tryst
We know Azalin uses dreams to help Kargat agents develop a plan for returning him to his throne, he also likely absorbs the strength from particular subjects to grow stronger,
We know that there was a rogue Kargat Agent who tried to impede his plan and is now in exile when she fails,
Death creates some 'horsemen' to travel Darkon killing, pillaging and not being overall very nice in order to learn what Azalin is planning and to stop him, they also kill all the people Azalin absorbs energy from,
Some hero's spoil Death's plan and Azalin returns to his throne one iron crown shorter but with many new nifty powers. He then proceeds to kill the horsemen which weakens Death.
I'd also imagine that the group of monsters that ruled Darkon in Azalin's absence will try a few schemes of their own to ensure their power.
I myself am drafting up the plans for this adventure as I write this, it may not be canon but I am confident my players will enjoy it all the more due to my ability to tailor the entire campaign without constraints to their (and my own) preferences.
It was monkey-wrenched partially when an impornat NPC was used by the writes of Champions of Darkness. In DU she had an important role as a darkling assasin and was meant to die sometime in the adventure. So her showing up alive is a mite akward...
Why they didn't just have her raised from the dead (it is a fantasy campain with clerics) is beyond me.
Originally posted by The_Jester
Why they didn't just have her raised from the dead (it is a fantasy campain with clerics) is beyond me.
I remember someone brought that up in the discussion, and John had some reason why that wasn't viable. I'd be looking it up on the boards right now if they still existed.
*Pouts*
It does seem like a perfectly plausable way to go about it though. I think it had something to do with the character in the new book was nothing like John envisioned her. Although then i wonder why she just can't have a name change. Hyosoka (spelling) had a few siblings didn't he?
Originally posted by Charney
As far as I'm concerned I'd simply declare Champions of Darkness non-canon and that would solve the problem :D
That sounds like a reasonable fix.
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
Don't get me started on CoDorkness. I hate it. I hate it ALOT.
We know.
Originally posted by Cole Deschain
We know.
Just making sure...
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Guys, you really need to hold off on the behind-the-scenes speculation, because as always, you're completely wrong.
Half the fun is making wild speculations.
The other half is reading your traditional reply.
Maybe you could lend a hand ?
:D
Originally posted by ManinDarkness
Maybe you could lend a hand ?
:D
Probably not, cryptic hints were more Ryan's thing.
Although I'm pretty sure there's like 55 other reasons why DU failed.
So lets go for unoffical here. What would make a cool Azalin returns story. We got the dreams and horsemen and Death. Are there three horsemen and do they have the typical names? Whose body does Azalin take over again? Isn't he in his son's now or something...?
Possibilities right there.
That's if he's of a mind to provide said script of course.
Personally I'd only be interested in adapting it if we had the proper end to the story.
Then again, now you don't even need to do programing with our head developers actor system he created.
Maybe John will surprise us all and build his own game module and keep all the glory for himself..
haha.. Which is only fair as he's the one that did all (or most of) the work.
It's speculation on my part if the last 2E module was solely a labor of love of John's alone, or if the other Kargatane members have helped.
Just like how many licks it takes to get to the toosie roll center of a toosie pop ~The world may never know~
:D
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Guys, you really need to hold off on the behind-the-scenes speculation, because as always, you're completely wrong.
Please, John, could you at least tell us how much of it is written in % ? Or was it all voided with CoDark (not that I know of what happened, but from what has been told in this thread, it seems something happened)
W.C.
Originally posted by Cole Deschain
Don't forget what John told us the cover (which never would have happened even if we HAD gotten DU) would have looked like...
Possibilities right there.
What did he told us (well you, because I wasn't there)?
I think we need all information possible to be coherent. Not that JWM will think we are.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Guys, you really need to hold off on the behind-the-scenes speculation, because as always, you're completely wrong.
With all due respect, the speculation (and pretty much all other cavorting over this topic) would cease if you would tell us more about it.
Originally posted by Alzrius
With all due respect, the speculation (and pretty much all other cavorting over this topic) would cease if you would tell us more about it.
Historically, this is untrue.
So what would the dreams Azalin was sending people/heroes be about?
I think I remember that something was needed to be gathered, so what was needed to resummon Azalin?
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Historically, this is untrue.
Um, no. Historically people are going to make speculation reguardless of what you say. And, as the case of the Ebonacht trilogy shows us, the more that is known about why the project didnt proceed the less specualtion there will be and such rumors as your rampant drug use (an obviously false one i heard at gencon) can be quieted. As it stands, it seems unlikely that Death Undaunted will ever see the light of day, and with so many unanswered questions it may be a good idea to either ignore the speculations completely and let them go wild, or to give the fanbase more information about what was intended and why it failed.
Ashy
By the way Jester, the dreams were described as being 'drowning dreams' and we know it requires people somehow funneling his spirit into his son's bones. The device whose plans were given to trusted Kargat agents and Baron Balitor, was called the 'Soul Focus'.
We must also not forget the treachery of one 'Tavelia' a Kargat of power (who is replaced by Kazandra, who helped Azalin's allies in returning him to the Iron Throne and is rewarded with the title 'General'). Tavelia may have ties to the Gentleman Caller as well. However in my campaign I think I might have her marrying a homegrown character 'James'. I need to think on it.
The Three Horsemen are obviously referenced to the Four Horsemen of the Apocolypse. (By the way, is this group biblical in origin or did they evolve in another story?) The Four would be of course:
Death (the leader)
Famine
War
Pestilence/Plague or Disease (whatever you want to call him/her)
Only the bottom three seem to be out there doing the work of killing Darkonians. However their random genocide seems a little too broad to me and I would imagine they were searching for clues on how to stop Azalin instead of just disembowling every man, woman and child they met. Azalin of course stopped them when he returned, though I was thinking that in order to prevent their power returning to Death upon their destruction he might have them put in stasis or keep their life essense in some kind of container. Once this all occured Death became a Dark Lord.
The whole time of Azalin's apparent destruction to his reincarnation? 5 years.
How much more blood is needed to be spilled on an altar of greed before it becomes of consequence? All I'm reading here is a lot of people complaining about a lack of written material. Use your imagination! Everything you need is already right infront of you and at your fingertips. How about some people trying to discuss some ideas about this chain of events instead of complaining about John not holding their hand while they DM a game.
Let me now list some texts one can use in research for this Adventure (heck one could make a campaign out of this):
The Old Testament (Books of Pentateuch) these being the books of,
Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
The best ones for our purpose being 'Genesis' and possibly 'Leviticus' (if you warp it Ravenloft style).
I've yet to research the 'Apocrypha', you might want to see what that deals with (between Old and New Testament).
New Testament, Books of,
Revelations
Dharma
Revelations being by far the choiciest pick out of the bunch due to its heavy mentions of the end of days. Writing bible style isn't very hard and is effective for phrophcies.
Read the Divine Comedy? Also an excellent resource if you want to adjust Death's Lair or maybe have some interesting Dream Sequences.
There are some books at the back of the Ravenloft Core Rulebook, Kropfsberg Keep is interesting here, Dracula of course for imposing evil atmosphere but if anyone has any suggestions on any literature that could help the DM get into the mindset of Azalin speak out.
Death, Be Not Proud. A poem by John Donne is good and short if you understand it, it helps show the weakness of Death.
Originally posted by ashramry
Um, no. Historically people are going to make speculation reguardless of what you say.
Isn't that what I just said?
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Isn't that what I just said?
actually no, your, matter-a-fact response implied that it was merely the reverse of Azrius's comment.
And, as mentioned in my earlier post other evidence supports the idea that the more the fans know, the less they will disseminate ludicrous speculation.
ashy
But what would the horsemen's power be? What would they look like? Any ideas? I'm getting the idea giant black clad riders armed to the teeth galloping accros the countryside slaughtering all that move might not quite have the atmosphere we're looking for.
Maybe more like the Ring Wraiths...
So lets brainstorm ideas about what the Soul Focus is, looks like, and how it works.
If we're going by standard quest structer the players will be required to gather the components of the device.
So where were the son's bones located? Assuming they weren't left on the Prime Material.
Originally posted by ashramry
actually no, your, matter-a-fact response implied that it was merely the reverse of Azrius's comment.
Correct; which is to say that this:
Originally posted by ashramry
And, as mentioned in my earlier post other evidence supports the idea that the more the fans know, the less they will disseminate ludicrous speculation.
is wrong.
I imagine for the Soul Focus some kind of artifact with lenses, a fair few of them. I'm also seeing some handles on it for people to grip onto and direct its focal point, maybe it could hover. However I dont know how large it would be, unlike the Dooms Day Device (DDD) I dont think the Focus has to be large. It could be pyramid in shape and structure as well with its point being the 'targeter'.
However how would 'Tavelia' be able to enslave Azalin's spirit?
Once captured it could be taken to Death who absorbed the life energy/levels and becomes uber-death or a full Darlord or something.
Maybe the Soul Focus acts like a net gathering the spread out essences of Azalin, maybe the mental fragments have coaleced into people. We know Azalin can re-write memories so parts of his own memory are incorporated into a few dozen people. Some natives, some travelers, etc.
So the heroes have to gather all the people together so the Soul Focus can suck the foreign memories out and focus it into one receptical. A Trap the Soul gem temporarily until a more suitable receptical can be recovered (ie Azalin's phylactery) or a new one made.
This could act as a wonderful Adventure Hook if one of the player's becomes a receptical of Azalin's memories. The party's wizard might find themselves suddenly knowing more spells or becoming more powerful as the memories of the lich filter in. A great temptation to keep, at least until the darker memories, urges, feelings, and desires also start manifesting.
Which brings in Death's plan. He knows if Azalin returns, he's boned (heh). So step one is preventing the return or allowing the return under circumstances he wishes (with a weakened and controlable Azalin). So the horsemen are dispatched to kill the people with Azalin's memories. The memories won't be destroyed when the people die, they'll just be released so Azalin were return weakened and incomplete. If Azalin returns weak and can be dealt with Death can just get those memories later, if Azalin returns at near full power Death is screwed,
So of course his primary concern is killing the people and then securing the receptical of Azalin's essence before it can reanimate the body.
So the heroes have to gather the people, partially build the soul focus while protecting said people, protect everyone while the stuff is going down and hold off the horsemen.
Which also allows for follow-ups such as aiding Azalin in gathering whatever leftover memory bits might be left.
Additionally, perhaps the horsemen absorb the essence of people they slay. Like Death absorbs energy. So to heal themselves they must kill, and they absorb pieces of Azalin when they kill carriers. Which they will give to Death when they see him next.
So how does that sound for rambling brain storming? Workable plot? What holes are we looking at? Any better ideas?
Originally posted by The_Jester
Trap the Soul spell and a really big honking gem?
Once captured it could be taken to Death who absorbed the life energy/levels and becomes uber-death or a full Darlord or something.
Maybe the Soul Focus acts like a net gathering the spread out essences of Azalin, maybe the mental fragments have coaleced into people. We know Azalin can re-write memories so parts of his own memory are incorporated into a few dozen people. Some natives, some travelers, etc.
So the heroes have to gather all the people together so the Soul Focus can suck the foreign memories out and focus it into one receptical. A Trap the Soul gem temporarily until a more suitable receptical can be recovered (ie Azalin's phylactery) or a new one made.
This could act as a wonderful Adventure Hook if one of the player's becomes a receptical of Azalin's memories. The party's wizard might find themselves suddenly knowing more spells or becoming more powerful as the memories of the lich filter in. A great temptation to keep, at least until the darker memories, urges, feelings, and desires also start manifesting.
Which brings in Death's plan. He knows if Azalin returns, he's boned (heh). So step one is preventing the return or allowing the return under circumstances he wishes (with a weakened and controlable Azalin). So the horsemen are dispatched to kill the people with Azalin's memories. The memories won't be destroyed when the people die, they'll just be released so Azalin were return weakened and incomplete. If Azalin returns weak and can be dealt with Death can just get those memories later, if Azalin returns at near full power Death is screwed,
So of course his primary concern is killing the people and then securing the receptical of Azalin's essence before it can reanimate the body.
So the heroes have to gather the people, partially build the soul focus while protecting said people, protect everyone while the stuff is going down and hold off the horsemen.
Which also allows for follow-ups such as aiding Azalin in gathering whatever leftover memory bits might be left.
Additionally, perhaps the horsemen absorb the essence of people they slay. Like Death absorbs energy. So to heal themselves they must kill, and they absorb pieces of Azalin when they kill carriers. Which they will give to Death when they see him next.
So how does that sound for rambling brain storming? Workable plot? What holes are we looking at? Any better ideas?
Don't stop!!!! that's some really good stuff you and Coan are coming up with !!!!
You have to forgive me if i sound silly here, but i haven't heard much about the whole DU...
I love the idea of some natives, some travelers, and the possibility of a PC becoming a receptical of Azalin's memories. Gaining powers and the whole concept of having to track them all down to help a Dark Lord such as Azalin.. My mind is just running with the ideas of good aligned NPC's with a portion of Azalin essence... And I've been looking for an excuse to put in the four horseman !!!!!
Plus I dont see her working for Death unless she and her partner were planning to backstab the Reaper later.
I also would have these 'Drowning Dreams' being Azalin slowly retrieving his own essence from the people of Darkon (a shadowy figure reaching into Darkonians chests and taking energy could be him accumulating his memories back). Of course in his weakened state he could only drain the less powerful people and perhaps there could be some select few who see themselves as Azalin reincarnated or worse. Possibly add the Eternal Order's version of Jesus here as the remaining head clerics not killed in the Requiem worship a powerful wizard who has just recently returned from the dead with knowledge only the person he claims to be would possess, this reborn self styled king calls himself 'Darcalus' (yes an interesting thought if you know who this is).
But Jester please no more Jems with souls in them. Lets have Tavelia use a little more originality, perhaps she planned to infuse Azalin's accumulated essense into herself or her beloved and gain the power one could only dream.
Going with my previous brainstorm the Drowning Dreams would be Azalin inserting his essence or it manifesting rather than the dreams being him retrieving his mind-fragments as you suggest, Coan.
The 'drowning' could be their subconscious slowly being overwhelmed by this foreign mind. Which does work with your 'Eternal Order Jesus' reference. A former priest that now possesses some of the knowledge of the former god-king as he sees him and thus suffers delusions of grandeur. I know if I started channelling my god I’d start having and ego trip. This could be some great build up to the main story with some short stories involving a priest going mad with his new power and claiming to be a divine messiah. Which would make a hero’s development of greater power all the more urgent and dangerous.
Tavelia does work better working independent. She could be given information that would aid her, essentially tempted, by the GC. But he should stay out of the story. She might work well as a betrayer helping the PCs for a while then double crossing them.
While Death has his Horsemen killing and gathering stray Dreamers for their Azalin-essence there could be other factions attempting to gather Dreamers, like the heroes, and make their own soul focus. So they can selectively restore Azalin as a puppet or tool or just steal his power. With that amount of dark energy up for grabs there would be many fingers trying to get in the pie. Such as the aforementioned crazy cleric or servants of another Darklord. I imagine Strahd would like to see Azalin remain dead.
(This is beginning to look more mini-campaign/mega-adventure like.)
I was thinking about the Soul Focus. Couldn’t it look like the Apparatus? Azalin would have seen it and probably has first hand knowledge of its construction. And the purpose is rather similar. But instead of joining or splitting one or two beings its taking a select bit from several and focusing it in one place. And since several –formerly- trusted Kargat members all dreamed of the Soul Focus it would make sense that several could be constructed. Simple glass and all. Except for the Rods, those (if any are used in this) might be harder to find, unique, or require construction. Instead of a rod though I might have a large lens used.
Instead of two small side glass spheres and a middle one there would just be the middle sphere and perhaps a series of connected chairs or tubes. From the dozen plus Dreamers or however many people available the essence is combined into whatever is in the middle sphere. The suggested lens could spin around on a track between the chairs and the middle sphere focusing mental energy into the middle. Think of something nicely arcane-o-babble (the mystic equivalent of technobabble).
Tavelia might choose to place herself in the sphere and select the Dreamers with the most power but least personalities/memories of Azalin. Thus becoming a high level mage in practice herself, or some other unique entity. Possibly even a Domain Lord.
Death just has to have the Dreamers killed so he doesn’t give a D.R.A. (dead rat’s
) about the Soul Focus, and would probably just order it smashed.The heroes would (according to the story) put Azalin’s son’s bones in the middle. Possibly along with his former or new phylactery. What was the lich lord’s pre-Grim Harvest phylactery? Is it the same one he currently has? Is it mentioned in Gaz 2? (My book is two floors down and it’s late here, don’t want to bounce around and rummage through books for 20min to check). Thus mostly restored the hero’s mind is saved and the Kargat baddies stopped. Followed by the Horsemen slain and whatever energy they still had that belonged to Azalin taken back by the rightful owner.
So, any other great ideas?
Originally posted by The_Jester So, any other great ideas?
Let's see:
Why not have S be totally correct about the return of Azalin, for starters? She's often a bit off the mark, but since we don't have a lot to go on, I'm in favor of saying she was 100% correct and then moving on to the part that she doesn't give us, namely the nature of the soul focus and so forth.
Why couldn't the soul focus be Azalin's old phylactery, the dragon-skull? They move it close enough to his son's bones and he hops into them lich-style.
Plus it doesn't really involve all the other people Azalin's essence is supposedly spread into. He was said in Gaz2 to be apart of every living thing in Darkon, or at least every sentient living thing. Or perhaps every sentient being living or otherwise, can't remember the exact working.
But the skull could/should be involved somehow. Its retrieval could be a nice dungeon crawl through Avernus to get it. Fighting sentries and traps and the like.
But I'm for S being right. Not sure exactly what she said, but I don't see why it shouldn't be right.
I have been playing Ravenloft for over 10 years. I have all of the 2nd Edition Ravenloft items except for Death Undaunted. I heard that the Kargatane was going to come out with it as an online adventure, but I never saw it anywhere. I've looked for it online, and I found at at least a few sites that it was an actual book published in February 1999 by TSR. My main question to all of you is this: How do you know all this stuff? Where did you get the information about Death Undaunted?
I've been looking for information about it, and it is scarce, since the Kargatane closed their shop.
I also wanted to say that your piecing together of this adventure so far seems very creative. I wouldn't be surprised if your story matched the lost adventure nearly exacly.
-Nathaniel
There were the Death adventures: Death Unchained and Death Ascendant which lead up to the Requiem: The Grim Harvest boxed set.
So that’s why me and others are brainstorming ideas to flesh out the adventure from the hints that were published.
So onto the Horsemen again. It is said in the Gaz that Death sent out three undead Horsemen to ride the land leaving destruction in their wake.
So the obvious names/natures for the riders is the other Apocalyptic horsemen, as Coan reminded us, are Pestilence, Famine, and War.
I thought that these should be unique undead of course, but each one slain in the manner of their sphere of influence. War was slain in battle and his corpse bears gruesome wounds, Pestilence fell to a plague and his pus covered body is still sickly with illness, and Famine starved to death leaving an emaciated and withered corpse.
They can all probably be constructed with the VanRichten Guide to Walking Dead, I’d suggest making them artificial Revenants. All three would blame the events of the Shrouded Years on their death and hold Azalin responsible. Death uses this blame to raise them with his dark power and animate them against their former sovereign. This would give them special powers over their foe and any living thing that possesses his essence –aka the Dreamers.
Additionally I’d go the obvious route and give them powers over their field, such as corrupting food or causing disease as per the most appropriate spells.
Matthew L. Martin
Originally posted by Sylvain
My main question to all of you is this: How do you know all this stuff? Where did you get the information about Death Undaunted?
Most of what we're getting this from is RL Gazeteer 2. In the History of Darkon section, the book's mysterious author lays out as much as she knows of Azalin's return, and in the Appendix, the bios of Death and Azalin fill in a lot of gaps.
Death, sitting on his throne- Holding a golden infant's skull, as if in contemplation...
Originally posted by Cole Deschain
And correct me if I screw this up, John...
Death, sitting on his throne- Holding a golden infant's skull, as if in contemplation...
... and saying "Alas, poor Yoric, I knew him Horatio " ?!:D
Originally posted by ashramry
such rumors as your rampant drug use (an obviously false one i heard at gencon) can be quieted.
I didn't even notice this comment until it was pointed out to me.
Wow, with fans like that you really have to wonder why I lost all interest in producing free 100-page adventures for them.
Originally posted by ashramry
...it may be a good idea to either ignore the speculations completely and let them go wild, or to give the fanbase more information about what was intended and why it failed.
While I wish we knew what John had planned, he doesn't owe us anything. Our version of the adventure may not be as great as his, but I'd rather have a decent adventure by willing authors than a terrific one at the point of a gun. Assuming John is the only one that can write this adventure is denying our own creativity and demanding too much of someone who has already given us plenty.
Thanks for everything, John. I think we'll manage from here.
As for anybody else, if you want John's version that badly--or even the components that he was planning to include--I say you offer to pay him for it. That may seem mercenary of me, but I think John realized one day that he was cheapening his great ideas by giving them away for free. Some things are too good to give away for free, and I think John's work qualifies.
Awakenings
aka DeepShadow
P.S. Please don't crucify John for words he didn't say. If you have a problem with what I've said in this post, address it to me.
Just curious if you can clear this up. You actually wouldn't be allowed to draft DU if fans paid you as Awakenings suggests because it would be against copyright infridgement right?
Even if you were to finish penning the module, and posted it for free on John Mangrum.com but you charged money for member access to your site, that would also be against copyright infrindgement right?
What about a site that exists solely on donations? Those that make a donation get special access as a thank you?
I'm curious because those of us developing the fan made video game are thinking of using our own money to print up some booklets, maps, etc. to go along with the game, as a limited run. For our portfolios, to send out to industry people, maybe give a few away in a contest, etc.
I've always wondered, I'm sure some fans would like such an item, however if I understand the laws correctly we would be in violation if we even asked for shipping and handling or for fans to pay for the cost of a disk and case right? Since Ravenloft is a copywrited entity?
I figured the only way to offer these materials to fans would be to post a PDF on the web for free download, even though it doesn't look as nice as a printed booklet. We aren't looking to screw the system. I'm just wondering if there is a legal way that allows us to break even, not make a profit and distribute the product to the world. since you work in the industry I was wondering if you can shed any light on all this?
~Andrew
Originally posted by daffy72
I'm just wondering if there is a legal way that allows us to break even, not make a profit and distribute the product to the world.
In a word, no. If completed, it could only be distributed if Arthaus approved it. (WotC also had -- and has -- the right to yank the entite BoS series, if it cared to. Fortunately for us, the WotC Kargat were entirely supportive.) Arthaus would never approve the commercial distribution of a product in direct competition with its own (and nor would WotC), although they did -- after some discussion -- give us permission to complete our adventures for free distribution.
I could "generize" it and release it under the d20 license, but I'm not interested in doing that.
[i](WotC also had -- and has -- the right to yank the entite BoS series, if it cared to. Fortunately for us, the WotC Kargat were entirely supportive.) [/b]
Is this because Secrets of the Kargatane was the official Ravenloft website, or is it true of all Ravenloft-material-using netbooks?
Originally posted by Dmitri Stanislaus
Is this because Secrets of the Kargatane was the official Ravenloft website, or is it true of all Ravenloft-material-using netbooks?
We were putting out netbooks long before we were the official website (and, depending on one's point of view, long after). It's because the Kargat were generally open and receptive to their readers (even in an era when TSR as a company was far from fan-friendly), and because we strived to build a healthy, cooperative relationship with them -- our netbooks were a respectful tribute to the Kargat's work, and our group's name was not chosen at random.
This is also past tense; it's Arthaus that fans primarily need to concern themselves with now.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
We were putting out netbooks long before we were the official website (and, depending on one's point of view, long after). It's because the Kargat were generally open and receptive to their readers (even in an era when TSR as a company was far from fan-friendly), and because we strived to build a healthy, cooperative relationship with them -- our netbooks were a respectful tribute to the Kargat's work, and our group's name was not chosen at random.
This is also past tense; it's Arthaus that fans primarily need to concern themselves with now.
Woops! My bad. I meant to ask if Arthaus and/or WotC can yank any Ravenloft-based netbook at any time, not why the Kargat supported the Kargatane's efforts.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
I didn't even notice this comment until it was pointed out to me.
I heard that too, but I also didn't give it much credit. Still, as I recall, speculation was running rather wild about why DU was so long in delay with no explanation.
Wow, with fans like that you really have to wonder why I lost all interest in producing free 100-page adventures for them.
To be fair, the fans only got nasty when you apparently lost interest in them first. It's not that anyone feels you owe us anything, but rather, after four years of promising that it'll get done and we'll see it, then, after all the stringing-along and reneging on that at the end with no explanation or plans to hand it to someone else...you can't be too surprised when there's some acrimony there.
Originally posted by Alzrius
It's not that anyone feels you owe us anything, but rather, after four years of promising that it'll get done and we'll see it, then, after all the stringing-along and reneging on that at the end with no explanation or plans to hand it to someone else...you can't be too surprised when there's some acrimony there.
As far as I remember, there have never been promises. The future of DU was consitently depicted as uncertain; no release date and no promise to ever get it done.
It would likely have been a very cool adventure.
http://Spiders.ironsource.org/spiders/
Please don't use without permission!
Originally posted by Alzrius
It's not that anyone feels you owe us anything, but rather, after four years of promising that it'll get done and we'll see it, then, after all the stringing-along and reneging on that at the end with no explanation or plans to hand it to someone else...you can't be too surprised when there's some acrimony there.
How dare you. You ungrateful A-hole. John wasn't getting paid. He doesn't owe you anything. And with attitudes and slander like this no wonder it wasn't finished.
At this point if it was me who was writing DU and just read this comment I'd burn whatever I had written.
Wow John. I have the utmost respect for you right now. I thought it was bad enough reading the slander about a drug problem but this.
I can understand when people get ragged on when putting out a printed product. It's BS, but its part of the business and you can't please everyone. Many think they could have done better. Many people complain and only a handful will go the extra effort to actually sit down and write their own fan-fic. Maybe you people complaining are fustrated because you lack originality and can't come up with a creative idea to save your life. That's why you hound the few people who have decent ideas.
Oh my god. I'm still shocked by what I've read. This is something he was doing on his own time. This is why the new Star Wars movies suck. Lucas didn't want to do them. He wanted to move on to other ideas. Back when he was making the Young Indiana Cronicles, it was in the top 5 shows every week. The Wednesday interview with Diane Sawyer where he said, "I'm not into Star Wars right now, I may never get back to it." The next day when young Indy was on it almost didn't even show up in the Neilsen ratings. The next week it had been pulled.
All his other projects failed till he was basically forced to go back and finish these movies. And look what we got.
I just... i can't believe the audacity of some people.
Originally posted by Alzrius
To be fair, the fans only got nasty when you apparently lost interest in them first.
Again you're talking through your butt. John has been our biggest supporter as we get the fan made tools for NWN RL game off the ground. He has continued to help with support, advice and answering questions. Some of you people make me sick. NOTE I said some. A select few. But those few have really leached all the fun out of this project for me.
~Andrew Bator
No, I do not feel that the writers 'owe' me anything - they have given us so much already. But I cannot help but feel a sense of loss that we may never see the last true adventure. This is the chance to see something epic. This is not just some hobby, this is the history of the demi-plane. I think I speak for many, many Ravenloft fans when I say that Swords & Sorcery can never compare to the ingenuity and creative efforts of the 2nd Edition team - not by a long shot. This to me, is the Last True Ravenloft product. That alone, I think would be inspiration. Sure, we can all speculate and come up with our own ideas. We're all very creative.
But what really happened?
Whether it is for other gamers, or for Ravenloft itself, I think that the real substance behind this fantasy world needs to be brought forth. If this last piece of the puzzle were never to be shared, then Ravenloft ends with the jumbled half-truths of Swords and Sorcery's flying monkeys. Forget Arthaus. I think that Ravenloft is beyond them.
If this part of the story is told, then the tale has a suiting end. Be it dark, mysterious, or unusual, Ravenloft would have an ending worthy of the line. This is why we are all here.
If the author isn't up for it, for whatever reason, we will understand, but we won't just forget Death Undaunted. In one form or another this part of the history needs to exist. I think all true Ravenloft fans would prefer that John W. Mangrum be the one to tell it.
I apologize if my forwardness has offended anyone, and I did not mean to disrupt the flow of your creative discussions.
I think you're reading a tad too much into Alzrius' post. And I think Mr. Mangrum can defend himself nicely.
I think Alzrius was saying that after several years of being told something is being written and will be coming out and then suddenly finding out it's not there is going to be dissapointment.
And if not much information is revealed there will be speculation. It is almost human nature. People hear A or guess B and mishear C and things spread. It happens.
And having the project unfinished despite so many promises (or implied promises as the case may be) does feel like being lied to. Yes there are often very good reasons for it (probably four or five excellent reasons), but that doesn't always ease the hurt.
It's like being stood up for a date. There could be a very good excuse but there is still some hurt feelings.
I don't blame anyone and I'm not ****** off or demanding that we're owed anything (we're owed jack squat really), it's just a dissapointment.
Honestly I think most of this talk is going nowhere but to locked-thread-dom. So back to brainstorming...
Baron Balitor. He's a trusted Kargat agent, or something. Think Coan mentioned him earlier.
Is he mentioned by name in any other products? Are his stats in any book? What do we know about him and how he's involved with DU?
As a writer myself, I wanted to say that I agree, the adventure should not be 'generalized', or modified from what it was meant to be. Every writer needs to stick with their own artistic vision.
I hate to see real talent warped by corporation.
The former Baron of Il Aluk (before the requiem) and the only Baron in the Histroy of Darkon to volunteer to retire by himself. It was with his help that Azalin was restored. I do not know however if he survived.
tryst
Some have referred to him as the ‘Darklord’ of Necropolis. To clear some things up, that is simply not true. He (It) is clearly defined as being a creature that is not a Darklord. For one, he is not trapped; bound to the land. In theory Death can go wherever it likes. Or maybe it is restricted by the negative energy field - I’m not certain. Furthermore, it is not tormented by anyone. It is described as ‘relishing’ its position and existence. For these reasons, and others, I believe that Death is an avatar of the ‘Dark Powers’.
Firstly, as I’ve stated, it is not trapped, or tormented, but perfectly happy to run around like an evil maniac. Secondly, its name is Death. Is this not the being that Strahd von Zarovich made a pact with? Furthermore, Death was created solely through evil magicks - he is a being which was manifested by mystical forces which are entirely under the gaze of the Dark Powers. We know already that many forms of spells are drastically altered in Ravenloft - likely due to the influence of the Dark Powers. I hope I have not spoiled the ending, but this is my belief. It must be considered when determining the ‘ending’; the final chapter of 2nd Edition. If this is not the Dark Power of Ravenloft, then it must be the other being which was trapped within the shadow rift. The dark, dank pit in the middle of the core must hold the being of ultimate darkness.
Also; the golden infant skull must have something to do with Death’s origins - the golden coffin. And its weakness is birthmarks - or birth signs - it has something to do with the fact that Death is the antithesis of birth; the end to life as opposed to its beginning. Or maybe - if I’m off on the Death avatar thing - this may be the beginning of an indication of Death itself moving in the direction of a Darklord. Being a creature of pure death it may want to create life instead of take it. The gold skull must be in a way, similar to the gold coffin.
This is also another indication of the fact that we don’t have enough information. The true adventure must be filled with strangeness that we’ve never dreamt of.
Originally posted by Sylvain
I think we should thank Jester for keeping us on track here. As I said, I consider myself to be a Ravenloft scholar. Let me give my own personal theory on Death.
Some have referred to him as the ‘Darklord’ of Necropolis. To clear some things up, that is simply not true. He (It) is clearly defined as being a creature that is not a Darklord. For one, he is not trapped; bound to the land. In theory Death can go wherever it likes. Or maybe it is restricted by the negative energy field - I’m not certain. Furthermore, it is not tormented by anyone. It is described as ‘relishing’ its position and existence. For these reasons, and others, I believe that Death is an avatar of the ‘Dark Powers’.
Sorry but this all changed between Requiem and Gaz II. Death is now a full Darklord. I won't reveal all the details but it's clearly stated in Gazetteer II and he now have a curse (a good one too IHO)
By my correction, I was trying to point out the fact that his curse (in Gaz II) defines pretty clearly what Death isn't: mythical Death. He's just a mortal transformed into a artificial being.
And how would Strahd von Zarovich react to someone ruling his nemesis’ nation essentially naming them self as the person that cause his damnation? We’ve already talked about Tavelia, the Kargat, the Caller, and others getting involved. This might be the way to bring Strahd in for those big Barovia fans.
I know the Ebon Gargoyles are unpopular here to say the least, but the consensus is that they work in very small numbers as a highly elite squad. I can see them also getting involved in events. Strahd might view it as his chance to slay his captor while also defeating his oldest foe (Azalin).
Nice eye as always Coan, where did you find that Balitor reference?
Well if the Baron used to be involved with Il Aluk it is presumable he was slain and is now undead. Perhaps he’s Azalin’s go-to-guy in the Slain City. Any adventure this big concerning this Darklord is bound to involve some trip through the biggest city in Darkon. The heroes would need the guide/flower picker.
Originally posted by daffy72
How dare you. You ungrateful A-hole. Oh my god. I'm still shocked by what I've read. I just... i can't believe the audacity of some people. you're talking through your butt. Some of you people make me sick. NOTE I said some. A select few. But those few have really leached all the fun out of this project for me.
Aw, c'mon Andrew, open up, share your real feelings.
Seriously, Sylvain and The_Jester understood the measure of what I was trying to say much better.
That said, do we know why Death was confined to the Shroud in his pre-darklord incarnation? He seemed just fine outside of it during Death Ascendant and the first half of Death Triumphant.
No, Death is not a Dark Power. Yes, it is now a Darklord. Yes, it has a curse. No, it has no ties to Strahd von Zarovitch whatsoever.
And yes, the Ravenloft line does pretty well under 3rd edition, sometimes even outshining previous products where creativity and quality writing are concerned.
As for the adventure planning so far... I must say I'm very impressed by some parts of it. The idea of a PC being stuck with a fragment of Azalin inside him is simply delicious.
As for involving Strahd, I would advise against it. Between Death, the Horsemen, baron Balitor, Tavelia, Kazandra and various Azalin's servants, I think the story is already well served where interesting villains are concerned. To add more would make it... crouded.
Originally posted by Keg of Ale
Between Death, the Horsemen, baron Balitor, Tavelia, Kazandra and various Azalin's servants, I think the story is already well served where interesting villains are concerned. To add more would make it... crouded.
That's probably true, but although nothing JWM said indicates he's there, I think it would be cool to add Andres Duvall also. He's a great character with ties to Azalin and he's never been used since his appearance in the second Ravenloft MC.
Death was confined into the Shroud without becoming a Darklord due to his likely increase in power, his ability to imbue his essence into the undead and control them was, I believe, a side effect of the Requiem. If he left the shroud his power would crumble when the essence of what holds him together would disapear past the shroud.
And for future reference (and possible ideas for campaigns for other players) has anyone considered the possibility of time travel in regards to Death and Strahd? Death goes back in time thanks to his discovery of Azalin's Black Vault and innate knowledge of the very fabric of Ravenloft, meets human Strahd... blah blah blah blah you know how it goes.
As far as I remember, there have never been promises. The future of DU was consitently depicted as uncertain; no release date and no promise to ever get it done.
actually we were given several promises that it was going to be finished well into 2002, only the release date was in question. Hell, originally it was going to be a 2nd ed adventure, but the release of 3e changed that..necessitating an eleventh-hour massive conversion to a then relatively untested and unsupported system of game mechanics. (there may also have been leagal reasons which i am unaware of...but that is "specualtion")
As one of the first to mention the nasty rumors about John, i must say that only the extremely immature believed them outright. By the same token, him getting defensive that these rumors existed does not help the matter. I struggle to think of any well known author that there arent personal rumors about, one need just ignore them and press on. Otherwise it is best that you shy from the limelight.
[i]
It would likely have been a very cool adventure. [/b]
This is not in doubt, but with one amendment. i still think it COULD be a cool adventure. I think the fans either as a group (though obviously it would never be for profit) or as individuals in their own game could make it a good story. I, myself, am currently working my way through Gaz 2 to run it in my own game. I dont know of anyone on this list who has advocated John "holding our hand" durring the creative process, in fact i would be perfectly happy if he didnt have a voice in the creative process past what remarkable work he has already done for it. This does not mean i do not appreciate his taking the time to answer questions posed to him about all things RL, only that we really shouldnt rely on him and should stand alone. That said it is offensive when he tells us not to "speculate" on how things would have been as if the entire story is still part of his
intellectual copyright.
As for the story, i personally want Balitor to have a major role and would be very interested in somehow seeing Death and Azalin interact somehow...even if it is only a long distance communication.
ashy
Originally posted by The Midir
As this thread is about the king of Darkon may I direct your attention to my picture of the "living" Azalin Rex and some other pics from my Ravenloft-Campaign? Every pic starting with RL is Ravenloft related.
http://Spiders.ironsource.org/spiders/
Please don't use without permission!
Just to begin with, I can't draw, and I admire anyone that can make even a portrait. So, please, don't be sad with what I'm going to say next: it's just that your Azalin seems too human for me, and besides, with emotion in his face. It looks definitely sad, perhaps disheartened, a bit mad.
It would be ok if we were talking of Denethor (Lord of the Rings), for instance (minus the crown), but I don't think it is a good Azalin. Sorry, just trying to be constructive. In my POV, Azalin should be cold, emaciated, clearly dead, and if he showed any emotions, those would have to be anger and contempt.
Just my two cents (what's the origin of this expression, btw?).
W.C.
Originally posted by Coan
And for future reference (and possible ideas for campaigns for other players) has anyone considered the possibility of time travel in regards to Death and Strahd? Death goes back in time thanks to his discovery of Azalin's Black Vault and innate knowledge of the very fabric of Ravenloft, meets human Strahd... blah blah blah blah you know how it goes.
Now, don't you dare!!!
Time travelling is the worst thing to do in a story of any kind, and I haven't yet read a story where it was well-done. Sooner or later, the writer always makes a mistake in conception, philosophy, logic of physics, and the whole story is ruined.
Don't, please don't, use time-travelling. Your suggestion (very common nowadays, but still awful) is that the whole story is a circle, and an inescapable one at that, that the beginning is always prompted by the end. So, what was the cause ?
- Strahd meets death and makes a pact.
- Ravenloft is formed
- centuries later, death arises (how, did it not exist before ? Is it the first time this being takes essence ?)
- death travels back to meet Strahd and makes a pact (to create RL ? so it can exist later ? but it already does!!! So, if death didn't come back, then Strahd would never have made the pact ? So RL did not exist ? So death could not have come back ? So death MUST now forcibly come back, so it is constrained by Fate ? But then, how did it disappear in the mean time to reapper later ? and why ?)
This is why time-travelling always seems silly to me. And if you really want my vision on time-travel under the light of relativity, it's just like watching a TV show. You cannot, definitely, interact, since all you are watching is the light of past events that already happened. More on this later, I just don't have the time now.
W.C.
Trying to examine time travel like you are doing is too complex. One must look at it in the larger perspective. But this takes us off track.
Back to Death Undaunted.
Having Death in the background obviously isn't enough. If the PCs haven't attempted any of the other 'Death' adventures they wouldn't even know who he is. Death is a character worth fleshing out, so how to we go about bringing him into the spotlight?
Have the PCs go into the city? Perhaps but a simple fight scene isn't going to work, Death must be shown as something more yet the message remain that he is evil. For the PCs are going to help Azalin return, Death obviously has to seem like the greater evil (or another reason should be brought forward). How so?
Originally posted by Coan
Having Death in the background obviously isn't enough.
In my opinion, it is. The Gaz II gave me the impression that most of the action takes place someplace around Martira Bay. I think keeping Death as a "mastermind" behind the Horsemen's attacks is chilling enough.
Just like I said the adventure shouldn't be overcrowded, I don't think it should feature "all" the interesting bits of Ravenloft. Just those that are pertinent to the adventure will do just fine.
Originally posted by ashramry
As one of the first to mention the nasty rumors about John, i must say that only the extremely immature believed them outright. By the same token, him getting defensive that these rumors existed does not help the matter. I struggle to think of any well known author that there arent personal rumors about, one need just ignore them and press on. Otherwise it is best that you shy from the limelight.
[...]
This does not mean i do not appreciate his taking the time to answer questions posed to him about all things RL, only that we really shouldnt rely on him and should stand alone. That said it is offensive when he tells us not to "speculate" on how things would have been as if the entire story is still part of his
intellectual copyright.
From what I've seen, John never did "get defensive" about the rumor you mentionned. He was displeased with the rather impertinent way it was brought up, however.
As for "intellectual copyright", I don't think he said anything about that. He did say that we were "completely wrong" concerning our speculation on the "behind the scenes" of the project completion, though.
Originally posted by Coan
[b]Bah you forget that scientists have already proved light can move faster than the so called 'constant'. The mere physics of reality are simply guide lines to be bent and twisted by the mathematically improbable.Originally posted by Coan
Now, have they ? Sorry to go on off-topic, but I have several personal reasons to have interest in this topic. What scientists are beginning to show, is that the speed of light hasn't always been the same, but stays a constant at any given moment, at least in the time frame studied.
But the reasoning I gave earlier has nothing of Physics in it (well, there's magic and all, apart from certain rules of plausability, phisics don't have anything to do here), and is just the way to show how time-travel can lead you to impossibility pits and unpleasant stories. I've read a few SF stories about time-travel, and some of these last month.
One of them went like this: some time-cops went back to Holmes' era because they found in a saxon tomb from the Vth century a device from the XXXth century or so. They investigated who put it there, aprehended the criminal (time-travellers wishing to change the course of history were criminals), put him in prison and then went back to the tomb and put the device there so that 14 centuries later they could be again signaled they had to go back to aprehend the criminal again.
Silly, if you ask me. Pointless, infinite loop. Plus, it takes all the determinism from people, there is a fate, we are doing only what we already did because we must do it, because if we don't, everything will stop being in our future. And if that future fails, then we won't have the trigger that made us do what we are doing now. And we fatally end up doing what we should because we're still here. But this is essentially a blind faith in Fate, that all is pre-written. The difference, is that is keeps repeating itself. So, at some point in the future, there must be an event where people time-travel backwards and begin all-again. Pointless, awkward, unsatisfying, at least for me.
I lose all respect for writers who try to write about something they don't know enough about and then make gross mistakes. I've read several of them, and I don't apologize them easily. People tend to believe that writers have full freedom in what they should write. I think they don't, and I'm really put off by writers who shrug and say "it's just fiction, I can do whatever I want". Yes, provided there's a motive, there's a logic, there's plausible actions and fundaments to every actor's action. Failing that, the story doesn't hold. There's an article somewhere on the net about the Lord of the Rings trilogy. It's a joke, let me say it beforehand, but I think it is funny and very well done. Someone pretending that LotR was a novel belonging to an RPG line called Middle Earth (or something), so that the book was based on the game and not the other way around. Well, the critic said "if Gandalf and Elrond are so powerful, why didn't they just use the spell so-and-so which they had at their disposal to destroy the ring then and there and save us the trouble" ? Valid point, if Gandalf and Elrond had the spell. Obviously, in the book, such thing did not exist, but this illustrates the point that within a story, the actors should do what is more plausible for them to do, considering all their possibilities, and not overlook one of them just because if he did so, then there would be no book. To write a story on a failing of reasoning is, I think, very poor.
Reminds me of Lawhead and his Dragon-King saga. The only books I read from him (everybody told me he was so great), and they've been so far the greatest obstacle to my buying his Pendragon cycle. It's that he invents a mighty god that saves the heroes whenever they don't have a chance, for no other reason, it seems, than the writer having lost any ideas. If the God is available to do it those times, why can't he solve others in the end of the book ? Why is the God powerful sometimes and not others ? Writers need to be very careful with this unruled points, or they risk to create strong holes in the line.
Sorry for the length, sorry for the rant, sorry for the off-topic. Consider this a meta-post on tips to write the story you're crafting.
Yours friendly,
Alex Miranda
Yes Death should not show his true power, for a lack of display allows imagination to grow beyond reality's limits. However there is only the one true Mastermind in this campaign and that will be Tavelia's husband.
However the apparent advantage will shift in time as Death reveals he has known more than he has allowed others to think he does. There a multiple players in this story and each must have their own character and originality as the layers of deciet and conspiracy are revealed. So let us go over the list once more:
Tavelia & Unknown Lover
Azalin
Baron Balitor
Lady Kazandra
Death and The Horsemen
Kargat seperatists
Azalin's clones and people with his power/essence
Fraternity of Shadows
How do they all connect?
Azalin Loyalists, those who seek to return him to power -> Lady Kazandra, Baron Balitor, Kargat
Those who seek his power for their own -> Tavelia & Unknown Lover
Azalin's clones and people with his power/essence
Fraternity of Shadows
Parties who wish to stop his rebirth -> Death and The Horsemen
Now this campaign will take place somewhere in the 5 years it takes Azalin to return to the Throne. Hence there should be plenty of time for players to explore the core and do what must be done.
Also let us not forget the Azalin while trapped in the fabric of Darkon can hear the Dark Powers (or so he believes) so perhaps we can use this or an advantage.
Just to begin with, I can't draw, and I admire anyone that can make even a portrait.
Thanks, i think.
So, please, don't be sad with what I'm going to say next: it's just that your Azalin seems too human for me, and besides, with emotion in his face. It looks definitely sad, perhaps disheartened, a bit mad.
It's what I thimk Azalin looks when he is cloaked in illusions.
It would be ok if we were talking of Denethor (Lord of the Rings), for instance (minus the crown), but I don't think it is a good Azalin. Sorry, just trying to be constructive.
Thanks anyway
In my POV, Azalin should be cold, emaciated, clearly dead, and if he showed any emotions, those would have to be anger and contempt.
Just my two cents (what's the origin of this expression, btw?).
It was a pic I showed to my players when they had an audience with Azalin after Death Undaunted... I admit that it doesn't show the coldness I intended.
Midir
(btw did you take a look at my other pics?)
W.C.
Having said that, I didn't mean to say that it would be revealed at all during the course of the adventure that Death is an avatar of the Dark Powers - only that we should keep that in mind since he is one of the main characters here. Death - like many things in Ravenloft - should always be surrounded in mystery.
Time travel I think, yes, would be too complicated, and unnecessary. If Death is, in fact, a god, he doesn't need time travel. He didn't walk up to Strahd and say 'Sign this.' As a deity, it would be more subtle.
The struggle here is between Death and Azalin. If I am right on the deity thing, this creature I think has been trapped, like a Darklord, within the mists, long before it 'met' Strahd. I think that this is the same creature mentioned in one paragraph in the Planescape Guide to the Ethereal Plane - described as an evil god that was banished by other deities and imprisoned in the ethereal plane. Not much is mentioned, for the sake of mystery.
The mystery must always be kept - that is why I was hesitant to bring up this Death theory. If this adventure is going to be designed here, on the board though, then we must be able to go behind the scenes - where most gamers were not meant to tread.
I fear I may have thrown everyone off, here.
"In my POV, Azalin should be cold, emaciated, clearly dead, and if he showed any emotions, those would have to be anger and contempt."
I disagree with the first point. I always picture Azalin with the magic that he uses in KING OF THE DEAD in place, making him appear mortal. As for the emotion thing . . . Well, I'd have to agree with you on that.
Jeff Davis
www.jeffreyadavis.tk
But none of this is important to the actual adventure.
Especially since Death becomes MUCH more interesting if it's simply the tattered remnants of a mere human, trying to convince itself that it's one of the primal forces of the universe- And knowing, deep down, that it's just not true.
Originally posted by Sylvain
Death is clearly stated in Requiem as being 'not a Darklord'.
Death became a darklord in the wake of Azalin's return.
Originally posted by Sylvain
Death is clearly stated in Requiem as being 'not a Darklord.'
He wasn't then. He is now. It's called 'change', and it happens over 'time'.
Originally posted by Sylvain
Also; the golden infant skull must have something to do with Death’s origins - the golden coffin.
The golden infant's skull is the original form of Azalin's phylactery. See King of the Dead, and I think it's mentioned in Gaz II.
I mean it doesn't exactly say the skull is gold in Gaz 2 (though it can be seen as implied considering a normal skull would be to easy to destroy). But I thought the simularities were too close not to be connected.
So somehow Death has gotten hold of Azalin's old phylactery. Who here has a copy of the 'King of the Dead'? What does it say about how Azalin stored the skull?
Originally posted by Coan
I knew it!
I mean it doesn't exactly say the skull is gold in Gaz 2 (though it can be seen as implied considering a normal skull would be to easy to destroy). But I thought the simularities were too close not to be connected.
I can't see how gold is more resistant than bone.
Here's my guess, Death is looking for the previous philactery around the land, hoping that it may allow it to control Azalin. Baron Balitor somehow destroys the skull.
Now that I think of it, as the time between departure and return is so large, maybe DU can be divided in many parts, as the PC's confornt each plot vs Azzy.
Not in order:
1)The Horsemen looking for the skull.
2)Tavelia and her bid to power.
3)Dreams and Azzy's return.
Now some doubts:
¿Are any of the "demilords" (besides Death) intented to appear?
¿Does Tavelia's lover appear in the Gaz?
¿Could he be the GC?
Originally posted by tryst_91
if nightmares are involved what about the possiblity of the nightmare court being involved somehow...?
Nightmare court
Azalin
Death
Horsemen
Tavelia &husband
Kazandra
Balitor
Kargat
Fraternity of Shadows
Strahd...
Hmmm... a pretty big reunion here. Wonder how they will find a way to fit them in a single adventure story... Maybe throwing the Player Characters out of the script will clear some space, don't you think?;)
tryst
My previous though was to have the players enter Il Aluk to retrieve Azalin’s phylactery, but since his new one doesn’t match with the old this is unlikely. Death can keep that one for future plans, or perhaps it is used as a magic focus through which Death can steal Azalin’s power.
Horsemen kill people with Azalin’s essence and absorb it, then Death retrieves it from them with the aid of the skull. Tricking the teeny non-self aware bit of Azalin into ‘going home’ to the skull then consuming it.
So anyhoo, the players still might go into the city of Necropolis to try to steal the skull away and thus stop or delay Death’s schemes while the Soul Focus is being constructed. Or perhaps they might need to get a small piece of the Doomsday device to use in the Soul Focus.
The players might also enter to find a way to stop or at least keep the horsemen at bay. Find a weakness or something.
The horsemen should really be forces of nature, not easily killed they should inspire fear in the players. High damage resistance or regeneration. I picture them like the horseman in the Burton Sleepy Hollow movie. They can beat on it but all they do is slow it down while they escape. Killing it is impossible.
Finding out who they were or how Death makes/controls them might allow them to find a weakness and hurt them.
This could bring Balitor in. If he was the Baron of Il Aluk he would know the city very well and might be the only living (and thus trustworthy) individual to be able to act as guide. He and an undead member of the Kargat could yank the lease of the players through the city and do some small gathering trips. Perhaps the Kargat could supply items to protect the players –for a time- from the effects of the Shroud.
There they could witness Death taking Azalin energy from the Horsemen or juicing them up for later conflicts. They should get the impression that this is a bad man and needs to be stopped, even if it puts Azalin back in power.
That’s always been the problem of the adventure with me, how to convince good heroes to resurrect a Darklord. By placing Death as an even bigger threat this can be accomplished. People live normal lived all the time under Azalin, but they should be threatened, leaderless, and oppressed without him.
Perhaps play up the chaos in the land before the real story begins. I think Domains of Dread had information on other ‘demilords’ or important figures of power in Darkon/Necropolis. There should be fear of invasion, power struggles, people starving, and worse.
Top it off with the fact that if Death absorbs all the might of Azalin, or even part of it, he can maybe use it to enlarge the Shroud, killing hundreds, if not millions. Perhaps his plan is to enshroud the entire Domain.
Plus if one of the PCs has a chunk of Azalin in his head this also acts as a motivator to get it out before darkness or insanity follows.
As for Tavelia (who’s lover in my mind is the GC), it might be better if she waited to change sides. A last minute betrayal as it were. She might wait for all the loyal Kargat to assemble the Soul Focus then suddenly betray everyone. This keeps the bad guys in the main adventure down to a bearable minimum (the horsemen/death., possible demilords, or crazy people with parts of Azalin’s soul).
Her betrayal might be the more climactic moment. She betrays the Kargat killing many in the process (poison perhaps?) while the Horsemen make a renewed charge. Perhaps if the place is guarded from the Horsemen (a chemical bane around the foundation?) she could break the circle allowing them in and letting them slaughter everyone in sight.
So while the players have to deal with the Horsemen in an epic battle (they should only have faced one or two of them at a time, facing all three should be brown-trouser time) side-by-side with the surviving Kargat while Tavelia tosses the son’s bones to the side putting herself in the middle of the Soul Focus or so (knowing if she has the full powers of Azalin she can deal with whatever survivors there are).
Death and the rest know this is the good moment to strike as Azalin has no phylactery (child’s skull is in Necropolis and he probably hasn’t constructed the dragon’s skull yet), and if he is reborn in either Tavelia or a new form he is killable once and for all. Death may want Azalin’s power but he wants him dead more.
Death is not powered or kept alive by the Shroud. Unless there's a direct reference to this in Gaz 2.
I base this on the fact that Death existed just fine before the Shroud, when it was born in Nartok and then when it followed and served Azalin briefly before the Doomsday Device was activated.
Perhaps the Dark Powers have changed the nature of Death since it became a Darklord, and now it indeed cannot exist outside the Shroud; but otherwise, I don't see why it would expire if it left the field.
I think between Azalin and Death, Death should clearly be portrayed as the bigger adversary. I don't know if it's changed in 3rd edition, but in 2nd edition, as king, most people believed that Azalin was human. - A horribly evil ancient wizard, yes, but human.
With the Requiem, the capitol of Darkon was not only destroyed, but horribly resurrected; confirming the citizens worst prophetic fears. Azalin's return might seem to be a blessing to some of the poor folk of Darkon. At least with his magic, he might be capable of fighting off this 'Death' - returning things to 'normal'.
Originally posted by The_Jester
Azalin has no phylactery (child’s skull is in Necropolis and he probably hasn’t constructed the dragon’s skull yet)
Maybe I missed something, but last time I checked, Azalin's phylactery was unaffected by the Requiem, and was where he left it in Avernus.
Likewise, he only has the same phylactery he always had - a Medium-size dragon skull of gold. That it in Gaz II about it being an infant's skull before coming to Ravenloft is an omission - it should say that the skull's size was that of a human infant. That makes it mesh perfectly with everything we've seen and heard to date.
I think I read elsewhere on this thread (or mis-read andassumed) that his old phylactery was a golden infant's skull, which is/was held by Death. While his new/current one is the dragon skull.
Looks like I have some researching to do. *sigh*
I suppose sending players to Avernus might be useless, especially when there are more trustworthy people to send (ie the Kargat).
While there I'll check Domains of Dread and see what it says bout Death. We know he could walk around easily before the Requiem, however after is a very different matter. I can really see the Shroud effecting him. Plus it is his centre of power so he might be unwilling to leave it.
Logically though we also know he cannot be physically involved in the final battle one way or another because he would be out of Necropolis when Azalin returned and it became his own tiny Domain. If he was off somewhere else he wouldn't be there to take it.
Hey, here's a thought: I already suggested that Death could be stealing bits of Azalin's essence through the Horsemen. What if at the same time he's slowly stealing bit-by-bit Azalin's Darklord-hood. When he absorbs the first few mouthfuls of Lich-soul is when he gets his own Domain (aka Necropolis). So even if Death isn't limited by the Shroud after Requiem he would be during the adventure necesitating the Horsemen even more.
This adds extra motivation to Death. He may not of realized what he was doing siphoning Azalin's connection and accidently trapped himself in the Domain, so now he's panicy and growing urgent to expand his power while he can before he gets trapped with the smallest of Core Domains.
"I was never a huge Azalin fan in 2E and lack From the Shadows for reference.
I think I read elsewhere on this thread (or mis-read andassumed) that his old phylactery was a golden infant's skull, which is/was held by Death. While his new/current one is the dragon skull."
I do believe the infant skull Phylactery appeared in the novel " king of the Dead" by Gene De Weese. The Phylactery was a golden Dragon skull in the module " from the shadows". It became a Dragon skull from a Human skull when Azalin earned the land of Darkon (when Firan Zal'honan defeated Darcalus ).
Originally posted by midnight-cat
I do believe the infant skull Phylactery appeared in the novel " king of the Dead" by Gene De Weese.
Yes, this was confirmed by JWM a few posts up.
W.C.
Originally posted by The Midir
William Cairnstone wrote:
Just to begin with, I can't draw, and I admire anyone that can make even a portrait.
Thanks, i think.
Yes, it was a compliment. I admire people who can draw because it seems so unfathomably difficult to me :-)
Originally posted by The Midir
It was a pic I showed to my players when they had an audience with Azalin after Death Undaunted... I admit that it doesn't show the coldness I intended.
[/b]
Oh, don't be sad about it. It's still a god pic! :-) I hope I haven't let you down.
Originally posted by The Midir
(btw did you take a look at my other pics?)
[/b]
Erm... no, sorry. I don't understand German so I couldn't quite navigate through your site. I did see some pictures that seemed computer made and I completely liked their feeling, though. I think background colours are very well used and give a good efect of mystery and eerieness.
W.C.
Yes, I forgot that my brothers site is in german...
Here is the direct Link to the newest page of my Gallery there:
http://spiders.ironsource.org/spiders/index.php?action=art;page=6
Originally posted by The Midir
To William Cairnstone:
Yes, I forgot that my brothers site is in german...
Here is the direct Link to the newest page of my Gallery there:
http://spiders.ironsource.org/spiders/index.php?action=art;page=6
Very nice artwork! I'm especially gratified to see the Quelshar, Yath, and El Koth illustrations, since I contributed the Hazlani precursor races to Gaz. 1. My personal El Koth design is a bit nastier though.
I'd be interested to hear the stories behind some of the other Ravenloft art in your gallery. Naturally, I recognized some of them, but others are unfamiliar to me.
Good job. Kudos!
Chris Nichols
Originally posted by CNichols
. My personal El Koth design is a bit nastier though.
Can we see it?
Lucifer Abaddon
www.nevoasderavenloft.hpg.com.br (temporary page)
Originally posted by midnight-cat
the Jester wrpte:
"I was never a huge Azalin fan in 2E and lack From the Shadows for reference.
I think I read elsewhere on this thread (or mis-read andassumed) that his old phylactery was a golden infant's skull, which is/was held by Death. While his new/current one is the dragon skull."
I do believe the infant skull Phylactery appeared in the novel " king of the Dead" by Gene De Weese. The Phylactery was a golden Dragon skull in the module " from the shadows". It became a Dragon skull from a Human skull when Azalin earned the land of Darkon (when Firan Zal'honan defeated Darcalus ).
Originally posted by William Cairnstone
Yes, this was confirmed by JWM a few posts up.
JWM was wrong on that count then. Azalin's phylactery has never been anything but what it is now.
The earliest descriptions of Azalin (in I10: The House on Gryphon Hill and the Realm of Terror boxed set) don't describe his phylactery at all.
AFAIK, the first time it's ever described was in From the Shadows, as a golden dragon skull that was tiny before it came to Ravenloft.
Likewise, Gene De Weese's novel King of the Dead never holds that it was anything but a dragon skull also. From page 197 of his novel
"On the silken cover of the bed, next to his right hand, lay a tiny golden skull of a horned dragon."
And from page 267:
"Like a glittering could, the skull took shape, growing more ominous by the second.
Finally, the motes took shape and fused into a massive whole.
Hundreds of times the size of the original skull that Firan Zal'honan, long ago on Oerth and then in Barovia, had worn on a chain around his neck, it rested imperiously on the pedestal. The horns, bare fractions of an inch before, were curving, foot-long daggers. The almost invisible depressions in the top of the skull were now deep, graceful indentations.
And in the mouth, flickering behind teeth whose living counterparts could rip a man to shreds, burned a flickering light that could never be extinguished, a light that cast a baleful glow on the paintings and carvings that stretched completely around the room."
There has never been an infant skull phylactery. This is a rumor that sprung up due to a mistake in Gaz II; the sentence on page 137 that reads:
"The phylactery's mass is a bitter reminder to Azalin of his limited mobility; before he became a darklord, the skull was that of a newborn human infant."
Should instead read: "The phylactery's mass is a bitter reminder to Azalin of his limited mobility; before he became a darklord, the size of the skull was that of a newborn human infant."
Or something to that effect (such as "the skull's size" etc.)
(As a trivia note, page 15 of Roots of Evil mentions that a dispel magic returns the skull to its original size. This takes two rounds. It doesn't say how long this lasts, though its obviously impermanent. This was likely added so PCs could transport the thing around during the course of the adventure.)
And that about wraps up that chapter.
Originally posted by Alzrius
JWM was wrong on that count then. Azalin's phylactery has never been anything but what it is now.
[...]
AFAIK, the first time it's ever described was in From the Shadows, as a golden dragon skull that was tiny before it came to Ravenloft.
[...]
There has never been an infant skull phylactery. And that about wraps up that chapter.
No. You've misread.
FtS pg. 51, the first description of his phylactery ever:
"His phylactery is displayed prominently [in a mural] as a gold-plated, shrunken skull on a chain around his neck. [After he becomes a darklord, the] skull is shown being altered magically to become a huge dragon skull, matching the one on the pedestal."
"As stated earlier, it was altered magically from an ordinary skull into this massive, almost immoveable dragon skull."
It's true that DeWeese later made it a small dragon skull; he also took other liberties which, in some cases, I chose not to use. (In some cases, those liberties didn't really work in the greater continuity, the most prominent being having Azalin's magic frozen as soon as he enters Ravenloft.)
I carried the "shrunken," "ordinary" skull idea one step to specifically call it an infant's skull. This was intended as a symbol of the loss of innocence. The planned cover of DU, specifically, was a visual inspired by a moment in The Company of Wolves.
Sorry, Alzrius. You're wrong.
This changes things a tad. The heroes all but have to enter the city of Necropolis and steal the skull and/or return it to dragon-skull size. If Azzie has it at the end of GazII he must get it returned sometime during DU.
And one time clarification, DU doesn't take place over five years but two.
It mentions (aka hints) that it took over three years for Azzie to get himelf together enough to send the Drowning Dreams. It can be led up to before that but the big things start to kick in the year 753.
Originally posted by The_Jester
So it was an infant's skull and Death does have it?
Note that, as with most Ravenloft adventures, the cover image is simply intended to be evocative, rather than necessarily being a specific moment from the narrative.
Chris Nichols
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
No. You've misread.
FtS pg. 51, the first description of his phylactery ever:
"His phylactery is displayed prominently [in a mural] as a gold-plated, shrunken skull on a chain around his neck. [After he becomes a darklord, the] skull is shown being altered magically to become a huge dragon skull, matching the one on the pedestal."
"As stated earlier, it was altered magically from an ordinary skull into this massive, almost immoveable dragon skull."
Hrm, interesting point.
I could see how it would be assumed that this meant it was a tiny dragon skull, since it could just be seen as the author conserving space (typing "the skull" instead of "the gold-plated dragon skull), especially since the first text describing the phylactery at all mentions it in detail.
On the other hand, saying it was an "ordinary skull" which became a "dragon skull" would seem to indicate that it was a human skull to begin with, since mentioning specific qualities after saying it used to be ordinary would seem to be calling out exactly what changed.
If only Bruce Nesmith would post on this thread to make it all perfectly clear!
It's true that DeWeese later made it a small dragon skull; he also took other liberties which, in some cases, I chose not to use. (In some cases, those liberties didn't really work in the greater continuity, the most prominent being having Azalin's magic frozen as soon as he enters Ravenloft.)
Point. I wasn't using his work as the definitive example, I just wanted to point out that it didn't support the "infant skull" hypothesis. Most Azalin die-hards know that book has quite a few little points that don't mesh.
Sorry, Alzrius. You're wrong.
Well, in the strictest sense, I still see room for debate, under the first explanatory paragraph I wrote above...but I'm willing to admit that you have the stronger case.
Originally posted by Lucifer_Abaddon_RL
Fantastic artwork Midir!
Can we see it?
Lucifer Abaddon
Probably not, since I don't have a scanner at the moment.
On the other hand, if you ask really nicely, I might see my way to posting a highly unofficial MM entry for them in a day or two.
Chris Nichols
Originally posted by CNichols
Probably not, since I don't have a scanner at the moment.
On the other hand, if you ask really nicely, I might see my way to posting a highly unofficial MM entry for them in a day or two.
Chris Nichols
Please!
Originally posted by CNichols
Probably not, since I don't have a scanner at the moment.
On the other hand, if you ask really nicely, I might see my way to posting a highly unofficial MM entry for them in a day or two.
Chris Nichols
Pretty, pretty pleeasee.
Thanks! I'm flattered.
I'm interested in your original El'koth Design to see the differences.
Here are descriptions of a few of my Ravenloft pics:
Coline Frost: a medium/psion from Paridon
Cursed Artifacts: a matched pair of cursed scarabs, inspired by Poltergeist the Leagacy
Dark Cloud: Dark cloud over Crimson Tides, a corrupted Pan Lung dragon masquerading as a samurai in Rokoshima Tayio.
Durumm: early race from Hazlan
Germain of the Crossroads: a guardian seeker from Darkon, inspired by a certain watcher from Buffy
Huldrow: Lesser Breed of the Arak, for my Arak article for the Book of S
Inza: Darklord of Sithicus, i picture her more like the dark Queen of Krynn.
Landurian: friend's character, half-elf ranger
Pale Uneveneyes: my character, elf sorceress
Papa Muerte: voodan sorcerer from Sourange
Portius Redire: friend's character, half-elf ,priest of Paladine/mage/Fighter
Rosara: half-vistani sorceress
Talamasa: evil bloodwitch, inspired by certain witch from Buffy
Tavelia: you know
Thakok An: my take of Kalidnay's darklord
The eisenmann: inventor/crimefighter from Paridon
Thorin: friend's character, human , Fighter/ Knight of the shadows
Vilay: Lesser Breed of the Arak
William Blackmoore: Kargat werwolf/bard, cursed to be good, inspired by a certain vampire from Buffy
John has stated that he isn't likely to be producing many more works in our favorite setting, and he has strongly intimated (Did he ever actually say for sure?) that we won't see Death Undaunted in this lifetime. He also seems be getting less and less enjoyment out of reading people's suppositions. It is admittedly difficult for most of us common folk to retain the amount of knowledge he has stated as necessary to be "informed." I know I have read everything short of the new Player's Handbook, but he could (and has) very easily find numerous gaps in my knowledge.
So Death Undaunted would have had one benefit over anyone else's explanation of how Azalin returned: It would have meshed very, very well with the canon material. But in the end, no matter how well it meshed, it would have been every bit as non-canonical as mine or yours or anyone else's. The main difference is that the author is considered to be well-written and is regarded in high esteem by many community members.
That said, John's Death Undaunted is little different from anyone else's version of these events. When someone has an adventure in which others may share an interest, that person sometimes posts a summary of the plot. In most cases, that would be all that is shared, and I think right now that's all anybody wants of Death Undaunted.
So, going out on a limb here, because I don't recall anyone actually asking this in the last (how many?) few years: John, would you give us a summary of what you had intended to be in Death Undaunted? You've obviously got a captive audience. From the dozens who have actively clamored to the many more who have waited quietly and wished it would live or die but cease its lingering demise. The floor is most definitely all yours.
A few paragraphs of what would have been. Some folks will call it canon. Others will read and enjoy. Some will disagree whole-heartedly. Some won't care at all. But you know of a host of folks who would hinge on every word. Stop the madness, man!
Originally posted by Chaderick
He also seems be getting less and less enjoyment out of reading people's suppositions. It is admittedly difficult for most of us common folk to retain the amount of knowledge he has stated as necessary to be "informed."
No.
Suppositions about things behind the scenes, i.e., non-publicized real-world events and motivations.
I have little patience for these claims because they A) usually reveal petty grudges on behalf the person making the claim, which is disheartening to see echoed over and over again, and B) are always, always, ALWAYS wrong.
http://www.clydecaldwell.com/large_images/midnight_snack.html
Chris Nichols
So does she appear in any other products? I know she a nos vamp who founded a religion and tunred the Kargat in her town into thieves, but has she been detailed fully or always only cameo-ed?
And do you think she escapes in the end? And what exactly does the GC tell her?
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
I have little patience for these claims because they A) usually reveal petty grudges on behalf the person making the claim, which is disheartening to see echoed over and over again, and B) are always, always, ALWAYS wrong.
I KNEW it, he IS on drugs!
Originally posted by The_Jester
I KNEW it, he IS on drugs!
What I'm about to say isn't a flame. I just want to say that finding out about this slander has really, deeply gotten under my skin. Frankly, the thought that people I've never met and whose names I don't know are spreading rumors like that about me completely skeeves me out. I don't find it amusing at all, in any way, not least because I've been explaining what really knocked DU off schedule for at least two years and counting now.
Now, if you weren't intending to irritate me, then no reply or apology is necessary. But for now on please keep in mind that repeating this drug accusation will rile me, and I am utterly humorless on this issue. I'm not saying to drop it; I'm simply advising that people consider the reaction they want.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
I don't find it amusing at all, in any way, not least because I've been explaining what really knocked DU off schedule for at least two years and counting now.
I vaguely recall, from over on the Kargatane boards, something said to the effect of "It was delayed by White Wolf buying Ravenloft, and then because I had other projects to do that would pay the bills." That was it, right?
I don't presume to talk for everyone of the ravenloftians, but i just wanted to let you know that just because some of the community can't deal with the DU not being released that it isn't the end of the world and we still appreciate the work. I started this thread to get the possible status on the product, i did not intend it to be used to slander you or anyone else. Anyway i just wanted to put my 2cents into it.
Originally posted by Alzrius
I vaguely recall, from over on the Kargatane boards, something said to the effect of "It was delayed by White Wolf buying Ravenloft, and then because I had other projects to do that would pay the bills." That was it, right?
That was it.
I can sum up why nothing got done on DU for so long in 36 words:
"Ravenloft Campaign Setting, Secrets of the Dread Realms, Denizens of Darkness, Van Richten's Arsenal, the Ravenloft Gazetteer series, Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead, Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide, and every other book I worked on."
Heck, *I'd* host the sketches if I had copies, and it was okay with you-- I think I have enough space on my website...
ANYHOO, Tavelia. Repeating myself, but my fault this time we're off topic. Again.
She's listed in the SotK as appearing in the Bleak House box. Is that the only product other than the quick line in GazII that she's a nosferatu 9th level something?
I'll flip through that and get back to ya later after my penance with the flail. ;)
Originally posted by Brandi
John, have you ever given thought to finding space to host what there is of DU the way the old Kargatane board hosted your neat unused chapter-header sketches for RCS?
I'm one of those authors that doesn't like showing unfinished work. That said, I've given Andrew Bator (daffy, the NWN guy) all my DU maps with basic descriptions, so y'all might get to run around in the Cosmopolis Club sooner than later.
Originally posted by Brandi
Heck, *I'd* host the sketches if I had copies, and it was okay with you-- I think I have enough space on my website...
I might as well store them in the files for my krlc yahoogroups mailing list; while I'm working to get the campaign running again, I'm just using it to mule files back and forth from my computer art classes. For anyone who's interested, if you go to krlc > Files > Ignore Me > kobold2.swf, you can see my first Flash animation. Consider it a bonus for anyone who remembers my sketchbook drawings of Ahl-Bahd and Montague Haull.
Originally posted by The_Jester
ANYHOO, Tavelia. Repeating myself, but my fault this time we're off topic. Again.
She's listed in the SotK as appearing in the Bleak House box. Is that the only product other than the quick line in GazII that she's a nosferatu 9th level something?
In Bleak House she's basically an off-the-rack mature vampire. For 3E, I made her a mature nosferatu Exp9.
Tell you what, though. For now, here's the table of contents which will, if anything, further stoke speculation:
Introduction
For the Dungeon Master
What Has Gone Before
Adventure Synopsis
Dramatis Personae
The Drowning Dreams
Prologue
Scene One: Enter the Heroes
Scene Two: The Doom Prophet
Scene Three: Silent Sentinels
Act I: Into the Land of the Dead
Scene Four: The Shrouded Realm
Scene Five: Enter Famine
Scene Six: Friends and Foes
Scene Seven: No Escape
Act II: Better to be Loved
Scene Eight: Martira Bay
Scene Nine: The Overseer
Scene Ten: The Cosmopolis Club
Scene Eleven: Enter War
Scene Twelve: Tavelia’s Crypt
Scene Thirteen: Dead Man’s Chest
Scene Fourteen: Where All Roads Lead
Act III: Castle Avernus
Scene Fifteen: A Desperate Chase
Scene Sixteen: Enter Pestilence
Scene Seventeen: At the Gates
Scene Eighteen: Within the Keep
Scene Nineteen: The Throne Regained
Scene Twenty: Denouement
Epilogue
Death Victorious
Tavelia Victorious
The Heroes Victorious
Once and Future King
Sorry :embarrass (another one of those useless messages).
W.C.
This is more than I was hoping for.
Originally posted by William Cairnstone
This is completely off-topic, be warned, but I just can't help, everytime I look at John's icon, to think of the lead singer of the Bee-Gees. It's that it looks almost like him! :D
Sorry :embarrass (another one of those useless messages).
*snrrk* Yeah, but I don't think Barry Gibb has fangs.
IIRC, that's from the cover of Feast of Goblyns. I think it's Dr. Dominani as Harkon would be dressed much flashier.
Originally posted by CNichols
For those interested, Tavelia The following Clyde Caldwell art was used for her portrait.
This is Great Chris. Now we have her portrait for when she vamps out in the RL NWN game. *Smiles.
I had been searching for information on this adventure for about three weeks when suddenly I'm told that the author is right here. As I said before, it's been like meeting a celebrity, and I think that Death Undaunted would be truly epic. The fourth in the 'Death' trilogy. I think it's a necessary - an essential, piece of the puzzle. It's an honor to speak with you. And each of you.
Originally posted by Brandi
*snrrk* Yeah, but I don't think Barry Gibb has fangs.
IIRC, that's from the cover of Feast of Goblyns. I think it's Dr. Dominani as Harkon would be dressed much flashier.
The picture was used in the spellfire card game to represent harkon lucas.
Not that your wrong since a lot of the spellfire cards were pretty ridiculous, I remember a dragonlance drow psionist card which was pretty funny since niether psionists nor drow exits on krynn.
And the knights of solomnia card had a picture of steel brightblade and his blue dragon on it
So picture the final battle as I envisioned it ealier, with the Horsemen coming as a group while the heores and Kargat might a stand to hold them of till Azalin returns, only to have Tavelia prepare to absorb Azalin's essance and power for herself.
Tavelia has been a problem for Azzie for a while now. As mentiond in Bleak House, and the five years since she has just been amassing powr. Heck, she was cementing her position for 100 years before Bleak House judging from the description.
It has repeatedly been questioned why Azalin keeps her around, especially if he can know so much and if he spent three years as a part of every living thing.
What if he needs her, what if he knows she's crooked and will betray him and he's counting on it.
His soul gets focused from the people its in (the one's I've nicked Dreamers) and enters into his son's bones. But there's no connection to the negative material plane, no spark of unlike to animate the corpse.
Until Tavelia steps in. She tries to steal the power only to suddenly be overwhealmed by Azalin as he leaches her strength away. She crumples weakly to the floor (barely still un-alive) as Azalin is restored.
I do worry about the lack of Death in the final act. He is the Big Bad of the main adventure and he isn't really confronted. Normally I avoid fights with Darklords but for an epic of this magnatude there should be some confrontation.
What if Death creates an avatar of himself that can leave the Shroud and ride with the other Horsemen and plans to use that to kill Azalin. It would be a lesser Death but still of great power. So after Azalin returns he deals with the Horsemen while the heroes have their boss battle climax. Death loses his avatar and his horsemen, both of which he put much power into, which explains why he no longer has the power to control all the dead in Necropolis come Gaz2.
Thoughts on either idea?
Besides, don't forget you can use a little something called a "cut scene".
Originally posted by William Cairnstone
This is completely off-topic, be warned, but I just can't help, everytime I look at John's icon, to think of the lead singer of the Bee-Gees. It's that it looks almost like him! :D
Originally posted by Brandi
*snrrk* Yeah, but I don't think Barry Gibb has fangs.
IIRC, that's from the cover of Feast of Goblyns.
Correct. What's more, I believe Clyde Caldwell said it was a self-portrait.
Ergo, singers and artists look alike if you put fangs on them.
Lon Chaney, Jr. : You don't understand. Every night when the moon is full, I turn into a wolf.
Lou Costello : You and twenty million other guys!
Amazon.com
· Paperback
· Publisher: Wizards of the Coast; (February 1999)
· ASIN: 078691338X
· Average Customer Review: 3½ stars out of 5 Based on 2 reviews.
· Amazon.com Sales Rank: 1,536,712
Death Undaunted
by TSR Inc. Staff
ISBN: 0-7869-1338-X / 078691338X
Title: Death Undaunted
Author: TSR Inc. Staff
Publisher: Wizards of the Coast
Edition: Hardcover
ISBN: 078691338X Title: Death Undaunted Author: TSR Inc. Staff Publisher: Wizards of the Coast Edition: Hardcover
I had a guess that maybe someone was trying to scam people online, but that actually seems a bit unlikely. Perhaps this is a different title? Anyone have any thoughts?
If that's so (and its the only thing I can think of) then they really need to go in and clear up their archives. The reviews at amazon.com seem to be trying, somewhat, to let people know what the case is, but they aren't being very clear...possibly because they're old reviews.
For people who want to check out what the fuss is about, here are the links in question:
Amazon.com
BookFinder.com
AddALL.com
One point to note is that different places list this as being, alternately, a hardcover and a paperback release - we know this can;t be right because adventures don't get simultaneous releases in multiple formats. There's just no reason for doing so. In fact, very few RPG books have ever been released in multiple cover formats like that - the few exceptions that exist are usually when the book is re-released later with a newer cover.
Of course, the real kicker here is the ISBN #. Looking for more info on that, I used a web-ISBN database, looking up the range of numbers into which that number should appear. Here are the results: http://my.linkbaton.com/isbn/0786913371--0786915749 which, as you can see, do not contain any such product.
I want to see a print DU as much as the next RL fan, but some people apparently want it so bad that they don't mind if their websites say it was released already. ;)
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Look, it's possible that someday I may return to and complete this project, once I get a little distance. I haven't said much till now because I don't want to dissuade folks from using their imaginations.
Tell you what, though. For now, here's the table of contents which will, if anything, further stoke speculation:
Introduction
For the Dungeon Master
What Has Gone Before
Adventure Synopsis
Dramatis Personae
The Drowning Dreams
Prologue
Scene One: Enter the Heroes
Scene Two: The Doom Prophet
Scene Three: Silent Sentinels
Act I: Into the Land of the Dead
Scene Four: The Shrouded Realm
Scene Five: Enter Famine
Scene Six: Friends and Foes
Scene Seven: No Escape
Act II: Better to be Loved
Scene Eight: Martira Bay
Scene Nine: The Overseer
Scene Ten: The Cosmopolis Club
Scene Eleven: Enter War
Scene Twelve: Tavelia’s Crypt
Scene Thirteen: Dead Man’s Chest
Scene Fourteen: Where All Roads Lead
Act III: Castle Avernus
Scene Fifteen: A Desperate Chase
Scene Sixteen: Enter Pestilence
Scene Seventeen: At the Gates
Scene Eighteen: Within the Keep
Scene Nineteen: The Throne Regained
Scene Twenty: Denouement
Epilogue
Death Victorious
Tavelia Victorious
The Heroes Victorious
Once and Future King
I am getting the idea that the four horsemen of the apocalypse are going to be in this somehow. or at least mention. Death, Famine, Pestilence and there is no mention of the fourth
Originally posted by Jackie Baldrick
I am getting the idea that the four horsemen of the apocalypse are going to be in this somehow. or at least mention. Death, Famine, Pestilence and there is no mention of the fourth
Why is there no mention of the fourth? Death, Famine, Pestilence and War being the fourth. (Although Death is no horseman here).
Originally posted by Keg of Ale
According to GazII, the three Horsemen' names are Sickness, Starvation and Strife. I guess the names were changed at some moment.
The Horsemen go by several names, much like many other mythological entities. Their variant names are simply synonyms, with the "S" versions simply being a touch more poetic.
Sickness = Pestilence
Starvation = Famine
Strife = War
Originally posted by Jackie Baldrick
I am getting the idea that the four horsemen of the apocalypse are going to be in this somehow. or at least mention. Death, Famine, Pestilence and there is no mention of the fourth
ACT II, Scene Eleven
So for the Champions of Darkness thing I pulled out ye ol' copy of Children of the Night: Vampires and flipped through it. And re-stumbled over one Mulger D'Ajust. A dwarf vampire and general hench of Azzie. A former Kargat vamp too.
He's in the mountain Nirka digging up gems, he needs 13 anthodite crystals for some big mojo that Azalin had planned before he went *poof*. To use the scientific term.
So could these crystals be part of the Soul Focus to dip heavily into obscure back-history? Would be neat to tie in CotN
just for s 'n' giggles. Thoughts?If someone is REALLY motivated, if they know what years they were active, and years they escaped/ left the Kargat or were killed that would help too. Also, if they were active in a paticular place that would be very useful as well.
To give SOME focus I'm specifically interested in any who were in Darkon and active as secret police from 702BC - 715BC (or conceivably, if they are undead and no beginning date was ever given).
So far I have 3:
Lieutenant Kazandra (Rank in the early 700's)
Tavelia
General Athoul-leader of the Kargat in this era
I'm off to look up Mulger D'Ajust to see if he fit in this time period. Thanks for the heads up on that one Jester.
~Andrew
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Look, it's possible that someday I may return to and complete this project, once I get a little distance. I haven't said much till now because I don't want to dissuade folks from using their imaginations.
Tell you what, though. For now, here's the table of contents which will, if anything, further stoke speculation:
Introduction
For the Dungeon Master
What Has Gone Before
Adventure Synopsis
Dramatis Personae
The Drowning Dreams
Prologue
Scene One: Enter the Heroes
Scene Two: The Doom Prophet
Scene Three: Silent Sentinels
Act I: Into the Land of the Dead
Scene Four: The Shrouded Realm
Scene Five: Enter Famine
Scene Six: Friends and Foes
Scene Seven: No Escape
Act II: Better to be Loved
Scene Eight: Martira Bay
Scene Nine: The Overseer
Scene Ten: The Cosmopolis Club
Scene Eleven: Enter War
Scene Twelve: Tavelia’s Crypt
Scene Thirteen: Dead Man’s Chest
Scene Fourteen: Where All Roads Lead
Act III: Castle Avernus
Scene Fifteen: A Desperate Chase
Scene Sixteen: Enter Pestilence
Scene Seventeen: At the Gates
Scene Eighteen: Within the Keep
Scene Nineteen: The Throne Regained
Scene Twenty: Denouement
Epilogue
Death Victorious
Tavelia Victorious
The Heroes Victorious
Once and Future King
The table of contents is really neat. I'm going to save it.
Originally posted by daffy72
Would anyone be interested in giving me a list of ALL known Kargat and Kargatane agents?
If someone is REALLY motivated, if they know what years they were active, and years they escaped/ left the Kargat or were killed that would help too. Also, if they were active in a paticular place that would be very useful as well.
To give SOME focus I'm specifically interested in any who were in Darkon and active as secret police from 702BC - 715BC (or conceivably, if they are undead and no beginning date was ever given).
So far I have 3:
Lieutenant Kazandra (Rank in the early 700's)
Tavelia
General Athoul-leader of the Kargat in this era
I'm off to look up Mulger D'Ajust to see if he fit in this time period. Thanks for the heads up on that one Jester.
~Andrew
I remember seeing something to do with the kargatane's history somewhere. I don't remember if it had a complete list. It was on some fan site.
For those of you who didn't know (hopefully not too many of you), this has been uploaded to the Fraternity web site. Mr. Mangrum has kindly put it all together in pdf format and it is a very interesting read.
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Library.html