Why is there such virulent (yes I used a thesauras program to find the correct word) feelings about gnomes on this board?
Again, I am only familiar with the 1e game, and I think gnomes and haflings are pretty redundant, (of course, there are 10 kinds of giants between FF, MM & MMII) but I don't understand why gnomes receive so much abuse.
Scott
To me, they fulfill no role that cannot be filled by dwarves and since I like dwarves, gnomes are more than just redundant, they're annoying since they get in the way of placing my dwarves.
But it's more than that... they're boring. They do what, exactly, aside from giggle and s**t? They have no depth, no personality, no function and, quite frankly, they're just silly.
Halflings I can accept and even then ONLY the 3e version of them (kenders have personality... personality goes a long way...) as I despise the whole furry feet, lovey-dovey, "Let's take three months to leave the shire after we've just been told our lives are in mortal danger and we must leave ASAP!" Tolkien halflings. But then, I have a soft spot for underdogs. Halflings are like the scum of human society who feed off the left-overs and scraps thrown them and do all the demeaning jobs in a medieval city which is why so many turn to crime. This makes them remotely interesting whereas gnomes steal all their traits from dwarves and halflings and have weird fetishes for small animals... SICK I TELL YOU, SICK!
Have you, honestly, ever known a gnome character that you've liked?
Now the techno-trickster/tinkerer/illusionist paradigm is really silly to me. I don't like that construction. We feel there are other, better race and class combinations that can effect whatever a gnome can do with more sobriety.
I can tolerate halflings in the Tolkein construct, but not the "Willow"-pech style midgets in the Val Kilmer movie. The Kender, now that's a rich and kinetic race. I really like and enjoy a well-roleplayed Kender.
We have excised the gnome from our Greyhawk setting. It's not that hard of an adjustment, but maybe we are just use to it.
Gnomes compensate for their small size by using their brains. They love to tinker. The problem is the typical stereotype calls for huge steampowered contraptions that do absolutely nothing. Krynn Tinker gnomes are not the gnomes of Greyhawk. DMs see gnomes as a threat because they introduce technology into their medieval setting. It doesn't need to be that way. I see the gnomes more like clockmakers, gemcutters, mapmakers, gardeners, librarians and locksmiths. They are good with small moving parts and refined work. They make great intellects too.
Gnomes are different from Dwarves because they aren't greedy and surly like their cousins. They also embrace magic rather then fear it. Gnomes have a "joy de vivre" that the dwarves only find when digging for mithril or forging weapons. This inclination has earned them a reputation as a bunch of practical jokers because they don't take life as seriously as the other races. Truth be told, they are just happier then everybody else.
Gnomes are not halflings. Not Tolkien halflings or Kenders. Halflings rely on stealth and quickness for surviving in the big person world. Gnomes rely on their magic and brains. I'm not saying that one excludes the other but simply that gnomes will think their way out as opposed to halfling who will sneak their way out.
Give gnomes a break. It's hard to take life seriously when the half-orc party member threatens to load you on the catapult once you fixed it. "Hey you big green gorilla, sit in this nice comfortable seat." Pull lever.
Have you, honestly, ever known a gnome character that you've liked?
Originally asked by delglath
Prit from Desert of Desolation -- Tomb of Amun Re
He was insane, thought his spoon was magical and could be used as a weapon, and was a very charming little guy.
Unfortuneately, he was hungry, and when we threw a pineapple to him, it blew up. I didn't know, honestly.
DEATH TO HALFLINGS!!!! POWER TO THE GNOMISH OVERLORDS!!!
Originally posted by Tai Khan
...I generally think of high midget hippies when I play or run my gnomes.
'nuff said.
My guess is the reason no one likes gnomes is that no game writer has liked gnomes. Thus there is little interesting material.
Another theory - Gnomes are the only non-Tolkien derived race. Thus they are lacking in a popular mythological background.
Well the Flinty Hills are a gnomish land, despite any claims that humans or humanoids may say they have to it.
There is also Grossetgrottel and it's vicinity that is almost exclusively gnomish, and it's just north of Greyhawk.
Halber
If you would like to see what I did with the gnome's of Oerth. Just visit canonfire.com and read my article. Whether your a gnome fan or not tell me what you think !
It is even rumored that this is one of the reasons gnomes began taking homes in the mountains and hills. As it helped prevent the elvin people from obtaining information the gnomish people did not wish them to have.
The elves still weary from their wars with the dwarves were hard pressed to trespass on lands that were considered dwarven. As such many races to come after has often mistaken gnomes for dwarven cousins. While no gnome will admit it. This has served their cause in preventing other races from obtaining such information as well.
The dwarves showed an interest initially but were discourged when they were told the elves just wanted secrets of the gnomish laws of magic. The dwarves decided that the foul elvish magic did not need any advantage to making it worse and allowed the gnomes to settle into some of their lands.
The other point which brought the dwarven and gnomish people closer together was the threat of the trollish peoples. Dwarves were the favorite victums of trollish raids. The gnomes shared information with the dwarven race which gave them useful military information about one of their enemy's.
Hope this helps people sort out a little place in their campaign for the gnomish people.
Roger Moore wrote a wonderful series of articles on both the gnomish point of view and the gods of the gnomes. Dragon #61. It's worth a look, so check it out if you can find it.
Ironically, gnomes are perhaps the most tolerant of the demi-human races, and would be the last to lash out at another race, even if they were chaotic evil.
I can't tolerate Racial Profiling!!
If you havent met a gnome you've liked that a problem with the player not the gnome!
Attention All Races !!!
Your wait is over!
You have been joined by Tabular Magmus Thunderpuck Xll
Evoker/Guildmage of great renoun, destroyer of the red dragon Farharsk, infultrator of the Pomarj, recoverer of the Cup of Santiago, four time blue ribbon holder in annual pie eating contest, drow feared, blessed with blueberry scones of healing recipe by Bahamut and champion of Dyvers.
I'm also quite humble.
Perhaps you've heard of me.
Originally posted by Thunderpuck
You have been joined by Tabular Magmus Thunderpuck Xll
Evoker/Guildmage of great renoun, destroyer of the red dragon Farharsk, infultrator of the Pomarj, recoverer of the Cup of Santiago, four time blue ribbon holder in annual pie eating contest, drow feared, blessed with blueberry scones of healing recipe by Bahamut and champion of Dyvers.
Exactly my point.
Originally posted by Argon
IMC gnomes are the one source you go too when you need information no one else has. Gnomes hold knowledge elves wish they had and actually convey for themselves. I used this to tie in how sometimes gnomes are seen as a cousin of the dwarven race. Back when Oerth was young many an elf tried too obtain the knowledge of the gnomes. The dwarves already on strained relations with the elvin people. Were the ultimate sheild against elvin incursions into gnomish lands.
And where did they get this information? From all the furry little burrowing animals they play with?
Face it, gnomes are only good with ketchup.
And where did they get this information? From all the furry little burrowing animals they play with?
No they were one of the first race's on Oerth, IMC. Gnomes were intrusted with many secrets later races did not receive the benefits of having.
Face it, gnomes are only good with ketchup.
Well that's your opinion Delglath. I prefer elves with a slice of tomato and some mayo on the side!
Now that we got some things to add to the menu, let's take this in another direction. If you don't want gnomes in your campaign that's fine. God knows I threw the whole drow race off of Oerth and let the dam Torilians pickle'em for all I care.
Fact of the matter is if you don't like something I won't force you to keep it. Unless your in my campaign that is. LOL.
Originally posted by Argon
No they were one of the first race's on Oerth, IMC. Gnomes were intrusted with many secrets later races did not receive the benefits of having.
Ah, see, now, you're talking about gnomes that have been heavily modified and given a distinct history and culture. I'm talking about D&D gnomes and Greyhawk.
Gnomes in Greyhawk are about as important and interesting as a fly on ****.
D&D gnomes are equally redundant.
Originally posted by Argon
Well that's your opinion Delglath.
Yes, and as we all agree and have conceded long ago, my opinion is the only one that matters :D
Since Greyhawk history doesn't include the origin of the various races, Argon is perfectly justified in making one up.
Originally posted by Elendur
Gnomes are as well defined as any of the other non-human races in Greyhawk. That is, not very well at all. Greyhawk is very human centric in my opinion. The difference with gnomes is that we don't have other sources to fall back on.
Hardly, the elves have many detailed areas and interactions with humans including a friggin Knighthood.
Dwarves less so, but still have many more interactions with humans and much more history (Axe of the Dwarven Lords, anyone?) than the gnomes. The gnomes ONLY have Verbobonc and a brief mention in the Flinty Hills.
But aside from that, they're just redundant as a D&D race because they're little more than a cross-between of dwarves and halflings, with a silly twist.
Originally posted by Elendur
Since Greyhawk history doesn't include the origin of the various races, Argon is perfectly justified in making one up.
You seem to be missing the point. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to give the gnomes a reason to exist, I'm saying that they don't have one.
Originally posted by Delglath
You seem to be missing the point. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to give the gnomes a reason to exist, I'm saying that they don't have one.
Elves and halflings don't have a reason to exist either. The reason you think gnomes are a cross between dwarves and halflings is that you have preconceived notion about what dwarves and halflings are, primarily from Tolkien. From a pure Greyhawk standpoint, elves could be a cross between humans and gnomes, we just don't know.
Again, my only point is that gnomes seem out of place because they have no context outside of D&D. Some choose to discard them because of this, some choose to use it as an opportunity to create something interesting.
Originally posted by Elendur
Elves and halflings don't have a reason to exist either.
Yes they do. They're individual, unique, interesting. They're vastly different in style and form from all other races. This aspect of them has nothing to do with Greyhawk and is inherent in their make-up as core D&D races.
Originally posted by Elendur
The reason you think gnomes are a cross between dwarves and halflings is that you have preconceived notion about what dwarves and halflings are, primarily from Tolkien.
Whoa, hold on thar, pardner. Nobody tells me what I think, least of all you. I hate Tolkien and have barely, with great sufference, managed to read half-way through the second book of LotR. What notions I have about halflings have ZERO to do with Tolkien. I DESPISE Tolkien halflings. My halflings are, and always have been (even before 3e), more like 3e halflings.
The reason I think gnomes are a cross between dwarves and halflings is because they share similar traits of both races, whilst not embracing any one core part of those races that gives those races their abilities.
The roles that gnomes play are therefore better suited to either dwarves or halflings.
Originally posted by Elendur
Again, my only point is that gnomes seem out of place because they have no context outside of D&D. Some choose to discard them because of this, some choose to use it as an opportunity to create something interesting.
What do mean they have no context outside of D&D? Gnomes have been part of Human Folklore for ages. Though Dwarves, Goblins, and Gnomes have always interchangeable but that doesn't mean that there is no context. There were slight differences between gnomes and dwarves. Dwarves and gnomes both dwelt beneath the earth and were said to be miners, but whereas dwarves were mighty smiths and crafters of fabulous items, gnomes were more secretive. Infact they guarded secrets men weren't supposed to know about. Able to move through earth as easily as we walk they were very magical, moreso than the dwarves.
Looks like good reference why gnomes make good illusionists. Misdirection is a great way to hide things. If I walk by the entrance to the cave of wonderous treasure because a sheer rock wall or dense thicket of nettles stood there I'd continue looking elsewhere. Gnomes are a legitimate race in any classical D&D setting. I'm not a fan of the sedentary halfling either. I much prefer the nomadic Hin of FR or the Kender of DL. The little people however are a great addition to the game. Some of us don't want to play the hulking fighter or battlemage. Some of us want to play loremasters, scouts, and shadows. No better races than the small sized Gnomes and Halflings to fill these roles.
Name one source book detailing any gnomish lands in either Gh or FR. i don't recall seeing any. I am not including The complete books because they do not detail lands of any of the races.
I for one hated the fact that the gnomes and dwarves had very similar abilities and skills and even the Halflings to a lesser extent were given some of the dwarven abilities as well in the PHB.
Now as sad as it is Elves have always been detailed regardless of the game setting. I think this is because most people actually like elves ( I'm not one of them). Dwarves have also been given attention in every game setting as well. Halflings have received a smidgen of information in every game setting ( But IMO haven't really been given much attention as well). Gnomes are ignored in most settings except maybe DL which gave them a unique twist but something I think only fits the DL campaign.
So I wrote a short article on the Gnomes of Oerth (On Canonfire.com). I did not discuss the actually lands of the gnomes but I did make them a race unlike those previously mentioned. Gnomes were one of the first races of Oerth. Elves will argue this and Dwarves are willing to concede the fact that gnomes existed before the dwarven race. I have made the gnome race in my campaign conicide with the creation of the trolls ( Think of norse mythology with a look similar to the three Billy Goats gruff kind of Trolls). These two races at one time shared Oerth with the god like species of the Dragons and Giants of Oerth. One of the gods corrupted by the taint of a mortal realm (Oerth) tried to gain control of the Troll and Gnomish races he failed and was confined to the Depths of Oerth. This god was responsible for the creation of the Spriggan ( Which instead of just assuming a giant gnome shape actually can change from gnome to troll but can only maintain a form for up to eight hours before converting into their other form) which are the greatest bane of both of these races. The god is known to both gnomes and trolls as Urdlen the dweller below.
I also have it rumored in my campaign that some of the trolls culture has rubbed of on the dwarves and some of their culture has rubbed off on some humans lands, particularly those of the Sheldomar Valley though not limited to this area. Now if your daft enough to mention this rumor to a dwarf then expect a not so pleasant response in return for your comment (The comment that some of the trollish culture was incorporated into dwarven society). I think I need to make it clear that my version of Trolls is nothing like the race detailed in the D&D game monstrous Manuals. Now with that said , I believe that every body has some take on what a race is like. So gnome fans Delglath don't like gnomes and you do then fine. I believe Rostoff replaced the Halflings in his campaign with gnomes.
So instead of keeping this thread as a center of gnome bashing. I created a thread on these boards which simply asks what's your favorite Gh race and why? Check it out and" please Delglath leave those gnomes alone". Ok so I was listening to some Pink Floyd don't hold it against me. LOL.
Originally posted by Argon
So instead of keeping this thread as a center of gnome bashing. I created a thread on these boards which simply asks what's your favorite Gh race and why? Check it out and" please Delglath leave those gnomes alone". Ok so I was listening to some Pink Floyd don't hold it against me. LOL.
Why not? I like gnome-bashing. It's fun. They're squishy and they make a funny "gnaarrff!" sound when you clomp them on the head.
Besides, the original poster asked why they're hated. It's one of the few threads that has remained on topic!