Rajaat's knowledge on Dragon!!!! - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Rajaat's knowledge on Dragon!!!!

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jihun-nish
Oct 30, 2003 21:47:51 Has anywone ask imself how Rajaat came to the conclusion that a human or half-human could become a Dragon? Of course part of the answer is lots of arcane research but the real question would be; what kind of magic research brings an individual to come to this conclusion? To my knowledge The Experiment of the said Transformation is the best way to know if it works. Let me explain myself;

Rajaat knew that only humans of high level of arcane and pionics power could attain such mutation.

I like to think that somewhere hidden in the misty border ( at the base of the Jagged Cliffs) there are several labs all different from one and other and that one of them was dedicated to that very study -How to become a Dagon-God- I think that somewhere in this lab is/are one/many experiment in stasis field wich were ment for future study but were carelessly forgottent. An other option would be ;Rajaat discovered in th Pristine Tower during his teachings (he had plenty subjects for his experiment there.

The reason why Rajaat would not have killed his experiment when he thought *it* a failure would be because of the tremendousamount of time it took the *recipient* to learn magic and psionics and therefore canalise the magical energies to transform without desintegrating in the process.

I'm sure logicaly there should be unique creation in stasis field (or the like) somewhere at the buttom of the Misty Border or in the Deeps of the Pristine Tower ( assuming it is vast enough to be undiscovered to this day.) In my campaing the former champion Myron was not killed by Hamanu but rather taken prisonner and brought back to rajaat to be used as a guinea pig

More to come if it interest's you

If you like this thread please submit your opinion and ideas
#2
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 31, 2003 1:32:42 I've personally been working along the idea that Rajaat may not have been aware that someone would become a Dragon - maybe not consciously aware of it. He was seeking magical power, found it, and used it for his own ends. RaFoaDK is cool, but there's some parts I don't rely on heavily.
#3
jihun-nish
Oct 31, 2003 1:58:36
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I've personally been working along the idea that Rajaat may not have been aware that someone would become a Dragon - maybe not consciously aware of it. He was seeking magical power, found it, and used it for his own ends. RaFoaDK is cool, but there's some parts I don't rely on heavily.

This is from the wanderer's Chonicle top page 13
....but rajaat did not stop there. He hintedthat there was a level of existance beyond that which he had granted them.*through sorcery and psionics, you can become gods!* He promised, and his champion believed him.

Are you then assuming it was all a lies that miraculously became a reality???
#4
jihun-nish
Oct 31, 2003 2:01:25 Sorry could'nt decipher RaFoaDK ( well it is 3am here so:D )
#5
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 4:00:48 yeah what the heck does RaFoaDK mean?
#6
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 5:52:28 Its Rise and Fall of a Dragon King
From the old mailing list days we could never be bothered typeing out entire book titles
So
Prisim Pentad 1-5 became
PP1 to PP5
VoDaF is Valley of Dust and Fire
EAFW Earth Air Fire and Water
TWatW The Will and the Way

etc etc

I think Athas online has all of these somewhere or links to the old pages.
#7
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 9:54:46 Hehh, thinking of Rajaat's experiments the scene from Alien 4 comes to my mind when Ripley meets her not-successful earlier clones... Brutal...
#8
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 13:55:22 Never read "Rise and Fall of a Dragon King" in general I tend to keep away from gaming fiction as much as I can, most of it is pretty bad. Although the Prism Pentad was very good.
#9
jihun-nish
Oct 31, 2003 14:03:54
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Hehh, thinking of Rajaat's experiments the scene from Alien 4 comes to my mind when Ripley meets her not-successful earlier clones... Brutal...

Exacly my point; there must be forgoten experiment somewhere and dont think on coincidence the fact that Dragon state was possible for powerfull beings (remember my example with Myron) I do think Rajaat knew exacly what he was promising to his champions

Why did he not transform himself then?? My response would be ; He had something else on his mind for himself or did'nt have the time and patient ( the transformation is quite painfull and time consuming) considering the teachings and the Cleansing wars.
#10
flip
Oct 31, 2003 17:28:27
Originally posted by felixmeister
I think Athas online has all of these somewhere or links to the old pages.

Part of the old mailing list FAQ

http://meteu.octoraro.org/sands/abbreviations.html

... I really need to get around to moving the FAQ to athas.org ...
#11
Pennarin
Nov 01, 2003 18:14:26
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I've personally been working along the idea that Rajaat may not have been aware that someone would become a Dragon

It feels more right that way, I agree. At least better than the alternatives... ;)
Xlorep, I'm curious: is it you who thought that there should be a gaming difference between champions and dragons, in reflection of some of the novels, or is it someone else? I quite agreed with that, by the way.
#12
flip
Nov 01, 2003 18:46:38
Originally posted by Pennarin
It feels more right that way, I agree. At least better than the alternatives... ;)
Xlorep, I'm curious: is it you who thought that there should be a gaming difference between champions and dragons, in reflection of some of the novels, or is it someone else? I quite agreed with that, by the way.

Longstanding opinion of mine.

The current crop of Sorcerer Kings are both Dragons and Champions. Both are epic level classes.

PCs who do well for themselves and make it to the point where they can transform will become Dragons. If everything had gone the way Tithian was hoping, he'd have become a Champion<0>.

Some of the things the SKs get to do, like, say, granting spells, comes from the Champion aspect <1>, and are out of reach of mere PCs (and uppity NPCs). Other, more familiar perks, come from the Dragon transformation process.

All of this is my stance on things, not to be taken as anything more than that. ;)

- flip
<0> Only Rajaat can make you a Champion.
<1> The Elemental Vorticies were attracted to the SKs when they became Champions, not when they became Dragons.
#13
lurking_shadow
Nov 01, 2003 19:25:53
<1> The Elemental Vorticies were attracted to the SKs when they became Champions, not when they became Dragons.

Actually, I was just browsing through the Athas Timeline file and found the following:

164th King's Age (-2,002)
-Desert Vengeance
Becoming aware that Rajaat intends to wipe out all races except the halflings, Borys leads the Champions in a rebellion against their master-from which they emerged victorious.
Through the use of the Dark Lens, Borys rewards the remaining Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings. This process links each of them to living vortices, which allows them to grant their followers clerical spells.

So being a Champion of Rajaat is still not enough to attract the vortices, acording to Kevin Melka.

If I recall correctly, the Dragon Kings accessory stated that new Dragons did not gain the abillity to grant spells, and that the living vortices, besides the ones already attached to the SKs, had long become extinct. (Which I found odd and obviously balance motivated.)

Theese are just technicalities, of course.
#14
Pennarin
Nov 02, 2003 1:56:16
Originally posted by Lurking Shadow
So being a Champion of Rajaat is still not enough to attract the vortices, acording to Kevin Melka.

Kevin Melka took a lot of liberties with the material he wrote, such as making Ktandeo an halfling...

I believe the established idea is to disregard that statement and many others such as these, but not all. For example the halflings in Denning's novels are first shown to have preservers among them while later in the series the author states that they can't use arcane magic at all. That fundamental change of heart by Denning was not imported by the DS3 team, and don't forget there were issues of balance...
Is this right guys?

The status of the origin of the SKs ability to empower their templars is another such problem. For that one about half the people who know DS really like the idea of the Vortices and the other half disregards them and go Abbey's way: a dark lens connection at the moment of their creation as champions.

Until the epic spells, dragon metamorphosis and templates are revealled by the DS3 team, we won't know which way was chosen. ;)
#15
flip
Nov 02, 2003 2:11:38
Originally posted by Lurking Shadow
If I recall correctly, the Dragon Kings accessory stated that new Dragons did not gain the abillity to grant spells, and that the living vortices, besides the ones already attached to the SKs, had long become extinct. (Which I found odd and obviously balance motivated.)

This is true, and I'd mentioned as much in an earier draft ... but the boards respond oddly when you hit the escape key (and I use vi, so the escape key is very natural for me ...) in my rewrite, I managed to fail to mention that part ...

You're absoltuely correct: Nobody "new" will get the chance to grant spells ...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jihun-nish Oct 30, 2003 21:47:51	Has anywone ask imself how Rajaat came to the conclusion that a human or half-human could become a Dragon? Of course part of the answer is lots of arcane research but the real question would be; what kind of magic research brings an individual to come to this conclusion? To my knowledge The Experiment of the said Transformation is the best way to know if it works. Let me explain myself; Rajaat knew that only humans of high level of arcane and pionics power could attain such mutation. I like to think that somewhere hidden in the misty border ( at the base of the Jagged Cliffs) there are several labs all different from one and other and that one of them was dedicated to that very study -How to become a Dagon-God- I think that somewhere in this lab is/are one/many experiment in stasis field wich were ment for future study but were carelessly forgottent. An other option would be ;Rajaat discovered in th Pristine Tower during his teachings (he had plenty subjects for his experiment there. The reason why Rajaat would not have killed his experiment when he thought it a failure would be because of the tremendousamount of time it took the recipient to learn magic and psionics and therefore canalise the magical energies to transform without desintegrating in the process. I'm sure logicaly there should be unique creation in stasis field (or the like) somewhere at the buttom of the Misty Border or in the Deeps of the Pristine Tower ( assuming it is vast enough to be undiscovered to this day.) In my campaing the former champion Myron was not killed by Hamanu but rather taken prisonner and brought back to rajaat to be used as a guinea pig More to come if it interest's you If you like this thread please submit your opinion and ideas
#2 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 31, 2003 1:32:42	I've personally been working along the idea that Rajaat may not have been aware that someone would become a Dragon - maybe not consciously aware of it. He was seeking magical power, found it, and used it for his own ends. RaFoaDK is cool, but there's some parts I don't rely on heavily.
#3 jihun-nish Oct 31, 2003 1:58:36	Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm I've personally been working along the idea that Rajaat may not have been aware that someone would become a Dragon - maybe not consciously aware of it. He was seeking magical power, found it, and used it for his own ends. RaFoaDK is cool, but there's some parts I don't rely on heavily. This is from the wanderer's Chonicle top page 13 ....but rajaat did not stop there. He hintedthat there was a level of existance beyond that which he had granted them.through sorcery and psionics, you can become gods! He promised, and his champion believed him. Are you then assuming it was all a lies that miraculously became a reality???
#4 jihun-nish Oct 31, 2003 2:01:25	Sorry could'nt decipher RaFoaDK ( well it is 3am here so:D )
#5 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 4:00:48	yeah what the heck does RaFoaDK mean?
#6 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 5:52:28	Its Rise and Fall of a Dragon King From the old mailing list days we could never be bothered typeing out entire book titles So Prisim Pentad 1-5 became PP1 to PP5 VoDaF is Valley of Dust and Fire EAFW Earth Air Fire and Water TWatW The Will and the Way etc etc I think Athas online has all of these somewhere or links to the old pages.
#7 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 9:54:46	Hehh, thinking of Rajaat's experiments the scene from Alien 4 comes to my mind when Ripley meets her not-successful earlier clones... Brutal...
#8 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 13:55:22	Never read "Rise and Fall of a Dragon King" in general I tend to keep away from gaming fiction as much as I can, most of it is pretty bad. Although the Prism Pentad was very good.
#9 jihun-nish Oct 31, 2003 14:03:54	Originally posted by Nagypapi Hehh, thinking of Rajaat's experiments the scene from Alien 4 comes to my mind when Ripley meets her not-successful earlier clones... Brutal... Exacly my point; there must be forgoten experiment somewhere and dont think on coincidence the fact that Dragon state was possible for powerfull beings (remember my example with Myron) I do think Rajaat knew exacly what he was promising to his champions Why did he not transform himself then?? My response would be ; He had something else on his mind for himself or did'nt have the time and patient ( the transformation is quite painfull and time consuming) considering the teachings and the Cleansing wars.
#10 flip Oct 31, 2003 17:28:27	Originally posted by felixmeister I think Athas online has all of these somewhere or links to the old pages. Part of the old mailing list FAQ http://meteu.octoraro.org/sands/abbreviations.html ... I really need to get around to moving the FAQ to athas.org ...
#11 Pennarin Nov 01, 2003 18:14:26	Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm I've personally been working along the idea that Rajaat may not have been aware that someone would become a Dragon It feels more right that way, I agree. At least better than the alternatives... ;) Xlorep, I'm curious: is it you who thought that there should be a gaming difference between champions and dragons, in reflection of some of the novels, or is it someone else? I quite agreed with that, by the way.
#12 flip Nov 01, 2003 18:46:38	Originally posted by Pennarin It feels more right that way, I agree. At least better than the alternatives... ;) Xlorep, I'm curious: is it you who thought that there should be a gaming difference between champions and dragons, in reflection of some of the novels, or is it someone else? I quite agreed with that, by the way. Longstanding opinion of mine. The current crop of Sorcerer Kings are both Dragons and Champions. Both are epic level classes. PCs who do well for themselves and make it to the point where they can transform will become Dragons. If everything had gone the way Tithian was hoping, he'd have become a Champion<0>. Some of the things the SKs get to do, like, say, granting spells, comes from the Champion aspect <1>, and are out of reach of mere PCs (and uppity NPCs). Other, more familiar perks, come from the Dragon transformation process. All of this is my stance on things, not to be taken as anything more than that. ;) - flip <0> Only Rajaat can make you a Champion. <1> The Elemental Vorticies were attracted to the SKs when they became Champions, not when they became Dragons.
#13 lurking_shadow Nov 01, 2003 19:25:53	<1> The Elemental Vorticies were attracted to the SKs when they became Champions, not when they became Dragons. Actually, I was just browsing through the Athas Timeline file and found the following: 164th King's Age (-2,002) -Desert Vengeance Becoming aware that Rajaat intends to wipe out all races except the halflings, Borys leads the Champions in a rebellion against their master-from which they emerged victorious. Through the use of the Dark Lens, Borys rewards the remaining Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings. This process links each of them to living vortices, which allows them to grant their followers clerical spells. So being a Champion of Rajaat is still not enough to attract the vortices, acording to Kevin Melka. If I recall correctly, the Dragon Kings accessory stated that new Dragons did not gain the abillity to grant spells, and that the living vortices, besides the ones already attached to the SKs, had long become extinct. (Which I found odd and obviously balance motivated.) Theese are just technicalities, of course.
#14 Pennarin Nov 02, 2003 1:56:16	Originally posted by Lurking Shadow So being a Champion of Rajaat is still not enough to attract the vortices, acording to Kevin Melka. Kevin Melka took a lot of liberties with the material he wrote, such as making Ktandeo an halfling... I believe the established idea is to disregard that statement and many others such as these, but not all. For example the halflings in Denning's novels are first shown to have preservers among them while later in the series the author states that they can't use arcane magic at all. That fundamental change of heart by Denning was not imported by the DS3 team, and don't forget there were issues of balance... Is this right guys? The status of the origin of the SKs ability to empower their templars is another such problem. For that one about half the people who know DS really like the idea of the Vortices and the other half disregards them and go Abbey's way: a dark lens connection at the moment of their creation as champions. Until the epic spells, dragon metamorphosis and templates are revealled by the DS3 team, we won't know which way was chosen. ;)
#15 flip Nov 02, 2003 2:11:38	Originally posted by Lurking Shadow If I recall correctly, the Dragon Kings accessory stated that new Dragons did not gain the abillity to grant spells, and that the living vortices, besides the ones already attached to the SKs, had long become extinct. (Which I found odd and obviously balance motivated.) This is true, and I'd mentioned as much in an earier draft ... but the boards respond oddly when you hit the escape key (and I use vi, so the escape key is very natural for me ...) in my rewrite, I managed to fail to mention that part ... You're absoltuely correct: Nobody "new" will get the chance to grant spells ...