Wizards and WoHS? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Wizards and WoHS?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
themind
Oct 31, 2003 9:23:36 Ok, i know that Wizards and the other arcane spellcasters have to take the Test when they get 2nd level spells, but the question i have is do they have to take the WoHS prestige class when they pass it?

I would assume that they would, but I'm not 100% sure on it and wanted to find out from you guys.
#2
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 9:44:02 3rd level spells, actually, unless I'm mistaken.

And no, they don't. Technically. If you pass the test, you pass the est, congrats, you're a WoHS. But it's strongly encouraged that a character take at least one level of the Prestige class, if only to get the Moon Magic and Item of Power and School focus (if you're going that route). It adds a very specific flavor to the character, but no, technically a character is not required to take levels of the prestige class after they pass the test.

However, as a DM, you have the option of requiring someone to take a level (at least) of the class. I do.
#3
brimstone
Oct 31, 2003 10:31:37 The way I understood it was that you had to take the Test anytime before you could cast 3rd level spells. Once you could cast 3rd level spells...if you haven't passed the Test yet...you were a Renegade.

At least...that's how I always handled it.
#4
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 10:48:35 True, but renegades are welcome to submit to taking the Test and joining the Orders later on. Indeed, I recall that White Robes, and sometimes Red Robes, will offer renegades that option rather than try to destroy them flat-out.

Personally I would rule that anyone that takes the Test advances to 1st level in the WoHS prestige class, but is under no obligation to advance it any further if they want to continue to focus their experience into their main Wizard class.
#5
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 10:48:39 ...Dammit. Now that I think about that, yeah, that's right. So it's take the test before you get to third level spells.

I'm sorry I suck. I try not to, I really do, but I just can't help myself.
#6
cam_banks
Oct 31, 2003 10:55:15
Originally posted by Psionycx

Personally I would rule that anyone that takes the Test advances to 1st level in the WoHS prestige class, but is under no obligation to advance it any further if they want to continue to focus their experience into their main Wizard class.

Unless the Test actually gave the wizard enough experience points to advance to the next level (and thus take the 1st level of WoHS) this would be a bad idea. Although I assume this is what you meant.

Cheers,
Cam
#7
brimstone
Oct 31, 2003 11:03:41
Originally posted by The Udjat
I'm sorry I suck. I try not to, I really do, but I just can't help myself.

AH...crap. Don't say that Udjat! That's just going to make more people hate me because I'm acting superior or being demeaning towards you or something. And really...one heckler is all my fragile ego can handle. ;)

Seriously though...that's not so bad...for the longest time, I thought the wizard had to take the test before he reached 3rd Level. So I was having a hard time understanding how anyone ever survived the test.
#8
kalanth
Oct 31, 2003 11:03:49 Yeah, I required my lone wizard to take a level in WoHS. Course, after he took the first level, he started looking at the WoHS PrC, and realized how cool it really is. So he now plans on taking all 10 levels in that, then taking the 5 levels of Arch Mage when he is done.
#9
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 12:24:57
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Unless the Test actually gave the wizard enough experience points to advance to the next level (and thus take the 1st level of WoHS) this would be a bad idea. Although I assume this is what you meant.

Cheers,
Cam

The Test is a virtual reality scenario that can turn into an adventure unto itself. So it's fairly easy to paly with the experience totals to justify a level addition, especially if the character was already on the cusp of advancement (as many who go to take the Test are).

From a role-playing persepctive, it seems pointless to take the Test and not have the characteristics of a WoHS afterwards. The Test is supposed to be one of the most important, life-altering experiences a wizard will EVER have in their whole life. Treating it as something you just walk in and do, and then walk out and go about your business as if it were an SAT greatly devalues the experience and undermines the whole point.
#10
cam_banks
Oct 31, 2003 12:45:59
Originally posted by Psionycx

From a role-playing persepctive, it seems pointless to take the Test and not have the characteristics of a WoHS afterwards. The Test is supposed to be one of the most important, life-altering experiences a wizard will EVER have in their whole life. Treating it as something you just walk in and do, and then walk out and go about your business as if it were an SAT greatly devalues the experience and undermines the whole point.

Oh, I agree. My point is that nobody should just be given a free character level for taking the Test unless the Test itself provides the necessary advancement. In addition, if the wizard doesn't have all the requirements to enter the prestige class, such as Spell Focus, they're not going to be getting into it until they meet those requirements.

Wizards of High Sorcery should definitely plan out their first 4 levels carefully so that by the time they get to the Test, they're primed to pick up the PrC.

Cheers,
Cam
#11
brimstone
Oct 31, 2003 12:49:46
Originally posted by Cam Banks
My point is that nobody should just be given a free character level for taking the Test unless the Test itself provides the necessary advancement.

Well...I've only run a Test using SAGA, but I would think that at that low of a level, all by yourself...if you followed the outline of a Test (as proposed in the DLCS) I really don't see how there's anyway you could pass the Test and not go up in level.

Do you agree? Or am I kinda out in left field on this one?
#12
cam_banks
Oct 31, 2003 13:04:04
Originally posted by Brimstone
Well...I've only run a Test using SAGA, but I would think that at that low of a level, all by yourself...if you followed the outline of a Test (as proposed in the DLCS) I really don't see how there's anyway you could pass the Test and not go up in level.

Do you agree? Or am I kinda out in left field on this one?

The Test would be designed by the DM to provide sufficient XP to advance the wizard. If it wasn't, then that's mainly the fault of the DM and not the player. If the player passes the Test and falls short of the XP or feat/skill requirements, tough cheese. They're a Wizard of High Sorcery in name only.

Cheers,
Cam
#13
kalanth
Oct 31, 2003 13:30:16
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The Test would be designed by the DM to provide sufficient XP to advance the wizard. If it wasn't, then that's mainly the fault of the DM and not the player. If the player passes the Test and falls short of the XP or feat/skill requirements, tough cheese. They're a Wizard of High Sorcery in name only.

Cheers,
Cam

Shoot. I didn't give any XP out to the Wizard when he took his test. I told him that the test is of your present abilities, and was not designed to increase them.
#14
themind
Oct 31, 2003 15:29:08 Wow, this helps a lot. I have another question though.

One of the PC's is going to play a Kender wizard. Yes, you heard me right, a Kender Wizard. What type of life altering change would you suggest for such a wizard?

Ive been thinking of something like losing his child-like demeanor or is curiosity or random objects.
#15
cam_banks
Oct 31, 2003 15:46:09
Originally posted by themind

Ive been thinking of something like losing his child-like demeanor or is curiosity or random objects.

Those are good choices, but what about intensifying or directing one of the typical kender traits towards arcane pursuits? A kender wizard might develop an insatiable thirst for arcane knowledge, collect spellbooks, magic items, wands, or any number of other magical things.

Alternately, they may become very narrow-minded and focused solely towards magic itself, putting everything else outside of their thoughts. A kender wizard may become a renegade hunter, using his innate and uncanny sense of detecting another person's weaknesses and "triggers" by taunting renegades out of hiding.

You could play up the fearlessness, making the kender wizard very reckless, or downplay it, making them much more paranoid. Perhaps the soulforge strips them of their fearlessness, replacing it with an overwhelming sense of their own place in the arcane world. They become supremely confident, perhaps even arrogant or elitist, brushing off any despair or attacks against their confidence.

Those are just some suggestions. Certainly, I wouldn't put it past an afflicted kender to be the result of a Test.

Cheers,
Cam
#16
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 23:32:53 As I said before, the Test is typically a full-blown adventure, even if it is somewhat illusionary. A good DM should be able to manage the timing of the Test so that it coincides with a level jump.

Alternately, you may want to go ahead and grant the 1st level of the WoHS prestige class even if the character was a little short on experience to actually make the jump, but still require that they earn the necessary experience both for what that would have cost and for their next level (in whatever class) before they advance further (i.e. they still have to earn the experience, you'd just be granting them an advance).

As for a kender wizard, I would recommend that the Test add some level of seriousness to them. Not the extent of affliction (unless they're already afflicted), but to showing them the terrible potential of magic, as well as it's wonder. Perhaps something like the scenario where Raistlin killed Caramon during his Test, an act that haunted both of them afterwards.
#17
stunspore
Nov 06, 2003 19:49:51 You could also give a curse to the kender wizard, like a spiritual or mental wound that never heals. Something in the order of developing a phobia e.g. fight and almost lose to big spider demon therefore fear spiders.
#18
Dragonhelm
Nov 06, 2003 21:37:31
Originally posted by themind
Wow, this helps a lot. I have another question though.

One of the PC's is going to play a Kender wizard. Yes, you heard me right, a Kender Wizard. What type of life altering change would you suggest for such a wizard?

Ive been thinking of something like losing his child-like demeanor or is curiosity or random objects.

You're definitely on the right track. Here's an article I wrote which may help you out with this:

So, you want to play a kender wizard?

Edit: I just noticed the intro is out of date! lol
#19
kipper_snifferdoo_02
Nov 07, 2003 7:40:13
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Wizards of High Sorcery should definitely plan out their first 4 levels carefully so that by the time they get to the Test, they're primed to pick up the PrC.

I've been thinking about that actually. I have a wizard that is gearing to being a Red-robed transfiguration specialist. So she is taking the proper school and skills and feats for a red-robe… now what happens if she takes the test and is actually a white robe and not a red robe? Then what? She is in the wrong school. Do I just make her a red robed despite her actions during the test?
#20
kipper_snifferdoo_02
Nov 07, 2003 7:47:11
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Those are just some suggestions. Certainly, I wouldn't put it past an afflicted kender to be the result of a Test.

Personally I would go with losing the Fearlessness. Enhancing their curiosity or fearlessness (of which they are already immune) could make them reckless PC (more so than now) and could mess with your game. If the price of magic is loosing their fearlessness then he REALLY had to pay a price for his magic. Is it worth that to the player/character? If not then maybe he should just dabble in magic.

Giving a true kender gold skin or some other physical change would just make them unique and they would probably be proud of it, not alienated.

Now giving him something like visions of a person’s death when he touches someone might be interesting. That could definitely change a kender’s point of view, but allow him to retain his fearlessness... *shrug* just some ideas
#21
cam_banks
Nov 07, 2003 9:26:13
Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo
I've been thinking about that actually. I have a wizard that is gearing to being a Red-robed transfiguration specialist. So she is taking the proper school and skills and feats for a red-robe… now what happens if she takes the test and is actually a white robe and not a red robe? Then what? She is in the wrong school. Do I just make her a red robed despite her actions during the test?

Well, is she already a transmuter? If so, and it turns out she's not actually neutral but good, then she's going to be in quite a pickle. In that case, I would do one of two things after the Test.

1. Have her switch her transmutation specialty to either divination or abjuration. If she changes to divination, she can manage to keep transmutation by choosing necromancy as her banned school from being a specialist, and illusion as her additional banned school from her 1st level in WoHS. If she was an abjurer she'd need to have one more banned school and it would need to be transmutation, which wouldn't make much sense.
2. Allow her to keep her transmutation specialty, but make sure that her banned schools are illusion, necromancy and enchantment. Keep her access to the White Robe specialist schools open, in other words.

There are several options, really, and they all involve messing with some of the requirements. The bottom line, though, is that the magic of transmutation is blessed by Lunitari, not Solinari, and if she ends up proving herself to be a White Robe, there should be consequences for that shift in alignment.

Cheers,
Cam
#22
The_White_Sorcerer
Nov 07, 2003 9:33:14
Originally posted by Cam Banks
...and it would need to be transmutation...

Why? Couldn't it be Enchantment?
#23
cam_banks
Nov 07, 2003 10:59:47
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
Why? Couldn't it be Enchantment?

...no reason, now that I think of it. Ahem. I'll just be over here trying to catch up on my lack of sleep.

Cheers,
Cam
#24
The_White_Sorcerer
Nov 07, 2003 11:07:03
Originally posted by Cam Banks
...no reason, now that I think of it.

Oh, good. I don't have access to the DLCS right now, so I wanted to make sure there wasn't such a restriction.
#25
zombiegleemax
Nov 08, 2003 16:32:02 I view role-playing games as role-playing first, stats second.

And so I would force my players to take a level of WoHS if they took the test, because after the test they'd be one, they'd be let in on the secrets, they'd be given a gift, etc. etc. And so they'd HAVE a level of WoHS.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 themind Oct 31, 2003 9:23:36	Ok, i know that Wizards and the other arcane spellcasters have to take the Test when they get 2nd level spells, but the question i have is do they have to take the WoHS prestige class when they pass it? I would assume that they would, but I'm not 100% sure on it and wanted to find out from you guys.
#2 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 9:44:02	3rd level spells, actually, unless I'm mistaken. And no, they don't. Technically. If you pass the test, you pass the est, congrats, you're a WoHS. But it's strongly encouraged that a character take at least one level of the Prestige class, if only to get the Moon Magic and Item of Power and School focus (if you're going that route). It adds a very specific flavor to the character, but no, technically a character is not required to take levels of the prestige class after they pass the test. However, as a DM, you have the option of requiring someone to take a level (at least) of the class. I do.
#3 brimstone Oct 31, 2003 10:31:37	The way I understood it was that you had to take the Test anytime before you could cast 3rd level spells. Once you could cast 3rd level spells...if you haven't passed the Test yet...you were a Renegade. At least...that's how I always handled it.
#4 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 10:48:35	True, but renegades are welcome to submit to taking the Test and joining the Orders later on. Indeed, I recall that White Robes, and sometimes Red Robes, will offer renegades that option rather than try to destroy them flat-out. Personally I would rule that anyone that takes the Test advances to 1st level in the WoHS prestige class, but is under no obligation to advance it any further if they want to continue to focus their experience into their main Wizard class.
#5 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 10:48:39	...Dammit. Now that I think about that, yeah, that's right. So it's take the test before you get to third level spells. I'm sorry I suck. I try not to, I really do, but I just can't help myself.
#6 cam_banks Oct 31, 2003 10:55:15	Originally posted by Psionycx Personally I would rule that anyone that takes the Test advances to 1st level in the WoHS prestige class, but is under no obligation to advance it any further if they want to continue to focus their experience into their main Wizard class. Unless the Test actually gave the wizard enough experience points to advance to the next level (and thus take the 1st level of WoHS) this would be a bad idea. Although I assume this is what you meant. Cheers, Cam
#7 brimstone Oct 31, 2003 11:03:41	Originally posted by The Udjat I'm sorry I suck. I try not to, I really do, but I just can't help myself. AH...crap. Don't say that Udjat! That's just going to make more people hate me because I'm acting superior or being demeaning towards you or something. And really...one heckler is all my fragile ego can handle. ;) Seriously though...that's not so bad...for the longest time, I thought the wizard had to take the test before he reached 3rd Level. So I was having a hard time understanding how anyone ever survived the test.
#8 kalanth Oct 31, 2003 11:03:49	Yeah, I required my lone wizard to take a level in WoHS. Course, after he took the first level, he started looking at the WoHS PrC, and realized how cool it really is. So he now plans on taking all 10 levels in that, then taking the 5 levels of Arch Mage when he is done.
#9 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 12:24:57	Originally posted by Cam Banks Unless the Test actually gave the wizard enough experience points to advance to the next level (and thus take the 1st level of WoHS) this would be a bad idea. Although I assume this is what you meant. Cheers, Cam The Test is a virtual reality scenario that can turn into an adventure unto itself. So it's fairly easy to paly with the experience totals to justify a level addition, especially if the character was already on the cusp of advancement (as many who go to take the Test are). From a role-playing persepctive, it seems pointless to take the Test and not have the characteristics of a WoHS afterwards. The Test is supposed to be one of the most important, life-altering experiences a wizard will EVER have in their whole life. Treating it as something you just walk in and do, and then walk out and go about your business as if it were an SAT greatly devalues the experience and undermines the whole point.
#10 cam_banks Oct 31, 2003 12:45:59	Originally posted by Psionycx From a role-playing persepctive, it seems pointless to take the Test and not have the characteristics of a WoHS afterwards. The Test is supposed to be one of the most important, life-altering experiences a wizard will EVER have in their whole life. Treating it as something you just walk in and do, and then walk out and go about your business as if it were an SAT greatly devalues the experience and undermines the whole point. Oh, I agree. My point is that nobody should just be given a free character level for taking the Test unless the Test itself provides the necessary advancement. In addition, if the wizard doesn't have all the requirements to enter the prestige class, such as Spell Focus, they're not going to be getting into it until they meet those requirements. Wizards of High Sorcery should definitely plan out their first 4 levels carefully so that by the time they get to the Test, they're primed to pick up the PrC. Cheers, Cam
#11 brimstone Oct 31, 2003 12:49:46	Originally posted by Cam Banks My point is that nobody should just be given a free character level for taking the Test unless the Test itself provides the necessary advancement. Well...I've only run a Test using SAGA, but I would think that at that low of a level, all by yourself...if you followed the outline of a Test (as proposed in the DLCS) I really don't see how there's anyway you could pass the Test and not go up in level. Do you agree? Or am I kinda out in left field on this one?
#12 cam_banks Oct 31, 2003 13:04:04	Originally posted by Brimstone Well...I've only run a Test using SAGA, but I would think that at that low of a level, all by yourself...if you followed the outline of a Test (as proposed in the DLCS) I really don't see how there's anyway you could pass the Test and not go up in level. Do you agree? Or am I kinda out in left field on this one? The Test would be designed by the DM to provide sufficient XP to advance the wizard. If it wasn't, then that's mainly the fault of the DM and not the player. If the player passes the Test and falls short of the XP or feat/skill requirements, tough cheese. They're a Wizard of High Sorcery in name only. Cheers, Cam
#13 kalanth Oct 31, 2003 13:30:16	Originally posted by Cam Banks The Test would be designed by the DM to provide sufficient XP to advance the wizard. If it wasn't, then that's mainly the fault of the DM and not the player. If the player passes the Test and falls short of the XP or feat/skill requirements, tough cheese. They're a Wizard of High Sorcery in name only. Cheers, Cam Shoot. I didn't give any XP out to the Wizard when he took his test. I told him that the test is of your present abilities, and was not designed to increase them.
#14 themind Oct 31, 2003 15:29:08	Wow, this helps a lot. I have another question though. One of the PC's is going to play a Kender wizard. Yes, you heard me right, a Kender Wizard. What type of life altering change would you suggest for such a wizard? Ive been thinking of something like losing his child-like demeanor or is curiosity or random objects.
#15 cam_banks Oct 31, 2003 15:46:09	Originally posted by themind Ive been thinking of something like losing his child-like demeanor or is curiosity or random objects. Those are good choices, but what about intensifying or directing one of the typical kender traits towards arcane pursuits? A kender wizard might develop an insatiable thirst for arcane knowledge, collect spellbooks, magic items, wands, or any number of other magical things. Alternately, they may become very narrow-minded and focused solely towards magic itself, putting everything else outside of their thoughts. A kender wizard may become a renegade hunter, using his innate and uncanny sense of detecting another person's weaknesses and "triggers" by taunting renegades out of hiding. You could play up the fearlessness, making the kender wizard very reckless, or downplay it, making them much more paranoid. Perhaps the soulforge strips them of their fearlessness, replacing it with an overwhelming sense of their own place in the arcane world. They become supremely confident, perhaps even arrogant or elitist, brushing off any despair or attacks against their confidence. Those are just some suggestions. Certainly, I wouldn't put it past an afflicted kender to be the result of a Test. Cheers, Cam
#16 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 23:32:53	As I said before, the Test is typically a full-blown adventure, even if it is somewhat illusionary. A good DM should be able to manage the timing of the Test so that it coincides with a level jump. Alternately, you may want to go ahead and grant the 1st level of the WoHS prestige class even if the character was a little short on experience to actually make the jump, but still require that they earn the necessary experience both for what that would have cost and for their next level (in whatever class) before they advance further (i.e. they still have to earn the experience, you'd just be granting them an advance). As for a kender wizard, I would recommend that the Test add some level of seriousness to them. Not the extent of affliction (unless they're already afflicted), but to showing them the terrible potential of magic, as well as it's wonder. Perhaps something like the scenario where Raistlin killed Caramon during his Test, an act that haunted both of them afterwards.
#17 stunspore Nov 06, 2003 19:49:51	You could also give a curse to the kender wizard, like a spiritual or mental wound that never heals. Something in the order of developing a phobia e.g. fight and almost lose to big spider demon therefore fear spiders.
#18 Dragonhelm Nov 06, 2003 21:37:31	Originally posted by themind Wow, this helps a lot. I have another question though. One of the PC's is going to play a Kender wizard. Yes, you heard me right, a Kender Wizard. What type of life altering change would you suggest for such a wizard? Ive been thinking of something like losing his child-like demeanor or is curiosity or random objects. You're definitely on the right track. Here's an article I wrote which may help you out with this: So, you want to play a kender wizard? Edit: I just noticed the intro is out of date! lol
#19 kipper_snifferdoo_02 Nov 07, 2003 7:40:13	Originally posted by Cam Banks Wizards of High Sorcery should definitely plan out their first 4 levels carefully so that by the time they get to the Test, they're primed to pick up the PrC. I've been thinking about that actually. I have a wizard that is gearing to being a Red-robed transfiguration specialist. So she is taking the proper school and skills and feats for a red-robe… now what happens if she takes the test and is actually a white robe and not a red robe? Then what? She is in the wrong school. Do I just make her a red robed despite her actions during the test?
#20 kipper_snifferdoo_02 Nov 07, 2003 7:47:11	Originally posted by Cam Banks Those are just some suggestions. Certainly, I wouldn't put it past an afflicted kender to be the result of a Test. Personally I would go with losing the Fearlessness. Enhancing their curiosity or fearlessness (of which they are already immune) could make them reckless PC (more so than now) and could mess with your game. If the price of magic is loosing their fearlessness then he REALLY had to pay a price for his magic. Is it worth that to the player/character? If not then maybe he should just dabble in magic. Giving a true kender gold skin or some other physical change would just make them unique and they would probably be proud of it, not alienated. Now giving him something like visions of a person’s death when he touches someone might be interesting. That could definitely change a kender’s point of view, but allow him to retain his fearlessness... shrug just some ideas
#21 cam_banks Nov 07, 2003 9:26:13	Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo I've been thinking about that actually. I have a wizard that is gearing to being a Red-robed transfiguration specialist. So she is taking the proper school and skills and feats for a red-robe… now what happens if she takes the test and is actually a white robe and not a red robe? Then what? She is in the wrong school. Do I just make her a red robed despite her actions during the test? Well, is she already a transmuter? If so, and it turns out she's not actually neutral but good, then she's going to be in quite a pickle. In that case, I would do one of two things after the Test. 1. Have her switch her transmutation specialty to either divination or abjuration. If she changes to divination, she can manage to keep transmutation by choosing necromancy as her banned school from being a specialist, and illusion as her additional banned school from her 1st level in WoHS. If she was an abjurer she'd need to have one more banned school and it would need to be transmutation, which wouldn't make much sense. 2. Allow her to keep her transmutation specialty, but make sure that her banned schools are illusion, necromancy and enchantment. Keep her access to the White Robe specialist schools open, in other words. There are several options, really, and they all involve messing with some of the requirements. The bottom line, though, is that the magic of transmutation is blessed by Lunitari, not Solinari, and if she ends up proving herself to be a White Robe, there should be consequences for that shift in alignment. Cheers, Cam
#22 The_White_Sorcerer Nov 07, 2003 9:33:14	Originally posted by Cam Banks ...and it would need to be transmutation... Why? Couldn't it be Enchantment?
#23 cam_banks Nov 07, 2003 10:59:47	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer Why? Couldn't it be Enchantment? ...no reason, now that I think of it. Ahem. I'll just be over here trying to catch up on my lack of sleep. Cheers, Cam
#24 The_White_Sorcerer Nov 07, 2003 11:07:03	Originally posted by Cam Banks ...no reason, now that I think of it. Oh, good. I don't have access to the DLCS right now, so I wanted to make sure there wasn't such a restriction.
#25 zombiegleemax Nov 08, 2003 16:32:02	I view role-playing games as role-playing first, stats second. And so I would force my players to take a level of WoHS if they took the test, because after the test they'd be one, they'd be let in on the secrets, they'd be given a gift, etc. etc. And so they'd HAVE a level of WoHS.