--holding out hope NB
And we all know, profits is what motivates major corporations.
As far as licenses go, I doubt it will happen here. Being that it is a niche fan base, I'm not so sure any company would make enough money to warrant the cost of the license. Plus, WotC's policy is that the initial sourcebook is produced by them (as illustrated with Oriental Adventures and Dragonlance).
I wish it were otherwise, but the realist in me says that a SJ license is not likely.
The trend that I'm seeing these days is for companies to put out SJ-like settings and products, but without infringing upon SJ copyright issues. Aether and Flux and the upcoming Spacebuckler are two of the big ones.
Also note that Bastion Press, headed by SJ enthusiast Jim Butler, decided to put out Airships, rather than go the route of the license. This was much more profitable for them, and gave us a fantastic sourcebook.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Spelljammer is a great setting, but it does have a few problems in regards to being published again. First is that it fits with too much of a niche audience. Secondly, it was built around other settings, and didn't stand on its own as well.
As far as licenses go, I doubt it will happen here. Being that it is a niche fan base, I'm not so sure any company would make enough money to warrant the cost of the license. Plus, WotC's policy is that the initial sourcebook is produced by them (as illustrated with Oriental Adventures and Dragonlance).
I wish it were otherwise, but the realist in me says that a SJ license is not likely.
The trend that I'm seeing these days is for companies to put out SJ-like settings and products, but without infringing upon SJ copyright issues. Aether and Flux and the upcoming Spacebuckler are two of the big ones.
Also note that Bastion Press, headed by SJ enthusiast Jim Butler, decided to put out Airships, rather than go the route of the license. This was much more profitable for them, and gave us a fantastic sourcebook.
Yep that just about covers it. Not profitable enough to warrent an investment on the part of a publisher. But there are some useful alternatives to SJ that mimic it's style without infringing on any copywrite. I made a race able to travel the "Eternal Sea" between worlds in their ships. Hence, a What IF? for Dragonlance I did some time back.
Originally posted by Xorial
The only way I think somebody will take the liscense for SJ, is for it to be a PDF publisher. That way they wouldnt have too great of an overhead. I would buy iy, but only if they avoided the crap that was in Dungeon. I like a little of that article, but not much.
PDF publisher couldn't afford the license, and PDFs rarely make money. Print will almost always outsell PDFs (1000s as opposed to 100s). And did you mean Polyhedreon, not Dungeon? ;) The Dungeon SJ adventures, such as they were, were usually very good
Originally posted by Nightdruid
PDF publisher couldn't afford the license, and PDFs rarely make money. Print will almost always outsell PDFs (1000s as opposed to 100s). And did you mean Polyhedreon, not Dungeon? ;) The Dungeon SJ adventures, such as they were, were usually very good
I know none of the PDF publishers can afford it. Yes, I meant POLY. I like all of the old 2e SJ adventures in my back issues. When I get a new group to play SJ, I invariably run some of those on them. My comment about PDFs is the fact that SJ has a loyal, though limited, following. A fullblown revision by a larger company is propably out of the question. The most I would hope for is a larger company, that does some PDFs, takes up the call. They could publish the PDF, which will have a lower overhead, and not be afraid of loosing too much. I Dont think a print product would sell enough to entice anybody else.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
First, you hand over a large sum of money ... then you get to produce the core book ... and then WotC keeps all profit from the core book, leaving you to make whatever profit you can off of the "scraps" like accessories and modules ... For something like SJ, any publisher would be looking at one massive, gaping hole to throw money into and never see a return on investment. That's why nobody will touch SJ (and most other old TSR worlds) with a 10' pole.
That's one way of looking at it. It's all about the money.
But then again what, exactly, is the IP bits of Spelljammer? What will your money really be buying the exclusive rights to use?
Not a whole heck of a lot, IMHO, once you par it down to essentials and strip any mention of other TSR/WoTC properties. What you are left with is.. ? The idea of the larger than life behemoth Spelljammer (and thus the name of said propety) and a core of characters and background races, most of which currently live in the SRD documents.
Now, if you don't use the name, ignore the "Spelljammer" itself, what you have is a universe that, at its core, presents a largely Pseudo-Euclidean cosmology. More or less. There is plenty of room to play around with cosmology, viz. the various games currently out there skirting the edges of Spelljammer's ID like Aether & Flux, Spacebuckler, and Dragonstar.
My point being: Who says a fantasy space game has to necessarily use the Spelljammer material?
Let's not forget there was also Space 1889, something that Shadows of the Spider Moon could probably be easily wed to, conceptually speaking. After all it's the cosmology, that fuzzy logic that forms the underlying meta-mechanic of the game universe, that's really important here. Just take a world setting, drop it into a sphere, and keep in mind that all spheres are adrift in that infinite expanse of the Phlogiston and woila!
You can even retain the idea of Phlogiston, it predates TSR by several centuries, and is just the fantasy equivalent of Hyperspace. (Remember Babylon 5? Whenever you saw a ship "jump" into Hyperspace what did you see. . . that's right a prismatic aetherial. . . something. IE: Phlogiston! ;) ) Of course you don't really need to, unless you want to create a universe with a cosmological feel that is pre-Copernicun.
Then again this would also entail the laborious task of writing a rules system from scratch, creating and populating a entire universe with (hopefully) distinct races, finding artists capable of creating nifty ship designs, and otherwise re-inventing the wheel. . . oy!
:DStill it's possible to do.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
I think we've come to the conclusion that it is unlikely that Spelljammer will be licensed. However, Spelljammer can exist in 3e.
I've said a thousand times that I think Spelljammer is both a setting and a concept, and I would argue that it lies moreso on the concept side of things.
We already have prior Spelljammer materials, so the setting stuff remains the same. As Kester has mentioned, we can add in any world we want to Spelljammer. Likewise, we can also take any world we want out of Spelljammer.
As for rules, there are enough out there to go on. If you have the Spider Moon game, you have some basics. I use it mainly for prestige classes and some feats. Beyond the Moons and Shattered Fractine both have a tremendous amount of 3e material on the web, plus more setting materials. Andy Collins' site has further SJ materials as well. Plus we have Aether and Flux, Airships (which I highly recommend), Spacebuckler (coming soon), the Aerial Adventure Guides, and tons of other fantasy space materials.
In my mind, Spelljammer is very much alive. There are tons of materials out there. Sure, it may require a little work on the part of the DM, but you could certainly put something together fairly easily.
Anyway, those are my two bits.
Originally posted by Kester Pelagius
Greetings Nightdruid,
That's one way of looking at it. It's all about the money.
But then again what, exactly, is the IP bits of Spelljammer? What will your money really be buying the exclusive rights to use?
Very true. That's one reason why WotC expecting someone to go through all those hoops for something with as little IP as Spelljammer is crazy; truly, the most valuable part of Spelljammer is the name itself. There's little else that cannot be gotten around fairly easily. SJ was more an idea and a trademarked logo than anything else.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
SJ was more an idea and a trademarked logo than anything else.
Indeed.
Too, something to think about, is that any property would not likely fully meet the expectations of the old-school Spelljammer fanbase. Just look at some of the not-so-nice things that have been said of the newest incarnation of Gamma World around some of the RPG related forums.
Then again can you imagine the mine of ideas that would be available if SJ had six editions available to choose from?
It would be nice to see something with that familiar logo. But until then fantasy space will probably remain the domain of the next generation of setting visionaries working within the SRD to bake new settings from old recipes. Settings like Spacebuckler and Aether & Flux and . . ?? I'm sure there's bound to be something else out there. After all there was a signifigant Space: 1889 fanbase as well.
IMO I think SJ is one of those settings that suffers from the cycle of hype. As new versions of cyberpunk and post-apocalypse and big name fantasy games are released on an almost semi-regular basis fantasy space games have a lot of catching up to do.
Originally posted by Kester Pelagius
Too, something to think about, is that any property would not likely fully meet the expectations of the old-school Spelljammer fanbase. Just look at some of the not-so-nice things that have been said of the newest incarnation of Gamma World around some of the RPG related forums.
I'm also on the Spelljammer-L mailing list, and I would agree based on my experiences there. Many Spelljammer fans on that list do not like 3rd edition, nor anything beyond the original materials.
Then again can you imagine the mine of ideas that would be available if SJ had six editions available to choose from?
Yikes. I know I had considered picking up the Alternity version of Gamma World, but now there's a new d20 version. I'm not sure if I'll pick it up or not.
It would be nice to see something with that familiar logo. But until then fantasy space will probably remain the domain of the next generation of setting visionaries working within the SRD to bake new settings from old recipes. Settings like Spacebuckler and Aether & Flux and . . ?? I'm sure there's bound to be something else out there. After all there was a signifigant Space: 1889 fanbase as well.
Agreed. I'd like to see SJ for 3e as well, but the likelihood is nil. I get a kick out of picking up SJ-like materials and incorporating that into the bigger whole.
IMO I think SJ is one of those settings that suffers from the cycle of hype. As new versions of cyberpunk and post-apocalypse and big name fantasy games are released on an almost semi-regular basis fantasy space games have a lot of catching up to do.
Fantasy space is a niche genre, and it's hard to have that when people expect tech with space, and have settings like Dragonstar that incorporate tech and magic.
Ah, well. I have tons of good materials to use, so I'm happy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
thats one of the things that i liked about SJ..
the parts i have and read didnt try to make it sci-fi like with high tech weapons and such
they made it different and interesting by introducing new weapons and magic but kept it in the swords and sorcery domain
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I'm also on the Spelljammer-L mailing list, and I would agree based on my experiences there. Many Spelljammer fans on that list do not like 3rd edition, nor anything beyond the original materials.
Chalk that up to nostalgia about the underlying setting concept. Even when I ran my game it was hard to use the rules as presented because my players uncovered too many inconsistancies and gaffs. . . like:
"If our ship has a gravity plane, but it only extends to our warp bubble kinda thing, how can we hit another ship with a catapult. Don't catapults use gravity?"
"Hey, wait a minute, if we're going to be traveling for days and days in Voidspace how are we getting air to breathe?"
"What do you mean casting stinking cloud fouled the ship's atmosphere? What do we do now, can't I counter it with a spell? What do you mean by the time I research something like wall of fog we'd all be undead zombies?"
"If our ship is out of air why can't we just deactivate the helm and let the phlogiston preserve us till a rescue ship can come along and find us or something?"
And my favorite: The many ways my Players use to come up with to try to avoid paying air taxes when in dock. Like the time they made planetfall and, fearing the planet might tax them because they were in a Hammership, decided the best course of action would be swimming to shore. . .
:DOriginally posted by Dragonhelm
Yikes. I know I had considered picking up the Alternity version of Gamma World, but now there's a new d20 version. I'm not sure if I'll pick it up or not.
From what I've read on the various forums, the official ones included, the game has great flavor/story text but suffers from poor editing and a need for errata. The official site actually has a goodly bit of information up. If you haven't visited the site already here it is: http://www.swordsorcery.com/gammaworld/
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Agreed. I'd like to see SJ for 3e as well, but the likelihood is nil. I get a kick out of picking up SJ-like materials and incorporating that into the bigger whole.
No, what Spelljammer needs is it's own system. First a Spelljammer core game needs to be released then, IMHO, they should release a version adapted for use with the D20/OGL system. Alas I doubt that any other RPG system is going to get much play while companies treat games as little more than franchise properties fit only to sqeeze licensing fees out of.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Fantasy space is a niche genre, and it's hard to have that when people expect tech with space, and have settings like Dragonstar that incorporate tech and magic.
Too true. Sadly one of the problems is that a lot of people don't understand what the setting is, namely OLD science. Science adapts and evolves. Spelljammer used a lot of concepts borrowed wholesale from cosmology and science that are no longer considered part of the modern paradigm. Which is why the setting had such a great fantastical pseudo-medieval yet classical-ancient feel to it.
If that makes any sense?
Originally posted by Kester Pelagius
Chalk that up to nostalgia about the underlying setting concept. Even when I ran my game it was hard to use the rules as presented because my players uncovered too many inconsistancies and gaffs. . . like:
Sound more like your players came in with a Star Trek mindset (talk about something that really butchers science!); it is kinda hard not to think in terms of that, but here's some answers to your "gaffs".
* I wouldn't assume SJ catapults operate percisely as our modern-day catapults do; man from ancient times had all kinds of clever, yet simple, ways of solving problems. Navigation, for example, can be done with only a few simple tools, to a degree. So their catapults operate somewhat like ours, but no quite (maybe they're geared to use a flatter trajectory?).
* I suppose they didn't read the section on air bubbles...kinda an important part of the game
;)* You can counter fouled air with a spell, but you have to have a proper spell. Just part of preperation.
* The problem with letting the phlogiston preserve you is that if you stay in there too long (it can be centuries or even millenia), you can turn into an undead creature called a Survivor (not to be confused with the people that don't bathe on CBS...;)
* Avoiding air tax? What, they couldn't afford 2-5 gp? Good grief! ;) Most air taxes were pretty cheap, even 1 sp per foot of keel isn't horribly expensive.
Too true. Sadly one of the problems is that a lot of people don't understand what the setting is, namely OLD science. Science adapts and evolves. Spelljammer used a lot of concepts borrowed wholesale from cosmology and science that are no longer considered part of the modern paradigm. Which is why the setting had such a great fantastical pseudo-medieval yet classical-ancient feel to it.
If that makes any sense?
Makes perfect sense to me, but then again I never make any sense ;)
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Sound more like your players came in with a Star Trek mindset (talk about something that really butchers science!); it is kinda hard not to think in terms of that, but here's some answers to your "gaffs".
* I wouldn't assume SJ catapults operate percisely as our modern-day catapults do; man from ancient times had all kinds of clever, yet simple, ways of solving problems. Navigation, for example, can be done with only a few simple tools, to a degree. So their catapults operate somewhat like ours, but no quite (maybe they're geared to use a flatter trajectory?).
Ah, if memory serves, my players noted that no disctinction was made between groundling vessels and vessels native to Wild Space, in regards to how catapults functioned. The question was oen of being curious how a catapult could possibly work in space since any projectile would go into freefall the second it left a ships gravity bubble, therefore it couldn't possibly hit another vessel as catapults relied on gravity.
Gave me headaches, they did. Of course this was largely in arguement as to why their ship didn't take damage, if memory serves.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
* I suppose they didn't read the section on air bubbles...kinda an important part of the game
Actually, the big gripe/question, was how on earth ships were supposed to be able to travel anywhere in the Phlo since no method of replenishing air was provided to the ship. (IOW: Where's the life support equipment?) They didn't like the idea of magical items/spells doing this, and frankly neither did I. It's too inelegant, not to mention there were too many questions about how magic worked in the Phlo. Brought the game to a snail pace on more than one occassion.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
* The problem with letting the phlogiston preserve you is that if you stay in there too long (it can be centuries or even millenia), you can turn into an undead creature called a Survivor (not to be confused with the people that don't bathe on CBS...;)
You obviously have never met players like my old group. Great folks, very imaginative even, but a bit odd at times. ;) For instance: They had a character dying, no healing magic available, though they did have a spell that would preserve said character if they could ever find the counter spell. My recollection of that campaign is that, when it ended, that character was still being carried around in a bag of holding (forget what they did, turned him to stone or something) waiting the party to find the counter-spell.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
* Avoiding air tax? What, they couldn't afford 2-5 gp? Good grief! ;) Most air taxes were pretty cheap, even 1 sp per foot of keel isn't horribly expensive.
I honestly don't remember why.
I just remember they thought air tax unfair in the extreme. Then again they would also turn tail and run from an vessel that had black sails, flew any flag with a dragon emblazoned on it, and took almost an morbid glee in assaulting, and slaughtering, the crews of wayward craft operated by hapless kobolds.
Take the Angel ship and be rid of their vessel that caused them so much trouble? No. Take Kobold prisoners? Sure, why not. They make great deck hands, apparently.
Originally posted by Kester Pelagius
Ah, if memory serves, my players noted that no disctinction was made between groundling vessels and vessels native to Wild Space, in regards to how catapults functioned.
I do remember something about SJ catapults performing much more poorly in an atmosphere, but that was in a Dungeon adventure IIRC. Likely, it was something not touched on due to space (er, room in the book ;) ) constraints.
Actually, the big gripe/question, was how on earth ships were supposed to be able to travel anywhere in the Phlo since no method of replenishing air was provided to the ship. (IOW: Where's the life support equipment?) They didn't like the idea of magical items/spells doing this, and frankly neither did I. It's too inelegant, not to mention there were too many questions about how magic worked in the Phlo. Brought the game to a snail pace on more than one occassion.
Huh, never had much problems with the flow. Here's how I've started looking at it:
Inner-sphere travel is generally "coastal" traffic; you're rarely too far away from a planet (except in those mammothly huge spheres). I've actually considered reducing the size of most spheres so that most planets aren't *that* far from each other.
Phlogiston travel is not unlike crossing the ocean; its possible, but risky, dangerous, and very rarely done. So just like ocean-traffic before the 1700's, most ships wouldn't be able to do it
And honestly, magic kinda makes phlo travel *too* easy, IMO
I just remember they thought air tax unfair in the extreme. Then again they would also turn tail and run from an vessel that had black sails, flew any flag with a dragon emblazoned on it, and took almost an morbid glee in assaulting, and slaughtering, the crews of wayward craft operated by hapless kobolds.
Take the Angel ship and be rid of their vessel that caused them so much trouble? No. Take Kobold prisoners? Sure, why not. They make great deck hands, apparently.
LOL, sounds like my group...gave them all kinds of adventure hooks, but they decided instead it'd be more profitable to go off killing pirates and such.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Inner-sphere travel is generally "coastal" traffic; you're rarely too far away from a planet (except in those mammothly huge spheres). I've actually considered reducing the size of most spheres so that most planets aren't *that* far from each other.
Phlogiston travel is not unlike crossing the ocean; its possible, but risky, dangerous, and very rarely done. So just like ocean-traffic before the 1700's, most ships wouldn't be able to do it
Sounds about right.
Yet, my wonderful group of adventuresome gamers seemed to shrug that off. All they wanted to do was sail the Phlo, explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and. . .
Yeah, too much Star Trek. ;)
Funny thing is they learned one thing quick: Dipping into other ships atmosphere plains could provide a temporary fix to their air problems.
Sure, the other ship was likely to get mad, but they justified this by saying: "But how else can we hail them? After all they're aliens from another sphere, why would they understand our semaphore? So, see, we HAVE to come into their atmosphere envelope, just to say Hi!"
Of course I fixed that. They learned quickly that most vessels flying the farther flung regions of the flow where air is at a premium tend to, shall we say, carry beings other than air breathers? In fact they seldom need to breath at all, being undead! Gotta love those undead pirates ;)
Originally posted by Kester Pelagius
Yeah, too much Star Trek. ;)
Funny thing is they learned one thing quick: Dipping into other ships atmosphere plains could provide a temporary fix to their air problems.
That's easy enough to fix...one encounter with deadly-quality air will nix that right there ;)
Ya, my PCs spent a lot of time in the flow, never really sticking to one place long eough to do anything meaningful. I now realize I should have made the flow deadly as heck; sic flow fiends and the like on them every day....let their healing magic dwindle down to nothing, being worn down hour by hour....make them dread going into the flow; no, make it a trip of absolute horror for them :D
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Ya, my PCs spent a lot of time in the flow, never really sticking to one place long eough to do anything meaningful. I now realize I should have made the flow deadly as heck; sic flow fiends and the like on them every day....let their healing magic dwindle down to nothing, being worn down hour by hour....make them dread going into the flow; no, make it a trip of absolute horror for them :D
I tried that. Threw all sorts of nasties at them. About the only thing they blinked at were Umber Hulks and Neogi. Ah, Neogi! They mostly came about 180 degress and set off at full speed away from them. ;)
Funny thing is such encounters made them want to play Spelljammer all the more! (What do you mean you want to sleep? It's the weekend, c'mon, just a few more minutes!
)[nostalgic ramble]
About the only thing I couldn't get them to do (besides go home) was change ships. They managed to acquire a rickety, held together with a handful of HP and chewing gum, Dragonship. (They actually changed flags to that vessel from a battle damaged Hammership. . . which had more HP!!???) Spent every last gold and silver piece they had to get it repaired, because they liked how it looked so much. Even ended up having to haul cargo to pay off a bit of the balance.
Surprised me to see how the group came together, actually getting into the setting and arguing amongst themselves *gasp* not about rules but about not getting a bad rep. (As opposed to sucker punching priests when they decide they want to keep a holy relic for themselves.) Thus they became haulers of miscellaney.
What started as just a quickie one-nighter evolved into a full blown campaign. Best darned boxed set I ever got, bar none! Not even Stormbringer got that much use, and I used that with three or four seperate groups over the years.
[/nostalgic ramble]
*sigh*
To be a teen again.
Hmm. On second thought maybe not so much. . . ;) :D
Anyone hear anything, official or otherwise, about the potential use of Spelljammer material in future publications?
Odd. They all have the same date stamp, otherwise I'd delete this one.
Speaking of strange occurances, isn't it odd how we'd all like to see something new published for Spelljammer, yet feel we can't produce anything for the setting ourselves due to copyright/IP constraints?
Sure, it's just a game, and we could probably recreate a reasonable facismile. . . but why? Is this, perhaps, evidence that the strangehold of IP/copyright is just that. . . a deathgrip stiffling the potential of what could be something great? Will it even matter in a hundred years? Probably not. The interest is in the here and now, with those living, is it not?
Originally posted by Kester Pelagius
To be a teen again.
Hmm. On second thought maybe not so much. . . ;) :D
LOL! Actually, that sounds much like what happened in the PBEM game I'm in; a handful of the players have decided to "go merchant", which resulted in many long, boring conversations about buying shares and the like; I wanted to run through the lot of them with me scimitar (damn that NG alignment...should have been NE, then I could get by with it!)
Originally posted by Kester Pelagius
Yet another dupe post.
Odd. They all have the same date stamp, otherwise I'd delete this one.
Speaking of strange occurances, isn't it odd how we'd all like to see something new published for Spelljammer, yet feel we can't produce anything for the setting ourselves due to copyright/IP constraints?
Sure, it's just a game, and we could probably recreate a reasonable facismile. . . but why? Is this, perhaps, evidence that the strangehold of IP/copyright is just that. . . a deathgrip stiffling the potential of what could be something great? Will it even matter in a hundred years? Probably not. The interest is in the here and now, with those living, is it not?
Depends on what you want to do with it. If you simply want to create a sphere and post it on a website, or otherwise add your own stuff to SJ, there won't be a problem (Technically, it's an IP violation, but nobody really cares). If you want to publish, then you'll run into problems. Ya, it sucks that SJ is unsupported right now, but copyright laws are meant to protect one's work; I'd be burned too if someone took a setting I published and sold it without compensation to me, using my name to sell it and the like. Not a whole lot different than someone making counterfit levis jeans, labeling them as levis, and selling them without payment to levis. Worst, poor quality counterfits can hurt the reputation of levis, costing them more money in future sales.
Ah well, enough of me on the soapbox
Originally posted by Kester Pelagius
Is this, perhaps, evidence that the strangehold of IP/copyright is just that. . . a deathgrip stiffling the potential of what could be something great? Will it even matter in a hundred years? Probably not. The interest is in the here and now, with those living, is it not?
http://www.ozyandmillie.net/2003/om20031128.html
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Depends on what you want to do with it. If you simply want to create a sphere and post it on a website, or otherwise add your own stuff to SJ, there won't be a problem (Technically, it's an IP violation, but nobody really cares). If you want to publish, then you'll run into problems. Ya, it sucks that SJ is unsupported right now, but copyright laws are meant to protect one's work; I'd be burned too if someone took a setting I published and sold it without compensation to me, using my name to sell it and the like. Not a whole lot different than someone making counterfit levis jeans, labeling them as levis, and selling them without payment to levis. Worst, poor quality counterfits can hurt the reputation of levis, costing them more money in future sales.
Ah, but if you take those same jeans and put a different label on them. . . They're still jeans. The Logo (or lack thereof) doesn't make them any more or less jeans. Sure, some Brands are percieved to be better than others, and often for good reason. But the point I was trying to make was here we are, all of us wanting something for Spelljammer, yet in this instance fear of IP/Copyright seems to be a major obstacle for most.
Now I am not saying that folks should go out and buy cheap denim and start producing jeans with Levi logos, but that isn't to say that you can't produce jeans with your own label on them. If you follow what I am saying here.
Sure, many will say Spelljammer isn't the same without Krynn, and the Realms, and Greyhawk . . . but then again those are red herrings at best, albatrosses at worst. So what is Spelljammer? Is it the sum of it's races- Neogi, Illithid, Giff, Imperial Elves- or is it a neat idea wrapped in a generic meta-setting?
Every Space Opera game has it's own unique races. But the laws of physics don't change. You can't copyright cosmology, unless your name is Euclid or Ptolemy and you can prove that you never died in the first place. ;)
Originally posted by Wyvern76
http://www.ozyandmillie.net/2003/om20031128.html
Nice comic. Not really relevant as it is dealing with piracy of extant material and I my comment was about creating new material for use with an extant property, but nice all the same. And a new fun link for me.
Thanks for sharing.
1)Whats in a name?
2)What are you willing to pay for that name?
Many of you have said that its the Spelljammer name that is up for grabs as there is much content out on the web and other resources that could be incorporated into a SJ setting but its the name that would be a draw to the masses. How much is a name worth? And keep in mind that this is a samll niche group out of a niche group( the gaming population) of possible consumers for any SJ product.
Originally posted by IPLAYDND35
1)Whats in a name?
2)What are you willing to pay for that name?
Excellent point. You'll note similar efforts by 3rd party companies such as Airships by Bastion Press and the upcoming Spacebuckler.
Jim Butler of Bastion Press is reputedly a big SJ fan, yet rather than deal with a license, he had the foresight to put out Airships (which is similar, yet different). I would highly recommend Airships for any SJ fan.
I'd have all important areas unique to Spelljammer listed(The Rock of Bral, The Spelljammer), a map of known space, and brief details on the major worlds therein(Like Krynn, Oerth and Toril).
I'd also list every ship from the old AD&D Spelljammer product line, as well as some of the more interesting monsters(Clockwork Horrors, Radiant Dragons etc).
I'd include Campaign specific Prestige Classes, nations, and political entitys(The Elven Imperial Armada, the Humanoid Remnant, the Illithid, Neogi and Beholder Nations, The Pirates of Gith etc).
All this content, all in one book, without the need for additional suppliments(Unless the book does very well).
My hope that the Spelljammer see a nice thick book that covers all the inportant stuff... by the way the number of critters for spelljammer if one includes them all is over 150+ (I figure the more lackluster critters would not see print in such a book).
Think about it, Spelljammer, as a stand-alone product, would be a great add-on to any 3rd edition campaign(Tell me there isn't a DM out there who hasn't thought of taking his or her players into space?)
Yes, it would be a thick book, but its worth it isn't it Danastes?
All spelljammer ships not used for ground bombarbment use *BALLISTAS*.
ballista come in two types: javelin firers, and large object firers, ergo "Ballista" and "catapult".
That's based on historical types by the way. To fire, say rocks, spheres, barrels of Alchemists Fire etc, you need a larger weapon and with a different firing mechanism to take the different shaped projectiles, maybe a "bucket" style shuttle on the ballista into which such are put, ala a jettison. Indeed, you could say they ARE used as jettisons, merely using a load of small sharpnel.
Solves problems since now you have a relatively FLAT trajectory weapon, two types (javelin and object firer), and the "catapult" version can be used as a jetison with the right load.
Regarding "jettisons"...all you need is a grapeshot-style projectile. Either literally as per grapheshot (say glass spheres held in a light cage of wood), or rocks held in hardned clay or mud, on impact it bursts causing an area of effect. And ballsitae fire things with a HELL of a force and velocity by the way, Roman ballista were not matched in accuracy and effectiveness until the late 1600s by cannons. The light versiosn were also exceddingly accurate for their time and size and can hit indivduals.
Wtih untold centuries of development, alien races and magic, every aspect of warfare in the D&D universe woudl probably be a dern sight more advanced than on Earth. Consider say, how the Romans took seige weapons and infantry amrour/weapons in severla centuries...hwo the Japanese developed ritualistic martial arts absed on sword play, the now mostly forgotten heights of swordplay that were in existance in Europe until the 1700s etc.
Given not merely centuries but MILLENIA of development, materisls unlike any we have ever seen, alien thought patterns, species with different outlooks, magic...Combat, Spelljamming etc should NOT be that weird or impossible in that "setting".
Spelljammer rocks! ;)
Newtons law of motion should come into play.
Now, unless you say the shot you fired was magical or the catty was magical, then you could say that magical forces were allowing it to go where you wanted it to land.
Bur yes, SPELLJAMMER does indeed rock!!!
I know most would cringe at the idea but I would be willing to pay the $30 each for them, just out of my love for the setting. I know this could stop some of the younger buyers from experiencing it, but I remember as a teen we would pool our money for new books.
If it done right and not half-
then $50 wouldnt be out of the question for one book.I think who puts out a SJCS would determine how it is sold. If its WotC, then you'll see a single $40-$50 book (probably closer to $40, but they're inching towards $50 books) and maybe a few followups several months down the road. If 3rd party, likely you'll see a $40 book (from WotC) followed by another $30-$40 book (where the company makes its money, following the DL model).
But that's just looking at the only models we have, DL & FR, for how such a deal would work.