Let's be realistic here: the known world of Athas is remarkably tiny. What we've been shown so far is outrageously small, in comparison to, say, Faerun or the Flanaess. The very fact that the former Champions all clustered together in one teenytiny area suggests that there may have not been much area to settle.
This means one of two things:
1) Most of Athas is a dead, rotted carcass, and the Tyr Region, Jagged Cliffs Region, and some small sector of the lowlands is the only livable land around.
or:
2) Athas is so small, that the former Champions didn't really have much to choose from, so they chose the western land of the plateau to dwell on.
In your campaigns, how big is Athas? In mine, Athas is about the size of Mercury, a little ittybitty orb orbitting a giant red star. (Don't worry about gravity or atmosphere issues; it's magic!)
--how big is Athas to you? NB
It is possible that Athas is smaller than other worlds, considering the lack of water you have probably a lot more land to discover than anywhere else.
Btw, I suggest to double all distances on the map, that way travelling through the desert gets a lot more interesting.
Kilamar
--it really adds to the atmosphere, making Athas puny in size NB
A more logical setting would of been Ur Draxa beeing in the center stage (where it is now) with the SK's dominion to be skatered around the Silt sea. For then the slave levy may have been easier and the land rescources more abondant. In this setting Ur Draxa would be the Capital ruled by Borys the dragon (and his templars) The example could go on for ever..... but for "gaming practicality" The wold would be so spread-out that it would be to much of a head-bash. The main role play of this alternate Athas would be how to survive the more then one month long treck from one city to an other. Although I did say earlier that the resource may be more abondant it wouldn't be enough to "feed" an athasian population the size of FR's.( add to this slavery,dragon's levy, lack of water, poverty, sickness etc etc)
No, SK had good reason not to skater
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
My Mars approach on size has something to do with, if I remember correctly, Dark Sun was based on some Sci-Fi novels about life on Mars or something. I could be wrong on it, however.
Barsoom. Edgar Rice Burroghs. I butchered his last name.
If you add in the other maps - the Crimson Savannah and such - you get an area about the size of Colorado and New Mexico.
That's a lot of land, but far from huge. You could drop it into the middle of the Australian outback or the Gobi desert and no one would notice. There's a LOT of unknown territory out there...
Personally I'm undecided. I could easily see Athas in the middle of the outback of some isolated land, with large populations and even oceans in the rest of the world. I've toyed with the idea of having the Empire of the Petal Throne/Tekumel in the other hemisphere of the planet...
I could also see the Tablelands as the only area with any sort of civilization at all, the rest of the planet being a huge silt sea. I must admit, I like this idea...
Or I could take the old "Runequest" tactic and see Athas as not even a planet, just an endless land like those of mythology (i.e., flat earth), perhaps in the middle of an infinite plain of silt desert.
Maybe Athas is one of Planescape's forgotten layers of the Abyss...?
--keep flatearths away from me, please
NBDon't forget - the Silt Sea is a Sea, not an Ocean... There could be much larger bodies of Silt, or massive tracts of salt flats on the world where virtually nothing lives (to represent locations that were once oceans). And if I recall, there's actually a rather large body of water further in the Tohr-Kreen empire.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
And if I recall, there's actually a rather large body of water further in the Tohr-Kreen empire.
Source, please.
--this sounds unlikely NB
If anyone has any info on this - or other "big picture" views of Athas geography - I'd love to know about it...?
I have a couple ideas surrounding the unexplainable SK "cluster", which may be of use to a few players...
1) the Sorceror Kings remained in the tablelands because it was the most hospitable place. As they went further and further away from the region during the cleansing wars, they met fewer intelligent races (as all races were born from the pristine tower) and thus didn't feel the desire to go any further. There may be much more land just over the horizon, as well as refugees from the cleansing wars that managed to sneak past the champions of rajaat into the unexplored wilderness. Wemics, trolls, faeries... may all be just over the next expanse of mountains.
Also, what if the pristine tower isn't entirely unique, and somewhere else on athas is another just like it, with people living just like the tablelanders did during the blue or green ages, with ecologies to match?
2) The power of the SK's and their ability to grant spells may be tied directly to the pristine tower... and thus they cannot move too far from it or lose their power. This proved to be a complication during the cleansing wars, that perhaps they overcame, or perhaps they didn't.... in any event, it would make sense that they would crowd around a small area of land and suck it dry, even when there were more plentiful resources further away.
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Source, please.
--this sounds unlikely NB
I don't remember. might have been Thri-Kreen of Athas, or maybe the Wanderer's Chronicle. There was something tho about there being a body of water on the other side of the Crimson Savannah, or so I thought. Then again, it may have been an idea someone posted on either this board or the previous one.
i think that the main reason that all the SM settled in the same region was simply to form (relative) efficient trade lines. what lurks beyond the known world is open to debates, of course.
I always liked the concept that the published area is about the only habitable area left on the planet. Although I do seem to recall reading something somewhere about there possibly being other dragons somewhere on the planet. Just confusing myself now, really...
Easy.
The Last Sea.
As in "Mind Lords of the Last Sea."
Mentioned in the post-Pentad boxed set-
And personally, I see Athas as friggin' HUGE. Kinda barren in most places, but HUGE.
Originally posted by Kamelion
Although I do seem to recall reading something somewhere about there possibly being other dragons somewhere on the planet.
It's hinted at in the introduction to "Dragon Kings," IIRC...
Originally posted by Cole Deschain
Big body of water?
Easy.
The Last Sea.
As in "Mind Lords of the Last Sea."
Ah, of course.
For some reason I thought we were talking about something the size of an ocean...
Originally posted by Cole Deschain
Big body of water?
Easy.
The Last Sea.
As in "Mind Lords of the Last Sea."
Mentioned in the post-Pentad boxed set
I don't see Marnita as a sea, really....just a salt-water lake.
I see Athas as friggin' HUGE. Kinda barren in most places, but HUGE.
I'd prefer it if Athas was an ittybitty world...fits my vision of it; this tiny, forlorn, dying world, with no gods to save it....
--but then that's my vision of things NB
Originally posted by SandChicken
i see athas as a pretty big world, that have a lot of unknown regions beyond tyr (don't forget that until 95' even the jagged cliff was unknown).
i think that the main reason that all the SM settled in the same region was simply to form (relative) efficient trade lines. what lurks beyond the known world is open to debates, of course.
Exacly my point
........................ To my thinking the size of Athas has more to do with the creators of the DS setting but more likely for what I shall call "Gaming Practicality". I mean imagine a world as vast as lets say the FR world with SK's dominions skatered throughout the land with the DS terrain "template"........It would be to vast for efficient trade............ see previous post aboveOriginally posted by Phoenix_Down
I don't really see Athas having "continents"... because in order to have those, you need large bodies of water (or silt, in the case of athas) which I just don't see them having.
You dont see them but they're there. You need to imagine seeing Athas from a "satelite" point of view where Athas as we know it is probably surrounded by the Crimson Savanha (probably with other "plateaus" with different elevation but not as high as the Tableland region and beyon) According to the jagged Cliffs sourcebook the tableland "continent" has an elevation of more then 15000feet from the C.S. Also remember the Blue age thus between the B.A. and the G.A. there were surely an ocean or more surounding the world as we know it.-although probably not for long (historicly speaking)-
Originally posted by Cole Deschain
Big body of water?
Easy.
The Last Sea.
As in "Mind Lords of the Last Sea."
Mentioned in the post-Pentad boxed set-
And personally, I see Athas as friggin' HUGE. Kinda barren in most places, but HUGE.
That wasn't what I was referring to, and it's hardly on the other side of the Crimson Savannah. I was thinking it was something that hasn't been mapped.
It mentions a "huge body of water" on the other side of the Kreen Empire - on the other side of the Crimson Savannah.
"The Last Sea" isn't on the other side of the Crimson Savannah - this must be something else...
--ah, the miracle of the lowlands being totally defiler-free
NBSo thanks for the info!
"Athas, or at least the explored portion, consists of about one million square miles of desert. In its center, covering an area of about 120,000 square miles is a vast, dust-filled basin that I call the Sea of Silt."
A little research through Google, tells us that the explored portion of Athas is roughly the same size as all of the continental United States east of the border that runs betwen North Dakota and Minnesota, down to the border between Texas and Louisiana. In addition, the Sea of Silt would then be approximately the same size as New Mexico.
Turning to the map provided with the Original Box Set, it appears to cover an area that is 253 miles by 387 miles or 97,911 square miles. This is far short of the number expressed by the Wanderer.
Utilizing the two maps provided with the Revised Box Set, we see that each is about 495 miles by 823 miles or 407,385 square miles. Both regions taken together, appear to cover 814,770 square miles.
Now just to be as complete as possible, we need to account for the map from Valley of Dust & Fire which includes parts of the Sea of Silt not covered on the other maps. This map does overlap at a slightly different scale. I estimate the new material at 50% (you'll have to eyeball it yourself to see if you agree). This means the additional Sea of Silt area adds an extra 101,612 square miles (half of the 382 miles by 532 miles area). *Notice that this is off from the above estimate given by the Wanderer, where half of his area would be about 60,000 square miles!*
I believe that there is a small portion of the map provided with Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs that doesn't overlap any other map, but it's sufficiently small that we can ignore it.
So, at best estimates we have 814,770 square miles from the two large maps and an added 101,612 square miles for a grand total of ...
916,382 square miles!
It seems as if the Wanderer isn't too bad at estimating the size of the explored area of Athas. Hope this has been helpful for those curious about these things. If you ever need to know something about the land, ask a bard.
Stay shady,
Thrasnister, Master Bard, Thespian, Storyteller, etc.
Originally posted by carp1359
Turning to the map provided with the Original Box Set, it appears to cover an area that is 253 miles by 387 miles or 97,911 square miles. This is far short of the number expressed by the Wanderer.
Interesting. Wyoming is 97,818 miles - almost exactly the same ares. That puts it in perspective...
So, at best estimates we have 814,770 square miles from the two large maps and an added 101,612 square miles for a grand total of ...
916,382 square miles!
About the size of Algeria.
Huge, but not exactly a whole continent by any means...
Originally posted by Cessna182
I found the reference - it's in a side-bar in "Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs."
It mentions a "huge body of water" on the other side of the Kreen Empire - on the other side of the Crimson Savannah.
"The Last Sea" isn't on the other side of the Crimson Savannah - this must be something else...
Thanks. That's the reference. If I had more time (6 12-hour days & 1 7-hour day a week doesn't leave me much free time lately).
If someone remembers the site I am referring to maybe they can help with the global view here.
I would say though that really you are left only to your imagination as there is no official material concerning places outside of the greater Tyr/Savanna/Silt regions. Of course many official suppliments expanded on the basic Tyr region but in the end its all up to the DM to create the world. Personally I would have no problem if an adventuring party of significant enough level wanted to venture into unknown areas. Creating new places and people is something that I enjoy doing.
I find, though, that I have to be careful when I present a new town/outpost or the like because anything that I leave incomplete (buildings, NPC's, etc) usually end up being found by the PC's and I have to do some creation on the fly which usually leads to inconsistencies.
Aside from that, the map I originally referred to I think might have been created by Brax, but I am not certain.
If someone remembers the site I am referring to maybe they can help with the global view here.
I would say though that really you are left only to your imagination as there is no official material concerning places outside of the greater Tyr/Savanna/Silt regions. Of course many official suppliments expanded on the basic Tyr region but in the end its all up to the DM to create the world. Personally I would have no problem if an adventuring party of significant enough level wanted to venture into unknown areas. Creating new places and people is something that I enjoy doing.
I find, though, that I have to be careful when I present a new town/outpost or the like because anything that I leave incomplete (buildings, NPC's, etc) usually end up being found by the PC's and I have to do some creation on the fly which usually leads to inconsistencies.
Aside from that, the map I originally referred to I think might have been created by Brax, but I am not certain.
The extended 2ed one covers I think around 3.5 times more. Think about Wester Europe.
About the size of Athas itself, if the gravity is the same as in the Earth then the size must be about the same (+/- some hundred km. diameter).
Also I'd think that, magical means notwithstanding, one would need a huge body of water somewhere to actually sustain Earth-like life in the planet.
Last but not least, the SK concentration in the wastelands need not be about its great climate or whatever but about its hospitality to the SK themselves. Also not being a desert doesn't a nice place automatically make. As an extreme case, think about the possibility of Athas being just Ocean + Kreen Empiare + the Tablelands. Where would the SK's live?
Sucky...
The DS books where actually about to open up into that new area with the last box set expansion. I dought there is any races that are simular other then the Tohr-kreen and possibly even Ruhl-thaun that would be known about. I dont dought there is more races down there... Possibly even some that where suposidly whiped out during the cleansing wars.
That would add a weird twist to things. Oh and since I believe "and I could be wrong" the dragon kings did not take the war that far... it might be even a little greener then the rest of the world. I do know that the base of the jagged cliffs are like a rainforest. Thoughts?
Avatar
Originally posted by AvatarDSO
The reason I think the KNOWN world of Athas "The table lands" is so small is becosue that is the only place that most of the races can be found hence why the dragon kings stayed int hat area. Beyond the jagged cliffs and the rest of the planet is mostly unknown as it I believed is controlled by the Tohr-Kreen nation.
I'd say there is a vast amount of area controlled by the Tohr-Kreen (and other insectoid or possibly arachnid-like races), as well as some areas populated by races like the Ssuran (sp?) and Pterran (or other reptillian races, except for lizardfolk - which are accounted for as being mostly dead). Plus the Deadlands is, in my opinion, quite large and filled with undead.
The DS books where actually about to open up into that new area with the last box set expansion. I dought there is any races that are simular other then the Tohr-kreen and possibly even Ruhl-thaun that would be known about. I dont dought there is more races down there... Possibly even some that where suposidly whiped out during the cleansing wars.
Like the afore-mentioned lizardfolk which are revealed to be still found in the Last Sea.
That would add a weird twist to things. Oh and since I believe "and I could be wrong" the dragon kings did not take the war that far... it might be even a little greener then the rest of the world. I do know that the base of the jagged cliffs are like a rainforest. Thoughts?
I think the champions did expand their wars across the world - Rajaat wasn't into the "half-assed" approach to his wars - he wanted halflings to survive, not elves or other races. I think the Tablelands were the starting point and the ending point for the wars, and that the crimson savannah is actually the basin for a once proud and impressive ocean through the green age, whose water level kept lowering to the point it is at now.
Also I'd think that, magical means notwithstanding, one would need a huge body of water somewhere to actually sustain Earth-like life in the planet
Realistically, this is very true. And polar ice caps wouldn't cut it either. A vast underground water supply may fit the bill, but the more I think of that scenario, the more I think of Dune. Its not that you need a single huge water supply, but simply enough water that has an average constant. There could be dozens and dozens of medium sized lakes scattered about the globe and that may be sufficient.
An in depth reason for the need for water is that a planet with even a moderatly normal ecology (which Athas has) needs what is called a 'cold trap' in the upper atmosphere. Water vapor is the prime constituent of the cold trap. The lightest of elements (helium and hyrdogen) can excape the cold trap, bled off into space, but it prevents any elements heavier than that from getting through (as a molecule gets colder, it falls back to the surface and heavier elements fall lower than light ones). If a planet lacks a cold trap, you bleed off even heavier gasses like nitrogen and oxygen, both of which are obviously essential to a normal ecology. This happen to mars when its cold trap began to dissappear (and will eventually happen to Earth under normal circumstances).
Basically, if Athas continues to lose water due to the environmental problems, it will also lose its cold trap and then there goes all the nitrogen that living things need to breathe.
For a start, there is an obvious disagreement between the first and second boxed sets. The first boxed definitely describes the Sea of Silt as a land-bound basin, completely surrounded by the Ringing Mountains (hence the name). By the second boxed set the Sea of Silt had no obvious extent and the Ringing Mountains were simply a smallish range. In all the second map covered an area not dissimilar to the eastern coast of the USA from New York to Miami.
I think that it is very unlikely that the Sea of Silt represents the beginning of some sort of 'silt ocean' that spands the world, as shown in Brax's map. The reason for this is simple: the Crimson Savannah lies far beneath the sea level of the Sea of Silt. If the body of silt was planet wide then you would expect the Crimson Savannah to lie beneath its surface. This is evidently not the case.
The world of Athas, I would have though, was larger than our own Earth. There are a couple of reasons to think this. Firstly, it has a greater mass of satellites than the earth - i.e. two large moons. Satellite mass, the limited evidence suggests, is related to the mass of the planet. Secondly, Athas seems to have substantially more volcanic activity than the Earth. Again there is a correlation between volcanic activity and size.
I am sure someone will point out Brax's theory that Athas actually orbited one of it's moons, Guthay I think, which was itself a gas giant. In which case, this would reconcile the facts with a much smaller Athas. However, this would also imply a great number of astronomic observations that are simply not made anywhere in the material.
The Jagged Cliffs are an interesting geographic feature that suggest something of the wider geography. The only comparable feature of our own geography are the great drops that mark the boundaries where continental plates drop off into oceanic plates. That is the Jagged Cliffs represent the old boundary between the Tyr'agi continent and the depth of the ocean. The ocean has long since receded but the ocean bed still remains significantly moister and more fertile than the continental shelf.
Personally, I doubt that the Cleansing Wars were extended far beyond the Tyr'agi continent for the simple reason that it was not necessary to do so. Rajaat conducted his sorcerous studies at the base of the Jagged Cliffs which was supposedly the very edge of the known world. Migration from the Pristine Tower would not have been forced very wide as the New Races had a huge expanse of land to colonise before they even reached unmapped areas. The time frame from the Rebirth to the Cleansing Wars was not that great and the natural barriers of the cliffs to the west and sea to the east would have constrained migration. Rajaat would not have needed to go much beyond the map simply because there were no non-halflings so far away.
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
In the "omniverse" of d20 fantasy worlds, is Athas the tiniest?
Let's be realistic here: the known world of Athas is remarkably tiny. What we've been shown so far is outrageously small, in comparison to, say, Faerun or the Flanaess. The very fact that the former Champions all clustered together in one teenytiny area suggests that there may have not been much area to settle.
I just realized something.
Back in 2e - when Dark Sun was in print - TSR tried to start up a Lankhmar campaign setting.
There were seven published adventures and one main campaign guide that I know of, and all took place within a single city.
I'd have to say that's the smallest...
The time frame from the Rebirth to the Cleansing Wars was not that great and the natural barriers of the cliffs to the west and sea to the east would have constrained migration
You don't need a vast timeframe. Simply a reason for people to move. Then again, this would be implying that the Rebirth itself was localized to the Tyr region and that beyond this there is nothing but rhulisti and thri-kreen (hmmm . . . naah, need more variety). I had always assumed that the Rebirth was global in scale. The Pristine Tower has the power to change the sun itself (so we're told, see other threads for arguments). It would not be hard to imagine that kind of power affecting most every member of a globally dominant species.
Second, it doesn't take people very long to colonize areas even thousands of miles from their originating point. Look at earth's past and you'll see hundreds of examples, most colonization being done in less than 100 years if reletively close and less than 250 even if fairly far out
Also, the Clensing Wars lasted for 2,000 years! More than enough time for a Champion, even without the aid of armies, to wipe out the Rebirth races from the Known Region of Athas, if that is the only area they settled into. No, I think they scoured the entire globe. If you notice, the only races said to be wiped out were all races that are, on other standard worlds, fairly rare, except for goblins and orcs, but even they tend to comprise only a tiny percentage of a setting's total population.
The world of Athas, I would have though, was larger than our own Earth. There are a couple of reasons to think this. Firstly, it has a greater mass of satellites than the earth - i.e. two large moons. Satellite mass, the limited evidence suggests, is related to the mass of the planet. Secondly, Athas seems to have substantially more volcanic activity than the Earth. Again there is a correlation between volcanic activity and size.
Since Athas has less density due to poor metal content, along with the above points, I had always gone with the much larger than earth example for Athas.
About the size of Athas itself, if the gravity is the same as in the Earth then the size must be about the same (+/- some hundred km. diameter).
Gravity and its effects are reletive to the person who is accustomed to it. Its only when you move someone from their accustom environement that its effects are notices. A person born and raised on a high gravity world (assuming such is possible) may be considered a weakling there, but put that person in a low gravity planet and he is now superman.
Also, gravity is relative to the mass of an object and has no correlation to the object's size. You only have to think of a black hole to get a mental picture on this.
).Nero points out that the SKs are clustered. J-Nish hit the nail on the head, but lets extrapolate this a bit further.
It all centers around Rajaat being imprisoned. Simple as that. The SKs need to keep Rajaat in the Hollow forever. The SKs are imortal so they need to develope a method that will last as long as they. They need the levy of warm bodies supplied to Borys to keep the prison gates sealed, so they set up the cities, places where they don't have to hunt down people to send to the slaughter. The cities need to be relatively close together to ensure that each city survives the harsh climate since not one single city can sustain itself fully and completely without the others. They also need to be close to Ur-Draxa since the levy is yearly, otherwise, Borys is spending all year traversing the globe to bring back the collected levy only to repeat it again as soon as they're all acounted for (and that's likely to peeve the Big B off to no end and the SKs still rightfully fear Borys' power). The SKs tailored the cultures to remain stagnant on purpose, fencing in the cattle so to speak. The depndance on slavery cheapens the social value of life in general, making no one really care about the whereabouts of nearly 1,000 poeple every year. Reading and writing being restricted to the ruling class means that no one can effectively challenge the SKs levy since there's no physical documentation of these missing people and the enforced illiteracy means that no later generations will learn of such an event.
Everything the SKs did seemed to center around the imprisonment of Rajaat. Of course, there are the side chores of advancing through the stages of dragon metamorphosis (which also required large amounts of sacrifices), waging wars between eachother (or did they simply pluck up the troops on the fields far from home and send them off to Ur-Draxa; remember, the SKs control history and there's no evidence in recent observable history of any two cities going to war except for the Urikite attack on Tyr; Yamaruke may have simply wasted away into a ghost town for all we really know).
So, why didn't they settle somewhere beyond the Tyr region? Convenience. Simple as that.
So, why didn't they settle somewhere beyond the Tyr region? Convenience. Simple as that.
I also recall reading something (in the timeline, I think) that stated that the s-ks were somehow part of a geomantic web that helped keep Rajaat imprisoned. The death of a sorcerer-monarch was a dreadful event that threatened the integrity of Rajaat's wards beyond any loss of slave-sacrifices. When Hamanu killed Sielba, he had to pay Borys a tithe as compensation (which Borys then used to build Ur Draxa). There is also a note that states that once there were only 7 s-ks left, the required sacrifices stabilised at a steady 1000 from each monarch. So there could also be a geographical/geomantic reason for the s-ks selecting those cities. Just some idle thoughts... ;)
For one, Mercury isn't much larger than our moon: a 180 lbs person would weigh somewhere in the range of 75 pounds. Of course, it is a fantasy game, so you can take that or leave it.
That map? Took it into 3ds and made this
[Edited: Pic came up for a whopping 3 seconds then plunged into the dreaded red "x". I'll just include the link to the thing]
http://geocities.com/tticd/athas.html
Still working on the "big picture" and ninety percent of it is conjecture. Apparently, the Tyr region was actually the southern hemisphere and far south at that (practically tundra). As you travel north, those lava lakes grow more and more. I would guess that the equator is a mess.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Brax and I were working on world map of Athas shortly before my computer and life freaked out on me. I, too, scaled up Athas a bit (somehow, that day and a half trip from Tyr to Urik via crodlu just wasn't very intimidating); multiplying by four sounds about right. Athas as Mercury-sized? No.
For one, Mercury isn't much larger than our moon: a 180 lbs person would weigh somewhere in the range of 75 pounds. Of course, it is a fantasy game, so you can take that or leave it.
That map? Took it into 3ds and made this:
Still working on the "big picture" and ninety percent of it is conjecture. Apparently, the Tyr region was actually the southern hemisphere and far south at that (practically tundra). As you travel north, those lava lakes grow more and more. I would guess that the equator is a mess.
Is it just me or is the link/image doesn't work?
This remnant of the ocean then would be still percieved as a "large body of water" in the eyes of observers from a mostly desert world.
The ocean floor isn't as flat as we like to think of it as. There is still some hills and valleys, high and low regions. And lets not forget the oceanic trenches either.
The trench idea is what I think I'll run with a little in the brain pan. The land that the Crimson Savahna is on is one section of a large flatland region. At the 'center' of this region is a lake only a few miles wide (maybe 20 at its widest), but perhaps a thousand miles long. The land gets a little more marsh-like as one gets closer to the lake. The lake is all the water that remains of a once vast ocean, now settled into the lowest point on Athas: an oceanic trench. The lakebed is anywhere from 2-3 miles from the surface, which would make the lake itself rather cool and keep a nice bit of circulation going. But alas, its still the remains of an ocean that has shrunk, so the salt levels would be enormous. Nothing natural could survive living in it . . . so I guess I'll spend some time thinking of something unnatural to populate this lake with.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
The ocean floor isn't as flat as we like to think of it as. There is still some hills and valleys, high and low regions. And lets not forget the oceanic trenches either.
Oh, I totally agree with you on this. What I was doing was tying the Jagged Cliffs into the discussion by pointing to how on our world, there is a "continental shelf" (or something named like that) which surrounds the continents, and is a pretty sharp drop from them to the rest of the ocean. Of course there's mountains and hills under the water - after all, islands are little more than mountains that poke out of the water's surface.
The trench idea is what I think I'll run with a little in the brain pan. The land that the Crimson Savahna is on is one section of a large flatland region. At the 'center' of this region is a lake only a few miles wide (maybe 20 at its widest), but perhaps a thousand miles long. The land gets a little more marsh-like as one gets closer to the lake. The lake is all the water that remains of a once vast ocean, now settled into the lowest point on Athas: an oceanic trench. The lakebed is anywhere from 2-3 miles from the surface, which would make the lake itself rather cool and keep a nice bit of circulation going. But alas, its still the remains of an ocean that has shrunk, so the salt levels would be enormous. Nothing natural could survive living in it . . . so I guess I'll spend some time thinking of something unnatural to populate this lake with.
Well, there's the idea that the shrinking water had been gradual enough that the remaining ocean life could have adapted - after all, Athas is full of creatures that have adapted to the harsher climate.
Well, there's the idea that the shrinking water had been gradual enough that the remaining ocean life could have adapted - after all, Athas is full of creatures that have adapted to the harsher climate.
True, but I can only suspend disbelief so much.
(rambling thought proccess: please excercise caution) The salinity of the water would be a few hundred times that of the Great Salt Lake in Utah of even the Dead Sea. Boyancy itself would be the problem to contend with, not simply the salt levels. In such extreme salt water, things like to float very easily. So, in thinking of adaptation, swimming would be only possible by the largest and strongest of creatures and likely only for short durations. But if something could pull itself downward along the sides of the trench, they could easily overcome this issue. I'm thinking something with tentacles could easily accomplish this, using its tentacles to pull itself down into cavernous cities in the cliff sides. Of course, there would be the same type of rising boyancy in these underwater caves, so perhaps these beings build their cities on the cave ceilings. So . . . something with tentacles. Squids, octopus . . . illithids. Hmmm. Aquatic mind flayers. Oversizes tentacles allow them to navigate the cliff sides. Of course, there would be a few above ground towns where they would stock their thralls that cannot survive the sea. But they seem lonely so . . . I'll give them something to contend with: aboleth. There was an old dragon mag that expanded the aboleth a lot in some interesting directions (#131, Ecology of the Aboleth), multiple sub species that made the common aboleth look like a wussy slug. So . . . the illithids and aboleth make war upon eachother, using surface dwelling races as food and fodder, living in strange cities in a 3 mile trench of water that would kill a man. Sounds rather pleasant, like an Athasian vacation spot for those tired of dealing with dray armies and kreen invaders. Maybe I'll do a little writeup (once I nab me a good underwater sourcebook).
As for critters, silt horrors seem to have tentacles and are pretty similar to (rather large, rather aggressive) octupi.
You could plop the known area of Athas in the middle of the Australian outback or the Gobi desert or New Mexico/Colorado/Wyoming and have near-identical climate - on earth, a planet that's mostly covered by ocean.
It would be a beautiful irony if Athas was mostly covered with water, but salt-water like Earth - and the tablelands were in the middle of a continent that is surrounded by water that no one realizes is there...
Think about it: if you were an all-powerful dragon king, would you dig tiny shards of obsidian out of the side of an active volcano, or would you just transport some slaves and templars to the North (East, West, Whatever), dump them off, and say: "Mine. Now."
No, I think Athas is at least mostly desert and, if I had to guess, I'd say the rest of the world is probably worse off than the tablelands. There has to be some protected areas, but I don't think they'd be very large. There are mentions that Borys ravaged the world. Now this could just be an ego-centric view where the "world" is actually just the local region, but the creation of the dragons also fundamentally changed the star around which Athas orbits. That's not good.
On the upside, I think we all agree that there's a big body of water somewhere to the North.
1--- First, like some of you have already stated; water is a must for life on earth(Athas) to even survive( less prosper)
but as water is vital.... so is air...
2--- What forest we can see in all Athasian maps would never suffice to "purify" the air.(even Arakis, the dune desert planet is pure fiction;it could never exist) There has to be large forest (more likely; tropical ones) somewhere around the globe)
And for those who would think that the inner plane could magicaly sustain Athas with water and air, again this is false because it is not the inner planes that effect Athas but the opposit The situation on Athas is actualy effecting the inner planes.( I think I read this in Earth,air,fire and water source book)
Yes thats right the water plane is much, much smaler than during the Blue age and today the Paraelemental plane of Silt is gaining "territory" over the earth plane etc, etc.
To resume, there must be, although almost impossible to reach, at least a third of the globe still rich in fertile soil, trees, lakes, at least one remaining ocean etc... and for DMs that dont like the idea of a non-desert "continent," well just dont DM in it
but to say that there are none is impossible: logicaly Athas was not created, it was transformed in devastation and even the dragons(champions) had to realise that to destroy 100% of the land was to destroy :1--- What they thought would be their's(until they realise otherwise hence rebel vs Rajaat.
2--- Even if they were somehow immune to the "no more air/water to survive, they couldn't possibly save their "nations" from that same effect.
Another point has to deal with the sun and its transformation. That would almost certianly have rammifacations for the entire planet as one ecosystem.
That said however, I would definately buy into the idea that at the poles, some form of water exists in abundance. I would also find it hard to believe that a SK or Dragon would not have been tempted at least once or twice in 1 to 2 millenia of existance to teleport to another part of the planet to just go there for the hell of it. If they did do that, wouldn't they have defiled that part of the planet in casting the spells, etc?
There are pro's and con's to both theories!
Originally posted by Belyn Goldentree
But then the assumption is that everything that Rajaat and Boris did had no effect to an entire side (or 1/3, or even 1 continent) of the planet. For something so global and catastrophic to happen to one continent would surely have an affect of the rest of the planet as a whole. Now the point about the air and water is a good point. But the Crimson Savanah is full of plant life, is it not?
First Rajaat did nothing to the land. Of course indirectely he did so by teaching his champion how to defile and declare the C.wars. vs all other races. At least most damage were done by the his champions.
As for the Crimson Savannah, It is 98% 6 feet long grass, not trees.(but I'm not an expert here so I cant tell if grass could purify air as trees do. I doubt it)
I would also like to remind you that when Boris realised the real intentions of Rajaat and decided to stop its cleansing and began a rebelion, it surely ment that he/they hadden't wage war all around the globe(in every war there is a territory by territory win/lose aproch) and when they came back in the Tyr region, where Rajaat was waiting for them in his Pristine Tower, they left the "far lands" untouched.
An other theory would be that "IF" they did destroy all the present lands at the time before rebelling vs Rajaat they may still not be aware that the ice caps melted after the sun became what it is today(when Boris used the P.Tower to transform the Sk into what they are today.)
Following your sun theory I think that the ice caps in the poles are now oceans with continent (that's, to my knowledge where it would be most logical to situate the "new" fertile lands) and also explain why they are so hard to reach.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I think you could just write this up to the fact that this is a fantasy setting. The world could not be sustained in the same fashion that you can not cast a spell. If you're striving for ultimate realism, the ramifications of a planet with two large moons should disturb you more than a general lack of plant life.
I agree: of course it's fantasy that's what makes it fun but each world setting are considered "real" because they were ment to be created this way.
I'll try to explain what I ment by realism in an other way
A plane or planet is considered "real" what ever its traits are(physical,elemental, alignement,magic..) because it was ment to be that way in the first place.
But when you take a planet like Athas which was ment as a "Blue Age" earth like world( covered with water) and in within 14000 years it becomes a total desert,(because of foul magic) nothing would survive. This means that Athas neads water and air to sustain life on its soil because it was created so. To say this in an other way; if Athas would have been imagined from the start what it is now (and not what it has become historically) with very few forests and water we could have imagine the air came from somewhere else etc. but it is not the case. The creators of Arthas even confirmed that the inner planes cannot "help" Athas because it has a direct concequence of the world , not the other way around.
As for magic of Athas I find it quite unique and i would even say that it is part of the realism of Athas(magic comes from the land itself) As much as life-shaping was some sort on ritual technology, I see magic as an other form because it uses the same building block of life source.
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
First Rajaat did nothing to the land.
I direct you to the swamp at the base of the Jagged Cliffs. That little jewel of delight and wonder was brought to you by Rajaat.
Of course indirectely he did so by teaching his champion how to defile and declare the C.wars. vs all other races. At least most damage were done by the his champions.
Not to mention the invention of Arcane Magic all together.
As for the Crimson Savannah, It is 98% 6 feet long grass, not trees.(but I'm not an expert here so I cant tell if grass could purify air as trees do. I doubt it)
As it is a savannah, there would be the occasional tree, but mostly grassland - that's true.
I would also like to remind you that when Boris realised the real intentions of Rajaat and decided to stop its cleansing and began a rebelion, it surely ment that he/they hadden't wage war all around the globe(in every war there is a territory by territory win/lose aproch) and when they came back in the Tyr region, where Rajaat was waiting for them in his Pristine Tower, they left the "far lands" untouched.
An other theory would be that "IF" they did destroy all the present lands at the time before rebelling vs Rajaat they may still not be aware that the ice caps melted after the sun became what it is today(when Boris used the P.Tower to transform the Sk into what they are today.)
Actually, I also take the approach that many of the effects on the world (like the drier climate in general due to the decreasing of the water around the world) isn't from Rajaat - it's caused by the power of the pristine tower. Of course, his use of the tower accelerated the process and distorted it a bit, I'd say. I think that the Pristine Tower was the real death-knell of the world - even as it was the savior. I don't think that the Rhulisti really knew all the side-effects that the Tower would have on the world - they needed a solution fast to their situation at the time, and the Tower was what they used.
Following your sun theory I think that the ice caps in the poles are now oceans with continent (that's, to my knowledge where it would be most logical to situate the "new" fertile lands) and also explain why they are so hard to reach.
Or if the Pristine Tower was redesigning/terraforming the world (of a sort), and actually was destroying the water (leaving some, of course) as well as changing the ecology. Combined with Arcane magic's discovery, the Cleansing Wars, and other exciting events (like the imprisonment/release/re-imprisonment of Rajaat) it has left the world in pretty bad shape.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I direct you to the swamp at the base of the Jagged Cliffs. That little jewel of delight and wonder was brought to you by Rajaat.
Ya yoiu're right about the swamp although he transformed it not destroy it(life is still abondant in the misty border)
Not to mention the invention of Arcane Magic all together.
That's what I ment when I said Rajaat helped indirectly his champions destroy the lands.
Actually, I also take the approach that many of the effects on the world (like the drier climate in general due to the decreasing of the water around the world) isn't from Rajaat - it's caused by the power of the pristine tower. Of course, his use of the tower accelerated the process and distorted it a bit, I'd say. I think that the Pristine Tower was the real death-knell of the world - even as it was the savior.Or if the Pristine Tower was redesigning/terraforming the world (of a sort), and actually was destroying the water (leaving some, of course) as well as changing the ecology. .
Historically speaking the green age (the age after the creation of the P. Tower) lasted a very long time (never disturbed by the (your) PT chaos theory) until the Cleansing wars and the "rampage" of the champions and their defiling weapon. (evil magic) but I admit your theory has some sence when you say;I don't think that the Rhulisti really knew all the side-effects that the Tower would have on the world - they needed a solution fast to their situation at the time, and the Tower was what they used. But again it was never mentionned that the PT had an "ego" of its own its just a very powerfull artifact.
Combined with Arcane magic's discovery, the Cleansing Wars, and other exciting events (like the imprisonment/release/re-imprisonment of Rajaat) it has left the world in pretty bad shape.
To my knowledge, the only thing the brief escape/release of Rajaat has done to the world is the death of a few SKs and the creation of the curelean storm( of course in the far future, the storm could become a real threat if it doesn't stop aproching the Tyr region.) P.S. I dont remember if the great earthquake was related to rajaat's "escape" since the point of origin is at the other side of the world as we know it .(far into Kreen territory--if not farther--)
Personnaly I think a new age is aproching with the Curelean storm's expansion; At first chaos and death and then a new Blue age (or at least a Green age) And since the storm is Rajaat, the Rhul-thaun will be spared. :D
:D *sorry Tyrians*Recently, the Estuary of the Forked Tongue has risen almost an entire foot! Simultaneously, clerics of silt have been heard to proclaim that their patrons had won a major victory over elemental earth in the inner planes.
There is a connection between the two, obviously, but it goes both ways.
Originally posted by Belyn Goldentree
Aside from that, the map I originally referred to I think might have been created by Brax, but I am not certain.
Brax and someone else actually.
Can't remember the someone else, and can't remember the link, I'm sure I have it somewhere though.
Also, according to everything that has been presented offically, the map isn't that too far off, basically all they have to do is adjust the dead lands some and I think Ebe was off quite a bit too.
Can't remember the exact details, hope my ramblings help.
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
Historically speaking the green age (the age after the creation of the P. Tower) lasted a very long time (never disturbed by the (your) PT chaos theory) until the Cleansing wars and the "rampage" of the champions and their defiling weapon. (evil magic) but I admit your theory has some sence when you say;I don't think that the Rhulisti really knew all the side-effects that the Tower would have on the world - they needed a solution fast to their situation at the time, and the Tower was what they used. But again it was never mentionned that the PT had an "ego" of its own its just a very powerfull artifact.
Well, there may just not have been enough effects (or the effects were too gradual) before the Cleansing Wars to make people take notice. I mean, the Jagged Cliffs were already in place (the Rhulisti having already banished the Nature-Benders and all), so people may not have noticed that the ocean was further receeding... it might have been at a rate of one foot every century - you know, a really slow process. The Dark Lens used in conjunction with the Pristine Tower accelerated the process - the sun bloated & changed color (basically aged rapidly), and the oceans receeded even further & at a more rapid pace. Also - I never said the PT had an ego of it's own. Just consider it an engine which was left running, and was simply using its' fuel.
Now true - the massive deserts in the Tyr Region are blamed primarily on the Dragon, and secondarily on the other Champions, and I totally agree that defiling is the leading cause of the destruction of Athas in general; I'm just saying that the Pristine Tower could have already set the planet's destruction in motion. After all - it uses energy from the Sun (and the Dark Lens focuses/boosts that as well if I recall), has caused the sun to change size and color - part of which I believe is not only the sun being affected, but I think it's decaying Athas' orbital path, and causing the world to get closer to it's sun as well. It is known to affect creatures near it radically, maybe it affects creatures far away from it on a more subtle nature - assisting & augmenting the adaptation process these critters needed to survive on the new & improved, harsher climate of Athas.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Also, you keep mentioning that the inner planes do not affect Athas, that it only goes the other way. This is not the case. The following quote is from page 75 of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water:
There is a connection between the two, obviously, but it goes both ways.
To that I would be tempted to say: Because some fanatics are proclaiming en event on Athas is due to some "power" doesn't mean its the truth. Same reaction if I say that some fanatics on earth are claiming that the floods in France are the result of God's rath...... see my point???
But when I took the time to read the whole page (75) I read the following. Yet,there is also a connection between battles fought on the inner planes and the succes of particular elements on the surface of athas.
So I neel and say: you are right
In the novel 'Rise and Fall of a Dragon King', Hamanu briefly considers fleeing the Tablelands to another part of the planet when his cause looks completely lost.
He certainly knew not only that the other side of Athas was habitable (by a SK, at any rate), but also how to get there. And since teleportation works by being able to visualize your destination, even through the Gray, perhaps the SKs have visited the rest of the world.
So the SKs have it within their power to visit any portion of Athas. Why they settled in such a small area? Perhaps the population of the planet has shrunk so much that society has clustered together in a smaller area. Athas is a dying world, after all.