That's right, Greyhawk Castle is coming soon to a gaming table near you, only it won't be called Castle Greyhawk (for obvious copyright reasons), it will be known as Zagyg's Castle, and will show all pretenders the door.
Info on this momentous project can be found at the messageboards at Pied Piper Puplishing and Troll Lord Games.
Join in the excitement!
Originally posted by monkeybone
Join in the excitement!
I'll judge it by its merit, not by its author.
Originally posted by monkeybone
It only took Gygax thirty some odd years to do it, but as you read this, ol' Mordy himself is putting the legendary adventure to paper.
Uh huh...
We've heard this announcement how many times now? Falls through every time. Until I see it sitting on the shelf at the game store, I'll consider it vaporware.
Besides, I already own it, in the form of Greyhawk Ruins. There's nothing wrong with that version and having a different version invalidate it just because it's by Gygax is, to me, silly.
There's nothing wrong with that version and having a different version invalidate it just because it's by Gygax is, to me, silly.
Gosh, you're right; it's not like Gygax created Greyhawk or anything. How silly of me to think that. Thanks for setting me straight, chatman.
Unless you only use those resources, then Greyhawk is much larger than Gygax alone. For my money, the person who has fleshed out the setting the most, is Carl Sargent.
But regardless, do you use six-gun totin' cowboys or alien spacecraft in your Greyhawk? If not, then you've made a decision not to include everything Gygax wrote about Greyhawk. Wise decision, IMO.
In other words, just 'cause the founder creates it, doesn't mean the followers will buy it. Though I'm sure most of the blind fanboys will, I'll reserve judgement until I see the product for myself, and even then, I'm only considering it because I've never managed to get a copy of Greyhawk Ruins and therefore haven't made the decision to incorporate it or not. If I had, as chat seems to have, then I too wouldn't invalidate it just because Gygax wishes to twenty years down the track...
I liked Greyhawk Ruins and the joke version as each had its merits, but what could Gygax actually build upon after so many years and stories under the bridge? This is like publishing the lost city of Atlantis; the fable would surely out do any imaginative undertaking, no matter who took a stab at it.
And that makes me nervous. To be honest, I'm a little worried that it'll tank. Years of retelling have raised the bar, so to speak. We've all heard the stories from Kuntz and company; any effort to realize the legend could be disastrous if the work wasn't of the highest quality.
Having said that, there's also the fact that gamers who grew up on 1e are now quite sophisticated and expect the same of their modules. It really makes me wonder if Gygax is up to it. If this is another attempt at Isle of the Ape or Dungeonland, he may find a cooler than expected reception awaiting him.
These are the perils of wrestling with one's own legend.
But then, I'm an old school sort and I just love what he did for the game (If I ever comission a bust for my mantlepiece, it'll be Gary). I still have all my 1e books and rerun the old-modules from time to time. No conversion to 3e. I go back to basic D&D just for simplicity's sake.
And now (is it really coincidence?), I read that this long-awaited gem will have a new (or should I say old?) system to herald its arrival. Those die-hard gamers, The Troll Lords, are supposedly going to strip down 3e and take us back to basics. Talk about nostalgia...
But you never know, it could be fun. These days, I look for more simplicity in my life and my gaming is no different. I play 3e, but sometimes I find myself swept away in a torrent of rules; it would be nice to revisit some familiar ground (if only in a modern context).
So perhaps this is the only way Zagyg's Castle could have happened; it had to be realized in its own particular idiom, one that conjured the legendary structure from the stories of old.
In the meantime, I'm holding my breath.
Originally posted by monkeybone
Gosh, you're right; it's not like Gygax created Greyhawk or anything. How silly of me to think that. Thanks for setting me straight, chatman.
I assume you drive a Model T Ford built by ol' Henry himself, after all, it is not concievably possible that anyone but the creator of the modern mass produced automobile could do it right, is it?
Go check out Dragon Annual 2, my friends. There you'll read, from Gygax himself, about the ONE NIGHT of planning that went into the supposed masterpiece.
Then come back and tell me that the published version can't possibly be better, or at least as good.
Sorry if I come off short of patience here, but the idea that only Gygax can do Greyhawk material correctly is insulting to those of us who do it now, whether for publishing by WotC or for the biggest Greyhawk fansite on the net.
What do The Beatles "All you need is love," Kerouac's "The Subterraneans," and Picasso's "Don Quixote" all have in common?
When you figure that out, you'll have my reply.
I am very grateful to GG for creating World of Greyhawk, but it has been a long time since he wrote new material for Greyhawk, and the setting has moved on a lot.
The new writers are very gifted and should be congratulated on what they have added to the setting (eg. Sargent, Holian, Mona and a bunch of others ).
So in short, yeah I'm interested, but I'm not going to buy it without reading some reviews.
Monkeybone, okay, I'll bite. Maybe I'm a bit dim, but what do they have in common? At least give me a hint.
What do The Beatles "All you need is love," Kerouac's "The Subterraneans," and Picasso's "Don Quixote" all have in common?
They're all done in one night? They're not all originals, and they're not all very interesting.
for example, while 'All you need is love' is one of the most well known and most popular songs by the Beatles, it is definitely not one of the best.
Originally posted by monkeybone
That's right, Greyhawk Castle is coming soon to a gaming table near you, only it won't be called Castle Greyhawk (for obvious copyright reasons), it will be known as Zagyg's Castle[.]
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in copyright law, but it seems to me that using "Zagyg" would run into the same copyright problems as using "Greyhawk." (It may avoid a trademark problem, since WotC might not have trademarked "Zagyg," like they have almost certainly trademarked "Greyhawk." Still seems like a copyright problem, though.)
I'm going to agree, also, that just because it's Gygax doesn't make it definitive. The setting has moved beyond any one person.
Scott
Brom wasn't far off the mark; all three were completed in a single sitting. Which is to say, genius is sometimes the result of spontaneous creativity. Whether or not they are masterpieces is, of course, a matter of opinion.
Monkeybone
How exciting, after all these years, to have an offering from the old man himself. I admit that I wasn't the biggest Greyhawk fan in the early days; we simply used it to build upon, but now that I know the setting fairly well, I'm thrilled to go where only the Geneva boys went long ago.
Who can say what monsters and treasures will be found? Who can say what horrors await us in the depths of that long forgotten place? Who can say how the twisted imagination of Zagyg will translate to paper?
Originally posted by monkeybone
Brom wasn't far off the mark; all three were completed in a single sitting.
Sorry, I can't take credit. It was Mr. VanderMeer.
Scott
Originally posted by Delglath
Gygax created one folio, one sourcebook and some adventure modules.
Unless you only use those resources, then Greyhawk is much larger than Gygax alone. For my money, the person who has fleshed out the setting the most, is Carl Sargent.
But regardless, do you use six-gun totin' cowboys or alien spacecraft in your Greyhawk? If not, then you've made a decision not to include everything Gygax wrote about Greyhawk. Wise decision, IMO.
In other words, just 'cause the founder creates it, doesn't mean the followers will buy it. Though I'm sure most of the blind fanboys will, I'll reserve judgement until I see the product for myself, and even then, I'm only considering it because I've never managed to get a copy of Greyhawk Ruins and therefore haven't made the decision to incorporate it or not. If I had, as chat seems to have, then I too wouldn't invalidate it just because Gygax wishes to twenty years down the track...
I agree with the sentiments herein. If it is done really well, I'll buy it. Though, if Gygax is involved...and it is obvious he did some of the work; it will help my decision.
Originally posted by editious
Who can say what monsters and treasures will be found? Who can say what horrors await us in the depths of that long forgotten place? Who can say how the twisted imagination of Zagyg will translate to paper?
If it's true to the original, a bunch of random charts will determine such things.
Originally posted by StevieS
Saucer of milk anyone?
Do me a favor.
If your replies to me have nothing substantial to say, don't bother posting them.
My statement was one of fact, if you have read anything Gygax has ever written about his original games, you will see that the original dungeon was, for the most part, a collection of random encounters placed on maps that were drawn simply to fill out the large sheets of graph paper he was using.
There's nothing inherently wrong with this style of design, but them's the facts.
So if your replies have nothing substantial to say, don't bother posting them, esp the catty little swipes ;)
Originally posted by StevieS
So if your replies have nothing substantial to say, don't bother posting them, esp the catty little swipes ;)
His comment had substance. He was pointing out a fact. You're pointing out his inadquacies. Though he may very well have intended it to be a swipe at Gygax, the fact remains that his post had content, yours do not.
Have you read the more recent stuff that Gygax has put his name on? I'm unimpressed, frankly. I'll forgive EGG for his style three decades ago when the industry was still fresh and young, and the players were generally not as demanding as they are today, but honestly -- based on the more recent material off his I've seen, I'm not expecting much.
As others have mentioned, EGG deserves respect as one of the earliest pioneers of this genre, but he's been far outstripped by others in the 30 years since. IMHO, of course.
Scott
But I the original Greyhawk box set was eclipsed by Forgotten Realms, only to be outdone by Greyhawk and Greyhawk wars in return. Still back then TSR were making up RPG as they went along. FR got sucked into its own bottom, whilst Greyhawk arose resplendent....
Castle Greyhawk - the comedy sucked big time - But then our DM was the same one who blew against the giants....
Of late I have been hankering for some Classic Dungeon Crawling adventures, and there is no more legendry Crawl than Castle Greyhawk!
Bonus points for you!
Even if you think about greyhawk as his own campaign you have to realize that published greyhawk (what Gary wrote about it in the folio and boxed set) was always different from (although based upon) his home campaign
That, in itself, is enough to entice anyone.
That one thing, and then there's the fact that gamers that grew up on 1e are now quite sophisticated, and expect the same of their modules.
The original Gygax modules are far more sophisticated, in most of the ways that make them better, than most of the bloated, 5th-generation material published now.
I am very grateful to GG for creating World of Greyhawk, but it has been a long time since he wrote new material for Greyhawk, and the setting has moved on a lot.
Not a long time at all. His two Mongoose Slayer's Guides and the Gygaxian Fantasy World books are all effectively Greyhawk material.
I must admit having EGGs name on it would get me to buy it just to see what its like, sad but true.
Why sad? What better guide is there to what a new work is like than your feelings about the person's previous work? It's far more reliable than who the publisher is, or some 'review' by someone you don't know.
Originally posted by Faraer
The original Gygax modules are far more sophisticated, in most of the ways that make them better, than most of the bloated, 5th-generation material published now.
I'd be very, very, very interested to see you actually provide a detailed explanation of the hows and whys of that comment that weren't based solely on your predisposition to place Gygax on a pedestal.
His modules were simple and straightforward which, if anything, denotes a lack of imagination or effort put into the product. The ones I've read have very little history or reason to even BE at the place in question aside from, "Let's go hack some stuff!"
That's not necessarily a bad thing. Simplicity can be beautiful, however claiming that his modules were somehow brilliant works of art, carefully and lovingly crafted in order to have subtle genius woven into complex plot threads, is just ridiculous. They were hack'n'slash, pure'n'simple.
Originally posted by monkeybone
Alright then, here's one for you...
What do The Beatles "All you need is love," Kerouac's "The Subterraneans," and Picasso's "Don Quixote" all have in common?
When you figure that out, you'll have my reply.
All kinds of people claim to like them, but no one really does?
That aside, I love Greyhawk. It's the world I always go back to. I might run PS, or DS, or a modern game, but I always return to GH. But I seriously doubt I'll be picking this up. I don't like Gygax's work. (Get your flamethrowers ready. . .) To me, he is like Kevin Siembieda. . . A good idea man. Both should be locked in rooms and forced to come up with ideas, but neither one of them should be allowed to work on the ideas beyond that stage. I have Castle Greyhawk and Ruins, and I don't believe the EGG will be able to improve on them. Not that Ruins is great, but it works for me.I'd be very, very, very interested to see you actually provide a detailed explanation of the hows and whys of that comment that weren't based solely on your predisposition to place Gygax on a pedestal.
I don't even especially *like* his style in the sense of it being that close to my own sensibility, I just respect it as something unique and valuable.
I agree it would be worthwhile to do what you suggest, though you'll agree that the 'Gygax is outdated' argument is also rarely made in any detail.
Gygax's modules are both simple and sophisticated. That's not a rare combination: plenty of books and movies, say, are easy to describe on one level but contain resonances and subtleties that make them continually fruitful and provocative. His campaigns, stereotyped as hack and slash by those wanting to be seen as more 'advanced', manifestly were not, from all accounts, just as they weren't method-acting exercises. Hack and slash isn't the most effective technique in T1-4, and it gets you slaughtered in G1-3. The modules, and the 1980 and 1983 Greyhawk works, were written as catalysts seeded with situations and conflicts that would become exciting and dynamic stories in play.
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Originally Posted by sluggo the sleazebag
Hey there Gary...
Glad to hear that Castle Z is moving right along. How exciting it must be to share it with your fans after all these years. In the meantime, I hope you won't mind fielding a couple design questions.
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What I am working on now is what Rob would call backfill. Seeing as how the original setting for the work can't be used, I am creating a large module with a campaign area of manageable size that's filled with a lot of material that establishes the politics and society of the area, its ecomony and monetary system. There is a walled town, some small communities, a great inn, and all the surrounding terrain is described and keyed for encounters and random ones too, with many adventure hooks and five dungeon-level-like areas that I have yet to flesh out as I await the final monsters list for the C&C rules.
Meantime, Rob is outlining an add-on module that will introduce Zagyg's original residence in the area.
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I'm sure you've had some great ideas pop up over the years. Ideas that, for one reason or another, you couldn't put to paper. What I want to know is: How much of Castle Z will absorb those sudden moments of satori, and how much of it will retain its original splendor?
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The whole of the combined material Rob and I put together would be far too large for publication, 50 levels or so. What I have done is gone back to my original design of more modest scope, because I doubt the work will need to accommodate groups of 20 PCs delving on a daily basis.
As Rob learned from me, he too DMed by the proverbial seat of the pants method. A single line of notes for an encounter was sufficient for wither of us to detail a lengthy description, action, dialog, tricks or traps, and all the rest. As this is not the stuff of modules, we will have to do the same thing as we go over each encounter on the map, actually recording our otherwise extemporized details for the reader.
The most interesting and demanding features of levels will be retained, but the maps will have to be re-drawn from originals. the latter were altered as we merged dungeons, and as PCs interacted with the complex. At one time Robilar, Tenser, and Terik converted the first level of the dungeons to their base.
In short the original upper and lower parts of Castle Greyhawk changed many times over the years they were in active use. What we will do is to take the best of the lot and put that into a detailed format usable by anyone, no "winging-it' required. Noite that it is "Zagyg's Castle", so no tedious explanations of how the denizens of the place got there will be needed.
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I'm also curious as to whether your extensive gaming experience has tempered the encounters therein or have you chosen to preserve the Castle as it first appeared when Robilar and company made their initial forays?
The desire to build upon one's early work is a temptation not easily overcome. You could hardly be condemned for doing so, but I imagine there's a percentage of fans who would hope for either result. What can you share about your design plans so far?
Sincerely,
Sluggo
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To be frank, the castle changed over the years, so "original" is moot. As levels were added by me, new nad different things were introduced. When after a couple of year's of time Rob became my co-DM there was a massive alteration in the upper works of the castle, a whole, massive new 1st level was created, and then the level plan for the expanded lower levels of the dungeon was created anew, with the original levels of my making incorperated with those of Rob's dungeons, plus a number of new ones we created to fill the whole scheme.
Again, what our challenge is going to be is to cull the extraneous, take the best, and re-create the details we made up on the spot. Of course the most famous things will be there, along with most of the best parts that are not well-known through story and word of mouth. Of course, the expanded work's multiple levels will have to be cut back. Having six second level maps is not only impossible for a published work but quite unnecessary for a normal campaign.
Remember, when Castle Greyhawk was in its heyday, groups of 10 or more PCs would adventure in it several times a week, many of the players in each group different from the previous ones.
Cheers,
Gary
Originally posted by UnderToad
An update from the Colonel, via EnWorld...
OK, there's two bit's of Gygax's quote that I feel are relevant:
Originally posted by Gary Gygax
Seeing as how the original setting for the work can't be used, I am creating a large module with a campaign area of manageable size that's filled with a lot of material that establishes the politics and society of the area, its ecomony and monetary system.
and
Originally posted by Gary Gygax
To be frank, the castle changed over the years, so "original" is moot. As levels were added by me, new nad different things were introduced. When after a couple of year's of time Rob became my co-DM there was a massive alteration in the upper works of the castle, a whole, massive new 1st level was created, and then the level plan for the expanded lower levels of the dungeon was created anew, with the original levels of my making incorperated with those of Rob's dungeons, plus a number of new ones we created to fill the whole scheme.
In other words, the idea that this is somehow the lost holy grail of Greyhawk finally being brought to light is nonsense.
I cannot understand how something being completely redone now, FOR ANOTHER, GENERIC, SETTING is somehow intrinsically better than the Greyhawk Ruins version, which was written specifically for Greyhawk. If Gary and Rob's generic mega-dungeon is good, I may grab it, but as I said before, it won't replace Greyhawk Ruins as the dungeon underneath Castle Greyhawk in my game, period.
Just another day at Killjoy Enterprises (tm).
Originally posted by sorcerous sorceress
*sigh*
Just another day at Killjoy Enterprises (tm).
Sheesh. Them's (chatdemon's comments) the facts, lady; deal with 'em.
If anything, this is Gary trying to capitalize on y'all's gullibility and belief that he is somehow better than everyone that has come after him. All praise Gygax, Lord of Gaming
Of course the most famous things will be there
Originally by Gary Gygax
Well, we know some of what to expect. A demon trapped in Bas relief, 9 Demi-gods trapped in one room, (if we get their portfolios, we may be able to translate them to the Greyhawk equivelence), a hallway that teleports to another spot on the planet, various gates to other dimensions.
How those elements fit into a module as a whole is what always fascinated me, so I will definately be picking it up. And I won't consider my "gullibility" to have been exploited unless the above elements are not included.
9 Demi-gods trapped in one room, (if we get their portfolios, we may be able to translate them to the Greyhawk equivelence),
we already know who those "demigods" were in the original game (Iuz, Ralishaz, Trithereon, Erythnul,
Olidammara, Heironeous, Celestian, Hextor, and Obad-Hai).
If anything, this is Gary trying to capitalize on y'all's gullibility and belief that he is somehow better than everyone that has come after him. All praise Gygax, Lord of Gaming
Would you care to substantiate that comment?
If anything, Gygax is in this simply for the enjoyment of gaming. By his own admission, he makes little more than minimum wage for the hours he puts into game design and sees only a modest profit after publishing his work. Not bad for a guy whose name was once synonymous with gaming, lost his company, and came back simply for the enjoyment of his work...
If anything, you are the one calling others gullible. Don't put words in Gygax's mouth. He has respect for the people who buy his products and take the time to write to him. He's conscientious, polite, and thoughtful, and I've never seen the man respond in a petty or rude way, which is more than I can say for you.
Originally posted by monkeybone
If anything, Gygax is in this simply for the enjoyment of gaming. By his own admission, he makes little more than minimum wage for the hours he puts into game design and sees only a modest profit after publishing his work. Not bad for a guy whose name was once synonymous with gaming, lost his company, and came back simply for the enjoyment of his work...
If anything, you are the one calling others gullible. Don't put words in Gygax's mouth. He has respect for the people who buy his products and take the time to write to him. He's conscientious, polite, and thoughtful, and I've never seen the man respond in a petty or rude way, which is more than I can say for you.
You obviously don't know him as well as you think.
...this is Gary trying to capitalize on y'all's gullibility and belief that he is somehow better than everyone that has come after him.
Personally, I was excited to read of Gygax's latest effort since I remember the early days of Greyhawk vividly. Granted, the stories of Castle Greyhawk were not as prevalent as they are today (we didn't have the net, kids...), but there was some excitement in my gaming group as to what the castle might be like.
Anyway, I plan to buy it as soon as it becomes available. I've always enjoyed Gygax's work and he's never let me down. Does that make me "gullible?" I think not. Choose your words more carefully next time.
Anyway, we foraged about and found some cool monsters and even better treasure, but it never compared to what we later read about with the demi-planes and alternate settings/doorways, etc. If Magic Mirror and Dungeonland are any indication of what we should expect, then I am enthusiastic.
There's alot I have missed, though. I only recently started playing RPGs again. I skipped 2e completely (due to college, travel, marriage, and children) and was sad to hear all the details of TSR's downfall, not to mention the bad blood between Gygax and his former company.
Then, after reading these boards, I hear about the Troll Lords and what Gygax is currently planning to do. Frankly, it all sounds so great. More 1e style adventures for those who really remember the glory days of AD&D.
I don't feel foolish for wanting to buy an adventure sight unseen. I can live without reviews because I trust my own judgement. If I go to a movie because I respect its director, why should gaming be any different? I have great memories of the early 1e modules and I don't feel like I'm "being tricked" into buying something.
Which is to say, if a person doesn't like Gygax's style, that's one thing, but his detractors shouldn't make the rest of us feel stupid for appreciating the guy's work.
Originally posted by susurrus
Then, after reading these boards, I hear about the Troll Lords and what Gygax is currently planning to do. Frankly, it all sounds so great. More 1e style adventures for those who really remember the glory days of AD&D.
Yeah, I remember the "glory days", and you know what? Slimmed down d20 lite is not what made it great.
If you want 1st edition feel, play first edition AD&D for god sake.
Deleted the argumentative part for sake of the discussion.
-- Rich
-- Rich
Bah. No dice. If you're going to toss out profoundly stupid and insulting posts, you have no right to demand not to catch flack for them. You talked the talk, now walk the walk.
Originally posted by bogomil
Has-beens? Mindslaves? How pleasant you are. I envy your friends.
Cool, I've always wanted to be envied :D
-- Rich
Scott
Why is that?
First of all, I'm not bothered by the possibility that Gygax is cashing in on his name or the legend of these early adventures. He has every right to do so and, moreover, why shouldn't he? This is something he had planned to do from the beginning but was denied his chance before he could get it off the ground.
Why should we begrudge him the right to do so?
Secondly, should the absence of a Greyhawk label (or even a Wotc label) really matter? Why should it have any bearing on whether Zagyg's Castle will stand on its own as a solid work of gaming?
The fact that we'll finally see this famous adventure, in any form, is reason alone for excitement.
Like others have stated, I will probably buy it without consulting a review. I liked Gygax's work of old and I like his recent work. There's no reason to feel duped simply because the man is trying bring out a product that a great many fans would like to see.
I hope he profits by this move.
Originally posted by Yamo
"Reply to the topic"
Bah. No dice. If you're going to toss out profoundly stupid and insulting posts, you have no right to demand not to catch flack for them. You talked the talk, now walk the walk.
Ok, ok...everyone back to their corners, come back fighting..er discussing nicely. ;)
Who out there doesn't want to profit by their creations? If game designers were so adverse to taking coin for their wares, we'd be left with a bunch of closeted, unknown DMs scribbling madly in their parents' basements. I say whatever the motivation, bring it on. We're not being forced to buy it, are we?
But then, even if we were so lofty and noble to consider these things, the motives for profit are not that diverse. That one man should want to "cash in" on his early creations is not a novel concept, but it is, almost invariably, badly done. That worries me somewhat, especially since I have been looking forward to this release for god knows how many years.
One thing that comforts me is that it won't be a totally new creation based on an older work; what we're getting is actually a refined version of the original, one that should include only the most interesting aspects of a great dungeon crawl that has begun to suffer from hagiography.
Caveat emptor? You bet, but then again, we're not buying a mercedes, and we're not buying from an unknown creator. If it's really good, I may make it the actual castle in my Greyhawk campaign. If it blows, I may take a similar route as Brom, including it in Greyhawk but not as the castle itself.
And yeah, it looks like he's throwing the Troll Lords a bone with a rules-lite system that will work with Zagyg's Castle specifically in mind, but it's strange that Wotc hasn't appraoched him with an offer to do this thing right.
That out of the way, I'm inclined to think that this could either be really rewarding or simply another multi-leveled flop. Am I hoping for the former? Of course I am.
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3236
Scott
Originally posted by ScottyG
Gary has posted some additional information on what should be expected of the castle project here:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3236
Scott
Since you've made it clear I'm not welcome over there, I'll reply here:
Originally posted by Gary Gygax
Please remember that this in not a World of Greyhawk product. That name is the trade mark of WotC, and all the material relating to it is copyrighted by them.
God damn, I hate being proven right all the time....
Should I even bother with the rest of his post?
Hmm, I think I will...
Originally posted by Gary Gygax
Zagyg's Castle is unrelated to their IP.
Just so we're clear, "Their IP" refers to the world of greyhawk campaign setting. Unrelated, his direct quote folks. I couldn't have said it any better myself.
To be honest...thats what I'm seeing.
Originally posted by Greyhack
Since you've made it clear I'm not welcome over there, I'll reply here:
God damn, I hate being proven right all the time....
Should I even bother with the rest of his post?
Hmm, I think I will...
Just so we're clear, "Their IP" refers to the world of greyhawk campaign setting. Unrelated, his direct quote folks. I couldn't have said it any better myself.
For a subject you claim to have little interest in, you sure do a lot of talking about it.
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625
Is it just me or does it seem like Gygax is making a totally new product with nothing at all to do with Greyhawk and then slapping on the name Zagyg just so he can play off the nostalgia of older Greyhawk lovers and sucker them into buying this?
To be honest...thats what I'm seeing.
Thankyou!
That's what I said before and got burnt for it. I'm glad someone else sees what I see...
I like Gygax's work, for the most part, and would probably check this out if and when it hits the shelves. Possibly even buy it. As I've been saying all along though, it won't replace Greyhawk Ruins as the mysterious castle outside of Greyhawk City built by the mad archmage. There's plenty of other places in the flanaess where this could be plugged into that wouldn't conflict with what's already been done.
My only gripe with this is with the folks who say this must be greyhawk canon and that it is somehow better than the so called "crap" that's been put out by others in the meanwhile.
Originally posted by emperor norton
Emperor Norton's interest in this subject is much kindled of late. It is his imperial majesty's opinion that Lord Gygax has proven his worth many times for the free City of Greyhawk and, accordingly, does not beg for table scraps from the unfaithful. Let you, who have soiled his fine name, go begging in the street instead, then you will taste the indifferent wrath of the faceless giant known as internet.
Translation: I'm a gygax fanboy who has no desire to hear anything from fans who may think that there is good greyhawk material that wasn't written by him.
How ya been, Gene? What's with the new nick?
As for your impudence to his royal highness, remember that I grant the right for you to speak that way to lowly gutter-bugs, but heed the dangers of addressing your emperor in such a manner.
Furthermore, you are fortunate that Norton is so comapssionate with his petulant, misguided subjects, otherwise you would serve as pin-cushion to a troop of royal archers.
Absolutely, and here's why...
What makes the castle intrinsically Zagyg's? Is it the environment surrounding the castle? No, of course not. That has nothing to do with the adventure found therein. If it has nothing to do with Greyhawk, then we have to look to another possibility for retaining the name (and at this point, try to think beyond any cynical observations you seem wedded to).
Simply, it is the castle itself that represents Zagyg; it is the physical manifestation of who he is. Everything about the castle suggests his character; its layout, its puzzles, its numerous off-balance challenges that made it the stuff of legend.
One may divorce the castle and its setting, as Gygax has conceded in attempting to bring this creation to print, but it would be idiocy to suggest that if removed from Greyhawk, the castle would lose its intrinsic personality.
Even if you were to place it in the Klingon Empire, it would still be Zagyg's castle.
Besides, what do you care if Greyhawk fans throw away their hard-earned money? What do you care if Gygax is trying to turn a profit on something he created a long time ago?
So don't buy it. Stop worrying about the poor Gygaxian fanboys and get on with your life. The rest of us will enjoy it on its merits, which will be many.
The rest of us will enjoy it on its merits, which will be many.
That remains to be seen.
Emperor Norton's interest in this subject is much kindled of late. It is his imperial majesty's opinion that Lord Gygax has proven his worth many times for the free City of Greyhawk and, accordingly, does not beg for table scraps from the unfaithful. Let you, who have soiled his fine name, go begging in the street instead, then you will taste the indifferent wrath of the faceless giant known as internet.
So called emperor norton, get a grip man. I don't care if you have a shrine devoted to Gygax. It's people with an elitest like attitude such as yours which prevent the GH community from growing. I never liked what was done with Zagyg's castle by Gygax or those who wrote of it later. But that's my opionion!
I think you need to get out their and realize that their are better writers than Gygax out their and that the world still turns even when he's not around. If you want the product because Gygax wrote it or is working on it then fine. But I would not allow myself to be blinded by his so called myth. I will judge the product if and when it is finished.
I would ask you to refrain from your elitest attitude as I would like to see what some new people have to say on these topics and people like you deter from constructive conversation as well as open creativity.
Nuff, Said.
their are better writers than Gygax out their
His royal majesty suggests that you focus upon your own skills in writing before hurling insults at others, especially one so esteemed as Lord Gygax. Furthermore, Emperor Norton will gladly take the time to instruct you in the ways of the written word, if you so wish.
Originally posted by emperor norton
His royal majesty suggests that you focus upon your own skills in writing before hurling insults at others, especially one so esteemed as Lord Gygax. Furthermore, Emperor Norton will gladly take the time to instruct you in the ways of the written word, if you so wish.
How does "there are better writers than gygax out there" translate to "gygax sucks"?
And I tell you what, when you lose the stupid little middle school "I'm going to refer to myself in the 3rd person all the time! That'll sound cool!" schtick, then you can start lecturing the rest of us about proper use of the language, mmkay?
And by the way if you have nothing to add but blathering praise for your idol, try going over to the greyhawk forum at dragonsfoot, they made that forum especially for the "gygax good, everything else bad" crowd, and they wont let anyone like the rest of us question the sheer authority of your statements.
Have fun, and tell the rest of the fanboys we said hi!
And I tell you what, when you lose the stupid little middle school "I'm going to refer to myself in the 3rd person all the time! That'll sound cool!" schtick, then you can start lecturing the rest of us about proper use of the language, mmkay?
I always just assume that the ones who post like that are trolls out to get a rise and ignore them.
I don't understand Gygax fanboys, not like he's a celebrity or rich or anything...he's someguy who made up a game...a good game, but a game. He's not god, the messiah, or even a famous person (on the same level as Ahnold S. or any of those folks).
Oh well, anyways, like I said, I'll buy it if it's cheap. Otherwise I have things that I want way more. Have a nice day.
His royal majesty suggests that you focus upon your own skills in writing before hurling insults at others, especially one so esteemed as Lord Gygax. Furthermore, Emperor Norton will gladly take the time to instruct you in the ways of the written word, if you so wish.
To the so-called emperor norton. I think it's people like you who started this east coast west coast thing (LoL). Let me get good ol' Gygax on the phone and I'll have him write a book similar to L. Ron Hubbard. Then you and those like you can form your own religion, eat some cyanide laced pudding, and wait for the Gygaxian spaceship to send you off to your own delusional world.
Just make sure those daisies grow correctly now! LOL!
Originally posted by the hawk flies high
Gygax has already stated that the castle will not be set in Greyhawk, so you have to ask yourself: If the setting doesn't matter, then why use the name Zagyg? Is it truly relevant?
Absolutely, and here's why...
What makes the castle intrinsically Zagyg's? Is it the environment surrounding the castle? No, of course not. That has nothing to do with the adventure found therein. If it has nothing to do with Greyhawk, then we have to look to another possibility for retaining the name (and at this point, try to think beyond any cynical observations you seem wedded to).
Simply, it is the castle itself that represents Zagyg; it is the physical manifestation of who he is. Everything about the castle suggests his character; its layout, its puzzles, its numerous off-balance challenges that made it the stuff of legend.
One may divorce the castle and its setting, as Gygax has conceded in attempting to bring this creation to print, but it would be idiocy to suggest that if removed from Greyhawk, the castle would lose its intrinsic personality.
Even if you were to place it in the Klingon Empire, it would still be Zagyg's castle.
Ah, yes. One who truly understands. Noble Hawk, Norton commends you for your words of wisdom at such a time as this, for it is paramount to rend the shroud of ignorance on matters so elevated as the coming of Zagyg's Castle. Furthermore, it makes Norton sad that so many would hurl cynical insults in the face of its creator, Lord Gygax, to whom so many owe so much.
As for the rest of my subjects, I can only conclude that they are famished and overworked. The daily toil of life takes its toll on the powers of reason, and for that they are not to be punished but embraced with the compassion only Emperor Norton can bestow upon them.
An emperor's wisdom should not be used to break the spirit of common men, but to guide his people to enlightenment.
Originally posted by emperor norton
Ah, yes. One who truly understands. Noble Hawk, Norton commends you for your words of wisdom at such a time as this, for it is paramount to rend the shroud of ignorance on matters so elevated as the coming of Zagyg's Castle. Furthermore, it makes Norton sad that so many would hurl cynical insults in the face of its creator, Lord Gygax, to whom so many owe so much.
As for the rest of my subjects, I can only conclude that they are famished and overworked. The daily toil of life takes its toll on the powers of reason, and for that they are not to be punished but embraced with the compassion only Emperor Norton can bestow upon them.
An emperor's wisdom should not be used to break the spirit of common men, but to guide his people to enlightenment.
My mom won't let me go to the local gaming store because there are guys there who talk like this (out of the game)...and I don't blame her one bit...
Anyways, he's just trolling, no one is THAT bad...except Wiegel.
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625
My mom won't let me go to the local gaming store because there are guys there who talk like this (out of the game)...and I don't blame her one bit...
So why all the Gygax-bashing? Seems like if you're not interested in the subject, there are plenty of other things to talk about, unless of course there's a motive involved...
It would seem, however, that some on these boards are breathing more than others.
Oh, and Gygax rules.
Originally posted by Argon
Who's bashing Gygax?
That'll be me then. Yggsburgh? YGGSBURGH? What is that man's problem with naming stuff? If it's not unpronouncable it's just plain weird sounding!!
And why does he have to try to get as many letters from his own name into as many words as possible?And like many people, I greatly admire Mr Gygax for (co) creating my favorite game. But this does NOT mean I have to like everything he's ever written. Nor does it mean that I have any great expectations of anything new that he creates, regardless of whether it is for GH or any other setting.
What on earth prompted this? Seriously, Will, it's just a screename. Going off on a tangent about a person's screename is not likely to make other people take you and your comments on other matters more seriously.
Originally posted by Steve_MND
Seriously, Will, it's just a screename. Going off on a tangent about a person's screename is not likely to make other people take you and your comments on other matters more seriously.
Actually it's not a screename. It's the name of the town in Gygax's new module. As he himself has mentioned over on the Dragonsfoot boards.
The main point on the map is the Free Town of Yggsburgh, a walled community of some 25K total population
So before you start deciding whether to take someone's comments seriously, how about taking them in context?
I'm buying it.
Sorry, mea culpa. I got threads mixed up; somebody had a similar screename on another thread I had open at the time, and apparently combined them.
That said, what's the big deal with the name of the town? I have my doubts it has anything to do with Gygax's name. If anything, he probably pulled parts of it from the nordic legend of Yggdrasil, the so-called 'world tree'. Since Yggdrasil was believed to be the center of the universe, it would be fitting as a central point of the module for adventuring out from.
Scott
I've been playing ADnD and other RPGs since the late 90's, so I missed out on the Gary leaving TSR thing. Basically, I don't know enough about the guy to love him or hate him.
I WILL say, though, that if the product he's making is good, then for the new comers like me, we could convert it to become Castle Greyhawk for our campaigns. I don't have access to the old modules and sourcebooks, so if it's a choice between having this new thing that's Gygax's made or having nothing, I'll take what I can get. If it's good, and that's a BIG if.
For those who have been around for a while and don't like the change, or already have a Castle Greyhawk concept in place, then it can be just another location somewhere else in the world, as has already been said. Or you can simply leave it out altogether, since it isn't intrinsically set in the World of Greyhawk anyway.
If the product tanks, though, I doubt anyone with good sense will buy it anyway.
Just my two coppers.
-wn
Can I say that I like everything the man has written? No, of course not. I have no idea if he writes articulately to his friends, nor do I know if his Christmas cards are sincere or generous in their sentiments.
But as for his work in gaming, then yes, I can say that I have enjoyed everything he has written, even the spaceship module. In fact, my Greyhawk folio is so dog-eared and weather-beaten that I have had to replace it more than once, and the same rings true of his modules, which I have run countless times with different groups of friends.
Am I looking forward to the release of Zagyg's castle? That's a good question, because I really liked the effort put into Greyhawk Ruins. While not a Gygax module, it has the feeling and element of Gary's original work, all the while retaining the legends of Greyhawk as they should have been preserved for such an instant classic.
Of course, I wish Gygax had gotten there first. But in a sense, he did, and now we're arriving late to the party...
I suppose the stories of gaming are not unlike those of mythology; that everyone eventually tries their hand at a retelling. And that's what this will be, yet another go at the legend of Greyhawk castle. Does it matter that Gygax is the one writing it? For me, it does, and that's why I will buy it.
But will it replace Greyhawk Ruins in my campaign? Another good question, to which I can only say: We seem to forget that Greyhawk Ruins was itself a replacement, a stand-in for a no-show that never arrived; that is, until now, and the fact that we even have a choice whether or not to use it is exciting for me.
Anyway, those are my two bits.
I think I heard some of the C&C people say that this system is not "D20 lite" but a completely different system built using the OGl. Could be wrong.
So, how hard is it going to be to convert to D20? It's one thing to have EGG write stuff for D20, another thing if
- it can't really use *any* Greyhawk references
- it's for another game system entirely
- isn't really Castle Greyhawk but a new town, countryside, etc. contained in what, 8 books spread out over two years.
I just don't see how anyone would consider this in anyway Greyhawk "cannon". Might as well consider all the "Ljendary Journey" stuff as Greyhawk cannon also since EGG wrote it. As far as buying it, I will look at it but it has to be pretty spectacular before I buy any of it.
bushfire
Like we've never converted anything in our lives. Please...
And as I stated in an earlier post, it doesn't matter where you place it, be it an alternate universe or your own backyard, it's still going to be Zagyg's Castle.
And as I stated in an earlier post, it doesn't matter where you place it, be it an alternate universe or your own backyard, it's still going to be Zagyg's Castle.
Well, that's just it, isn't it? Identity is everything. The country side could be stripped away, you could put the castle on the moon and slap a different name on it altogether, but it would still be Zagyg's.
Reminds me of something I read about the Beatles. Supposedly just before the break-up, Paul McCartney suggested that the group put on costumes and go out to play anonymously in small clubs, to get back to their roots and all. Upon hearing this, Lennon just laughed and said "They'd still know it was us, Paul."
And i am sad to wrote that, as others wrote it, it looks like some kind of marketing to "recuperate" Greyhawkers fans.
It may be a good module, but it if wasn't from Gygax, would we speak about it here? This module has nothing to do with greryhawk, and are some of greyhawk fans so addicted they will buy anything because zagyg is mentionned somewhere? why not zagyg's sockets or mordenkainen's slip?
I don't like that, sorry, i don't want to break the dreams of the one who hopes a spark of Greyhawk is still alive (i won't be able to even if i wanted to) commercialy speaking, of course. ;)
This thread make me realize how much people love the World of Greyhawk better than any else threads.
Originally posted by The Hawk Flies High
Gygax has already stated that the castle will not be set in Greyhawk, so you have to ask yourself: If the setting doesn't matter, then why use the name Zagyg? Is it truly relevant?
Absolutely, and here's why...
What makes the castle intrinsically Zagyg's? Is it the environment surrounding the castle? No, of course not. That has nothing to do with the adventure found therein. If it has nothing to do with Greyhawk, then we have to look to another possibility for retaining the name (and at this point, try to think beyond any cynical observations you seem wedded to).
Simply, it is the castle itself that represents Zagyg; it is the physical manifestation of who he is. Everything about the castle suggests his character; its layout, its puzzles, its numerous off-balance challenges that made it the stuff of legend.
One may divorce the castle and its setting, as Gygax has conceded in attempting to bring this creation to print, but it would be idiocy to suggest that if removed from Greyhawk, the castle would lose its intrinsic personality.
Even if you were to place it in the Klingon Empire, it would still be Zagyg's castle.
Originally posted by bushfire
I think people are also missing the fact that these books will not be D&D 3E or even D20 or even OD&D but the new C&C "lite" system.
D20 is still D20, no matter how much of an exercise program you put it on or try to change it's name to something retro sounding.
As I said before, if you want "1e Feel", play 1e, style of play and story and setting are not system dependent, and no matter how hard it tries, d20 cannot replicate 1e mechanics. Sorry Troll Lords!
Originally posted by Steve_MND
That said, what's the big deal with the name of the town? I have my doubts it has anything to do with Gygax's name.
Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine with Gygax's work. And the chances of it being something to do with his own name are not that slim, particularly if you bear in mind that Zagyg is simply Gygax pronounced (not spelt) backwards.
Understood. Random-letter names tend to weaken the suspension of disbelief for me as well. However, I just don't see that here. "Burgh" is a common enough town suffix, and Yggs is close enough to Yggdrasil to lead me to believe it probably wasn't a coincidence.
As to Gygax using his own name (and the name of so many others) in his material, I just chalk it up to the time when many of these things were developed -- thirty years ago, as part of a home game. Gamers today tend to be more 'sophisticated' in their expectations, especially with a published product.
I suspect most of our first-time game words, were they to be done with virtually no previous experience in or familiarity with the genre, would also tend to have some elements that ranged from questionable to downright silly.
It seems to me he's just saying it has nothing to do with Greyhawk so he can avoid being sued for breach of copyright.
The idea of profiteering by freelance-writing RPG material is laughable.
I love the use of anagrams and such in Gygax's names, it's a nice extra textual dimension to the material. Nothing unsophisticated about it, it just happens to be out of vogue.
You’ll get self serving recommendations and links to read Joe Blow’s newest contribution to the setting, but attach Gygax’s name to something and sight unseen any connection to Greyhawk is decried.
Ultimately, it will be as ‘Greyhawk’ as you want it to be, just like all of the other available material out there. You’ve already made up your mind that it’s a gimmick to cash in, or not Greyhawl related, that’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinions, but since there is no one Greyhawk, and we’re all entitled to our own opinions, spare the rest of us your prattle.
Zagyg’s Castle will not be a collection of new material with a familiar name slapped on it to cash in on Greyhawk fans. The majority of the material is derived directly from Gary and Rob’s original Greyhawk campaign, material that many long-time gamers have been waiting to see for 25 or more years. That goes for the town and wilderness material as well as the dungeon itself. Yggsburgh will be much smaller than Greyhawk City, but the locations detailed are based on areas where much of the action occurred in Gary’s Greyhawk City. The town can be dissected and the detailed locations can be easily inserted into any existing city, or you can choose to use the town as is.
The dungeons will take the best out of an enormous amount of material, and anybody familiar with the early history of the setting will recognize many much-discussed locations and encounters.
The first part is just about complete. Early summer of ’04 is when I hope to see it on the shelves.
Scott
I think that the majority of people out there are like me...
1st. we tremendously respect Gary, for what he ahs done and for his talants.... but admit that he is not a god, and that some of his products have been not as goood as other products of his.
2nd. we plan to judge the product by its quality, not by the name on the cover.
3rd. we do not consider it Greyhawk material nor the "real" castle greyhawk simply because it has Gary's name on it. if it is good enough to buy we will probably try to fnd a way to work it into our campaigns, though not nessecarily as castle greyhawk... (like many others here I already use greyhawk ruins for that purpose).
Originally posted by ScottyG
You’ve already made up your mind that it’s a gimmick to cash in, or not Greyhawl related, that’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinions, but since there is no one Greyhawk, and we’re all entitled to our own opinions, spare the rest of us your prattle.
Excuse me?
Originally posted by GARY GYGAX (not chatdemon)
Please remember that this in not a World of Greyhawk product. That name is the trade mark of WotC, and all the material relating to it is copyrighted by them.
Originally posted by GARY GYGAX (not chatdemon)
Zagyg's Castle is unrelated to their IP.
I did not say CZ is not greyhawk, its AUTHOR did!
Yes, Scotty, it is perfectly clear to me who the blind fanatics are...
Originally posted by ScottyG
You’ll get self serving recommendations and links to read Joe Blow’s newest contribution to the setting
Off hand, I can't even remember who the author of Greyhawk Ruins is, but the point is, it wasn't me, so how exactly does defending that work as the official Zagyg's Castle for the current Greyhawk setting qualify as self serving?
Remember, all editions of Greyhawk are discussed and enjoyed here, we don't have some lackwit moderator defining what greyhawk is because big bad chatdemon dared to post a link to something that mentioned the name Monte Cook.
Take your martyr act back to your chums at DF, Scotty, they, at least, will listen to you.
Originally posted by ScottyG
I know you can’t say a good thing about Gygax and his work around here without the fanboy and sycophant labels flying, but it’s clear who the real blind fanatics are. You can talk about all the drivel you want, but you mention Gygax and you get the same bunch of posters pouncing on you and the thread and bashing Gygax with fanatical zealousness, blind to the hypocrisy of their own accusations.
I have never bashed the man himself.
In terms of the foundation of the Greyhawk setting and 1e products for Greyhawk, I do respect Gygax's opinion on the matter. If you've read my thoughts on Living Greyhawk Geoff in another thread here, I actually even (gasp) deride the Living Greyhawk crew and Sargent for ignoring Gygax's canon on that nation.
No, my friend, blind fanatic, to me, is more someone who feels the need to customize the rules of his forum to specifically keep out certain people who may post a link to an article that, despite its author's professed admiration or Gygax and attempt to pay an homage, dared to mention Monte Cook and didn't toe the line of what you and your greyhawk thought police buddies consider proper greyhawk.
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
1st. we tremendously respect Gary, for what he ahs done and for his talants.... but admit that he is not a god, and that some of his products have been not as goood as other products of his.
Sure! I have great respect for Gygax as the cocreator of D&D and creator of AD&D. I have great respect for his adventure writing in the day, and have often espoused one of his modules, Keep on the Borderlands as what I believe to be the best adventure TSR ever did. I have great respect for him as the creator of the Greyhawk setting and will fall back on his material in the cases that nothing more interesting has come later to supercede it.
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
2nd. we plan to judge the product by its quality, not by the name on the cover.
3rd. we do not consider it Greyhawk material nor the "real" castle greyhawk simply because it has Gary's name on it. if it is good enough to buy we will probably try to fnd a way to work it into our campaigns, though not nessecarily as castle greyhawk... (like many others here I already use greyhawk ruins for that purpose).
Exactly.
Originally posted by ScottyG
I know you can’t say a good thing about Gygax and his work around here without the fanboy and sycophant labels flying, but it’s clear who the real blind fanatics are. You can talk about all the drivel you want, but you mention Gygax and you get the same bunch of posters pouncing on you and the thread and bashing Gygax with fanatical zealousness, blind to the hypocrisy of their own accusations.
You’ll get self serving recommendations and links to read Joe Blow’s newest contribution to the setting, but attach Gygax’s name to something and sight unseen any connection to Greyhawk is decried.
Ultimately, it will be as ‘Greyhawk’ as you want it to be, just like all of the other available material out there. You’ve already made up your mind that it’s a gimmick to cash in, or not Greyhawl related, that’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinions, but since there is no one Greyhawk, and we’re all entitled to our own opinions, spare the rest of us your prattle.
Zagyg’s Castle will not be a collection of new material with a familiar name slapped on it to cash in on Greyhawk fans. The majority of the material is derived directly from Gary and Rob’s original Greyhawk campaign, material that many long-time gamers have been waiting to see for 25 or more years. That goes for the town and wilderness material as well as the dungeon itself. Yggsburgh will be much smaller than Greyhawk City, but the locations detailed are based on areas where much of the action occurred in Gary’s Greyhawk City. The town can be dissected and the detailed locations can be easily inserted into any existing city, or you can choose to use the town as is.
The dungeons will take the best out of an enormous amount of material, and anybody familiar with the early history of the setting will recognize many much-discussed locations and encounters.
The first part is just about complete. Early summer of ’04 is when I hope to see it on the shelves.
Scott
Who the hell is Joe Blow...was he any good?Originally posted by Steve_MND
Random-letter names tend to weaken the suspension of disbelief for me as well.
For me they don't. Think of all the non-sensical, weird, silly sounding names that exist in our world. If anything, it adds to suspension of disbelief for me.
Originally posted by ScottyG
I know you can’t say a good thing about Gygax and his work around here without the fanboy and sycophant labels flying, but it’s clear who the real blind fanatics are.
Bullywug dung! You can praise Gygax all you want without any labels flying whatsoever. However when you OVERLY praise him, then, uuhh... yeah, expect it... I mean, that's virtually the definition of being a friggin sycophant, what do you expect?
Then there's also the fact that you moderate on a forum devoted to Gygax...
Originally posted by ScottyG
You can talk about all the drivel you want, but you mention Gygax and you get the same bunch of posters pouncing on you and the thread and bashing Gygax with fanatical zealousness, blind to the hypocrisy of their own accusations.
This question has already been asked, but not answered. Just WHO is bashing Gygax? I want to see you point out the poster and quote the reference.
Originally posted by ScottyG
You’ll get self serving recommendations and links to read Joe Blow’s newest contribution to the setting, but attach Gygax’s name to something and sight unseen any connection to Greyhawk is decried.
Wow that's gutless. Be a man and actually come out and point fingers instead of beating around the bush. At the end of the day, we know you mean Canonfire and it's associates, so why be such a wuss and not say as much?
Originally posted by ScottyG
Ultimately, it will be as ‘Greyhawk’ as you want it to be, just like all of the other available material out there. You’ve already made up your mind that it’s a gimmick to cash in, or not Greyhawl related, that’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinions, but since there is no one Greyhawk, and we’re all entitled to our own opinions, spare the rest of us your prattle.
I haven't made up my mind about anything. Except maybe that I don't like you very much, but aside from that, I'll judge the product on its merits. I do, however, believe that it's a cheap attempt to cash-in on the sympathies and longings of Greyhawk fans, especially the die-hards like yourself, however as someone else said in another thread, good material is good material. If it's good material and I think it meshes with my vision of Greyhawk, I'll use it and may even praise it, however I won't consider it Greyhawk JUST because Gygax made it, like you and many others are.
Originally posted by ScottyG
Zagyg’s Castle will not be a collection of new material with a familiar name slapped on it to cash in on Greyhawk fans.
Wait... now you're agreeing with us? Sheesh! Make up yer mind already!
Yes, but the difference there is that the "non-sensical, weird, silly sounding names" just sound silly to us. If we look at the names of cities and towns and such historically, they virtually always have a linguistic root that makes sense somewhere back along the line when they were first named.
That's why "Yggsburgh" doesn't bother me like it did Wil. It appears that there's actually a linguistic root to the name in there, tenuous as it is. Now, city names like "Xggygrak" or "Zoltifel" or the like tend to strain it a little for me.
Personal preferences, I suppose.
"I do, however, believe that it's a cheap attempt to cash-in on the sympathies and longings of Greyhawk fans,"
I'm not sure I'd go that far, but when reading one of EGG's posts, he mentioned that ruins are located not too far away from a great metropolis called Dunfalcon City. Dunfalcon City? It's obviously tied in as close to the Greyhawk setting as he can get without violating copyrights, but whether he's doing that as a means to present his version of GH to the fans, or whether he's doing it to enhance sales by capitalizing on his name, I'll leave to historians.
As for whether it will replace Greyhawk castle, I'll probably sidestep that issue in my campaign. After all, it's not Greyhawk castle, it's Zagyg's castle, and who's to say he didn't have more than one? ;)
-wn
I will finally have Castle Greyhawk to put my players through. I couldn't be happier. Between that and Sir Robilar's City of Brass I"m happier than a pig wallowing in his own filth.
*Actually if C&C is a nice simplified D20 game w/o all the mega-kung fu action feats, endless Prc's and the overdetalied combat and other stuff I dislike from 3.xE I may just play that. We'll see. Go Troll Lords!
:D
I have never used WG7 or WGR4 as the basis for my Castle Greyhawk. I returned both books to the bookstore where I bought most of my 80s D&D stuff---both among the very few D&D purchases I ever returned---equally disappointed in both products. At the time, I was looking for the authentic Gygax & Kuntz Castle, and wasn't satisfied with either book; now I wish that I had kept both, since I've learned how both can be put to excellent and diverse uses by talented DMs.
Today, I prefer my seventeen-levels-deep version of the Castle, with its 41 total levels and sublevels, elevators, chute traps, mirror-image teleport-trap levels, dragon's lair cavern, etc. I certainly haven't detailed the whole thing, and I have, when the mood so struck me, appropriated bits and pieces from various other castles, dungeons, and what not into my version of the Castle. That appropriation has included: materials from articles that mention details about the G&K Castle; EX1, EX2, and WG6; other "authentic" GH sources (Underworld & Wilderness, Greyhawk, 1e DMG, etc.); as well as stridently non-GHworks such as levels built using the dungeon geomorphs, Undermountain and it's lore as published in Dragon by Ed Greenwood, Dave Arneson's Blackmoor Castle, bits and pieces of Rappan Athuk (by Necromance Games), and elements stolen from fictions by J. Eric Holmes, Michael Moorcock, Jorge Luis Borges, H.P. Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, and the visual works of M. C. Escher and Salvador Dali.
I look forward to doing the exact same cannibalistic process with the materials that Gary and Rob publish. No one's work replaces my Castle, regardless of its source. That said, I'm happy to incorporate worthy materials into my castle, since at last count I've only designed about a fifth of the total levels of the place ;)