So, basically I'm going to DM the game w/ 3 of my friends. I was looking in the hobby shop for a monsters manual, and I noticed the Dragonlance book. It seemed like it was like a player's guide for a Dragonlance setting.
I've read a few of the Dragonlance novels, and my friend has read very many of them. So I was thinking of perhaps purchasing this and creating a Dragonlance setting game.
Problem is, the book costs like 40 bucks. I was wanting to know if it was even worth it. I already have my hands full reading the Players guide, and DM guide, I was wondering if it would even be worth the hassle to read it too.
What are the main differences? Are the game mechanics the same or are they different?
Also, I only flipped through the book briefly, so I didn't look at it in detail. Is it a comprehensive book, or will I also need to purchase more and more references to go w/ it?
Anyway, sorry for all the questions, basically I would just like to hear your opinions on it. I'm tending to lean toward this simply because I'm more familar w/ the Dragonlance realm through the novels, yet also familiar w/ the Forgotten Realms setting through the several video games I've played. So Im not sure which route to go, as a beginning DM.
The core game mechanics are unchanged from 3e of course but the DLCS gives you all the information on all of the races in the DragonLance realm along with the stats/rules for them.
It covers all of the classes that are in DragonLance, most of those are the same as the PHB classes with the addition of the Mystic, and Noble classes.
It also has all of the Prestige Classes for the DragonLance world, including Knights of Solamnia/Neraka, Wizards of High Sorcery, Dragon Rider etc.
It has a listing of all of the gods, and the domains for those gods.
The book essentially covers everything you need to know to adventure, and DM within the DragonLance realm.
It also has a very complete and well done time line of the entire history of Krynn.
The geography chapter is a little skimpy and tends to leave much to be desired, but if you've read the novels then that won't be much of an issue for you.
The DLCS alone should cover everything you need to adventure within the DragonLance realm, and you won't have to purchase any further DragonLance supplements if you don't wish to.
Certainly their are other books, and supplemental material planned including the already available "Age of Mortals" product, but those are all optional and the DLCS alone should suffice perfectly on it's own.
As for Forgotten Realms vs DragonLance... well that's another matter altogether.
Both settings have a very different and distinct flavour.
I can't say as I'm all that fond of Forgotten Realms as a game setting but that's a personal opinion and others may disagree.
If you've read the novels then you'll assuredly be much more familiar with the DragonLance world then what knowledge you could gain of Forgotten Realms through video games... that would definitely tend to make it easier on you were you to choose DragonLance.
Forgotten Realms does however have much more supplemental gaming material available then does DragonLance but if your only looking at purchasing the core setting book then that shouldnt really make any difference.
Anyway, I appreciate the information, it has definetely helped me make my decision. :D
;)
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
ACTUALLY, there's been several computer Dragonlance games. back in the day of Gold Box computer games, in like 88 or earlier.
Here is one that most don't remember (and for good reason). There was an old Dragonlance game released for the original Nintendo machine. The game was clunky, hard to play, hard to understand, but it was DL. If I remember right, it was a side scroller set in the age of the WoTL.
As for the Computer Games (Dark Queen of Krynn, etc.), does anyone know where I can get a copy of those? I used to own them, but they dissapeared when I moved away from home.
Originally posted by Paladin's Wrath
Actually, there is going to be a Dragonlance expansion pack for NeverWinter Nights. I've seen some of the screenshots and there will be the ability to play through WoTL as one of the companions. I eagerly await this, but I either never found out or forgot when it will be released.
really? *blinks* why add a Dragonlance expansion to a Forgotten Realms game? In fact, a full game onto a game... not to sound like i'm insulting you or anything but that sounds like a kendertale to me
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
really? *blinks* why add a Dragonlance expansion to a Forgotten Realms game? In fact, a full game onto a game... not to sound like i'm insulting you or anything but that sounds like a kendertale to me
Hmmm posting problems....
Actually I think he may be refering to the work being done by Dragonlance Adventures. I haven't been watching their progress lately but now that I've been reminded of them I'll definately keep an eye on their site.
If this is not the case Paladin, could you inform us of the NWN Dragonlance work that your are refering to if you happen to remember it? I like NWN and all but I'm more of a DL fan than a FR fan. I'v beeen jonesing for a DL version since I found out about the game. Thanks.
It takes place in the pre-cataclysm.
As for the ones in neverwinter nights, it's not an expansion for the original game. In neverwinter nights u have the option to build modules. it's like complete new games that use neverwinter nights. u see nothing of forgotten realms there. all is converted for dragonlance or the other topic. I remember reading somewhere one on lord of the rings for example and one for harry potter. All u keep is the rules of the game. The story items characters, u can change completely.
The module I found took place in the pre-war of souls and we were part of Alhana's warriors. Hope it helps
nwvault.ign.com/features/previews/DLA/
Check it out.
Originally posted by Kalanth
As for the Computer Games (Dark Queen of Krynn, etc.), does anyone know where I can get a copy of those? I used to own them, but they dissapeared when I moved away from home.
I have the whole trilogy (Champions of Krynn, Death Knights of Krynn, and Dark Queen of Krynn), and all in their original gold box covers to boot. :D Unfortunately, I think they're currently lost amidst 7 or 8 large boxes full of crap that's moldering in my shed.
George
1. I find it too expensive for the content it offers. If you strip away the brown sidebars on both ends (on every page except the maps), 30% of the book is gone already. They could have done it in 200 pages, and it would have looked better.
2. There is no map of Krynn (or Ansalon) in the book. There are some pages with maps on them, but using them is cumbersome. There should have been a map like there is one of Faerun in the Forgotten Realms setting.
3. There are no stats of memorable characters. Raistlin, Caramon, Tasslehoff, Tanis Half-Elven, Flint Fireforge, Soth, Kitiara, Verminaard. They would all have been great examples for characters or NPC's. Use the new rules and apply them to old characters. In Forgotten Realms, there's stats of Drizz't, Artemis Entreri, even Elminster. In Dragonlance, there is *nothing*. This was a big letdown for me.
4. Most pictures and illustrations look like they've been painted by Margaret Weis's 6 year old grandchild, if she has any. The picture of the Inn of the Last Home is a complete joke. I wish it would have been funny.
5. The history is inaccurate, but with such a big history, this is acceptable. It says something about Fistandantilus destroying both armies (Dwarf) with a spell. In reality, it was his spell AND the activation of the time journeying device that set off the big explosion.
6. The time journeying device isn't anywhere in the book (as a magic item).
7. Mentioning dragon-overlords, and only offer a vague description without any statistics.
So far the bad news.
The good news is that it's usable. For a new group, I would find it a bit on the heavy side. Keeping track of your wizard is hard enough, at first. Keeping track of your wizard and three moons is a lot harder. The races look great (ohhh look at the boobs on that Centaur!
), the prestige classes (Knights) look good, and there's ofcourse tons and tons of story hooks (for the creative DM) since there's so much of a rich history.I bought it as soon as I spotted it, but still, 40 bucks was way too much.
I dunno. I have mixed feelings about it. I was wondering, in the races section, they have the draconian racial traits, but only for a few types of draconian. Where are the rest? I think they had Bozak and Kapak, but where were the rest? I didn't see Sivak or Aurak in the racial types to play. That was dissapointing. Or did I overlook something? I know there are stats in the back but I was referring to the early chapter that contains the different races.
I wanted to run a Dragonlance campaign for my friends, but since I am a newbie DM, the DL campaign setting seems a bit overwhelming for me at this time. Maybe in a few sessions I can add in more and more DL stuff. Right now I'm thinking of keeping it D&D generic at the time being...
2. No map. It was edited out, for some god forsaken reason. But this is WotC's fault, and not Sovereign Press'. So I tend to overlook this. There was supposed to be a map, after all.
3. Why, whatever do you mean? We've got Gerard Uth Mondar, Alhana Starbreeze, Linsha Majere, and others. Yes, the Heroes of the Lance are basically absent, but that's because the setting is no longer the 4th Age. Look for the Companions et al in the 4th Age book, which will cover the time period (Yeah, I know, it sucks to have to wait for another release).
4. Agreed on the pictures.
5. The history is abbreviated, but I could hardly call it inaccurate. How could it be inaccurate if Margaret Weis was right there, with her hand guiding the book? Some stuff looks incorrect, but it's basically because we're working with a short version of the history, not a detailed, complete history (which would easily be a book in itself)
6. I know what the time journeying device does. No big deal.
I can't say I need stats for it or anything. At least, not more immediately than I'd like stats on a hoopak. Grrr.7. I could've sworn there were actual stats for some of the Overlords in there... huh. Maybe I'm wrong. The Age of Mortals has those, though, in either case.
Edit RE: Draconians. I'm guessing they felt that the other Draconian types were more difficult to integrate as player races, and would probably be used less frequently. Heh. But since I can see what they did to move the Kapak and Baaz over to playable races, it's really not hard to do the same with the others. Hit Die + Level Adjustment = ECL
And you're set!Originally posted by Voivod
3. There are no stats of memorable characters. Raistlin, Caramon, Tasslehoff, Tanis Half-Elven, Flint Fireforge, Soth, Kitiara, Verminaard. They would all have been great examples for characters or NPC's. Use the new rules and apply them to old characters. In Forgotten Realms, there's stats of Drizz't, Artemis Entreri, even Elminster. In Dragonlance, there is *nothing*. This was a big letdown for me.
You'll note that Drizzt, Artemis and Elminster are all still active and current in the 3rd edition Forgotten Realms. The FRCS doesn't have stats for any dead or no longer current characters.
The Dragonlance setting's current era doesn't include any of those characters you mention, which is unsurprisingly why they're not included. They'll be in the War of the Lance Campaign Companion, which is a historical resource and era sourcebook.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Slider33
I would have to agree with your statements. For some strange reason, the pictures in the book kind of left me with a funny feeling when reading the book. Maybe it was like reading a children's book or something perhaps.....
I dunno. I have mixed feelings about it. I was wondering, in the races section, they have the draconian racial traits, but only for a few types of draconian. Where are the rest? I think they had Bozak and Kapak, but where were the rest? I didn't see Sivak or Aurak in the racial types to play. That was dissapointing.
Aurak and Kapak are at the beginning of the book (character races). Sivak and Bozak are in the back. Totally random, is my guess. It seems a bit sloppy, even. There's no description for Sivak characters, so far as I can see, but there is for Bozak. Ah well, I don't see a use for draconian characters anyway. Next thing you know everybody wants to play a dragon. But I guess, they need reasons to sell 'Savage Species' (a totally useless book, in my opinion).
I wanted to run a Dragonlance campaign for my friends, but since I am a newbie DM, the DL campaign setting seems a bit overwhelming for me at this time. Maybe in a few sessions I can add in more and more DL stuff. Right now I'm thinking of keeping it D&D generic at the time being...
I would start with the basics. The rules are complicated enough already. Then, take your time with reading the whole Dragonlance setting (if you decide to buy it), and only then start playing it. I'm pretty familiar with it (the DLCS) now, but I still don't want to switch over without preparing some killer stories first.
Originally posted by The Udjat
1. Yeah. It's expensive. Most gaming products are, I've found. But I think it's worth it. I own it, after all. All a matter of opinion...
I also own it. It's inferior to products of the same price, like the DM guide. Or was the DM guide even cheaper?
2. No map. It was edited out, for some god forsaken reason. But this is WotC's fault, and not Sovereign Press'. So I tend to overlook this. There was supposed to be a map, after all.
There was also supposed to be world peace. There is no map, and that is dumb. There is also no permission to copy maps from the book, which is also dumb.
3. Why, whatever do you mean? We've got Gerard Uth Mondar, Alhana Starbreeze, Linsha Majere, and others. Yes, the Heroes of the Lance are basically absent, but that's because the setting is no longer the 4th Age. Look for the Companions et al in the 4th Age book, which will cover the time period (Yeah, I know, it sucks to have to wait for another release).
Ahhhhhh, more $$$. That's a good explanation. Raistlin/Caramon/Flint etc. would have been great in the last chapter (playing in different times).
4. Agreed on the pictures.
Good.
5. The history is abbreviated, but I could hardly call it inaccurate. How could it be inaccurate if Margaret Weis was right there, with her hand guiding the book? Some stuff looks incorrect, but it's basically because we're working with a short version of the history, not a detailed, complete history (which would easily be a book in itself)
Fistandantilus did not 'destroy both armies' with his spell. He also died there himself.
6. I know what the time journeying device does. No big deal.
Whoopie, you know what it does. Maybe it also does other stuff. Also, a picture would have been nice.
7. I could've sworn there were actual stats for some of the Overlords in there... huh. Maybe I'm wrong. The Age of Mortals has those, though, in either case.
Let me know if you find them and give me the page numbers. I've not seen any.
Edit RE: Draconians. I'm guessing they felt that the other Draconian types were more difficult to integrate as player races, and would probably be used less frequently.
See previous post.
Originally posted by Voivod
Whoopie, you know what it does. Maybe it also does other stuff. Also, a picture would have been nice.
The device of time journeying is in the Age of Mortals book. I never plan on using it, so I was not concerned when I found it.
Let me know if you find them and give me the page numbers. I've not seen any.
Look a bit harder, cause the Dragonlords are listed in the table of Contents in the begining of the book.
Originally posted by Kalanth
Look a bit harder, cause the Dragonlords are listed in the table of Contents in the begining of the book.
Well...the Dragonlords aren't. But the Dragon Overlords, are (at least Khellendros, Onysablet, and Malystryx are). The only Dragonlord mentioned is Bryneseldimmer(sp).
The Dragonlords are, however, in the Web Enhancement on the WotC website.
First off - Regarding Draconians. No. The ones in the beginning are the Baaz and the Kapak. To my knowledge, the Draconians with the lowest CR and, accordingly, lowest ECL. The spellcasters (Bozak and Aurak) and the Sivak, all of which have a higher CR and ECL, are all in the monster section, right alongside monster versions of the Baaz and Kapak. It is not totally random, and I personally don't find it sloppy. I'm sorry that you do.
Regarding the map. Your retort, if it was such, doesn't make a great deal of sense. A world map and world peace have very little to do with each other, especially in this case. What I'm telling you is that a world map, a complete world map, was included in the original design of the DLCS. It got edited out, not by Sovereign, but by WotC. I'm not saying it's not dumb. I'm just trying to point out where the appropriate criticism can be aimed.
Regarding Time Journeying Device. So we know it exists in another book. There. I still don't see what you're complaining about. It's a device of time journeying. I can think of two things that it does: Journey through time, and stay with the owner. And I don't need stats to tell me this! You probably wouldn't really want a picture, either, based on the ambient art in the book. Remember that complaint?
Originally posted by Brimstone
Well...the Dragonlords aren't. But the Dragon Overlords, are (at least Khellendros, Onysablet, and Malystryx are). The only Dragonlord mentioned is Bryneseldimmer(sp).
The Dragonlords are, however, in the Web Enhancement on the WotC website.
That was a bit of a typo on my part, thanks. Mentally, I always combine the two under one definition.
Originally posted by The Udjat
What I'm telling you is that a world map, a complete world map, was included in the original design of the DLCS. It got edited out, not by Sovereign, but by WotC. I'm not saying it's not dumb. I'm just trying to point out where the appropriate criticism can be aimed.
Time to play Devils Advocate
Soverign Press has admitted the disclusion of a map was a mistake and it was intended to be present in the DLCS.
Logically Soverign Press would therefore present the map as a Web Enhancement, yet they have for some unknown reason chosen not to give us the map that they claim to they intended to.
The map must be finished, as they stated it was edited out by WoTC so why not present in as a Web Supplement if we were originally supposed to recieve it?
One could easily argue that Soverign Press is intentionally passing along fallatious information as they actions seem unusual if their statements were true.
Originally posted by RandPC
One could easily argue that Soverign Press is intentionally passing along fallatious information as they actions seem unusual if their statements were true.
Well...did Sov. Press ever actually blame WotC for leaving it out? Or have we all just assumed that it was WotC who edited it out since they edited the book.
Or did the map just kinda fall beneath the cracks?
I just highly doubt that anyone intentionally left it out (Sov. Press or WotC) especially since the book has a glued binding (making it impossible to use the maps in the book accurately).
1. Agreed, take away the massive sidebars and the slightly larger text relative to most books and it could easily be shrunk to 250 pages at least.
It definitely seems rather expensive for the material provided relative to comparable products from other companies.
2. They've stated it was an unintention error, and was edited out by WoTC.
Nonetheless, it's merely an excuse the end result it that
lacks a full map and SP has not provided one as a Web Supplement.
Comparable products do with very few exceptions provide a full map.
3. With one exception all characters you mentioned are deceased. I can't think of any Campaign Settings published by WoTC or 3rd parties that present statistics for deceased characters in the main setting book.
It seems more logical to provide statistics for those characters in a book targeted for the age in which they were actually alive.
That product- War of the Lance, Campaign Companion is due for release in 2004.
4. While it's not the best art I've seen it's far from the worst either.
I have seen far worse art in other Campaign Settings.
I do feel it to be below average relative to other products of comparable price, but even that is a debateable point so on the whole I must disagree with your complaint.
5. I've only found a few errors with regards to the history of DragonLance, and none of those struck me as extremely large issues nor were they likely to impact upon play in any substantial manner.
I also felt the History was extremely well done, and very comprehensive and decently well detailed.
In all, I am of the opinion that this aspect of the DLCS is actually superior to that in most other products.
6. One can hardly expect every magical item ever used to be presented.
It's not an item likely to be utilized in most campaigns either, so I find it's disclusion easily understandable.
The DLCS does present numerous other magical items.
7. The DLCS does cover Khellendros, Onysablet, and Malystryx- all Dragon Overlords.
Those are debateably 3 of the 4 most significant Overlords, so I must disagree with your sentiment.
8. Regarding placement of the Draconian racial stats.
Against I'm forced to disagree with your complaint.
Aurak and Kapak are covered with the other PC Races.
All other Draconians are covered with the Monstrous races.
I would tend to find that very acceptable as such races have an ECL way too high to make them easily useable in many campaigns and include abilities that may make them difficult to incorporate into an adventure.
If the DM does wish to utilize them however there is enough information provided that it's not very difficult to present them as a playable option.
I'll present three other aditional issues with the DLCS:
1. Short and relatively sparse geography chapter, that completely omits any information on major areas such as
Haven- the capital of Abanasinia.
This despite the fact that Haven is shown on the map.
It covers other areas that arent even presented as existing on the maps.
The Age of Mortals product does have a pretty good geography chapter, but the DLCS Geography is at best very poor relative to comparable products.
2. Horrendous editing that is packed full of typos, terrible usage of grammer, and sentences that make little sense as written.
It also switches back and forth between D&D 3.0 and 3.5 terminology, though this is at least understandable given it's release shortly after the D&D 3.5 revision.
In summary it's probably the second worst editing I've seen in any of roughly 20 products I have seen released by WoTC.
3. A complete lack of all racial weapons.
Again, most comparable products do cover such information.
The DragonLance DM Screen is supposed to provide said information albeit at an extra expense.
My comments above probably make it seem as though the DLCS is extremely poor- I don't feel that way however.
It should be kept in mind that I've ONLY covered the books flaws above.
It does have a number of areas in which I believe it to be superior to most comparable products.
All in all, I feel the DLCS is a marginally below average Campaign Setting.
It's good enough to appeal to and satisfy existing fans, but is highly unlikely to satisfy anyone that hasnt extensively read at least the main DragonLance novel series.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Well...did Sov. Press ever actually blame WotC for leaving it out? Or have we all just assumed that it was WotC who edited it out since they edited the book.
Or did the map just kinda fall beneath the cracks?
I just highly doubt that anyone intentionally left it out (Sov. Press or WotC) especially since the book has a glued binding (making it impossible to use the maps in the book accurately).
I was under the impression they had blamed WoTC foe editing it out, however I may be mistaken... if so I apologize.
The have in numerous instances which I can link to stated that they fully intended to provide the map in the DLCS and it was an accident that it was left out- which would still leave the lack of a map as a Web Enhancement as.... unusual.
Originally posted by RandPC
I was under the impression they had blamed WoTC foe editing it out, however I may be mistaken... if so I apologize.
The have in numerous instances which I can link to stated that they fully intended to provide the map in the DLCS and it was an accident that it was left out- which would still leave the lack of a map as a Web Enhancement as.... unusual.
Oh...I believe that second paragraph absolutely.
I just wasn't sure if the first one was true or not. (I just didn't think we should be putting words in their mouth and get anyone in trouble, ya know). So I was just wanting to clarify.
Originally posted by Kalanth
The device of time journeying is in the Age of Mortals book. I never plan on using it, so I was not concerned when I found it.
Look a bit harder, cause the Dragonlords are listed in the table of Contents in the begining of the book.
Hmmm... Never mind.
Ohhhhhhhhh..... BTW, the local store has miniatures now! :D
Originally posted by Voivod
Well, I've started up a Dragonlance campaign. It is all going well, but the one thing that gets to me is that I NEED A GOOD USABLE MAP! Any word on this?
Already answered in another thread.