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Overgod of Oerth?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Nov 01, 2003 12:51:47 Does the Greyhawk cosmology have an overgod? The Realms has Ao, Dragonlance has the Highgod, and a few 3rd party settings have overgods , as well (such as the Creator from Kingdoms of Kalamar); so, does Oerth have an overgod?

--enquiring minds want to know NB
#2
zombiegleemax
Nov 01, 2003 13:58:52 Iuz sure wishes he was, but I believe the answer to your question is, No.

however, they do have a heirarchy of sorts ofcourse ie Greater, Lesser, Demi, etc etc, but they are all sworn not to intervene with the flow of life on Oerth other than granting their priest's spell and similiar acts.

Save the fallen whose name I can't recall that broke this "oath" and granted the Bakluni the Rain of Colorless Fire to strike down their enemies with, after the Invoked Devastation and now his status is less than demi.

Abyss
#3
eric_anondson
Nov 01, 2003 16:49:31 There really isn't an over-god in the same sense of Ao on Toril, or other WotC/TSR properties.

However, before the great migrations across the Flanaess there were cultural pantheons. Most of the deities of those pantheons are no longer exclusive to human cultures due to all the intermixing of human peoples in the Flanaess.

For instance, Lendor is the father of the Suel pantheon. Procan is the father of the Oeridian wind/weather deities.

IMO, each pre-migration human cultural group did have an over-god, similar to how demi-human pantheons are arranged with Yondalla, Garl Glittergold, Moradin, Corellan(sp?), and Gruumsh. As humans intermixed in the Flanaess their cultural pantheons lost coherence as distinct pantheons amongst their Flanaess worshippers, except among the deities of human cultures isolated from others (like the Olman).

But an overgod that rules over all deities AND all pantheons of Oerik? Don't think so. Even if one wants to make an exception for Tharizdun or the Elder Elemental God.

Eric Anondson
#4
zombiegleemax
Nov 01, 2003 21:43:35 I always like the notion of Tharizdun as overgod. I like the idea of an overgod that creates universes just to destroy them. Kind of like how I spend hours building a metropolis in SimCity just to level it with tornados and Godzilla attacks. Scary stuff, theologically-speaking, if you're a SimCitizen.
#5
Argon
Nov 01, 2003 22:28:50 Well in my campaign that would be me. LOL. But no their isn't one in the same sense as Ao or the HighGod of Krynn. Lendor for the Suel, Procan for the Oeridian, IMC Istus for the Baklunish, & Rao for the Flan. As you can see most of the Flan religion was incorporated with Oeridian culture. Therefore it is not unheard of to See Rao placed as the head of the Oeridian religion in some parts of the Flannaes, namely Veluna.
#6
kilamar
Nov 01, 2003 23:33:47 I can only agree with Argon.
The DM is the one only overgod of your campaign.
And if he is smart, he does not do something stupid that he has to conjur up an overlord from thin air to correct the mess he did with his setting.

Kilamar
#7
zombiegleemax
Nov 02, 2003 3:13:09 Of course there's an overgod. I'll give you his initials.

E.G.G.

;)
#8
Greyson
Nov 02, 2003 9:50:33 Check out this topic at Canonfire! Their is a mirror topic with a couple of pages of replies in the thread. It's very interesting and even begins to touch on other campaign settings a bit.

Check it out HERE
#9
chatdemon
Nov 02, 2003 18:33:07 As Eric A. was hinting at, I prefer the idea of a group of "overgods", one from each cultural/racial pantheon.

Baklunish : Istus (Goddess of Fate)
Flannae : Beory (Goddes of the Oerth)
Oeridian : Stern Alia (Mother of the Gods) or Pholtus (God of the Sun and Law)
Suel : Lendor (God of Time)

The various demihuman and humanoid pantheon leaders would fit in as well.

In my campaign myth, these elder gods (called the Primal Powers by sages interested in theology) would meet now and then in a sort of celestial council to make agreements, hash out debates, etc. As time wore on, most of these gods withdrew from the day to day oversight of Oerth, leaving it to the lesser gods of their pantheon and their mortal followers to determine the course of things.

Some of the old divine laws are still honored, such as the agreement to restrict direct action on Oerth to mortal (though not always prime material planar) servants. There are exceptions to these "laws" though, such as the conflicts of Iuz and St Cuthbert, and other old laws are outright ignored.

Mortals are the movers and shakers in my game, the gods they worship are just inspiration and direction for them. In the Forgotten Realms, it seems to me that Ao was just introduced as a plot device to steer the "war of the gods" plot, and IMO, Greyhawk needs no such grand god in the machine nonsense. Holy wars good, god wars bad.

And, oh yeah, Tharizdun was definately one of the Primal Powers. The others didn't agree with his "everything you build, I will destroy" mentality, so they tricked him into eternal sleep. His sleep is troubled with hideous nightmares so powerful that they have manifested into their own demiplane (Ravenloft :D ) and mortals are sometimes drawn into them (The mists). The legends say that if Tharizdun ever awakens, he will devour existence itself, so this is something the other primal powers spend a lot of time trying to prevent, that's why they leave the administration of Oerth to their lackeys, both mortal and divine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Nov 01, 2003 12:51:47	Does the Greyhawk cosmology have an overgod? The Realms has Ao, Dragonlance has the Highgod, and a few 3rd party settings have overgods , as well (such as the Creator from Kingdoms of Kalamar); so, does Oerth have an overgod? --enquiring minds want to know NB
#2 zombiegleemax Nov 01, 2003 13:58:52	Iuz sure wishes he was, but I believe the answer to your question is, No. however, they do have a heirarchy of sorts ofcourse ie Greater, Lesser, Demi, etc etc, but they are all sworn not to intervene with the flow of life on Oerth other than granting their priest's spell and similiar acts. Save the fallen whose name I can't recall that broke this "oath" and granted the Bakluni the Rain of Colorless Fire to strike down their enemies with, after the Invoked Devastation and now his status is less than demi. Abyss
#3 eric_anondson Nov 01, 2003 16:49:31	There really isn't an over-god in the same sense of Ao on Toril, or other WotC/TSR properties. However, before the great migrations across the Flanaess there were cultural pantheons. Most of the deities of those pantheons are no longer exclusive to human cultures due to all the intermixing of human peoples in the Flanaess. For instance, Lendor is the father of the Suel pantheon. Procan is the father of the Oeridian wind/weather deities. IMO, each pre-migration human cultural group did have an over-god, similar to how demi-human pantheons are arranged with Yondalla, Garl Glittergold, Moradin, Corellan(sp?), and Gruumsh. As humans intermixed in the Flanaess their cultural pantheons lost coherence as distinct pantheons amongst their Flanaess worshippers, except among the deities of human cultures isolated from others (like the Olman). But an overgod that rules over all deities AND all pantheons of Oerik? Don't think so. Even if one wants to make an exception for Tharizdun or the Elder Elemental God. Eric Anondson
#4 zombiegleemax Nov 01, 2003 21:43:35	I always like the notion of Tharizdun as overgod. I like the idea of an overgod that creates universes just to destroy them. Kind of like how I spend hours building a metropolis in SimCity just to level it with tornados and Godzilla attacks. Scary stuff, theologically-speaking, if you're a SimCitizen.
#5 Argon Nov 01, 2003 22:28:50	Well in my campaign that would be me. LOL. But no their isn't one in the same sense as Ao or the HighGod of Krynn. Lendor for the Suel, Procan for the Oeridian, IMC Istus for the Baklunish, & Rao for the Flan. As you can see most of the Flan religion was incorporated with Oeridian culture. Therefore it is not unheard of to See Rao placed as the head of the Oeridian religion in some parts of the Flannaes, namely Veluna.
#6 kilamar Nov 01, 2003 23:33:47	I can only agree with Argon. The DM is the one only overgod of your campaign. And if he is smart, he does not do something stupid that he has to conjur up an overlord from thin air to correct the mess he did with his setting. Kilamar
#7 zombiegleemax Nov 02, 2003 3:13:09	Of course there's an overgod. I'll give you his initials. E.G.G. ;)
#8 Greyson Nov 02, 2003 9:50:33	Check out this topic at Canonfire! Their is a mirror topic with a couple of pages of replies in the thread. It's very interesting and even begins to touch on other campaign settings a bit. Check it out HERE
#9 chatdemon Nov 02, 2003 18:33:07	As Eric A. was hinting at, I prefer the idea of a group of "overgods", one from each cultural/racial pantheon. Baklunish : Istus (Goddess of Fate) Flannae : Beory (Goddes of the Oerth) Oeridian : Stern Alia (Mother of the Gods) or Pholtus (God of the Sun and Law) Suel : Lendor (God of Time) The various demihuman and humanoid pantheon leaders would fit in as well. In my campaign myth, these elder gods (called the Primal Powers by sages interested in theology) would meet now and then in a sort of celestial council to make agreements, hash out debates, etc. As time wore on, most of these gods withdrew from the day to day oversight of Oerth, leaving it to the lesser gods of their pantheon and their mortal followers to determine the course of things. Some of the old divine laws are still honored, such as the agreement to restrict direct action on Oerth to mortal (though not always prime material planar) servants. There are exceptions to these "laws" though, such as the conflicts of Iuz and St Cuthbert, and other old laws are outright ignored. Mortals are the movers and shakers in my game, the gods they worship are just inspiration and direction for them. In the Forgotten Realms, it seems to me that Ao was just introduced as a plot device to steer the "war of the gods" plot, and IMO, Greyhawk needs no such grand god in the machine nonsense. Holy wars good, god wars bad. And, oh yeah, Tharizdun was definately one of the Primal Powers. The others didn't agree with his "everything you build, I will destroy" mentality, so they tricked him into eternal sleep. His sleep is troubled with hideous nightmares so powerful that they have manifested into their own demiplane (Ravenloft :D ) and mortals are sometimes drawn into them (The mists). The legends say that if Tharizdun ever awakens, he will devour existence itself, so this is something the other primal powers spend a lot of time trying to prevent, that's why they leave the administration of Oerth to their lackeys, both mortal and divine.