How would you handle this? I know that she wouldn't get the benefits of being a WoHS, since she won't be taking levels in it. Do you think it could cause problems?
Spellcasting classes that gain their powers from a god cannot multiclass into another spellcasting class that gains their power from another god. So basically, a cleric/wizard is out, unless you home rule that to allow clerics of the moon gods.
Now, you might be able to go for a cleric/sorcerer or a wizard/mystic.
My personal suggestion is to go with a sorcerer/mystic for the mystic theurge. This allows for multiclassing freedom, plus it makes sense in-world as well. Such a character would be what is called a "hybrid mage", who sees little difference between arcane and divine spells.
Hope that helps.
It's all a question of patron deities. You can't have more than one patron deity from whom you gain power and commit your soul to. A wizard who hasn't passed the Test or who isn't a member of the Orders is just a wizard, and may not have any patron deity at all. The moons don't affect him, he just knows how the magic spells work and can cast them as usual.
This wizard may decide he's a big fan of Chislev and become a cleric of Chislev. Chislev is fine with this, as are Lunitari and Solinari and Nuitari, since they're not his patrons. Of course, if he's a renegade (and can cast spells beyond what would normally require Testing first) then the moon gods won't be happy, and the Orders will come after him. Chislev may or may not help him out. Likely, she'll see how he handles it, since she's a neutral goddess and believes in survival of the fittest. If he can handle the situation and avoid the Orders, great! If not, then at least his soul is in her hands at the moment of his death.
Note that this is all different from the reasons why wizards and sorcerers, and clerics and mystics can't multiclass. You can't use magic of an ambient and focused form at the same time if the magic's type (divine or arcane) is the same. So, no cleric/mystics, no druid/mystics, and no ranger/mystics (if the ranger is capable of casting spells, that is). Also, no bard/wizards or assassin/wizards or sorcerer/wizards.
Hope that all makes sense. The stickler's the patron deity thing. A Wizard of High Sorcery's already chosen his patron, and can't have another. Minor wizards are free to do otherwise and accept the consequences.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Note that this is all different from the reasons why wizards and sorcerers, and clerics and mystics can't multiclass. You can't use magic of an ambient and focused form at the same time if the magic's type (divine or arcane) is the same. So, no cleric/mystics, no druid/mystics, and no ranger/mystics (if the ranger is capable of casting spells, that is). Also, no bard/wizards or assassin/wizards or sorcerer/wizards.
I don't see why the reason is different, at least regarding arcane magic. I can understand the cleric/mystic argument - both classes' abilities come from faith, and it's very difficult if not impossible to have true faith in two different philosophies/religions/etc.
However, the sorcerer/wizard, bard/wizard, etc. should be a valid multiclassing option, if rare. The sor/wiz might not be a Wizard of High Sorcery, or the bard9 (or rogue5/assn4) might decide to explore the concept of wizardry. I think it's completely feasible.
I wrote to my player, and pretty much repeated what you guys wrote here, thanks.
Originally posted by Shugi
I don't see why the reason is different, at least regarding arcane magic. I can understand the cleric/mystic argument - both classes' abilities come from faith, and it's very difficult if not impossible to have true faith in two different philosophies/religions/etc.
However, the sorcerer/wizard, bard/wizard, etc. should be a valid multiclassing option, if rare. The sor/wiz might not be a Wizard of High Sorcery, or the bard9 (or rogue5/assn4) might decide to explore the concept of wizardry. I think it's completely feasible.
The reason stems from the idea that the Wizards of High Sorcery demand total dedication to magic (High Sorcery). Personally, I'm of the mind that a WoHS' multi-classing options should be limited, akin to the monk or paladin, due to this dedication. IMO, WoHS should only multi-class with other classes dedicated to the use of High Sorcery.
Another reason is that Wild Sorcery is "tainted" by the power of Chaos. Some see its fluid nature as dangerous, ergo why the Orders of High Sorcery were created to begin with.
Originally posted by Shugi
We seem to be skirting the issue - I'm talking about wizards (the class), not Wizards of High Sorcery (the organization). I don't see why any non-WoHS should be restricted in this fashion.
Ah, but wizards and WoHS are nearly synonymous in Dragonlance. Very few are renegades.
My rule of thumb with spellcaster classes is to "follow the god". If a spellcasting class requires you to follow a god (i.e. cleric, druid, ranger, paladin (non-standard), WoHS), then you can only multiclass with classes that represent the goals and ideals of the god.
For example, I would most definitely allow a cleric of Branchala to multiclass with bard, or a cleric of Majere to freely multiclass with monk.
By this rule, a low-level or renegade wizard could freely multiclass all he wants, so long as any other spellcasting class' deity (if any) is fine with it.
This little rule of mine has served me well throughout the years.
Now this begs the question - can you be a renegade wizard/sorcerer? Hrmm....
Originally posted by Shugi
We seem to be skirting the issue - I'm talking about wizards (the class), not Wizards of High Sorcery (the organization). I don't see why any non-WoHS should be restricted in this fashion.
High sorcery (wizard magic) and wild or primal sorcery (sorcerer magic) are like fire and water. One cannot use them both together. Wild magic is tainted with Chaos while high sorcery is refined and focused, and being able to use one while also attempting to use the other is impossible.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
High sorcery (wizard magic) and wild or primal sorcery (sorcerer magic) are like fire and water. One cannot use them both together. Wild magic is tainted with Chaos while high sorcery is refined and focused, and being able to use one while also attempting to use the other is impossible.
Cheers,
Cam
I agree with you there, insofar as there would be no Human (or elf, dwarf, gnome, etc) Wizard/Sorcerers. However, it seems as though natural arcane spellcasters (creatures that cast spells as a sorcerer of a certain level) could multiclass into Wizard.
e.g. A bozak draconian casts spells naturally as a sorcerer of the bozak's racial hit dice (i.e. as a level 4 sorcerer). Seems quite workable for this same bozak to take levels of Wizard. Though once he did so, then he'd be unable to take actual levels in the sorcerer class.
Originally posted by iltharanos
I agree with you there, insofar as there would be no Human (or elf, dwarf, gnome, etc) Wizard/Sorcerers.
So are you saying that humans shouldn't be able to multiclass into Sor/Wiz? :D Sorry, just read your post on the other thread.
I don't really mind the multi-classing "pseudo-house rule", but with sorcerers & wizards I think that it presents a dangerous precedent akin to 2E, and also offers too many issues. Some of these are rhetorical (because of "changing focus"), but off the top of my head:
*If Wild Sorcery is inherently chaotic, and High Sorcery is inherently orderly/lawful, why aren't we excluding lawful sorcerers and chaotic wizards?
*As stated by Ilthranos, what about creatures with inherent cleric or sorcerer abilities? Is the "other magic" forever beyond them? Does this mean that dragons can never learn mysticism or High Sorcery?
*What about prestige classes that grant their own spell list (assassin is the only "core" PrC of this kind)? Wizards can never become part of the assassin prestige class?
*Insert the requisite questions concerning bards.
*Shouldn't it be possible (at least in theory) for someone to try balancing the two types of arcane (or divine) magic? DL is supposed to be about balance, after all...
And so on.
Originally posted by Shugi
*If Wild Sorcery is inherently chaotic, and High Sorcery is inherently orderly/lawful, why aren't we excluding lawful sorcerers and chaotic wizards?
Not really. Dragonlance Chaos isn't exactly the same as D&D chaos. There are some chaotic evil Black Robes, but that doesn't make them tainted by Chaos, if you follow.
*As stated by Ilthranos, what about creatures with inherent cleric or sorcerer abilities? Is the "other magic" forever beyond them? Does this mean that dragons can never learn mysticism or High Sorcery?
Dragons (and other innately magical creatures) are special cases. Dragon magic isn't the same as the kind mortals use, even mortal sorcerers (who despite some people's claims don't have dragon blood). They're able to use certain clerical domains as arcane, and some can cast spells from the cleric list as arcane spells, too. Essentially, they were given their magic by the gods when they were created, and so although it's cast like a sorcerer casts his spells, it isn't tainted with Chaos' influence. Ditto other magical creatures.
*What about prestige classes that grant their own spell list (assassin is the only "core" PrC of this kind)? Wizards can never become part of the assassin prestige class?
Correct. Assassins cast spells "as bards do" so, technically, there weren't any 3.5 assassin characters casting spells prior to the Age of Mortals, just as there weren't any 3.5 bards casting spells prior to the Age of Mortals.
*Insert the requisite questions concerning bards.
No wizard/bards, nope. Cleric/bards, sure. Sorcerer/bards, yes indeed. Heck, you could be a bard/assassin and really go crazy.
*Shouldn't it be possible (at least in theory) for someone to try balancing the two types of arcane (or divine) magic? DL is supposed to be about balance, after all...
The trick would be to access the primal magic of Krynn in a way that filters out the Chaos, but the Gods of Magic do that so much better than mortals ever could.
The balance is that the two kinds of magic exist alongside each other. They don't have to work with each other to be balanced. Nobody ever said Dragonlance was about homogeneity. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
In the Defenders of Magic trilogy the main character was both a Druid and a WoHS. Infact he became a druid after he was a WoHS for a substantial period. Needless to say the gods of magic didn't smite him for becoming a druid.
Since it is proven that one can be both a Druid and a WoHS then either:
a. WoHS do not recieve their magic directly from the gods
or
b. You can recieve magic from multiple gods.
I'm probably going to swing for bringing this up but it is pertinate to the conversation.
Originally posted by Nived
Wasn't it in the Cronicles trilogy where it was said that Verminaard took and passed his test of High Scorcery... but he was also (later) a Cleric of Takhisis...
I'm probably going to swing for bringing this up but it is pertinate to the conversation.
No, it was Ariakas who took his Test and was a magic-user in _Chronicles_. Ariakas in the adventures was a cleric, which has led to much confusion and debate.
Matthew L. Martin
Either way my point stands there is a basis for it, though I got the character wrong, in the foundation of the series.
Originally posted by Shugi
*If Wild Sorcery is inherently chaotic, and High Sorcery is inherently orderly/lawful, why aren't we excluding lawful sorcerers and chaotic wizards?
While the magic may have these traits, the magic-users may not. Sure, it is a tendency for wizards to be lawful and sorcerers to be chaotic, but this is not an absolute truth. I see this as no different from wizards and sorcerers in the PHB.
*As stated by Ilthranos, what about creatures with inherent cleric or sorcerer abilities? Is the "other magic" forever beyond them? Does this mean that dragons can never learn mysticism or High Sorcery?
It is possible that magical creatures can have inherent mystic levels. We just don't see this since the mystic is not a core class in the PHB. For example, Heroes of Sorcery talks about the dragon mage, and mentions a possible variant called a dragon mystic. One would assume, then, that a dragon could have inherent mystic levels, rather than inherent sorcerer levels.
High Sorcery may be possible as well, but the creature would need a high enough intelligence. The irda could be seen in this light, especially since they are drawn to their island home by the light of Solinari. A dragon could take a level of wizard, although I highly doubt a dragon would become a WoHS. You never know, though.
*Shouldn't it be possible (at least in theory) for someone to try balancing the two types of arcane (or divine) magic? DL is supposed to be about balance, after all...
In a way, they are balanced. The focused magic of the gods is supposed to be more powerful, but the ambient magic of Krynn is more flexible.
Problem is, we're looking at DL in terms of both world flavor and rules, which don't always mesh 100%. From a rules standpoint, it may be beneficial to look at magic as arcane and divine - the difference being where the magic comes from.
Great discussion, guys!
The only thing that worries me is that this seems to introduce new limits to game options. In other words, we've been gung-ho about tossing the 1E and 2E class limits (level limits, kender wizards, etc) but seem to advocate new 3E class limits. That's what just... rubs the the wrong way, I guess.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
I nthe Dragonlance world, it is not possilbe to receive spells from 2 soources. ergo there can be no wizards/clerics. It is not that hard to undertand, you cannot have two patron deities. It would like being a Christian buddhist or somethink like that in the real world.
More specifically, you can be a sor/clr or sor/mys. You can be a wiz/clr or wiz/mys as well, but you would be a renegade (unless you only had 3-4 wizard levels).
Originally posted by Shugi
The only thing that worries me is that this seems to introduce new limits to game options. In other words, we've been gung-ho about tossing the 1E and 2E class limits (level limits, kender wizards, etc) but seem to advocate new 3E class limits. That's what just... rubs the the wrong way, I guess.
True enough, but most of the limitations are gone. Those few which remain are more for world flavor than anything else, to "keep it Dragonlance" and be consistent with novels. There really is nothing game-breaking about playing a sorcerer/wizard if you really wanted to. I'm merely pointing out the status quo situation, given that it's easier to adjust that than account for every possible outcome.
It should also be clear from the phrasing in the 3.5 Dungeon Masters Guide that the open structure of the core rulebooks is not necessarily the state of all game worlds. The philosophy was that it's much much easier to introduce limits than to remove them.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Halabis
In the Defenders of Magic trilogy the main character was both a Druid and a WoHS. Infact he became a druid after he was a WoHS for a substantial period. Needless to say the gods of magic didn't smite him for becoming a druid.
He wasn't a druid.
Nope. Move along, nothing to see here.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Shugi
I like the discussion myself, partly because I agree more with Cam & Dragonhelm than myself. Devil's advocate and all.
I like playing Takhisis' Advocate myself at times.
The only thing that worries me is that this seems to introduce new limits to game options. In other words, we've been gung-ho about tossing the 1E and 2E class limits (level limits, kender wizards, etc) but seem to advocate new 3E class limits. That's what just... rubs the the wrong way, I guess.
I totally understand where you're coming from. It's something I've wrestled with myself. If you think DL is bad, try out Rokugan sometime. That's one setting where there is little multiclassing.
This is one of those areas where we have world mechanics vs. rules mechanics. D&D is all about free multiclassing, yet Dragonlance is more restrictive. Thing is, without those restrictions, we would lose some of the world flavor.
So again - balance, save that this is balance between rules and world flavor.
Also, I may be wrong with this one but I don't remember reading anywhere - novels or campaign settings - where clerics of the moon gods were forbidden. In that I mean, though they were never detailed does that mean they are completely non-existent?
After all, druids never figured in powerfully with the primary novels and there is no problem playing one of them.
Originally posted by Khull-Khuum
Also, I may be wrong with this one but I don't remember reading anywhere - novels or campaign settings - where clerics of the moon gods were forbidden. In that I mean, though they were never detailed does that mean they are completely non-existent?
The moon gods do not have clerics, nor do they grant divine magic, according to the DLCS. DLA was a bit vague about the issue. Tales of the Lance allowed for clerics of the moon gods, but you had to have around 5 levels of wizard first. Consider it a predecessor to the prestige class.
Granted, there will be those who do wish to have clerics of the moon gods. If you go for this option, then yes a cleric/mage is perfectly fine. It's that patron deity thing again.
After all, druids never figured in powerfully with the primary novels and there is no problem playing one of them.
Novels are tales of the world of Krynn. Some are true, some are "kender tales", but in the end, we all have fun.
The DLCS shows you how to play D&D in the world of Krynn. In a sense, it isn't a true DL RPG. It's taking D&D rules and implementing them for play in Krynn. It's a pretty close fit, but not quite 100%.
What we have to remember is that the DLCS is the official guideline. It's a giant suggestion on how to play in the world of Krynn. How we actually play will be based on our own perceptions and preferences, whether it matches what the DLCS says or not.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I totally understand where you're coming from. It's something I've wrestled with myself. If you think DL is bad, try out Rokugan sometime. That's one setting where there is little multiclassing.
Having played in and run games in Rokugan, I can agree here. Samurai/Shugenja, how about no. Basically anything involving mixing the samurai or shugenja class with anything whatsoever was all but unheard of. The samurai class was a little more lenient, but not much. With the shugenja class, multiclassing was outright forbidden. Period. End of Story. You have to start out as one, and you can't multiclass, at all(prestige classing is not multiclassing). How's that for restrictions.
I view the multiclass restriction for wizards/clerics as a really good thing actually. I am kinda tired of seeing wizards being used as direct divine agents, as per Elminster and to a lesser extent, Mordenkainen. I like my wizards and cleric separate, thank you. With the WoHS/sorceror it is pretty logical to figure out why that one does not work.
I think I am done now.
Also, has anyone played Munchkin? It has the best rules for multi-classing. You have to play the card 'Super Munchkin', and then you can put an extra class on your character sheet. They also stack - with three Super Munchkin cards, you can have 4 classes. If it helps, it's the same for races, but with the 'Half-breed' card. Half-orc, half-elf, half-halfling, half-dwarf fighter/cleric/bard/wizard... wheee...
Originally posted by Calabozo
What about the wizard/rogue PrC that comes in the DMG? I forgot the name, whats your point of view of a WoHS taking that prestige guys?
I prefer the spellfilch from the Age of Mortals Campaign Companion, but then I'm obscenely biased.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I prefer the spellfilch from the Age of Mortals Campaign Companion, but then I'm obscenely biased.
Allow me to stroke your ego...just this once.
The Spell Filch very slick. A friend of mine played a kender spell filch in a short game I ran about 2 years ago (using SAGA). And this prestige class did an excellent job of capturing the flavor of that role, I thought.
Shoot...all the PrCs in the AoM book were really good. I just wish there were more.
I'm sure, though, that every book that comes out will have more and more...until I'm over satisfied.
Did I mention the fact that I loved that SAGA had close to 100 Roles? heh heh
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I prefer the spellfilch from the Age of Mortals Campaign Companion, but then I'm obscenely biased.
Cheers,
Cam
That's been noticed before in a different prestige class.
Though to be fair, I love the Spell Filch, I think it's got some of the most personality ever for a PrC. One of my friend's is playing one with a character that is not unlike Phillip from Ladyhawke. Endless amusement there.
For the wiz/sor combo, I reckon its okay, as the character is still dedicating themselves to magic. While it isn't the type the moon gods grant (from the sor part), at least they passed the Test and proven that they have adequate control of magic. Generally, WOHS seek three things: spread of magic; proper control of magic (as in wizards able to control their magical effects without killing themselves); and research of magic. As long as a purely sor character will do these, I think its ok.
On wiz/cleric combo, I say sure, with alignment restrictions only. The moon gods may demand dedication, but as long as the character continues to promote magic, and the other god whom they worship don't have clash of ideals then it's okay. E.g a character might study and use fire arcane spells while worshipping Sirrion. Is it DL? Som DL Gods are generally not jealous (though Takhesis might, but she's gone now). In any case, moon gods while being more active and role-influencing in the DL world, wizards still have a greater independence than clerics.
Wizard of High Sorcery/Cleric: No. This can not happen, unless you believe that the moon gods can have clerics, that's the only way.
Renegade Wizard/Cleric: Yes, but would probably be evil, because no gods of Good and few gods of Neutrality would grant spells to a renegade, at least in my opinion.
Wizard of High Sorcery/Sorcerer: No. The gods of Magic would not appreciate the WoHS learning ambient magic.
Renegade Wizard/Sorcerer: Yes. I can see this happening.
Wizard of High Sorcery/Druid: No, can't get power from two deities.
Renegade Wizard/Druid: Sure, but as I said earlier, probably only Zeboim would except him.
Wizard of High Sorcery/Mystic: Maybe. There's nothing specifically preventing them from multiclassing as mystics, but I think that the gods of magic might not approve.
Renegade Wizard/Mystic: Sure, that would actually be pretty cool.
Wizard of High Sorcery/Ranger: No.
Renagade Wizard/Ranger: Sure.
Wizard of High Sorcery/Bard: Same as Sorcerer.
Renegade Wizard/Bard: Same as Sorcerer.
Wizard of High Sorcery/Renegade Wizard: ...waaaaait...
Sorcerer/Cleric: Maybe, but god might feel jealous, if you get what I'm saying.
Sorcerer/Druid: Same as Cleric.
Sorcerer/Ranger: Same as Cleric.
Sorcerer/Bard: Sure, they would go great together.
Sorcerer/Mystic: Again, would go great together.
There, you see? Isn't it much easier when put down like that?