I guess what seems to be bothering about this is that we think that we're the only ones who can treat the Planescapiness of Planescape with the delicacy and depth that it truly deserves. And to a degree, that's right. Someone who only plays Forgotten Realms might *gasp* not even consider Lower Planar politics when he places a Bebelith under the command of a Pit Fiend who, for some reason, finds the takeover of a single Prime nation to be of supreme importance. We might say that the player is guilty of employing game devices which he doesn't understand, and therefore should not incorporate them into his campaign. What I think we're afraid of is that our little multiverse might be ruined by improper use by people who don't take the time to understand the depth of its development. But, really, should they have to? D&D is their game, too, and I guess they should be free to do whatever they want with their own campaign.
And another note: Planescape "borrows" aspects of other games all the time. Actually, that's what makes it so great. It has the depth of every other campaign setting combined, plus so much more. If they incorporate a little PS into their game, so much the better for them. Just make sure you keep those grubby mitts off of the tieflings, aasimar, and genasi and leave 'em in Sigil where they belong... :D
Am I the only one who thinks that this happens? Anyone care to discuss?
The usual things that get on my nerves are FR players who ask such things as why Mystra didn't just kill Asmodeus, why Ao doesn't kill The Lady of Pain, etc etc.
I also admit to having felt snubbed by the recent creation of a new Slaadi Lord in an FR adventure set in FR.
Generally speaking, I've found that far far too many FR players are utterly ignorant of the planes unless its been printed in horridly abridged fashion in an FR book.
It's probably wrong of me, but I've had experience with players who brought FR characters into Planescape and had serious problems getting into their new roles as little fish in a big pond. *shrug*
I usually don't have problems with it, unless the use of all things planar does something that shows blatant ignorance on planar politics as noted in Factol Rhys's post. Some uses however I've found interesting and fun.
For example, in FR I've found the use of Narfell and Raumanthar, two heavily magic using empires, and their downfall that involved the summoning of an avatar of Kossuth to be interesting. I've found the heavy influence of Kossuth in parts of Toril to be curious. The inner planar powers have always been indifferent to their mortal worshippers, largely because their nature differs so much from the outer planar powers. Exploring this potential blip in the radar could be interesting both on FR and on the planes in general.
Ravenloft gave us an infinately fun and curious roving demiplane to ply the ethereal with.
Dealing with things planar can be hit or miss for some campaign settings, but typically its more often problems with the players of those settings being ignorant. And thats not something that Planescape players have been free from either. However in my experience, Planescape tends to attract more veteran players with better RP experience, and well, they tend to be more intelligent and more skilled. Not to hit on other settings, but its something I've noticed. The focus of Planescape is different from most other settings.
But then again that's why we're sticking to our guns and playing PS, even though it's not supported by WotC. We're doing it ourselves, at home or on Planewalker.com. I'm saddened that the average gamer didn't quite catch on the the Cant and that the 800lb. gorilla that is FR took the Planetouched (yes I said took) and incorporated them as if they were a purely Faerunian concept. So we Lord our Planar "worldlyness" over the Clueless. Life's rough in the Multiverse. Grow thick skin or check into the Gatehouse. Cause while we may be mostly Veteran RP'ers and older experienced PC's and DM's, we're still philosophers with Clubs!!!
My current group, about a year into the plot of the campaign are all relative or utter n00bs to all things Planescape, except for one player.
They've risen to the challange though and I've hooked them on it. *cackle*
If at all possible I'll be trying to run some Planescape games at GenCon next year, and I've run a oneshot game this year in August for an Enworld.org game meet in NC. So I'm doing my best to spread the word to the gaming gentiles.
Saint Shemeska... I like the ironic ring of that...
And I can't call myself experienced really, just full of zeal. I only got into gaming after 3e had already been out for a month or two. And Planescape had already been cancelled.
And of course the arogance of the FR players bothers me, we all ought to know that all the cool stuff in FR is stolen from PS (or is overdone and from Greyhawk [drow]). But I also don't like the brutal slaughter of the traditional image of real world deities (some of this is PS and some of it is FR), like for example who's the leather headed sod who made Tyr blind? He was missing a hand, that's all, and as for him being LN, he was the Patron god of Berzerkers!?! *continues to mumble about Norse and Greek Mythology*
But when some little FR whipper snapper asks somehting setting specific on a D&D forum it really gets up my nose, I mean the little biters have their own forum. And not the way PS has it's own forum, or even the way Cthulu has it's own forum, but the way Star Wars has it's own forum. And then they post somehtign that directly concerns FRCS or some other book in the D&D general section, that's wrong.
I'm actually happy that certain planar monsters have made it into core D&D (the babau and the gith alone in the 3.5 MM almost made it worth the stupid new rules and the excessive price for me), because it means that I won't have to buy a book that spends most of it's time updating the stats for Uber-Munchkin-hero no. 37 (or the whole "let's take an existing monster and give it magic missiles!" plan), just to get some fiend stats.
The planes are core now, we just need a few obscure cirtters, planes, Sigil, and the flavor.
Planetouched are -planetouched-, not Realms-touched. The ONLY creatures that should be noted in FR books aside from "Go look in this core book here" should be FR-only creatures, like the tall mouther or the Bane lich. This should be true of all books.
Also, Planescape as a setting is only 'seperate' from the other settings (At least in 2e, when things made sense), because of Sigil. Everything else in PS was a part of the other settings, and largely still is. D&D is -all one multiverse-. Everything in the game is connected. Planescape's topic is the link itself.
I must agree, though, I find it ironic how FR folk, and some other setting enthusiasts, actually -act- like the stereotypical clueless primes in some senses. Someone asked a question in the bloody Mature boards, asking "In the FRCS, how would..."
*shrugs*
The Wheel is just the dreams of the maggots of the Material the Source cast off long ago, and Sigil is just the center of the hopes of vermin.
..Just nobody tell the Lady I said that.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
Generally speaking, I've found that far far too many FR players are utterly ignorant of the planes unless its been printed in horridly abridged fashion in an FR book.
It's really ironic that you should mention that. According to the Planescape books (mostly the Planewalker's Handbook), Faerun is, of all the Prime worlds, the one most in tune with the Multiverse. But then have you read the 3e FR cosmology? Ick. First thing I thought when I looked at it was "That's not the way the planes are."
I'll agree that it's incredibly annoying to see things like genasi and tieflings presented as if they're FR exclusive or whatever else exclusive. Grr. I was quite annoyed that abishai weren't featured outside of Monsters of Faerun. I also think that the Manual of the Planes could've included stat blocks on more yugoloths than just the four it had, rather than waiting to include them in MM2. If you're going to give the Clueless a book to run a planar adventure on, give them a good lot of creatures to work with. I don't think reprints of the MM1 baatezu and tanar'ri could've hurt either.
I think what annoys me most is when the Clueless parade onto the planar discussions and try to act like they know it all. This doesn't happen so much here in the PS boards but over at the MotP board...The sodding berks are everywhere. Every time I think of the thread where they try to apply alignment to the Positive and Negative and try to justify diseases being some form of "negative life" I twitch horribly. *twitchtwitch* Or that leatherhead who suggested that horrible deity-resurrection idea. *twitches s'more*
I suppose I'm more of a PS snob than I really thought =\ Is that good or bad?
"Applying morality to energy is foolishness that only prime vermin and their offspring would suggest. There is no 'good' or 'bad' of it, there is simply being right, and being wrong. After all, we don't bother with such notions as 'good' here."
Originally posted by Factol Rhys
Am I the only one who thinks that this happens? Anyone care to discuss?
It happens, and it happens in other worlds as well. Fans of FR, GH, DL, DS, and SJ are all guilty of this in one form or another. Being more of an SJ fan, I sometimes grind my teeth a little when people talk about what they want SJ to be, but when you boil it down, it really has nothing to do with SJ other than maybe stealing a few odd-shaped flying ships, maybe a race or two (which were originally imported to SJ from Star Frontiers!
) and inserting them into Dragonstar. I've seen nasty debates explode in other forums over what is and what isn't, say, Greyhawk or Dragonlance. So don't fret over it...it's not exclusively a PS problem ;)PS is the best setting out there but it takes exceptional DMs and just as importantly exceptional players to make it work.
Long live PS. And keep it alive.
Then I learned about Planescape. I love Planescape. Everything I've read about the setting sucks me in. Heck, just reading the Manual of the Planes sucked me in and you all say its flavorless. ::Shrug:: I just like a setting where there's so much mystery, where there is no one correct way of seeing things, I like it when the writer of the information goes "But nobody knows."
I don't have any setting hubris. I've been thinking of how to incorporate fiendish and celestiial races into Dragonlance. Its an untouched topic really. According to the Core Dragonlance cosmology which, while not fitting the OLD official cosmology, does fit the cosmology as presented in the novels there is one Upper Plane, one Lower plane, and one Plane of Neutrality. Now, a simple glance reveals that the Planescape arrangement of Celestials and Fiends does not fit. I know that using PS-tyle creature sin a non-PS world with a completely different outlook ont he universe is anathema to PS-ers. Baatezu without strict heirarchies?! Demons who work together?! A Barbazu who doesn't scheme to overthrow his Gelugon commander?! BLASPHEMOUS! JUST CHILL OUT! Woosh.
But in any case, I do understand one thing about the PS snobbery. In fact, I may feel it twice. Those damn FR-ers. Thinking that the world revolves around them. BAH!
Personaly i think that FR is great but a little dry, and horible when it comes to it's cosmology "shudder", and i have completly droped it for the Great Ring. even though i am still new to PS and i have little snobbery for it i see why the why other do.
i remember one time especialy that i would have loved to have a good PS vetran on hand. Ok, my freind went on some adventure( cant remember though) and he was forced to either jump into a portal or fight a great enemy. he jumped through the portal and found himself in sigil. now i was finaly going to use PS but he decided that sigil was only good for buying things and Nothing else!! so he treid every quick fix available to leave and wound up dead
now i know i shouldent be happy, but... well, were was i.. oh yes, must have got side tracked in my babaling.
so needless to say i think that yes i do see alot of Planescape hubris, but they have the right.
sigh .. now if i could only show my freinds, and then i could leave Toril behind,... for a while anyways