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Thorn Knights and Wizards

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 5:10:30 Is it possible for a wizard to become a Thorn Knight. The wizards of high sorcery draw there magic from the moons but are there any other deities that give there worshipers arcane magic. Because in the Chaos war Takhisis gave her Thorn Knights arcane magic. I was also wandering would a black robe attack a thorn knight or are the black robes working with the KoN.

1. Can a wizard who worships Nuitari become a Thorn Knight?
2. Are there any other deities that give there worshipers arcane magic?
3.Is it possible for a wizard of high sorcery to who has taken the test to betray the WoHS and become a Thorn Knight.
4. How are the relations between the WoHS and the KoN.
#2
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 5:23:18 Black Robes hate the Knights of Nereka. The Thorn Knights see themselves monopolizing magic. They are against the Wizards of High Sorcery and as such enemies of the Black Robes as well as their Red and White brethren.
#3
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 5:25:54 1. They don't really get along.
2. No. Takhisis shouldn't even have been doing it when she was. Takhisis was only capable of channeling the arcane magic of the moons to her knights for a very short time. It is assumed that eventually the three gods of magic would have been able to rebuff her and reclaim their monopoly on the arcane.
3. Oh yes, betrayal is an option. The you're just a double enemy.
4. Bad. bad, bad, bad. Well, since the WoHS just got restarted and the Thorn Knights no longer follow Takhisis its possible that it may change... but probably bad.
#4
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 5:33:16 Is it possible to be a wizard Thorn Knight? Because it says in DLCS that most of the Thorn Knights turned to sorcery when takhisis died, not all of them. So is it possible for a 4th level wizard who draws his magic from the moons of magic to become a Thorn Knight and don´t take the test?
#5
Dragonhelm
Oct 31, 2003 7:05:44
Originally posted by The Sidekick
1. Can a wizard who worships Nuitari become a Thorn Knight?
2. Are there any other deities that give there worshipers arcane magic?
3.Is it possible for a wizard of high sorcery to who has taken the test to betray the WoHS and become a Thorn Knight.
4. How are the relations between the WoHS and the KoN.

1. No. Wizards who follow Nuitari become black robe mages.
2. Only Takhisis, and at that, she shouldn't have.
3. Certainly. The wizard would then be a renegade, and any renegade wizard can become a Thorn Knight.
4. Not so smurfy. ;)

The way I see it, Takhisis likes to play at being a "magic siphon". She did it in the Chaos War by stealing some of the magic of the moon gods, and redirecting it towards the Thorn Knights. She does it again in the War of Souls, when the souls of the dead steal magic.

Most wizards who become Thorn Knights do so in the Chaos War. You may have the occasional renegade wizard who joins the Thorn Knights.

In the current day and age, the Thorn Knights are made up of sorcerers. The moon gods are back, but Takhisis isn't around to redirect their magic. You may have your occasional renegade wizard, but the chance of that is miniscule. I imagine they'll stick to using sorcerers for now.

Hope that helps.
#6
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 8:43:09 I can see straight-up renegades being Thorn Knights as well. There were tones of gray robes back in the days of the Age of Might (Kaz messed with a whole group of them), and many gray robes still existed in the War of Lance, which ultimately got them assimilated into the Knights of Takhisis as Thorn Knights, but they often still go by their old name of gray robes.
#7
Dragonhelm
Oct 31, 2003 8:59:15
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
I can see straight-up renegades being Thorn Knights as well. There were tones of gray robes back in the days of the Age of Might (Kaz messed with a whole group of them), and many gray robes still existed in the War of Lance, which ultimately got them assimilated into the Knights of Takhisis as Thorn Knights, but they often still go by their old name of gray robes.

I think you're thinking of brown robes, which (according to Knaak) are the robes of a renegade.

Grey robes, worn only by the Thorn Knights, did not come about until the founding of the Knights of Takhisis.
#8
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 9:11:04 If I was a reneagade, my robes would be blue. That way I would be a wiz and get all the honeys. Plus my robes wouldn't be poop collored, thats allways a bonus.
#9
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 9:12:33 I thought the minotaur mages wore grey. Or am I mixing Talada into the deal?
#10
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 9:13:46 Plaid, dude. I'd definitely go for plaid robes.

I hope I spelled that right.
#11
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 11:14:18 1. That has yet to be determined. Originally the Thorn Knights were renegade wizards who worshipped Takhisis, who sought to supplant even her own consort and son as a supreme deity. Before the Chaos War, some Black Robes decamped and became Grey Robes. This was seen as an act of treason by the Black Robes and much ugliness ensued.

2. No. Takhisis technically didn't either. She simply bent the rules, using her power as co-regent of creation, to allow the Grey Robes to draw power from all three moons. How long she would have gotten away with this is unclear.

3. Sure. Presumably a Wizard, especially a Black Robe, might decide to join up with the Thorn Knights if they thought it would be advantageous. But since that would involve hanging around with sorcerors, the Orders would probably view the traitor as a renegade. Whether Nuitari would withdraw their High Sorcery powers is not certain. Probably would.

4. Very bad. The Wizards launched an attack against the Thorn Knights heretical tower at Storm Keep back before the Chaos War but were repelled and many (including Justarius) were killed. Further conflict would have been inevitable, but the Chaos War resulted in the end of the Orders. Now that the Orders are back, and the Thorn Knights are primarily sorcerors, there's likely to be more ill-will in the air.
#12
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 11:51:28 If a WoHS would betray his brethren and try to join the Thorn Knights, would the KoN look at this as a crime against his fellow wizards and not trust him?
Beause the KoN are very strict and view disobiediance to their superiors a very serious crime.

PS: You guys have been a lot of help:D
#13
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 15:32:29 no... i could have sworn i remember Kaz having to avoid some grey robed renegades who pledged their alligance to Takhisis, and decided not to draw upon the magic of the moons in the same way as the other robes.
#14
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 21:13:21
Originally posted by The Sidekick
If a WoHS would betray his brethren and try to join the Thorn Knights, would the KoN look at this as a crime against his fellow wizards and not trust him?
Beause the KoN are very strict and view disobiediance to their superiors a very serious crime.

PS: You guys have been a lot of help:D

Well, there was a Thorn Knight in Summer Flame that was a former Black Robe.
#15
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 23:22:00
Originally posted by The Sidekick
If a WoHS would betray his brethren and try to join the Thorn Knights, would the KoN look at this as a crime against his fellow wizards and not trust him?
Beause the KoN are very strict and view disobiediance to their superiors a very serious crime.

PS: You guys have been a lot of help:D

Most of the original Thorn Knights were former Black Robes that Takhisis recruited by offering them greater power in the form of the ability to draw magic from all three moons.

That being the case, Thorn Knights probably aren't going to hold someone's former affiliation with the Orders against them. Unless, of course, that person were obviously trying to remain in "communion" (so to speak) with the Orders.

In other words, they would NOT trust a Black Robe that was clearly trying to remain a Black Robe, since they would expect him or her to be an agent of the Orders. And the Orders have always been enemies of the Thorn Knights.
#16
zombiegleemax
Nov 02, 2003 21:00:45 Knights of the Thorn get their magic from the Dark Queen, wheile she was active. Nuitari would not give them spells beacuase they are renegades.
#17
zombiegleemax
Nov 02, 2003 23:02:18 It was explicitly stated in the statistical write-up for the Thorn Knights (a copy of which was provided at the back of the Second Generation paperback), that the Grey Robes drew power from all three of Krynn's moons, and that how Takhisis accomplished this was unclear. But they, like the Wizards of High Sorcery, had variable levels of power based on the phases of the moons (a table was provided with specifics), though they had a distinct advantage in that they could draw power from Solinari, Lunitari AND Nuitari.

So they were renegades, but their power was coming from the moons, not directly from Takhisis. The Dark Queen was, as usual, "borrowing" the things she needed to puff up her troops.
#18
Dragonhelm
Nov 02, 2003 23:31:17
Originally posted by Psionycx
It was explicitly stated in the statistical write-up for the Thorn Knights (a copy of which was provided at the back of the Second Generation paperback), that the Grey Robes drew power from all three of Krynn's moons, and that how Takhisis accomplished this was unclear. But they, like the Wizards of High Sorcery, had variable levels of power based on the phases of the moons (a table was provided with specifics), though they had a distinct advantage in that they could draw power from Solinari, Lunitari AND Nuitari.

Anyone ever try to use that chart in action in a game? If memory serves correctly, it's the standard chart for the WoHS. Yet how did one actually use that chart when all three moons came into play? Did the bonuses and penalties stack?
#19
cam_banks
Nov 03, 2003 8:19:09
Originally posted by Psionycx
But they, like the Wizards of High Sorcery, had variable levels of power based on the phases of the moons (a table was provided with specifics), though they had a distinct advantage in that they could draw power from Solinari, Lunitari AND Nuitari.

Because this was woefully unbalancing at times, however, this feature of the 2nd edition version of the Knights of Takhisis didn't survive into 3rd edition Dragonlance. Like other renegades and wizards who haven't passed the Test, the phases of the moons do not affect the Gray Robes.

Cheers,
Cam
#20
zombiegleemax
Nov 03, 2003 9:47:43
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Anyone ever try to use that chart in action in a game? If memory serves correctly, it's the standard chart for the WoHS. Yet how did one actually use that chart when all three moons came into play? Did the bonuses and penalties stack?

Yes they did, which reflected the enormous magical advantage the Thorn Knights had at the time.
#21
zombiegleemax
Nov 03, 2003 9:55:07
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Because this was woefully unbalancing at times, however, this feature of the 2nd edition version of the Knights of Takhisis didn't survive into 3rd edition Dragonlance. Like other renegades and wizards who haven't passed the Test, the phases of the moons do not affect the Gray Robes.

Cheers,
Cam

Of course it didn't survive, even though Takhisis wasn't granting them the magic directly, she was still granting them the ability to steal magic from Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari. With her gone, the only way they could get magic from the moons would be to take the Test and join the Orders like everyone else. Hence, they have chosen to stick with primal sorcery.

Of course it was woefully imbalancing at the time. It was meant to illustrate how Takhisis was willing to break the rules when it was to her advantage.
#22
cam_banks
Nov 03, 2003 11:20:34
Originally posted by Psionycx

Of course it was woefully imbalancing at the time. It was meant to illustrate how Takhisis was willing to break the rules when it was to her advantage.

I meant unbalanced in gameplay, rather than the actual reasons for it existing in the setting. I'm a firm believer in game balance providing a solid foundation for story, rather than story throwing game balance out the window (and making one or more players have a miserable time of it).

Cheers,
Cam
#23
dragontooth
Nov 03, 2003 12:34:06 Yes in the Legend of Huma the Renegades wore grey robes, or any color robes they liked. Re-reading the book now.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 5:10:30	Is it possible for a wizard to become a Thorn Knight. The wizards of high sorcery draw there magic from the moons but are there any other deities that give there worshipers arcane magic. Because in the Chaos war Takhisis gave her Thorn Knights arcane magic. I was also wandering would a black robe attack a thorn knight or are the black robes working with the KoN. 1. Can a wizard who worships Nuitari become a Thorn Knight? 2. Are there any other deities that give there worshipers arcane magic? 3.Is it possible for a wizard of high sorcery to who has taken the test to betray the WoHS and become a Thorn Knight. 4. How are the relations between the WoHS and the KoN.
#2 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 5:23:18	Black Robes hate the Knights of Nereka. The Thorn Knights see themselves monopolizing magic. They are against the Wizards of High Sorcery and as such enemies of the Black Robes as well as their Red and White brethren.
#3 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 5:25:54	1. They don't really get along. 2. No. Takhisis shouldn't even have been doing it when she was. Takhisis was only capable of channeling the arcane magic of the moons to her knights for a very short time. It is assumed that eventually the three gods of magic would have been able to rebuff her and reclaim their monopoly on the arcane. 3. Oh yes, betrayal is an option. The you're just a double enemy. 4. Bad. bad, bad, bad. Well, since the WoHS just got restarted and the Thorn Knights no longer follow Takhisis its possible that it may change... but probably bad.
#4 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 5:33:16	Is it possible to be a wizard Thorn Knight? Because it says in DLCS that most of the Thorn Knights turned to sorcery when takhisis died, not all of them. So is it possible for a 4th level wizard who draws his magic from the moons of magic to become a Thorn Knight and don´t take the test?
#5 Dragonhelm Oct 31, 2003 7:05:44	Originally posted by The Sidekick 1. Can a wizard who worships Nuitari become a Thorn Knight? 2. Are there any other deities that give there worshipers arcane magic? 3.Is it possible for a wizard of high sorcery to who has taken the test to betray the WoHS and become a Thorn Knight. 4. How are the relations between the WoHS and the KoN. 1. No. Wizards who follow Nuitari become black robe mages. 2. Only Takhisis, and at that, she shouldn't have. 3. Certainly. The wizard would then be a renegade, and any renegade wizard can become a Thorn Knight. 4. Not so smurfy. ;) The way I see it, Takhisis likes to play at being a "magic siphon". She did it in the Chaos War by stealing some of the magic of the moon gods, and redirecting it towards the Thorn Knights. She does it again in the War of Souls, when the souls of the dead steal magic. Most wizards who become Thorn Knights do so in the Chaos War. You may have the occasional renegade wizard who joins the Thorn Knights. In the current day and age, the Thorn Knights are made up of sorcerers. The moon gods are back, but Takhisis isn't around to redirect their magic. You may have your occasional renegade wizard, but the chance of that is miniscule. I imagine they'll stick to using sorcerers for now. Hope that helps.
#6 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 8:43:09	I can see straight-up renegades being Thorn Knights as well. There were tones of gray robes back in the days of the Age of Might (Kaz messed with a whole group of them), and many gray robes still existed in the War of Lance, which ultimately got them assimilated into the Knights of Takhisis as Thorn Knights, but they often still go by their old name of gray robes.
#7 Dragonhelm Oct 31, 2003 8:59:15	Originally posted by Magus_Extreme I can see straight-up renegades being Thorn Knights as well. There were tones of gray robes back in the days of the Age of Might (Kaz messed with a whole group of them), and many gray robes still existed in the War of Lance, which ultimately got them assimilated into the Knights of Takhisis as Thorn Knights, but they often still go by their old name of gray robes. I think you're thinking of brown robes, which (according to Knaak) are the robes of a renegade. Grey robes, worn only by the Thorn Knights, did not come about until the founding of the Knights of Takhisis.
#8 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 9:11:04	If I was a reneagade, my robes would be blue. That way I would be a wiz and get all the honeys. Plus my robes wouldn't be poop collored, thats allways a bonus.
#9 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 9:12:33	I thought the minotaur mages wore grey. Or am I mixing Talada into the deal?
#10 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 9:13:46	Plaid, dude. I'd definitely go for plaid robes. I hope I spelled that right.
#11 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 11:14:18	1. That has yet to be determined. Originally the Thorn Knights were renegade wizards who worshipped Takhisis, who sought to supplant even her own consort and son as a supreme deity. Before the Chaos War, some Black Robes decamped and became Grey Robes. This was seen as an act of treason by the Black Robes and much ugliness ensued. 2. No. Takhisis technically didn't either. She simply bent the rules, using her power as co-regent of creation, to allow the Grey Robes to draw power from all three moons. How long she would have gotten away with this is unclear. 3. Sure. Presumably a Wizard, especially a Black Robe, might decide to join up with the Thorn Knights if they thought it would be advantageous. But since that would involve hanging around with sorcerors, the Orders would probably view the traitor as a renegade. Whether Nuitari would withdraw their High Sorcery powers is not certain. Probably would. 4. Very bad. The Wizards launched an attack against the Thorn Knights heretical tower at Storm Keep back before the Chaos War but were repelled and many (including Justarius) were killed. Further conflict would have been inevitable, but the Chaos War resulted in the end of the Orders. Now that the Orders are back, and the Thorn Knights are primarily sorcerors, there's likely to be more ill-will in the air.
#12 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 11:51:28	If a WoHS would betray his brethren and try to join the Thorn Knights, would the KoN look at this as a crime against his fellow wizards and not trust him? Beause the KoN are very strict and view disobiediance to their superiors a very serious crime. PS: You guys have been a lot of help:D
#13 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 15:32:29	no... i could have sworn i remember Kaz having to avoid some grey robed renegades who pledged their alligance to Takhisis, and decided not to draw upon the magic of the moons in the same way as the other robes.
#14 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 21:13:21	Originally posted by The Sidekick If a WoHS would betray his brethren and try to join the Thorn Knights, would the KoN look at this as a crime against his fellow wizards and not trust him? Beause the KoN are very strict and view disobiediance to their superiors a very serious crime. PS: You guys have been a lot of help:D Well, there was a Thorn Knight in Summer Flame that was a former Black Robe.
#15 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 23:22:00	Originally posted by The Sidekick If a WoHS would betray his brethren and try to join the Thorn Knights, would the KoN look at this as a crime against his fellow wizards and not trust him? Beause the KoN are very strict and view disobiediance to their superiors a very serious crime. PS: You guys have been a lot of help:D Most of the original Thorn Knights were former Black Robes that Takhisis recruited by offering them greater power in the form of the ability to draw magic from all three moons. That being the case, Thorn Knights probably aren't going to hold someone's former affiliation with the Orders against them. Unless, of course, that person were obviously trying to remain in "communion" (so to speak) with the Orders. In other words, they would NOT trust a Black Robe that was clearly trying to remain a Black Robe, since they would expect him or her to be an agent of the Orders. And the Orders have always been enemies of the Thorn Knights.
#16 zombiegleemax Nov 02, 2003 21:00:45	Knights of the Thorn get their magic from the Dark Queen, wheile she was active. Nuitari would not give them spells beacuase they are renegades.
#17 zombiegleemax Nov 02, 2003 23:02:18	It was explicitly stated in the statistical write-up for the Thorn Knights (a copy of which was provided at the back of the Second Generation paperback), that the Grey Robes drew power from all three of Krynn's moons, and that how Takhisis accomplished this was unclear. But they, like the Wizards of High Sorcery, had variable levels of power based on the phases of the moons (a table was provided with specifics), though they had a distinct advantage in that they could draw power from Solinari, Lunitari AND Nuitari. So they were renegades, but their power was coming from the moons, not directly from Takhisis. The Dark Queen was, as usual, "borrowing" the things she needed to puff up her troops.
#18 Dragonhelm Nov 02, 2003 23:31:17	Originally posted by Psionycx It was explicitly stated in the statistical write-up for the Thorn Knights (a copy of which was provided at the back of the Second Generation paperback), that the Grey Robes drew power from all three of Krynn's moons, and that how Takhisis accomplished this was unclear. But they, like the Wizards of High Sorcery, had variable levels of power based on the phases of the moons (a table was provided with specifics), though they had a distinct advantage in that they could draw power from Solinari, Lunitari AND Nuitari. Anyone ever try to use that chart in action in a game? If memory serves correctly, it's the standard chart for the WoHS. Yet how did one actually use that chart when all three moons came into play? Did the bonuses and penalties stack?
#19 cam_banks Nov 03, 2003 8:19:09	Originally posted by Psionycx But they, like the Wizards of High Sorcery, had variable levels of power based on the phases of the moons (a table was provided with specifics), though they had a distinct advantage in that they could draw power from Solinari, Lunitari AND Nuitari. Because this was woefully unbalancing at times, however, this feature of the 2nd edition version of the Knights of Takhisis didn't survive into 3rd edition Dragonlance. Like other renegades and wizards who haven't passed the Test, the phases of the moons do not affect the Gray Robes. Cheers, Cam
#20 zombiegleemax Nov 03, 2003 9:47:43	Originally posted by Dragonhelm Anyone ever try to use that chart in action in a game? If memory serves correctly, it's the standard chart for the WoHS. Yet how did one actually use that chart when all three moons came into play? Did the bonuses and penalties stack? Yes they did, which reflected the enormous magical advantage the Thorn Knights had at the time.
#21 zombiegleemax Nov 03, 2003 9:55:07	Originally posted by Cam Banks Because this was woefully unbalancing at times, however, this feature of the 2nd edition version of the Knights of Takhisis didn't survive into 3rd edition Dragonlance. Like other renegades and wizards who haven't passed the Test, the phases of the moons do not affect the Gray Robes. Cheers, Cam Of course it didn't survive, even though Takhisis wasn't granting them the magic directly, she was still granting them the ability to steal magic from Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari. With her gone, the only way they could get magic from the moons would be to take the Test and join the Orders like everyone else. Hence, they have chosen to stick with primal sorcery. Of course it was woefully imbalancing at the time. It was meant to illustrate how Takhisis was willing to break the rules when it was to her advantage.
#22 cam_banks Nov 03, 2003 11:20:34	Originally posted by Psionycx Of course it was woefully imbalancing at the time. It was meant to illustrate how Takhisis was willing to break the rules when it was to her advantage. I meant unbalanced in gameplay, rather than the actual reasons for it existing in the setting. I'm a firm believer in game balance providing a solid foundation for story, rather than story throwing game balance out the window (and making one or more players have a miserable time of it). Cheers, Cam
#23 dragontooth Nov 03, 2003 12:34:06	Yes in the Legend of Huma the Renegades wore grey robes, or any color robes they liked. Re-reading the book now.