Careful spoilers for players...
The story itself is just great. I mean the struggle of power between the Queen and Sodo as well as the return of Bollenbach. The way Bloody Jack operates is also very nice.
But the way the adventure is played, the layout, too restrictive. The PCs are basically just witnesses to the event. No matter how they try, they can't affect the story until the very end despite the warning in the beginning that the adventure isn't restrictive.
Still, the story is very very good. Good ideas everywhere, numerous NPCs detailed enough so that they aren't just "pawns" to help the PCs or get killed.
The ending, very apocalyptic for Paridon if they fail. I understand why Sodo is so desperate.
Any other critics?
SPOILERS!!
I liked it, the idea of a Golem Bloody Jack is great. I personally liked the apocalyptic end! Simply Dreadful!
..but third Ed stats for my favorite non-Darklord evil NPC in 3rd edition made my day
"A scalpel a day.." :D
While it might seem like the players are being railroaded, it's a fairly realistic portrayal of a crime scene investigation. When chasing down a killer, it's hard to be pro-active.
I'm reminded of the movie Se7en, where Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman's characters are literally waiting to see where their mysterious killer strikes next.
It's all a matter of putting together the clues from the past, in the hopes that you have them assembled before too much more goes awry. Very bleak, and very Ravenloft.
Overall, I'd easily give Shadows of the Knife 4.5 stars. It didn't completely blow me away, but it was as close as it comes.
I'll definitely be inserting this into my campaign, though. Gives me another reason to keep my players in Paridon for a while!
Oh crap.
And they're not TOTALLY restrcited- Hell, I can already see ONE of my PCs taking an even MORE poassive role in the investigation- Reading the newsbills until the last day. (Those, by the way, make an AWESOME handout if ya print 'em double-sided on as old a piece of junk as you can find. Heck, they make an awesome handout anyway...)
Oh yeah... And it's nice to see Sodo terrified of something. :D
Sodo disapointed me statswise but he's immortal so who cares ;)
And the idea of using his healing for eternal torture, now that's evil!!!!
It'll need some modification for my purposes as I use the alternate Pardion/Timor featured in the netbook Quoth the Raven (#2 I believe). And a variation on that too...
Originally posted by The_Jester
I've only skimmed but I like what I see so far. Nice to see more attention to Pardion, plus getting 3.5 stats for not one but two DarkLords untouched by SotDR kicks arse!
Too bad it's not official. On the bright side it'll take a lot of time to see official products featuring the cluster (unless we have a very nice surprise)
Originally posted by Charney
Too bad it's not official.
Worry less about labels and go read Van Richten's Arsenal again.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Worry less about labels and go read Van Richten's Arsenal again.
Indeed, I had a post-it note on that particurlar note by the twins since the sisters gave my players their final draft before publishing. That was before the time of adventure.
"Oooh! I know! Let's give Sodo a big metal robot and the Hive Queen the ability to turn into a clown!"
greydawn
Originally posted by Greydawn
There was a great deal added to it, but in the end I think that was its roots.
Nope.
Originally posted by Greydawn
I liked it alot, but it didn't seem to be very original in my mind. All in all it reminded me of the Jack the Ripper adventure include in Masque of the Red Death (which some may remember). There was a great deal added to it, but in the end I think that was its roots.
Since "Hour of the Knife," which details the rampage prior to "Shadow" by one cycle, predates "Red Jack" by quite a bit, I'd be a little hesitant to make this claim.
That being said, I have a few questions on Shadows of the Knife, Hour of the Knife, and Zherisia/Paridon in general.
First, from SotK, Paridon apparently has its own calendar (dates on the Newsbills). We know that the current Barovian Calendar for the 14th Bloody Jack is 755 BC; the Newsbill shows 901. That last (13th set) of killings was in 742 (888 Paridonian), so it does work out year-for-year. Not even thinking about the 'Fang appearing in Paridon before it was created in Valachan' thing, there are a couple of date-things that bother me. 755 BC = 901 PC means that Zherisia has existed for 204 years as a domain, and Sodo has had the knife for 182 years, yet he claims to the PC's it's only been a century and a half (but then he lied about a number of things).
Next, at the time of HotK, the domain had been in Ravenloft for 191 years (also 2 years after the Grand Conjunction 'shrank' the domain to just the city, but 2 years before it joined with Timor). At the Bloodsworth party, all the rooms were decorated by theme (desert, mountain, ocean, jungle, savannah, etc) and had both live & stuffed animals, and indiginous plants as decorations. Where did these come from, and who would have known about these land types after 191 years locked in the mists? Traveling Illusionist magic lantern shows? For that matter, all of Lord Bloodsworth's animal forms were based on seeing those critters when?
Third, looking at the scales on the Black Box & Red Box maps for Zherisia, the domain was originally about 4 miles by 4 miles (16 square miles roughly). After the Grand Conjunction, the size remained the same! It is just all city now! Looking at the City Map of Paridon in HotK, it's roughly 1 square mile, 1/16 of the entire city/domain.
Speaking of the maps, what's the name of the river that flows south to north, bisecting the realm? The Black Box and the two modules call it the Rhastik River, Domains of Dread & the Campaign Setting book call it the Nodnal River.
Next, now that the city takes up the whole domain, it's implied that most raw goods are imported (Sodo really creates a stir by closing the borders, as no trade can take place). Look at all the things mentioned that are imported: coal, wool, silk, metals, alcohol, paper, brick/stone, tea, grain & foodstuffs, even Invidian peaches! Is all of this coming in by The Shrouded Way? That's a lot of supply trains coming in to supply a city of 11 thousand currently. The Shrouded Way (2 way, moderate reliability) connects NW Darkon with S. Paridon. That much interaction does not seem to be evidenced by the Weathermay twins correspondance with Agatha Clairmont in Van Richten's Arsenal.
Speaking of raw materials, how did the price of the Newsbill go down in 13 years? 5 pence in 888 PC, 2 pence red. in 901 PC. Has paper become much more available? Also at the Newsbill, it was claimed that they had back issues for the last three killings (HotK), and that ties in well with the 'Established date' of 843 PC, but in SotK, they only have the last killing's stories on hand. Did they lose their archives to fire/vandalism, or did they just move it out/ toss it away?
I always found it interesting in HotK that there was an orc & ogre in the coachhouse trophy room, and that the pregenerated characters could speak demi-human, and even silver dragon (with the domain being overwhelmingly 'human')!
One last question, is the Ed Chaswick in SotK the same character as Ed Chadswick in HotK? Why the namechange? I love seeing continuity in the adventures, it was good to see Jim Wortle made Inspector after 13 years (even if he did a bad job of it). I would have loved a reference to the Butcher Street Boarding House, or to Van Richten's visit in 730 BC dealing with Timothy Strand, the Lamenting Rake ancient dead, but you can't put everything in every adventure. (Yes, I know I can do what I want in my games; the first thing I would do is roll back the mists from the city far enough to allow coal mines).
Sorry to be a pest, but I tend to focus on details, so I'm just wondering about these things. Don't take all this to be an attack on the work; as I said I loved it overall; it's far more than I could come up with myself, and I just wish I could appeal to the powers-that-currently-be to give us more full adventures, and not just open plot hooks.
Originally posted by Catman Jim
Next, at the time of HotK, the domain had been in Ravenloft for 191 years (also 2 years after the Grand Conjunction 'shrank' the domain to just the city, but 2 years before it joined with Timor). At the Bloodsworth party, all the rooms were decorated by theme (desert, mountain, ocean, jungle, savannah, etc) and had both live & stuffed animals, and indiginous plants as decorations. Where did these come from, and who would have known about these land types after 191 years locked in the mists?
I presume they predate the domain's creation.
Originally posted by Catman Jim
Next, now that the city takes up the whole domain, it's implied that most raw goods are imported (Sodo really creates a stir by closing the borders, as no trade can take place). Look at all the things mentioned that are imported: coal, wool, silk, metals, alcohol, paper, brick/stone, tea, grain & foodstuffs, even Invidian peaches! Is all of this coming in by The Shrouded Way?
You missed the reference to the coal mines beneath the city, for one.
Originally posted by Catman Jim
The Shrouded Way (2 way, moderate reliability) connects NW Darkon with S. Paridon. That much interaction does not seem to be evidenced by the Weathermay twins correspondance with Agatha Clairmont in Van Richten's Arsenal.
I consider that debatable, and that's not the only way to reach Paridon.
Originally posted by Catman Jim
Speaking of raw materials, how did the price of the Newsbill go down in 13 years? 5 pence in 888 PC, 2 pence red. in 901 PC. Has paper become much more available?
Would you pay half your daily (subsistance) wages for a double-sided newsbill?
Originally posted by Catman Jim
I always found it interesting in HotK that there was an orc & ogre in the coachhouse trophy room, and that the pregenerated characters could speak demi-human, and even silver dragon (with the domain being overwhelmingly 'human')!
The first time the "silver dragon" language issue came up, back around 1998, I suggested that rather than complaining, people should use their imaginations to consider a rationale for why that might be the case. I suggested, in this instance, that the silver dragon language might be considered an ancient scholarly language in Paridon. I took no small amount of abuse for making this ludicrous suggestion.
Now go read the wizard entry in the Player's Handbook.
The Hat of disquise and the fang of the Nosfuratu would still grant him shapeshifting abilities but the ritual would trap sodo in a single from. I am wondering if this is something Sodo might consider or if a very powerful party manages to bring him there would it work...
Originally posted by Northen_Spur
I'd be curious about the ritual that traps Doplegangers into a single shape. Would it work on Sodo forcing him into one shape or is the darklord immune to the ritual?
I'd suggest no. Mortal magic can't overwhelm the Dark Powers, after all, and Sodo's inability to hold a shape is part of his curse as a darklord.
Matthew L. Martin
The end of "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" comes to mind.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
I presume they predate the domain's creation.
You missed the reference to the coal mines beneath the city, for one.
I consider that debatable, and that's not the only way to reach Paridon.
Would you pay half your daily (subsistance) wages for a double-sided newsbill?
The first time the "silver dragon" language issue came up, back around 1998, I suggested that rather than complaining, people should use their imaginations to consider a rationale for why that might be the case. I suggested, in this instance, that the silver dragon language might be considered an ancient scholarly language in Paridon. I took no small amount of abuse for making this ludicrous suggestion.
Now go read the wizard entry in the Player's Handbook.
Thanks, John, that is helpful while waiting for The Cluster Gazetteer to come out! If I may further question / respond...
Someone has done an awesome job of keeping those beasts, plants, and geographic knowledge alive in the 200 years since Zherisia became isolated! Of course, there's always summonings, stasis, illusions, the Paridonian Geographic Society, etc. ;)
I did see the reference, but it stated that the coalmines were replaced by the domain of Timor 11 years ago. If the mines (the deep ones anyway) are now inhabited by marikith, that might explain the cost of coal (6 cp per bucket).
Agreed, there must be multiple, regular ways in & out of Paridon, the merchants were all a-twitter when Sodo closed the border, stopping regular trade (personally, I've always pictured coal trains arriving from Vechor or Nosos, but that's my madness).
Again insightful, if 1 sp is the standard wage, that sheds light on Matchgirl Jenny requesting that amount per day for translating/guide services. Mrs. Haversham's lodgings at 6 sp per week per bed, while described as relatively cheap, would seem to be out of range for Jenny and her crippled father, and 6 cp for a bucket of coal would be an extravagance for them. I would be interested to see prices for the street vendors & the tavern prices (again in the future Gaz).
As Draconic is the language that the twins & Agatha setted on, no that's not that unlikely. It's already evidenced that the education system in Paridon has kept knowledge of geography outside their own domain alive, why not ancient languages as well (hey, we still teach Latin, after all). It seemed odd that the thief/investigator would have chosen Silver Dragon specifically, it seems more likely indeed that a mage would have selected it.
Abuse? I don't think I had joined the boards then, I don't recall it. You didn't write it, that was Nesmith & Smedman, why would anymore take issue with your suggestion? Must have been a different time & different place...
Anyway, thanks for the quick response, John!
Originally posted by Catman Jim
Someone has done an awesome job of keeping those beasts, plants, and geographic knowledge alive in the 200 years since Zherisia became isolated!
Yes, I believe they call it "books."
Or do you consider it bizarre and impossible that you and I know what a "dodo" is?
As for the price issues, honestly, try cracking open a 3rd edition core book once in a while.
Originally posted by Catman Jim
Abuse? I don't think I had joined the boards then, I don't recall it.
This predated the boards.
Originally posted by Catman Jim
Must have been a different time & different place...
Not really.
Matthew L. Martin
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Or do you consider it bizarre and impossible that you and I know what a "dodo" is?
No, what I considered bizarre & impossible is that there was a living camel in a starving Paridon 9 generations after it was isolated in the mists & limited to a 16 square mile area.
I'm not so sure about Paridonian books anyway, as the name of the river that runs through it changes depending on what you read. ;)
Once again, I don't believe you wrote Hour of the Knife, so I don't understand why you feel that by questioning the material in it in any way abuses you. It was also my impression that authors welcomed feedback & discussions on their work; I can see that a lot of work went into Shadows of the Knife, all for free & the love of the game. I must be wrong in that, as while it is obvious that you do check this thread often, so far you have only responded to the comments folks made that seemed an attack on your work or person, or that you could reply with a "go read a book". You have not responded to numerous comments of praise & appreciation for this work. It's unhealthy not to accept some praise & credit. Focussing only on negative will make you unbalanced in life and an unhappy person.
Originally posted by Catman Jim
It was also my impression that authors welcomed feedback & discussions on their work
I welcome considered feedback & discussion on my work. Feedback that indicates that the commentor has actually understood the work.
Sadly, for every one of those, there's been scores of critiques most efficiently and accurately answered with "Your problem was addressed on pg. X." That witless nitpicking, and its preponderance, is just depressing. What's even more fun is when someone makes an invalid comment, and then others parrot it for years, adding not one iota of perceivable thought on their own.
For me, the first sign of trouble came right up front, when people reviewing Children of the Night: The Created complained, one after another, that they would have liked to have seen more exploration of Gestalt's "split personality."
...
Gestalt doesn't have a split personality. His entry never says he has a split personality. He has a gestalt personality. His entry describes his gestalt personality. He's even named "Gestalt." I wasn't even subtle about it.
The general level of insightful criticism has never improved, save for a handful of people. (Grey Arcanist's take on the Gazetteers' narrator probably takes the prize for most insightful. We used to sit around in the Kargatane clubhouse beaming about his insight and fretting that he'd predict all our twists.)
And for the record, ill-considered praise doesn't do anyone any good either.
Originally posted by Charney
But the way the adventure is played, the layout, too restrictive. The PCs are basically just witnesses to the event. No matter how they try, they can't affect the story until the very end despite the warning in the beginning that the adventure isn't restrictive.
The warning in the beginning is just that, a warning. It says that the adventure is restrictive. It then tells DM's that they need to make this restriction less chafing, less visible. I don't see anything in the warning that suggests the adventure isn't restrictive.
Originally posted by Awakenings
The warning in the beginning is just that, a warning. It says that the adventure is restrictive. It then tells DM's that they need to make this restriction less chafing, less visible. I don't see anything in the warning that suggests the adventure isn't restrictive.
I must have misread. I'll reread it as soon as I can.
Matters arising:
I know it's restrictive. That's why I said, try to be as flexible as possible and make it seem less restrictive. And realistically, it's a murder mystery, and they are quite restrictive by their very nature. Deal with it.
I'm glad people liked the Newsbills. They were bastards to write, and even worse to format.
Yes, Chaswick and Chadswick are the same person. He just dropped the d because he thought it was old fashioned.
And the Boarding House isn't mentioned because it didn't exist when I wrote the adventure.
However, I was thinking about this earlier....using the Butcher Street Boarding House as the PCs base of operations (until they find out the nature of the place), while they investigate the Bloody Jack murders. Do you have any recommendations on how to go about doing something like this?
(Anyone else feel free to answer....any ideas are welcome!)
Indeed... I read too fast. For my defense I had an hour to read it all!!!!About the claims that the adventure leads by the nose, I have to say that all event based adventures as written lead by the nose to a degree, its up to the dm to handle the situation. Every event based adventure needs changing by the dm, because a written work is of a limited number of pages and can't cover every possible situation. For example the last two times I ran hour of the knife I made many modifications.
1. In hour of the knife the investigation part of the adventure ends with Sodo pointing the pc's in the direction of the killer. In other words any investigating the pcs did was useless in the end. I changed it, by not having them come into contact with Sodo until after they figured out who the killer was by clues that I inserted into the adventure.
2. The fact that hour of the knife follows the pattern of many old ravenloft adventures (adam's wrath, from the shadows, the created, etc) by killing the pc's and resurrecting them in such a way that they have to work for somebody to stay alive. I didn't kill my pc's off and instead had Sodo summon the pc's in a way similar to shadow of the knife.
3. The fact that in the end the pc's interference does more harm then good (ie. the ritual causes 11 murders when it would normally cause 6) Instead the pc's fight with Sodo and in the end escape with the knife.
And these are just the major adjustments that I remember several years later.
As for shadow of the knife I plan on changing three things:
1. I plan on Eliminating the first meeting with Sodo, since it serves no real purpose other than having Sodo reveal himself to the pc's. And there is the off chance that my players fall for Sodo's story which would mean they would skip over 50% of the adventure, and the adventure is too good to allow that to happen.
2. I plan for dopplegangers to recover the dagger instead of Marikilith after the fifth murder. I will have the pc's track the dagger to the bloodsworth estate and come into conflict with the dopplegangers and Sodo. At that point the marikilith come bubbling out of the secret sewer passage in the basement and a three way battle would erupt. SInce I still have the map of the bloodsworth estate I have to make use of it as a combat situation. Plus my players will get a kick out of exploring the crumbling estate they remember from the first adventure.
3. The duex ex machina with the mist portal at the end (indentical to hour of the knife). I didn't like that end the first time around and I am definately not going to use it a second time, but I haven't figured out a way for them to escape the queen and her horde yet (since they are so overmatched in the end).
So in the end event based adventures require more dm thought than site based ones. as for other points I thought the newsbills were great and the contiunity winks were cool (though my pc's will only remember the bloodsworth estate, wortle was far too minor in hotk, and I didn't use edward or the timed scarabs). The only thing I did not like was the mist portal end but that can be easily changed. All in all I actually think it might be better than the original.