I need help with
1. History. What books/modules do I need to buy to get an accurate history of sigil and the cosmology of the planes? I am not even sure how the planes work, but I have a basic idea.
2. Maps. Is there any product with a map of Sigil out there? I think that is where i would like to have my campaign begin.
3. This one may be the easiest to answer and the hardest at the same time. Planescape seems very attractive to me because it does not feel like your typical D&D hack and slash setting. In a Planescape campaign I imagine that survivability will not be determined by how many hit points and ac you have but by how crafty you and your character are. What is the general feel of the campaign world? Why does everyone tell me that it is the Holy Grail of pen and paper RPGs?
4. Who are the major players in Sigil? The only one I have ever heard of is the Lady Of Pain and I am not exactly sure about her. I know she is supposed to be enigmatic and all but what exactly is her deal? What does she look like?
5. I have used all the online resources that anyone on this thread would reccomend to me, but they dont really answer any of the basic questions above. Mainly Apout the history, layout, and the major playes of the setting. Are there any web resources out there besides this page that can give me this info.
Finally I know I will be recieved with some playful distain for asking these stupid questions. I am prepared to be called a berk, clueless, primer, etc. I have a glossary of terms so let em fly! I deserve it. It will be worth it when I can finally move my campaign out of FR.
Thanks and happy gaming!
Originally posted by Utumno
Alright, I have some fundamental planescape questions. First I should say that I am an aspiring Planescape DM. Second I feel kind of intimidatedby the world and the gamers who play in it. It seems very vast with a very rich history and its gamers seem to be very elite. I need someone to point me in the right direction. I already posted a simmilar post on the MANUAL OF THE PLANES page so if this seems redundant I apologise.
I need help with
1. History. What books/modules do I need to buy to get an accurate history of sigil and the cosmology of the planes? I am not even sure how the planes work, but I have a basic idea.
There're books or boxed sets on the Astral, the Ethereal, the Inner, and the Outer Planes. The first three have their own books. Outer Planes have three boxed sets, I think, plus the Primer to the Outlands. Planes of Law (from Baator to Celestia), Planes of Chaos (from Arborea to The Abyss) and Planes of Conflict (the in-betweens). There's the book about Sigil itself, "In the Cage."
For history...History of the Planes is kinda hard to come by but the books about the planes sometimes give a decent history of certain locales on the Outer Planes. A lot of the stuff out in the Multiverse has (presumably) always been there so there's not much history about it.
The Factol's Manifesto is a must-have if you want history of the factions. It talks about how most of them were formed and gives a lot of dark about the way the factions are currently (currently meaning pre-Faction War).
Finally, the Planewalker's Handbook is an excellent catch-all book that covers a little bit of everything. I think it's mostly meant to be used as a player resource. However, it briefly touches each major aspect of Planescape.
If you can get your hands on all of those books, you should have your bases pretty well covered.
2. Maps. Is there any product with a map of Sigil out there? I think that is where i would like to have my campaign begin.
I think "In the Cage" might have a map of Sigil. If it doesn't, I don't think any of the other books do. But then, I've not been able to read all of the books so I could be wrong.
3. This one may be the easiest to answer and the hardest at the same time. Planescape seems very attractive to me because it does not feel like your typical D&D hack and slash setting. In a Planescape campaign I imagine that survivability will not be determined by how many hit points and ac you have but by how crafty you and your character are. What is the general feel of the campaign world? Why does everyone tell me that it is the Holy Grail of pen and paper RPGs?
This I think has a lot to do with a person's own opinion (there's some support for you Signers out there). The thing, in my opinion, that makes Planescape so much different from any other campaign setting is the profound effect of belief on the multiverse. Belief can shape the entire planes -- and does. It provides an incredibly different aspect of the game, whereas many other "stereotypical" campaign settings have strong hack-n-slash support, with the opportunity for role-play. Planescape opens an opportunity for a character's belief to change not only his own future but the very planes around him, too.
4. Who are the major players in Sigil? The only one I have ever heard of is the Lady Of Pain and I am not exactly sure about her. I know she is supposed to be enigmatic and all but what exactly is her deal? What does she look like?
I'll start from the end and work my way back.
First, the Lady looks like...well...a lady. She's supposed to be dressed in long, flowing robes and has blades instead of hair. You know that image in the Planescape logo? That's supposed to represent Her Serenity. There's a pretty neat picture of the Lady near the back of the Planewalker's Handbook.
What's her deal? Well, that's the thing. What IS her deal? Nobody really knows. All that people know for sure are these things:
She keeps all of the powers out of Sigil.
She controls all of the portals in Sigil.
People who worship her usually die or get Mazed.
People who threaten her or try to overthrow her have the tendency to either die or be Mazed.
Just stay out of her way and don't do anything to provoke her or you'll regret it.
Probably not much help but there's not a lot of dark that can be given out on Her Serenity. To put it simply, nobody knows any dark on her.
Now, some of the major players. There are a LOT of major players in Sigil, actually. Pre-Faction War, you'll obviously have the various factols. Post-FW, I'm not sure who'd be considered a major player, except for Jeremo the Natterer and Ramadan the Wise. A'kin, I suppose. Annali Webspinner of the "Entertainer's Guild." The Painter. Like I said, there are others, but those are the ones that come to mind first and foremost.
Of course, the most important figure in all of Sigil next to Her Serenity is our most illustrious and magnanimous and beautiful arcanaloth, Shemeska the Marauder.
5. I have used all the online resources that anyone on this thread would reccomend to me, but they dont really answer any of the basic questions above. Mainly Apout the history, layout, and the major playes of the setting. Are there any web resources out there besides this page that can give me this info.
This link sells PDF versions of all the old Planescape books at about $5 US a pop. Unless you get lucky on eBay or find pirated copies, you're not likely to find much else in the way of PS books.
www.mimir.net is an extensive PS resource site. I think a lot of it is fan-submitted material but there's a LOT of history there and chances are, if you want to know a little bit more about something or other, you'll find it at the Mimir. I'm not entirely sure if the Mimir is supported as canon but I believe it is. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Finally I know I will be recieved with some playful distain for asking these stupid questions. I am prepared to be called a berk, clueless, primer, etc. I have a glossary of terms so let em fly! I deserve it. It will be worth it when I can finally move my campaign out of FR.
Thanks and happy gaming!
You're a sodding Clueless but at least you know you're a sodding Clueless, so you're already a step ahead of the rest of the clueless berks out there ;)
The Planescape campaign setting box is a must have. I would also highly recomend the Planewalker's handbook because it really clears up some general things that are somewhat vague in the main box (specifics about portals, planar PC races, etc). I'd also recommend The Factols' Manifesto and Uncaged: Faces of Sigil if you want a sigil based game. If you are thinking of a more plane-hopping one, you probably want to pick up the appropriate boxed set (Planes of Law, Conflict, or Chaos as the case may be). The only difficulty you might run into with any of the Planescape material is that they are all 2e. Fortunately most are very uncrunchy. They do have crunchy bits to them, but planescape is dominated by the role playing aspects of the game.
2. I don't believe there are any concrete maps of Sigil. The thing is that they wouldn't stay very useful for long since the city is so dynamic. Sites are generally described relative to other ones, allowing you to customize the exact setup. Some stuff is definite, like the order of the wards, but there is a certain degree of fluidity to the exact location of any specific location.
3. Your survivability is determined a lot by knowing your own limits. Let your players know that there is a good chance of them encountering things which are well beyond their means to fight. That will make them more likely to attempt to interact in non-combat ways. As DM you have to remember, too, that a lot of monsters that are automatically fights in other campaign worlds (You see a pit fiend. Roll initiative.) are going to be noncombat encounters. That doesn't mean your players are going to be getting chummy with fiends (not with any sort of ease, at least), but they aren't going to get slaughtered outright by them. Also face your characters with moral dilemas. In hack and slash, these are really only problems for the paladins and some clerics, but in a setting where you can see the eternal ramifications of your actions, they take on more meaning for all characters.
4. Get "Uncaged: Faces of Sigil" one of the greatest npc supplements of all time. The characters within are connected in webs upon webs. Plus it has Shemeshka as the only official cross-dressing yugoloth (the male symbol was mistakenly misprinted for her since she is the "King" of the crosstrade).
5. http://www.planewalker.com http://www.mimir.net These two sites are your best bets when it comes to Planescape web info. Take a look around on the old parts of planewalker, too, if you want to get some more ideas for planar creatures and characters.
Rust you and all your family to the whistles you sodding addle-cove. Pike off!
:D
Lost is slang for 'deceased'.
Is it bad that this is exactly what I thought upon reading this thread title?
"He's" lost? Cool! Will this be a thread about resurrection on the planes? Perhaps a petitioner retained his memory after death and wants to come back? "
Between the main campaign setting, and the planewalkers handbook, you can get a pretty decent planescape game going. I've not found it possible to run a true Planescape game in 3e without the 2e stuff, so I'd also reccomend you get real comfy with converting older stuff to 3e, if that's the rules version you'll be using. I've (sort of) done this with Dead Gods, Faction War, and most of the NPC's in Uncaged. I think the others have done a pretty good job so far, so I'll just add my take on #3:
Planescape is the most free-form setting ever devised. Anything you can imagine, and most anything you can't, has a place somewhere. Roleplaying is about taking a character, and ultimately portraying their own personality and beliefs, and in planescape, belief Is. The planewalkers handbook actually has optional rules that help to make characters with strong beliefs more "lucky", in a manner of speaking, to represent the fact that on the planes, things more often go right for those with strong convictions. Combat becomes almost moot in a lot of situations. It doesn't matter how many pit fiends you kill, there's more. But spend a lifetime crusading for the cause of good, converting others to the path of righteousness by deed and word and strength of convistion, and you can move towns, foil a thousand evil plots, and do (philisophically) more than ever on any prime world.
It's all about belief. They call it the Holy Grail of roleplaying because it's really about the roleplaying, not the rolling of dice or the mechanics of the game.
Also, despite the distinct lack of "Save the World" plots, though there's plenty of availible plots of the same severity, it seems less petty than most prime campaigns. There's a lot to do out there that's positively enormous in scope, but which still impacts the whole setting relatively little.
Also, you can include every prime world you want without any problems. It's probably the only setting where someone who grew up on Athas would be able to meet up with someone from Krynn, Faerun, and (quite literally) the deepest pits of the Nine Hells, before heading off to begin a campaign to restart the war between Law and Chaos, whilst being opposed by the very phisical manifestations of both those concepts.
Belief and Concept are made manifest, and that's just damn cool.
Originally posted by Tertek
Now, some of the major players. There are a LOT of major players in Sigil, actually. Pre-Faction War, you'll obviously have the various factols. Post-FW, I'm not sure who'd be considered a major player, except for Jeremo the Natterer and Ramadan the Wise. A'kin, I suppose. Annali Webspinner of the "Entertainer's Guild." The Painter. Like I said, there are others, but those are the ones that come to mind first and foremost.
Of course, the most important figure in all of Sigil next to Her Serenity is our most illustrious and magnanimous and beautiful arcanaloth, Shemeska the Marauder.
Well, the politics of Sigil are getting their update to 3e as we speak, the Sigil guide is next on the release list for Planewalker. At least it should be, its now going through the potentially bloody editing process. :P Hopefully not a ton gets axed.
Major 3e power players in brief:
Jeremo the Natterer, factol of the Ring Givers and richest blood in Sigil
Shemeska the Marauder - chant broker, spymaster, King of the Crosstrade, businesswomen, she can do things for you if you're willing to pay her price...
Zadara the Titan - perhaps chief rival to Shemeska, richer than most anyone except Jeremo. Funds other peoples ideas and takes her own cut of the profit.
Estevan the Ogre Mage - potential rival of Zadara and Shemeska, his focus has shifted outside of Sigil of late as The Planar Trade Consortium he holds a place within has moved away from Sigil following the Tempest of Doors
Any and all of the guildmasters and guildmistresses of Sigil's guilds (Kylie the Tout, Annali Webspinner, Autochon the Bellringer, theoretically Oridi Malefin by influence over the undertakers/funerary guild except she's also a factol)
Rhys (formerly factol of the Ciphers, now chair of the Sigil Advisory Council. As far as open and legal influence in Sigil, Rhys has more than anyone else. Even she does inspire a bit of unease and fear in some people considering she escaped the faction war utterly unscathed)
Ramander the Wise as a lower level power. He's pretty much Shemeska's lapdog, and whenever he gets himself mazed she'll just pick up everything he owned and be done with it.
And oh, why would I include A'kin in this list, he's just a simply shopkeeper after all. Sure he's a nice guy, but why would you think he had any sort of power or influence in the city? *innocent look*
And if I left anyone out off the top of my head, don't worry, the writeups are pretty exhaustive, and I'm just rattling stuff off the top of my brainbox here, plus its late and I havn't slept. :P
Planescape is merely a setting. It is a richly detailed setting with extensive ideas and a massive capacity for roleplay, but it is still merely a setting. An individual DM can run a Planescape campaign in any way they feel. Planescape not being Hack-and-Slash is just a subjective take on the setting.
I'm sure I could run a great campaign of pure Hack-and-slash ont he planes. Somehow Ysgard has become a Blood War battleground! A ruined Temple complex in the Outlands holds the legendary Rod of Chiaoscuro, find it and kill some zombies! The elemental Plane of Fire, enough said! In each of those cases neither I nor my players truly have to care what the overarching political ramifications of what is going on. So Bel's getting jealous of Levistus? Demogorgon has a bad hair day? The Seven heavens of Celestia are terraforming into the 9 Bounce Houses of Celestia? Who cares?! Someone else ont he planes'll worry about it, we're busy killing things.
The majesty of roleplay versus rollplay is in the campaign not the campaign setting. Setting is just a tool, what you do with it is what counts.
The Power is Yours!
Originally posted by L33t Angel
The Power is Yours!
Is it considered impolite to mock you for having directly quoted Captain Planet? Or is this a case of legally justifiable homicide?
Just joking :D
Taking into consideration though what you said above in your post, I do however think there's a difference between Planescape as a setting, and the planes as a setting. Its the difference between Planescape, and running a campaign of 'destroy hell by flooding it with holy water' based on the MotP. And yes, I saw someone on the boards here asking the best way to go about doing that.
The clueless are breeding, and it frightens me. The gene pool needs some chlorine. So go get me Tiamat's green dragon consort and he and I will have some house calls to make. *cackle*
Planescape lent itself rather naturally to being more about ideas, ideals, belief, and politics, than it did to romp around the planes for the high level baddies. Which is what the combination of the MotP and the Epic Level Handbook has done for a number of people.
Planescape lent itself to mystery, suspense, and intrigue more than just killing monsters and looting the bodies. Of course any campaign has that, its just a part of DnD, but Planescape in my experience both playing and running it, doesn't emphasize that.
I've gone entire sessions with a number of dice rolls you could count on your left hand. And my players weren't bored is the amazing thing. Have a deep enough, detailed enough, and complicated enough storyline or world that plot takes place in, and you can go without combat and it won't be missed.
That rarely happens of course, but it doesn't seem to be an issue when it does actually happen. My players have had as much or more fun trapped in the 3rd layer of Pandemonium in a small group, with an unidentified serial killer, trying to figure out which of them it was, and why they were doing it with hardly any combat and about 5 hours of purely IC conversation between both players and NPC's; than when they spent most of a session in combat while raiding a hidden Yugoloth outpost in Belarian the 3rd layer of Elysium.
Maybe I just have high standards for a game and put a near obsessive amount of time into each weeks game session. Joke all you want about me sitting down to write plot and all but cackling, drooling and leaving a damp spot on my chair over the plot twists.
From what I've seen, this isn't all too different from alot of Planescape DM's. Both players and DM's fall in love with the setting and it shows.
Hmm, I guess that qualifies as a rant. Eh, oh well, it had to be said.
One more question. It seems like most of you reccomended 2d ed guides to the individual planes. I really dont have that kind of $ so I was wondering if any of you would reccomend buying the Manual of the Planes and substituting it for those guides. I realize that it will not be as good as the original (almost nothing ever is) but it would be easier on my wallet.
Any suggestions?
P.S. I have gotten more comprehensive helpful responses from this one thread that at any other time on these boards. Planescape players as a community seem to me to be of a higher caliber than the 3rd ed WOTC massacre of rules and pocketbooks. It used to be that D&D was about more that cash. It was about a common interest shared by educated people that made up a unique subculture. It is refreshing to see that in some places the glory of what D&D used to be still exists. Thank you all!
And for the dough you're shelling out for that one book, you could get some other great stuff as well.
*rumble rumble*
Now, as for maps.... try these links:
http://home.planet.nl/~evanmeeteren/Sigil/Sigilmap.jpg
http://www.mimir.net/psmush/maps.shtml
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/davidm/sigil.jpg.html
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mapofweek/dec_sigil_gh55z_lo.jpg
http://www.nightwasp.com/daggerdale/images/ps_outlands.jpg
Oh, and also, Shem Shem....
Maybe I just have high standards for a game and put a near obsessive amount of time into each weeks game session. Joke all you want about me sitting down to write plot and all but cackling, drooling and leaving a damp spot on my chair over the plot twists.
Eww.
Also for excellent maps of the Lower and parts of the Lady's Wards pick up the adventure Harbinger House. The adventure's not so great but it's maps were awesome (they came on a cardboard fold out screen, a DM's screen for the adventure). If you can get the adventure the Eternal Boundary it's a great first adventure for low-level PC's (and one of my favorites)!!!
Originally posted by puk
If I may chip in: If planescape is what you want to play, stay away from the manual of the planes. You could do better with just the boxed set (as an ESD from SV games of course).
Really? I have to disagree. Sure, it's not perfect, but the Manual of the Planes is an excellent book for DMs looking to run planar games in 3E. The ESDs are great for getting the setting's background, flavour, plot hooks, memorable NPCs, and so on, but what they're terrible for is in-game reference. You don't want to be running a game by looking back and forth in a 60 MB PDF file while trying to convert 2E rules and monster statistics to 3E on the fly, and as far as crunchy monsters, rules, spells, and classes go, the Manual of the Planes is great.
Yes, it would be nice if they'd given more attention to Sigil, or added the modrons, or not nerfed the yugoloths, etc., etc. But as far as useful tools for DMs go, the Manual is near the top of my list, even though it's not enough to run a full Planescape campaign with by itself. You can always supplement it with notes from the 2E Planescape material to flesh your game out.
As for the things you'll want to read to get the feel of the Planescape setting, I'm inclined to say that there are only three products that are absolutely necessary: The Planescape Campaign Setting, In The Cage: A Guide To Sigil, and Uncaged: Faces of Sigil. The Factol's Manifesto is another top-notch product, but not quite as essential as those three. The rest are interesting but optional.
Good luck!
Orriginally by Fimmtiu
Really? I have to disagree. Sure, it's not perfect, but the Manual of the Planes is an excellent book for DMs looking to run planar games in 3E. The ESDs are great for getting the setting's background, flavour, plot hooks, memorable NPCs, and so on, but what they're terrible for is in-game reference. You don't want to be running a game by looking back and forth in a 60 MB PDF file while trying to convert 2E rules and monster statistics to 3E on the fly, and as far as crunchy monsters, rules, spells, and classes go, the Manual of the Planes is great.
Yes, it would be nice if they'd given more attention to Sigil, or added the modrons, or not nerfed the yugoloths, etc., etc. But as far as useful tools for DMs go, the Manual is near the top of my list, even though it's not enough to run a full Planescape campaign with by itself. You can always supplement it with notes from the 2E Planescape material to flesh your game out.
originaly byShemeska the Marauder:
.... I do however think there's a difference between Planescape as a setting, and the planes as a setting. Its the difference between Planescape, and running a campaign of 'destroy hell by flooding it with holy water' based on the MotP.
Like Shem said: planescape and planar adventures are two worlds (or planes if you'll pardon the pun) appart.
Unfortunately, monsters, NPC's and a whole load of of other crunchy bits will need some serious attention if you want to run planescape in 3e. Sad but true. Still, I stand by my point. If you want to run a planescape game, you really don't need the MotP.
I know, flipping through a PDF is a far cry from flipping through a book. I am fortunate to own most of the planescape material in print. And what I don't have, I downloaded, printed and bound into a book, for easy reference.
Course there are bad things aboot the MotP too. Like since when did Petitioners get so friggin tough?!?! Elemental resistance 20?
Actually the MotP is very useful for one reason. It replaced the cumbersome rules about what happens to magic on the planes. No more spell keys or power keys. No more losing effective levels the further you are away from your Power's realm.
Oh yeah, one of the most undeniably cool features of the setting is completely done away with, and you think it's good. One of the best things about the setting is that it's so complex it makes one's head spin. A three year old with down's syndrome can understand the pablum in MoTP. No thanks, I like my settings to have some complexity to them.
I wasn't involved in that debate largely, but I think it was done away with largely so the setting wouldn't be so daunting to new players.
On top of that, well, I've never actually used those rules when running a Planescape game. Unnecessarily complex was my opinion on them, despite the flavor they added.
I don't actually know of anyone who did in fact use those rules among those DM's who ran Planescape all of them disgustingly good at it.
I think however that some version of those rules may be included as a variant rule set in the campaign setting document.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
On top of that, well, I've never actually used those rules when running a Planescape game. Unnecessarily complex was my opinion on them, despite the flavor they added. I don't actually know of anyone who did in fact use those rules among those DM's who ran Planescape all of them disgustingly good at it.
Agreed. I thought that was one of the more refreshing parts of the MotP: removing the vast amount of bookkeeping that's involved in things like recalculating all your magic items' pluses based on where they were forged, the huge tables of which spells were impeded / enhanced / et cetera on every plane, the restrictions on divine magic based on distance from your god, et cetera. Good ideas flavour-wise, but they weren't actually fun to deal with in-game.
I guess in 3.5 it would only matter mainly if the weapon dropped to a 0 value and lost special abilities and the ability to punch through DR/magic.
Would a +0 weapon punch dr/magic? A little off topic, but hey, this thread will ultimately decay into a mock-shemeska-fest.
Plus, they make it easy to take away spells and things that your players tend to depend on too much. It keeps them on their toes.
As the Cleric has always been my fav class (rogue/thief second), I never liked the fact we got shafted in the planes away from our god's base of power. Granted it enforced a uneasy status quo between the Powers and their over-zealous followers. However for Adventuring clerics it sucked (esp. because I didn't really play the church hierarchy angles and the PC's IMC's have always been uber-chaotic!).
Simplicity is not always good just because the masses can follow it. I never saw PS as an "expert" setting, just non-traditional.
Complexity in story or tone is good, especially for heavy RP'ers. Complexity in game mechanics sucks for DM's who have 9 PC's to keep an eye on let alone my notes.