain from the Shield had left many of them weakened and debilitated. In addition, having been isolated from the rest of Ansalon, they had virtually no knowledge of Sorcery or Mysticism, and High Sorcery and Clerical powers were unavailable at that time, therefore none of the magic traditionally associated with their people was available for their defense. Also bear in mind that the Silvanesti were likely only partially recovered from all that had happened to them during the War of the Lance. It may have been a long time for humans, but to elves it was practically last month. So the Silvanesti were probably not in the best of shape for an invasion.
#15 Perun Oct 27, 2003 0:49:54	Even with all that (I really am not familiar of most of the 5th Age stuff, the last time I used DL as a campaign setting was with the TotL boxed set, and except for the novels by Weiss and Hickman, I missed most of the stuff that happened), why would the elves decide to leave their homes? If they're xenophobic (as they are said to be), and if they have little knowledge of the world outside their forest, why would they ever take that road? It's literally a road to the unknown. They have no idea where they were headed, they just blundered out of their forest... It's just one of the built-in Dragonlance illogicalities that's there only to further a part of the story, without much reason behind it. Such things are a part of the setting. Mind you, I love DL, but even the lookie-it's-merely-another-35th-level-archmage FR has more internal consistency than Dragonlance ever had. Especially with their elves. I'm not a big fan of the elves (never could play one -- my elves always turn out to be overgrown halflings, for some reason), but when you have a race whose members can live for more than half a millenium, you expect a certain amount of... reason. DL elves are, by vast majority, pointy-eared humans, who also happen to live a long time, and are extremely snobbish, racist and cowardly to boost. And where did minotaur get large enough numbers to swarm over a forest that's about a quarter of a continent in size? And why would they choose to invade Silvanesti? There are easier targets around, and, as far as they knew, the elves could've had an army of silver dragons waiting for them... And since the silvanest elves suffered greatly in the WotL, have suffered further first from the Lorac's nightmare and then under their shield, and a large number was either killed or evicted by the minotaurs, there's... how many silvanesti in the exile right now? About 5, I'd say. Coupled with approximately 10 qualinesti that survived through the WotL, their dragon overlord, war and subsequent occupation by the Knights of Neraka, the travel through the Plains of Dust, and the attack of minotaurs... There should be more leaders among the elves than the people they're leading... Add to that their low birth rate, and what do you get? I see the total extermination of elves in, say, next two novels. I can only guess it's because the readers, or the authors, or both, like to have maryred elves around. it must be a part of the whole elven craze that's been ragign about for years now, but with a DL twist ;) Don't take this little rant of mine too seriously, though. The books have been written, and that's how Krynn looks now. I'm merely pointing out things that, to me, seem illogical or out-of-place. It's just how I see things, and should not affect your opinions. Much. Although, I'll admit, I won't complain if it does.
#16 zombiegleemax Oct 27, 2003 2:39:14	In next novel could be happen something extraordinary, that will save the whole elven race...
#17 zombiegleemax Oct 27, 2003 21:51:13	It's not really elf-abuse if you think about it. The elves, more than any other people, have behaved in an insular, hostile fashion towards the rest of Ansalon, despite their vaunted claims of commitment to Good. The core of their arrogance has been their secure and isolated homelands. Now that they no longer possess them, they may learn both what hardships other races have had to endure, and also take a good long look at their societies. The Silvanesti caste system will probably not survive. When both commoner and noble are refugees, there is little reason to put on airs, and even less reason to tolerate it. I remember way back in the Chronicles Alhana's admission to her father that she understood why the gods revealed themselves to Goldmoon, a human, instead of to the elves, who were supposed to epitomize Good. It was because Goldmoon shared the news of gods openly, along with her clerical gifts. Alhana knew the elves would not have done that. They would have kept it to themselves and simply dismissed the other races as "unworthy". The elves are simply in for changes that have been needful for a long, long time.
#18 xaxor Oct 27, 2003 23:59:53	The Knights of Solamnia don't really give a hoot. Even though the elves did bother to show up and lend a great deal of strength in one of the final battles of the War of Souls, the Knights would rather see them gone than lend a hand. Everyone would rather see them dead it seems. Its a real tragedy, but its possible that King Gilthas could pull them through.
#19 zombiegleemax Oct 28, 2003 8:25:06	Its about time that my people gained a foot hold on the main continent. We are a proud and powerful race. We have rangers to guide our troops through the cursed elven woods. We have powerful, skilled warriors to deal with any resistance. You may think of use as FR Minotaurs with the brains of peas but we are not. Your false ideas of us only aids to our power. With the Ogres bowing to our fleets we landed with a huge number of troops and the Elves that did attempt to resist us fell quickly. We will not push farther into human lands until we have fully gathered a trmendous amount of troops and have taken absolute control of the Silvenesti woods. We have waited for the day that we were able to gain a foot hold on the mainland for centuries. We can wait a bit longer to increase it. Sargonesti will live on.
#20 zombiegleemax Oct 28, 2003 8:35:28	Originally posted by Xaxor The Knights of Solamnia don't really give a hoot. Even though the elves did bother to show up and lend a great deal of strength in one of the final battles of the War of Souls, the Knights would rather see them gone than lend a hand. Everyone would rather see them dead it seems. Its a real tragedy, but its possible that King Gilthas could pull them through. Well, as I said before, the situation on Ansalon is forming up largely based on racial lines. The Knights of Solamnia are mostly focused on the Knights of Neraka. The elven kingdoms have been isolated and largely closed to humans for centuries. So the Kinights have little presence near to, or interest in, such remote territories. If the races of Ansalon have ever had any short-coming, it is their unwillingness to look beyond their own narrow concerns. This has been true of the elves, it is true of humans and of dwarves.
#21 xaxor Oct 28, 2003 18:23:47	Gilthas still worked with the dwarves to save his people. Silvanesti was the group that closed themselves off. So if anyone will be fixing relations it will be Gilthas. He certainly isn't espousing completely isolationist policies.
#22 zombiegleemax Oct 29, 2003 10:06:09	No, but Gilthas is an atypical elf, which is really the whole point. He's Tanis and Laurana's son indeed, and if you recall they were quite the rebels by Qualinesti standards. In order to survive, the elves must become more like Gilthas. They cannot hope to make it if they try to cling to their old way of doing things. They will also probably have to choose either Qualinesti or Silvanesti, because they cannot liberate both. At least not without a LOT of help.
#23 zombiegleemax Oct 29, 2003 17:23:03	I predict that the minators who followed Kaz away will come back and save the silvanesti.
#24 daedavias_dup Oct 29, 2003 17:40:02	Originally posted by Whaledawg I predict that the minators who followed Kaz away will come back and save the silvanesti. The Kazelati are too few in number to make a difference. They could help to rally the forces of the elves though, which is really what they need. I would find it really cool if all the remaining Irda(I think we underestimate the survival capabilities of a race that can shapeshift, for all we know half of the humans on Ansalon are really Irda) came to the elves assistance to take out the abominations that are the minotaurs.
#25 zombiegleemax Oct 29, 2003 18:08:06	How can you know how few the Kazelati are yet think there are alot of irda? I mean, anything is possible in a fictional universe.
#26 daedavias_dup Oct 29, 2003 18:14:53	Originally posted by Whaledawg How can you know how few the Kazelati are yet think there are alot of irda? I mean, anything is possible in a fictional universe. In the minotaur section in the DLCS it says a few minotaurs worship Kiri-Jolith. Those are the Kazelati. Then again, the number isn't important, it is the positions they hold. It'll be cool if a large portion of the minotaurs that came to mainland Ansalon were in reality Kazelati. The reason I feel there is a possibility for a lot of Irda is that they have their shapeshifting abilities. It definitely makes keeping a accurate number on their population next to impossible.
#27 zombiegleemax Oct 29, 2003 21:54:43	Originally posted by Daedavias ...to take out the abominations that are the minotaurs. ABOMINATIONS!!! How dare you call my people *ABOMINATIONS*!! We will show you the true *MIGHT* of the Minotaurs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ... I mean....ummm... Hey, Minotaurs are cool. And I'm not one of them sneaking into this messageboard to scout out its defenses so that the main army can attack and wipe out all of you puny humans. Nope. Not at all. (Hahaha! They suspect nothing!)
#28 iltharanos Nov 03, 2003 1:07:34	HAHAHAHAHAHA. I love that the elves of Ansalon are so richly reaping their reward for centuries of arrogance and self-styled superiority. As for homelands, the pitiful Qualinesti and Silvanesti can always journey to Qualimori and Silvamori in Southern Ergoth, where they can join their kin in being crushed by the White Dragon Overlord. Damn I love the Age of Mortals. What'd be the crowning glory of this new Age would be the institution by the minotaurs of a bounty of 100 steel pieces per elf head. I'm sure there'd be plenty of takers among the native populations of Neraka, Blode, Kern, Balifor, the Estwilde, and likely even the Plains of Dust, Abanasinia, and Teyr.
#29 zombiegleemax Nov 03, 2003 7:02:38	I think that bounty would have been placed already by the elven blood seeking Ogres,hehe.
#30 iltharanos Nov 03, 2003 22:33:13	Originally posted by Hammerhand I think that bounty would have been placed already by the elven blood seeking Ogres,hehe. Exactly! Since the minotaurs are now allied with the ogres, with the minotaurs instituting their own bounty, any captured elves they acquire can then be turned over to their brutish comrades as a sign of good faith and as a method of strengthening the new Ogre-Minotaur Alliance of Evil.
#31 xaxor Nov 03, 2003 23:00:57	You mean 'Axis of Evil' :D
#32 iltharanos Nov 04, 2003 0:51:32	Originally posted by Xaxor You mean 'Axis of Evil' :D Nah. Axis of Evil has been overdone, it's time for Alliance of Evil ... or Confederation of Evil ... or Federation of Evil ... or Unity of Evil. ;)
#33 zombiegleemax Nov 05, 2003 0:11:34	Hmmmm now i knew that some of the Minos worshiped the Bull God of Good, but as to they were calle the Kazelati...that i didn't knew. So who they are actually ??? From what i red so far they are followers of Kaz or his descendant something alike....then again i might be wrong here...feel free to correct me here.
#34 zombiegleemax Nov 05, 2003 7:38:47	Bison-headed minotaur. ;) Bison-headed minotaur. Might as well be a bull god, but I like to get technical on this point. Followers and descendants, I'd say, in regards to the Kazelati. I don't actually know, but it'd seem to me that if they're just descendants, then biological diversity is going to get really slim, really fast... Aren't they located on a different island? Or are they really just kinda interspersed with the other minotaurs?
#35 zombiegleemax Nov 05, 2003 8:27:53	There are a small number of minotaurs who worship kiri-jolith among the minos of mithos and kothos. The Kazelati are the ones that went with Kaz to some island between ansalon and taladas. They worship KJ almost exclusivly.