WoTC?
I don't think it's ever been revealed and I certainly hope it never is. Why should the DM know something that nobody else except the Lady herself...or one of her dabus knows? The Lady's supposed to be an enigma. Revealing what she really is would take all the fun out of it...kinda like if someone gave stats to the General of Gehenna, the Lords of the Nine, the five Guardinal lords, etc.
Originally posted by Tertek
...kinda like if someone gave stats to the General of Gehenna, the Lords of the Nine, the five Guardinal lords, etc.
Which they did in the Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds :P
But no, it is very unlikely we'll see the dark on the Lady. I have more faith in WotC than that.
But no, it is very unlikely we'll see the dark on the Lady. I have more faith in WotC than that
Granted this is simpy wild speculation since they're not going to be producing any PS specific material, but noticing the current trand to provide stats for everything (Lords of the Nine, Dieties, etc) I highly doubt that if they had continued the PS setting, the Lady of Pain would remain the sacred cow that she is. Even if they didn't reveal her background itself, I'm sure there would be a stat block for her. Of course, once you make a stat block for something, you inevitably make that thing 'killable'.
Flay (ex): The Lady of Pain can cause any creature to be flayed into a gorey glop of corpse pudding by blades that seem to come from nowhere. This attack deals ?d6 damage with no save allowed.
*edit* that ? is supposed to be an infinity sign, but apparently the forums don't recognize that character
And they certainly hint about her history, but its all vague or rumor or stuff you can't make any sense out of (such as the artifact somehow linked to The Lady in the adventure Doors of the Unknown).
The more unknown and enigmatic the better.
And the Anubis reference was probably more accurate than not. Divine or greater than divine in terms of power in many ways, but not actually a power in the needs belief and worship to exist sort of way.
*grins*
Originally posted by moogle001
[b]Which they did in the Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds :P
Blast. I hadn't read those books yet, but that is heresy!
Anyway, how can you make stats for something like Her Serenity, who pretty much obliterated Aoskar from existence? She's stronger than strong and darker than dark. If WotC decides to make stats for her, I will have to try something new...
...Mass murder :P
This established several facts about the status of events at the end of 2nd Edition, as it was one of the "crash books" that set the stage for 3E. It covers Ravenloft, Greyhawk, and Planescape.
It introduced the creators of the Multiverse, known as the Brotherhood, who are above the gods. It includes The Serpent, the "overpower" Vecna worships as the source of all magic, and according to the book, the Lady of Pain. Supposedly, by the inferences made, which I add are all in the DMs-Only sections, not presented to the players as lies or dead ends...do note that the following is a hella spoiler, and entirely shortened to make my point.
Vecna, with the help of the Serpent, who he has always worshipped, absorbs Iuz and ascends to godhood, ripping his way out of Citadel Cavitius, the old Sinker haven he got trapped inside and sucked into Ravenloft, and actually, and I paraphrase heavily, shapes Ravenloft into a kind of spiked funnel that he stabs into the Sinker's Armory, depositing himself, in full Greater Power status, right into Sigil, thanks to some help from Ely Cromlich, who had helped Vecna enter, so that the battle betwixt him and the Lady would tear the multiverse asunder. And battle they did, but the Serpent battled the Lady to such a standstill that she could only trap Vecna inside of his avatar, so that he could not escape. PCs enter, slay the avatar, Vecna is ejected back to Greyhawk as a true god, Iuz breaks free, and they are fueding in 3E, and hence, Vecna is a god in the PHB.
So, as the transfer to 3E was made, they have said basically the following as truth to DMs.
The Lady is one of the most ancient beings in the multiverse, one of the Brotherhood, as is the Serpent, which himself is Epic Magic itself. The Lady is able to keep gods out of Sigil because she is more powerful and older. Only the Serpent, another being of similar age and power, could oppose her in this. And Sigil is not merely the center of the multiverse, it is the lynchpin at the hub, should a god remain within it, he can destroy the multiverse and recreate it in his own image. The Lady of Pain prevents this.
What her stats are, or even how she accomplishes this, or why...are still dark.
That about sums up my reaction to that.
1) Not in the planescape line first of all.
2) Never once worked with the Planescape design team on the plot.
3) Tries to reveal far too much about The Lady which is frankly taboo about the setting. Some questions simply have no answers.
Some of the events of the module nonetheless are in PS3e at present. But selectively, and hardly anyone knows the dark of what actually went on. All people know is the a power entered Sigil and was ejected from Sigil. It's happened before on utterly rare occasions, and each time they've been forced out or killed utterly. The Lady is still around and Vecna was forced from Sigil. What makes it different from any other time?
Vecna's Serpent was never originally intended to be a power or overpower. It was just Vecna's personal way of perceiving magic and how he related to it. Putting a face of sorts, or a name to an abstract concept.
The Serpent being an overpower and the (self consored) about Ancient Bretheren and all was a perversion of that original idea. And doesn't fit with Planescape, nor does it fit with Ravenloft either.
What happened was something akin to Ravenloft essentially abducting Lord Soth from Krynn without the permission of the Dragonlance writers.
The same thing happened here with Sigil used in Die Vecna Die. I don't like it, but to some extent I'm making due with the cards I have on the table. *sigh*
I wasnt asking for stats, thats the last thing I want to see. More interested in history. But as pointed out, its much more interesting to not really know. Thanks.
Simple. You don't. You can't.
Originally posted by Tertek
How do you attribute stats to an entity that is beyond human comprehension?
Simple. You don't. You can't.
Hmmm...I thought you were a sensate, not an Athar ;)
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I highly doubt that if they had continued the PS setting, the Lady of Pain would remain the sacred cow that she is.
I just had a mental image of the Lady of Pain as a cow. 
In all seriousness, though, I think that if Planescape had continued, the dark would still be dark because the PS authors were always adamantly opposed to answering that question.
Wyvern
I would ask all purchasersto make sure to read this humble little purchase outside my premises, however. Might I also advise them to look where they're going when they leave - strange how the streets of Sigil can suddenly seem to repeat, how a favourite alley can loop in upon itself, how a familiar path can bend in unfamiliar ways ... ;)
Will have to send Colcook down to pick up a few dozen, and avoid that book at the same time.*snicker* Wonderful little thing that book is. *grin*
Not that I'd know about it, seeing as how that other Arcanaloth and I don't get along...
"Yeah, Shemeska and the "other" Arcanoloth 'don't get along'."
"I hear from a reliable source that they weren't getting along at least three times last night."
:D
*sells quickly, then runs and hides - preferably on Mt. Celestia*
Ever notice about half the threads here devolve into picking on my august fiendishness? The Arcanaloth's burden I guess...
:D
(And now we are *completely* off-topic... time for an on topic post...)
Originally posted by Gadodel
The Lady of Pain is really a Kender
Are you sure? Because I have it on good authority that she is actually a pair of gnomes, one standing on top of the other.
Originally posted by Gadodel
The Lady of Pain is really a Kender
Are you sure? Because I have it on good authority that she is actually a pair of gnomes, one standing on top of the other.
BAH. Utter screed.
Ik know for a fact that the lady is really six chipmunks standing on each others sholders, wearing a mask and a ring of levitation. How do I know, you ask? well, I peaked under her dress ofcourse.
And you don't have a habit of looking under lady's dressed do you? The Lady might maze you, I won't likely grant you even that much. So don't even think about it.
*sighs* "And the clueless do leave far too much greasy ash on your feet..." *knocks heels on an adjacent doorstep*
*glare* "Anyone else care to speculate wrongly on anything about me?"
mat'r o fact, I wouldn't even want to see und'r yer dress.
Laffs...
...if you're lucky.
The PCs ar ein Sigil whe suddenly there' an uproar. Everyone starts edging away from the road as the Lady begins floating by. As she passes a large minotaur grunts that one of the heroes stepped on his foot and pushes him, sending the hero hurtling into the Lady! The Lady, instead of flaying him alive, falls to the ground. Out from underneath her robes fall two irrate gnomes!
Now, everyone has to wonder, what just happened? Where is the real Lady? The Factions begin to plot their reentrance into Sigil, as do many Powers. A battle begins in the Outlands, some deities fighting to stop others from reaching the Cage, others fighting to get there. Its madness!
No, *that* was stated like a true chaosman.
And may I just say that I *really* like the phrase "Lady of Squirrels". Thank you. *bows*
/me gets naked, covers "self" with hat, wanders off through the hive yelling something about pandas
Originally posted by mrgoat
That's wrong. It's clearly stated in cannon material that the Lady of Pain is a pack of squirrells with a headdress.
Doh! squirrels, not chipmunks.
Originally posted by carteeg
Lady of Pain: Two gnomes, one standing on top of the other, with the top one being a gnome from Krynn whom attempting a new type of foundation application device on herself (hence the blades). All of those who pray to her or get in her way die due to the fact that the gnomes invented their own version of a cell phone which (because of the foundation application device) is now stuck in the bottom gnome's throat. Now, whenever he speaks or tries to do anything other than carry the top gnome around, the victim on the other end is slaughtered into pudding by the radiation coming out of the above mentioned cell phone.... that an a malifunctioning lazer gun which was made as part of the battery casing (don't ask). The only relief from their wanderings at this point is on Tuesdays when they go to play bridge with the Darkpowers of Ravenloft (whom are nothing more than two kobolds with a wand which contains a s***-ton of polymorph, charm, obscuring mist, maze, and illusion spells).
That is pure and utter screed if I ever heard it! Anyone with anything in his bonebox knows that Kobolds don't play bridge.
That's the dark. You can trust me, I'm a merchant.
Originally posted by nick012000
If WotC do a Neutral version of the BoVD or the BoED, you can bet that they will stat out the Lady of Pain.
I think that they would probably do books on Law and Chaos before doing one on Neutrality; they're more obvious choices, they can get two books out of that dichotomy, and they're more cohesive. After doing those they might do one on True-Neutrality, but I doubt it; it's harder to stretch into a whole book, and it probably wouldn't sell nearly as well as the other two (or four). So, I wouldn't worry about them putting stats for the Lady in such a book, because it probably won't happen.
wizo_paradox: Now that we've got mature books on good and evil, are you guys planning on doing one on neutrality?
Chris: It's not on our current schedule, although it would be an interesting parallel to the old PlanescapePlanes of Conflict idea.
So at least they're thinking about it. And I doubt they'd do something with Chaos and Law, those two are covered in the Vile Book and the Exalted Book and really arne't as important as Good and Evil in the grand DnD scheme.
I really hope they don't stat out the Lady. It be almost as stupid as when they statted, er, me. But I wouldn't put it past them. Of course, on the other hand, it would pretty much mean that they had to go into more detail on Sigil, and more fully acknowledge the Cage's existance, so it might not be all bad. But I still doubt it'll happen at all.
Die Vecna Die, by Steve Miller and Bruce R. Cordell
This established several facts about the status of events at the end of 2nd Edition, as it was one of the "crash books" that set the stage for 3E. It covers Ravenloft, Greyhawk, and Planescape.
So TSR put this book out? I guess that makes it official, right? Or did TSR put out "unofficial" stories?
BTW, 3E (3.5, 3.7, 4.4, etc.) will stat Lady of Pain, leaving her statless leaves too much old school feeling to her.
So TSR put this book out? I guess that makes it official, right? Or did TSR put out "unofficial" stories?
BTW, 3E (3.5, 3.7, 4.4, etc.) will stat Lady of Pain, leaving her statless leaves too much old school feeling to her.
Well it wasn't a Planescape product. It has the same level of canon status as a dragonlance module that brought in Elminster from FR and had him killed by a red robe mage half his level. Would you then expect FR to assume those events in a Dragonlance module held true for FR's main continuity?
Aside from that the module took a horrendous number of liberties with what was known to be true in Planescape canon. It trashed Ravenloft even worse.
Thirdly, none of the material from Die Vecna Die has ever been referenced outside of that module in any of the material in 2e or 3e published after that point. Material on Sigil, the planes, and even Greyhawk takes none of those events into consideration. Had they happened as detailed they were so significant that it would be impossible to omit any mention of them. The planar changes mentioned at the end of DVD are NONE of the actual changes that occur between 2e and 3e, none of them whatsoever.
*raises a fiendish eyebrow* 3e, even in the worst examples of it such as the horrendous pastiche of Planescape that was the Planar Handbook, hasn't given The Lady stats. She's not an NPC, She's a fraggin setting mechanic and if you use Her as a normal NPC then frankly you don't understand certain key points of the setting, its logic and its themes and atmosphere.
And... Old school feeling? Humor me and define what exactly you mean by that?
Aargh, it burns!
And hey, who doesn't like rules? Why spend a couple of hours developing story and character when you can argue about the amount of fall damage inflicted from a forty-foot drop, or debate whether you can cut through a solid stone wall with a sword +1? Far more enjoyable!
P.S. Oh, and the Lady of Pain is so clearly Aoskar*.
*By whom I mean Aoskar, kender god of pancakes.
So TSR put this book out? I guess that makes it official, right? Or did TSR put out "unofficial" stories?
BTW, 3E (3.5, 3.7, 4.4, etc.) will stat Lady of Pain, leaving her statless leaves too much old school feeling to her.
Blasphemy!
Well it wasn't a Planescape product. It has the same level of canon status as a dragonlance module that brought in Elminster from FR and had him killed by a red robe mage half his level. Would you then expect FR to assume those events in a Dragonlance module held true for FR's main continuity?
Aside from that the module took a horrendous number of liberties with what was known to be true in Planescape canon. It trashed Ravenloft even worse.
Thirdly, none of the material from Die Vecna Die has ever been referenced outside of that module in any of the material in 2e or 3e published after that point. Material on Sigil, the planes, and even Greyhawk takes none of those events into consideration. Had they happened as detailed they were so significant that it would be impossible to omit any mention of them. The planar changes mentioned at the end of DVD are NONE of the actual changes that occur between 2e and 3e, none of them whatsoever.
*raises a fiendish eyebrow* 3e, even in the worst examples of it such as the horrendous pastiche of Planescape that was the Planar Handbook, hasn't given The Lady stats. She's not an NPC, She's a fraggin setting mechanic and if you use Her as a normal NPC then frankly you don't understand certain key points of the setting, its logic and its themes and atmosphere.
And... Old school feeling? Humor me and define what exactly you mean by that?
Not entirely true, Shemmy. (BTW, I love your new avvy, it's fricking perfect.) Though, I will admit, that it was not how you'd expect.
#1) Ravenloft 3.0/3.5, done by The Kartagane(sp?) crew, now working for Sword and Sorcery's imprint, did indeed keep the event as canon, but, as they had to dodge many copyrighted events, it fell to a near blurb, amounting to, in the recent events and changes to the domains, "Lastly, in recent months, mystics and seers have even claimed that a remote cluster, a land said to have been locked in endless warfare, has been destroyed by forces unknown." Among Lord Soth becoming the vague "Black Rose", you can easily miss it. However, that covers the lands of Vecna and Kaz with a sureness I feel is correct. The massive upheaval promised by the adventure has certainly come to pass. (I'd appreciate if someone can crossreference the date the adventure occured against the RL time frame, but I'm pretty sure it occured during the Fall of Kings, and this is too conspicuous to avoid.) Ravenloft Player's Guide, p18
#2) Vecna returned, now part of the setting's gods again, and no longer a demipower, now toting true god stats. DR 10, actually. (Dieties and Demigods). The events of DVD freed him and gave him true dietyhood. The two mesh perfectly. The events also set the Hand and Eye back in Greyhawk somewhere. As they haven't popped up yet, who can say?Dieties and Demigods, p 94.
#3) In the Epic-level Handbook, epic spells are required to be chiseled out on stone tablets, the method Vecna used to store the theophagic trap that caught Iuz. Previously, in High-Level Campaigns, this was no the case. Also, they reference epic magic as being The Serpent, Vecna is clearly the model for modern Epic Spellcasting as we know it today.
#4) As for the planes themselves, sorry, but there was an effect there as well. Just look at the Etheral/Astral situation. Remember when the Ethereal only touched the Inner, and Astral only touched the Outer? Remember when we had para- and quasi-elemental planes? The references are clear. The Inner Planes absorbed their borderlands, which is why Frostburn is rife with comments about the planes of Air and Water, but not a single one about Ice. Because Ice is GONE. Vecna's presence destabilized the entire multiverse, and the Lady(or whoever) set it aright, but with differences, new planes appearing, old planes leaving, portals not where they should be. It was part-and-parcel of ditching what they didn't want to carry over to Third Edition, and it did its job.
The impact is there, Shem. It's just not beating down the doors. And again, your icon rocks.
Epic spells can't defy her will. Neither can gods. Both together? The potential to put her in check, but certainly not checkmate. Also, that the presence of Vecna in Sigil throws the multiverse on its ear, so either the struggle is preventing the Lady from some sort of maintenance, or his very existance in defiance of the ban is somehow triggering the damage.
That's pretty much all of what DVD does to define the Lady of Pain to PCs. To DMs, it lays out a bit more, but only as to how the interplay is going as The Lady and "Team Vecna and Serpent" battle for dominance. And I should add, though the dabus ask the PCs for help, the Lady never even visibly breaks a sweat, much less her enigmatic character.
And DVD is incredibly boring and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If you are not a Planescape book, do not mess with Sigil or the Lady. Period.
Not entirely true, Shemmy. (BTW, I love your new avvy, it's fricking perfect.) Though, I will admit, that it was not how you'd expect.
The impact is there, Shem. It's just not beating down the doors. And again, your icon rocks.
Yes, the icon does rock.
Old School feeling = more things unkown to the player, more things able to be fudged for story telling purposes, less lengthy and intricate combats (which to me is ok if that is what you want in a wargaming style of game)
Hey man, this is just my opinion, which is just as good as anyone else's opinion.
Back to my original question, is DVD official or not?
Back to my original question, is DVD official or not?
Well it wasn't a Planescape product. It has the same level of canon status as a dragonlance module that brought in Elminster from FR and had him killed by a red robe mage half his level.
That should answer your question.
Old School feeling = more things unkown to the player, more things able to be fudged for story telling purposes, less lengthy and intricate combats (which to me is ok if that is what you want in a wargaming style of game)
I'm confused slightly. Did you originally say 'old school' as a bad thing, or was it said with a massive level of sarcasm? Because in your definition of 'old school' I can't find a single thing that might in any way be construed as a bad thing; and I'm a 3e initiate to DnD.
*nodding* Portions of it may have been kept in places, but in bits and pieces that range from a few words to a sentance at most. And even then it's still questionable how much of the module will ever see inclusion in future continuity. I'd say none because Bruce had the chance to pimp his own material in the Planar Handbook and there wasn't even a mention of it in the chapter on Sigil therein.
#1) Ravenloft 3.0/3.5, done by The Kartagane(sp?) crew, now working for Sword and Sorcery's imprint, did indeed keep the event as canon, but, as they had to dodge many copyrighted events, it fell to a near blurb, amounting to, in the recent events and changes to the domains, "Lastly, in recent months, mystics and seers have even claimed that a remote cluster, a land said to have been locked in endless warfare, has been destroyed by forces unknown." Among Lord Soth becoming the vague "Black Rose", you can easily miss it. However, that covers the lands of Vecna and Kaz with a sureness I feel is correct.
Something can be featured in a book and not be considered canonical for the setting it stole a concept/character from. Mention Soth and Ravenloft in the same breath and some Dragonlance fans will hang you. I wouldn't, but I'd simply defer to the main authors of the setting as saying 'no, Soth wasn't in Ravenloft TYVM' much as I'd defer to Monte Cook referring to DVD as 'wacky' among other things.
I'd very much make the case for DVD here as being in limbo as far as its plot goes. We'll likely never ever again see a continuation of its plot elements.
#2) Vecna returned, now part of the setting's gods again, and no longer a demipower, now toting true god stats. DR 10, actually. (Dieties and Demigods). The events of DVD freed him and gave him true dietyhood. The two mesh perfectly. The events also set the Hand and Eye back in Greyhawk somewhere. As they haven't popped up yet, who can say?Dieties and Demigods, p 94.
Well the hand and eye were in Greyhawk originally and 3e, using Greyhawk as the default prime world, simply had them back there by default like all of the other artifacts in the DMG.
Other gods have changed their level of divinity between editions as well. Hells, Io is an intermediate deity in 3.5e...
What I'm trying to say though is that I don't think you can absolutely tie down Vecna's rise from demigod in 2e to true deity explicitely at the hands of DVD. Coincidence but perhaps not causality.
#3) In the Epic-level Handbook, epic spells are required to be chiseled out on stone tablets, the method Vecna used to store the theophagic trap that caught Iuz. Previously, in High-Level Campaigns, this was no the case. Also, they reference epic magic as being The Serpent, Vecna is clearly the model for modern Epic Spellcasting as we know it today.
The Serpent was the conceptualization of magic in the abstract before Cordell got ahold of it in DVD. That it's mentioned as a name for Epic magic in the ELH is neither a surprise, nor an issue really.
The ELH requires epic spells to be chisled on stone tablets? *eyebrow* I'll have to go back and look that up, not that I'd use require that in a game even if it said so.
#4) As for the planes themselves, sorry, but there was an effect there as well. Just look at the Etheral/Astral situation. Remember when the Ethereal only touched the Inner, and Astral only touched the Outer? Remember when we had para- and quasi-elemental planes? The references are clear. The Inner Planes absorbed their borderlands, which is why Frostburn is rife with comments about the planes of Air and Water, but not a single one about Ice. Because Ice is GONE. Vecna's presence destabilized the entire multiverse, and the Lady(or whoever) set it aright, but with differences, new planes appearing, old planes leaving, portals not where they should be. It was part-and-parcel of ditching what they didn't want to carry over to Third Edition, and it did its job.
Not quite. The reasoning for the cosmology changes were explicitely out of character and purely because the designers wanted to simplify things. I don't agree with what they did, but their intentions were pure in this case (unlike the [insert favorite mildly pegorative term] who decided to remove modrons)
DVD makes the claim that outer planes vanish or merge together, but every single 2e outer planes is in the exact same spot in 3e as it was in Planescape. DVD also claims that an inner plane runs aground on the prime, and aside from being somewhat silly this hasn't happened in anything 3e. It doesn't mention any transitives planes, nor does it mention the removal of any inner planes.
To make the claim that the alterations to the ethereal, astral, shadow, and the removal of the para and quasielemental planes are the result of the last pages of DVD is simply an excercise in falsehood since none of the changes listed in DVD are those that happen in 3e compared to 2e. DVD listed out the changes and they aren't actually the ones that occur in the transition to 3e. I can see where it might be seductive to grant DVD some status in canon by claiming it made the 3e cosmology changes, but it requires you to ignore the changes that it actually makes claim to.
It's like me claiming that the 3e FR pantheon trimming, which happened because IIRC someone (SKR?) decided it was too cluttered, happened as a direct result of the time of troubles. You might infer it perhaps in a gigantic leap of nonsensical and unsupported rejection of logic, but you'd be wrong and you'd have FR fans looking wierdly at you. Thematically it too might seem like a good idea, but such an event would have never actually happened during that time in anything that was written.
I'm confused slightly. Did you originally say 'old school' as a bad thing, or was it said with a massive level of sarcasm? Because in your definition of 'old school' I can't find a single thing that might in any way be construed as a bad thing; and I'm a 3e initiate to DnD.
I did not intend the term 'old school' to be in any way 'a bad thing'.
I suppose my post was unclear and/or poorly worded and for that I must apologize.
So what I'm hearing from you guys is the module, though official, should be disregarded in much the same manner as any Highlander movie sequel. With that analogy I can see why the fans of Planescape might be so offended by DVD.
http://www.dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=385
But anyways, I have to go retch bile after reading that...
Someone at Dicefreaks actually gave the Lady of Pain a complete write up a few days back!!
http://www.dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=385
"You know, there are times that I as one of the singularly powerful individuals in Sigil simply look at someone and feel pity for you despite how utterly alien it is for me as a 'loth to feel pity for anything."
"Sure I take protection money in one form or another from a decent chunk of Sigil's population, but frankly I'm sitting here considering your situation and well... keep your money and get out of my office before I personally throw you out the window."
*insert standard reaction of a "Planescape fanboi"*
(Although it's very amusing to see something I wrote originally being quoted as if it were canon. Yugoloth lies, they're everywhere you see. Muahahaha!)
Someone at Dicefreaks actually gave the Lady of Pain a complete write up a few days back!!
http://www.dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=385
But anyways, I have to go retch bile after reading that...
My eyes. They burn.
The idea that she also killed all of Aoskar's worshippers is entirely Shemmy's.
The point is, we don't know. There's no textual evidence to say whether the Lady of Pain is a mortal, a fiendish lord, an overdeity or something in between.
The idea that she also killed all of Aoskar's worshippers is entirely Shemmy's.
Yep, that's my fault there. It was in the first draft of the Sigil material on Planewalker. In subsequent versions it was toned down from any sort of absolute and included as a particularly harsh legend from the period, but also just one of several stories of what happened, etc. Might have just been all of his priests in Sigil, all of his priests on the planes, all who had taken him as a patron within Sigil, etc. A huge portion of Sigil worshipped him at the time and there's no real indication of a sudden population drop, so She isn't likely to have just slathered the pavement of the City of Doors with his worshippers across the entirety of all of the wards.
It's probably one of the lesser examples, combined with the sudden anathema of the trappings of Aoskar's religion, that Aoskar was dead and people moving on to other faiths, and active persecution and dismantling of his temples everywhere by several factions. etc etc.
I like 1E over Planescape any day of the week (grew up playing Mystara!); I just find it mind boggling that people out there at Dicefreaks don't understand what the LoP is... a plot device, certainly -not- any sort of NPC.
Ed Greenwood has mentioned the Lady of Pain is an Overpower, that should be enough for any one... giving her skills, feats, etc, is just silly.
It seems to me the trend in D+D these days is just to change things for the sake of changing it, and all of a sudden it is "correct" somehow.
Ed Greenwood has mentioned the Lady of Pain is an Overpower, that should be enough for any one...
Ed Greenwood didn't invent her. His opinion on the Lady isn't any more valid than any other gamer's, except possibly with regards to the Realms specifically.
Now, David "Zeb" Cook did invent her, and his opinion is good enough for me: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/1482/ps/why.html
In any case, if he actually said the Lady of Pain was an overpower, he was wrong. David Cook intended the Lady to be a mystery. He didn't intend her to be a god or something beyond a god; he intended her to be something completely undefined. She could be an overpower, but she's not, if you see the distinction. It's just as likely that she's an Abyssal lord or a powerful half-elven sorcerer.
Someone at Dicefreaks actually gave the Lady of Pain a complete write up a few days back!!
http://www.dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=385
But anyways, I have to go retch bile after reading that...
Well, what can I say? At least they got her alignment right...
Someone at Dicefreaks actually gave the Lady of Pain a complete write up a few days back!!
http://www.dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=385
But anyways, I have to go retch bile after reading that...
Don't **** all over yourself, Kali (or, to echo your example, vomit). It's not Dicefreaks Certified and was done half-way as a joke and half-way to instigate discussion on what we may or may not do with overpowers from a stats point of view. All respect due to Zeb Cook, but I think the of a "plot device" while nice and all doesn't really fit in the 3ed framework. Also, Monte Cook mentioned at least once that the PS design team did perceive her as an overpower.
That said, I see no problem with defining The Lady of Pain in some fashion. While I see no reason for full-blown stats, I see no reason with having some statistical information that makes sense given what we've seen so far. The fact that it seems to reside in Sigil (the current name for the "center" of the Concordant Opposition) and that it bars gods from it suggests a true Neutral being of cosmic/divine power.
In the end, I don't think that even we at Dicefreaks are going to stat it out. I'm not even certain I'll get my way and have its alignment and its cosmic rank (our version of "divine rank" for cosmic beings that do not require worship) posted in an official capacity. A lot of people want to cling to the idea that its just a plot-device, which I frankly think devalues the character. Yes, if its statted some git's going to "find a way" to "beat" it but none of that's official and when one sits down and asks the git how and why, any reasonably mature and responsible player will realize that they're dealing with a git and ignore it.
Strength: mobius strip
Dexterity: mobius strip
Constitution: mobius strip
Intelligence: mobius strip
Wisdom: mobius strip
Charisma: mobius strip
Alignment: mobius strip
Saves: mobius strips
BAB: mobius strip
HP: mobius strip
Spells:
Razor Shadow -- anything under the shadow that the Lady of Pain wants to kill dies, without save. This is not a death affect, and nothing is immune.
Maze -- anything the Lady wises to Maze gets mazed, with no save for this initial effect. The Lady sets the difficulty for the save to escape the Maze, and how long the victim must wait between rolls.
Power of the Lady (aka Squirrelly Wrath) -- the Lady of Pain can cast wish as a free action as many times per round as she wises, and can recreate any spell effect, spell like ability, or anything in the game that she desires. The Lady of Pain never automatically fails, even if she rolls a 1.
:P :D
Whats a chipmunk? Is that something like a Ratatosk? *peery look*
And you don't have a habit of looking under lady's dressed do you? The Lady might maze you, I won't likely grant you even that much. So don't even think about it.
Madam, think a moment of what is under the Lady's dress. It's impossible to get a habit of going there.
... Yes, if its statted some git's going to "find a way" to "beat" it but none of that's official and when one sits down and asks the git how and why, any reasonably mature and responsible player will realize that they're dealing with a git and ignore it.
This has already happened; "belial666" on the linked thread brought out a few absurd epic spells.
This has already happened; "belial666" on the linked thread brought out a few absurd epic spells.
Yes, I know... "Belial the Leveler" here. I've been reading the thread with a great deal of amusement. It's great stuff...
That is pure and utter screed if I ever heard it! Anyone with anything in his bonebox knows that Kobolds don't play bridge.
They are much better at playing Rummy. Trust me, I owe $50 to the ones living in my basement.
The novel Hex and the City by Simon Green (fourth in a series) has an entity who might be interpreted as his version of the Lady of Pain in the Nightside, his strange, cross-planar city - the Lord of Thorns.
I am the stone that breaks all hearts. I am the nails that bound the Christ to his cross. I am the arrow that pierced a King's eye. I am the necessary suffering that makes us all stronger. The cold, clear heart of the Nightside. It was given to me to have dominion over all who exist here, to protect the Nightside from itself. I maintain the Great Experiment, watching over it, and sitting in judgement on all who might seek to disrupt or tamper with its essential nature. I am the scalpel that cuts out infection, and the heartbreak that makes men wiser. I am the Lord of Thorns, and I know you all.
Deep beneath the city, in the region called the World Beneath, there is a dark river where the eaters of souls swim. Upstream there is a palace, and within the palace is bound a former Lord of Hell (Beelzebub, in fact). Behind the throne of the demon ruler is a stair that descends for miles; its walls flow with tears and the still-suffering faces of trespassers light the way. At the bottom of the stair is a crystal cave carved with the truenames of all angels and demons, so that the Lord of Thorns has dominion over the hosts of Heaven and Hell. In the cave there is also a throne, upon which the Lord of Thorns sits.
Hex and the City, besides opening with so many puns (starting with the title) I almost thought I was reading a Xanth novel, is the volume in the Nightside series where the author gives the reader the solutions to all the mysteries he's been hinting at in the previous three books. It's a good read, but it reminds me of why mysteries in fiction are often best left unsolved. When mystery goes, some of the magic goes with it.
I definitely think that's true for the Lady of Pain.
To truly be a mystery we can't know what she is and more importantly isn't capable of. To not know if she can be thwarted, or if your intricate plan to sieze control of sigil will succeed or fail, that's part of the fun.
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Sigil needs a french quarter.
Yep, that's my fault there. It was in the first draft of the Sigil material on Planewalker. In subsequent versions it was toned down from any sort of absolute and included as a particularly harsh legend from the period, but also just one of several stories of what happened, etc. Might have just been all of his priests in Sigil, all of his priests on the planes, all who had taken him as a patron within Sigil, etc. A huge portion of Sigil worshipped him at the time and there's no real indication of a sudden population drop, so She isn't likely to have just slathered the pavement of the City of Doors with his worshippers across the entirety of all of the wards.
I'm not sure if this has any relevance here, but in Planescape: Torment (love that game) you at one point can chose to become a follower of Aoskar.
I did, and upon leaving the area, was Mazed. The priest in question also mentions something to the effect of the Lady killed Aoskar and most of his (her?) followers.