I've noticed recently that there are a few lurkers in this forum who come and stay for ages but don't post!
Well, you and all the others who don't post more than six times a day, time's up! Post or die!
I don't know how, but I WILL find you and come to your home and drink all your beer and pee in your shower if you don't post NOW!
Now, go and post about something relevant to Greyhawk, like a good little fanboy.
Originally posted by Delglath
I don't know how, but I WILL find you and pee in your shower if you don't post NOW!
Weirdo!
:D
Yeah, less lurking and more posting; good idea in theory...
:D
Wanna know why WotC doesn't notice GH like they do FR? It's because the FR fans are more vocal. They're more out there. The executives look and see that FR sells. And while YOU may have every GH book in existence, you need to keep discussing the world to keep it alive.
By not discussing it, you- the "alleged" fans show that you don't care about the world. That it's not worth discussing. That nothing about the GH world is interesting enough to even talk about.
So post already! :D
:whatsthis Why is a WizO agreeing with me?
Delglath thinks that maybe the world is ending...
? :88E: ?Delglath may very well be going
I do have something to say about Paradox's comment:
It's because the FR fans are more vocal.
It's easy to be more vocal if you have a new sourcebook/accessory/novel (etc) on the shelves every two weeks. You'll always have something to discuss. When's the last time we Hawkers got anything new?
Plus, the group Greyhawk players is not as big, because new players can't buy all the stuff they can for other setting (especially FR). So they are never properly introduced to Greyhawk.
The group of Greyhawk fans is turning into a small, elite group of RPG-savants it seems. Whereas the FR-crowd represents the large, ignorant masses.
(Or is that too arrogant?)
I have seen some posts claiming that the greatest thing that GH has over FR is that it DOESN'T have every square inch detailed. So the conundrum becomes, does WotC flood the world with info like FR, or keep it light to let the fans/players develop the world themselves?
(In my defense I'm all for getting more people to post. The main thrust of the thread. :D)
Originally posted by WizO_Paradox
I have seen some posts claiming that the greatest thing that GH has over FR is that it DOESN'T have every square inch detailed. So the conundrum becomes, does WotC flood the world with info like FR, or keep it light to let the fans/players develop the world themselves?
I've seen those posts too, and they frustrate me to no end for the very reason that you've identified. I prefer the Greyhawk setting, but I also have a full-time job, a wife, and kids. In short, I don't have time to make it all up on my own. While some Greyhawk fans prefer Greyhawk for being so . . . well, empty . . . it makes things harder on the rest of us. So my options are to devote time that I don't have to developing the setting, or switch to FR?
Maybe this is why there's no new Greyhawk stuff: there's no pleasing us fans.
For example,
"If you don't agree that Gygax was the best GH influence, you're stupid."
"If you think that Gygax was the best GH influence, you're stupid."
"If you don't take canon material to be the ultimate high scripture of GH, you're stupid."
"If you don't take [a specific subset of canon material] to be the ultimate high scripture of GH, you're stupid."
"If you only accept canon material as valid for GH, you're stupid."
"If you like Living Greyhawk, you're stupid."
"If you like Forgotten Realms, you're stupid."
"If you like [insert GH fan site], then you're stupid."
"If you don't like [insert GH fan site], then you're stupid."
Although the arguments are often more subtle and eloquent than these, they can sum up an awful lot of the posts here on the board. And lest anyone think I'm a hypocrite for mentioning these, yes, I have been guilty of #5 on occasion, although I try to avoid it.
Many new people only know of GH through little scraps of info, such as the LGG and snippets from the Builder books. If they come on here and post about how they created such-and-such for their particular home campaign that they wanted to set in GH, only to get blasted by some of the regulars because it offends canon, or isn't correct, or something's already been written about that part of GH, or whatever, it can seriously put off other new people from discussing their ideas.
I know several people who don't bother with this forum, the canonfire! forum or the weekly Greyhawk chat for exactly that reason -- it's just not worth the headaches to participate.
I seriously think you are taking things quite over the edge. You'll notice I very rarely take place in any of the above mentioned and I still manage about 5 posts per day.
Abyss
Originally posted by WizO_Paradox
I have seen some posts claiming that the greatest thing that GH has over FR is that it DOESN'T have every square inch detailed. So the conundrum becomes, does WotC flood the world with info like FR, or keep it light to let the fans/players develop the world themselves?
Yeah, it's a dichotomy alright and, admittedly, one that I struggle with. As a writer and as a fan of new material and seeing things change and grow and, most importantly, evolve, I like the idea of new Greyhawk stuff since it both gives me want I want as a consumer and also the opportunity to perhaps contribute as a professional writer (one day).
But then... I'd hate for Greyhawk to become like FR (look, I'm not 'bashing' it, it's just that... read on, you'll see what I mean...) with a gazillion supplements, detailing every single inch of the map.
The only thing that comforts me is that there is a 'way' to write for Greyhawk and that way is something that many GH devotees embrace, and to be a writer of Greyhawk material, you really have to be devoted to the setting.
This 'way' I'm referring to was made known to me through chatting in the Greytalk room. Essentially, Gygax managed it through a simplicity of form and style which allowed a great deal of information to be conveyed in a short amount of space and still left much room for extrapolation, change and evolvement. Whether he did this on purpose or by accident is up for debate, but the fact is, it was done and became an integral part of what made Greyhawk what it is today.
The other method is what Carl Sargent perfected. That is, to close one door, one must always open at least one or two more. This is a much more complex way of doing things and takes a certain creative genius to accomplish as it requires a great deal of thought and planning before execution. Essentially what Carl managed to do, was close down a lot of the plot possibilities that Gary had left open, which he had to do to advance the timeline of the world, whilst opening many, many, many more possibilities.
Some writers in between these two didn't manage to accomplish the same basic premise, which is to allow the DM creative freedom whilst working from a solid base. It is these supplements, perhaps unsurprisingly, which are the most common to recieve disdain and a lack of praise.
I believe many of the articles in the LGJ, as well as the current sourcebook that brought the setting up to date: the LGG, for the most part manage this feat with some success.
Therefore I believe it is this style or 'feel' that is inherent to Greyhawk and seperates it from other settings. With Forgotten Realms material, I feel as if there are no plot-threads or possibilities for me to develop because everything is neatly tied up, with no loose ends or dangly-bits. New FR material closes most of the doors before it and leaves very few open to explore. And given the complexity of the material produced, cannot hope to imitate the simplicity of style of Gygax material.
Wow... talk about a stream of consciousness...
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
Maybe this is why there's no new Greyhawk stuff: there's no pleasing us fans.
Yeah, we're a very diverse bunch that can't agree on much, except that we all like Greyhawk, and even then we get into debates about WHAT Greyhawk actually is
Originally posted by Steve_MND
"If you don't agree that Gygax was the best GH influence, you're stupid."
"If you think that Gygax was the best GH influence, you're stupid."
"If you don't take canon material to be the ultimate high scripture of GH, you're stupid."
"If you don't take [a specific subset of canon material] to be the ultimate high scripture of GH, you're stupid."
"If you only accept canon material as valid for GH, you're stupid."
"If you like Living Greyhawk, you're stupid."
"If you like Forgotten Realms, you're stupid."
"If you like [insert GH fan site], then you're stupid."
"If you don't like [insert GH fan site], then you're stupid."
Yeah, loads of stupid people post here :P
Originally posted by Steve_MND
I know several people who don't bother with this forum, the canonfire! forum or the weekly Greyhawk chat for exactly that reason -- it's just not worth the headaches to participate.
Most of those people I wouldn't bother... well, we won't go there, suffice to say that Gene and his ilk are best left in forums where they're appreciated and given lee-way to flame as they feel fit. You can have them, I can tell you right now that Greytalk, in all it's diverse and raging nuthouse glory, doesn't want them.
At the end of the day, there may very well be people in Greytalk that don't tolerate much and give lots, but they're all passionate about Greyhawk and willing to discuss (or argue) it, even with people they don't like. I for one am very well known to despise Samwise, but I'd defer to him in an instant on any matter involving Keoland, since I know he's an expert on that part of Greyhawk, and I'll listen willingly to whatever he has to say on the matter, and moreover, he'll willingly help me understand the intracacies of that part of Greyhawk. The same can't be said about people from 'other' forums.
And while one of Greyhawk's advantages is that it isn't completely pre-conceived and mapped out (so to say) I think the current (non-existing) amount of new product is the other extreme and also not what we want.
Abyss
I didn't mean to imply that the only way to make a decent number of posts here was to be negative; far to the contrary. Rather, I meant that the number of negative posts here is noticeable enough to be a factor in why we don't have as many new people posting here as we could.
"Yeah, loads of stupid people post here"
Yeah, tell me about it. :P
"Most of those people I wouldn't bother... well, we won't go there, suffice to say that Gene and his ilk are best left in forums where they're appreciated and given lee-way to flame as they feel fit."
Heh, I wasn't even talking about them; I was talking about many of the casual GH gamers I know offline.
"Maybe this is why there's no new Greyhawk stuff: there's no pleasing us fans."
To paraphrase and old saying: "Greyhawk has no worse enemies than its greatest fans." :D
Originally posted by abysslin
Hey Delglath, I could point you to a forum.. a specific thread even where Gene has finally done a 180 and is infact actually using his knowledge constructively. At least that what he has claimed, and from what I have seen recently he is holding true to it.
It's a ruse. He's trying to lull y'all into a false confidence. He is the Devil I say, evil incarnate! Do not trust him with your GH soul!
Ok, seriously, if he is then good for him. It was one of my major critcisms of him, that he was beeyatching about everything and not doing anything constructive to change anything for the better. I still don't trust him though; he's been like he's been for years without one iota of change... why now?
Originally posted by WizO_Paradox
Wanna know why WotC doesn't notice GH like they do FR? It's because the FR fans are more vocal. They're more out there. The executives look and see that FR sells. And while YOU may have every GH book in existence, you need to keep discussing the world to keep it alive.
We do discuss it, on GreyTalk, as we have since 1995.
Canonfire is a bigger site (in terms of membership and content) than any other site for any other setting (only wizards.com and enworld.org are demonstrably bigger sites that are D&D specific).
The vocal fans are out there, WotC just needs to know where to look.
Originally posted by abysslin
Hey Delglath, I could point you to a forum.. a specific thread even where Gene has finally done a 180 and is infact actually using his knowledge constructively. At least that what he has claimed, and from what I have seen recently he is holding true to it.
Abyss
Easy for Gene to make that cowardly claim when his buddy Scott has banned Delglath and made it perfectly clear that Erik Mona and I (the three folks who have gone on record as vocally rebuking the utter tripe that comes out of that boy's posts) are not welcome in his forum.
Gee....
"Hey guys, now that we've gotten rid of all the people who don't agree with me, I promise not to argue anymore?"
How noble of him...
Originally posted by Greyhack
Easy for Gene to make that cowardly claim when his buddy Scott has banned Delglath and made it perfectly clear that Erik Mona and I (the three folks who have gone on record as vocally rebuking the utter tripe that comes out of that boy's posts) are not welcome in his forum.
Gee....
"Hey guys, now that we've gotten rid of all the people who don't agree with me, I promise not to argue anymore?"
How noble of him...
Actually, let me clarify, I don't think it was Scott that banned Delglath :D Anyway, I'll let Delglath elaborate if he wishes.
Originally posted by Steve_MND
Unfortunately, I suspect that one of the contributing factors to a lack of new posters is the surly attitudes and rude comments expressed by many on this board. Not necessarily COC-breaking things, but a general attitude that "if you don't agree with [insert tenant here] then you're stupid." Taken all together, it can be rather discouraging to new posters.
I honestly don't see that much of this on this forum, compared to other Greyhawk venues, this place is downright civil if you overlook a small handful of threads where harsh words got carried over from other places.
I know several people who don't bother with this forum, the canonfire! forum or the weekly Greyhawk chat for exactly that reason -- it's just not worth the headaches to participate.
Their loss. Yes, there is a lot of spirited debate at GreyTalk chat, and a lot of what may be seen as downright abusive language to a newcomer, but at the end of the night, we're all (for the most part, a few personal grudges aside) still friends.
I do beg to differ on the case of Canonfire forum however, I am the moderator for that forum, I make the rules. I've gone completely against the trend and the opinions of the rest of the staff and outlawed flaming and edition/era wars in my forum. If you want somewhere pleasant to talk about greyhawk, try this forum or canonfire's, if you're up to a little more "robust" and colorful discussion, try the greytalk discussion list or the greytalk chat.
Originally posted by Steve_MND
Unfortunately, I suspect that one of the contributing factors to a lack of new posters is the surly attitudes and rude comments expressed by many on this board. Not necessarily COC-breaking things, but a general attitude that "if you don't agree with [insert tenant here] then you're stupid." Taken all together, it can be rather discouraging to new posters.
For example,
"If you don't agree that Gygax was the best GH influence, you're stupid."
"If you think that Gygax was the best GH influence, you're stupid."
"If you don't take canon material to be the ultimate high scripture of GH, you're stupid."
"If you don't take [a specific subset of canon material] to be the ultimate high scripture of GH, you're stupid."
"If you only accept canon material as valid for GH, you're stupid."
"If you like Living Greyhawk, you're stupid."
"If you like Forgotten Realms, you're stupid."
"If you like [insert GH fan site], then you're stupid."
"If you don't like [insert GH fan site], then you're stupid."
Although the arguments are often more subtle and eloquent than these, they can sum up an awful lot of the posts here on the board. And lest anyone think I'm a hypocrite for mentioning these, yes, I have been guilty of #5 on occasion, although I try to avoid it.
Many new people only know of GH through little scraps of info, such as the LGG and snippets from the Builder books. If they come on here and post about how they created such-and-such for their particular home campaign that they wanted to set in GH, only to get blasted by some of the regulars because it offends canon, or isn't correct, or something's already been written about that part of GH, or whatever, it can seriously put off other new people from discussing their ideas.
I know several people who don't bother with this forum, the canonfire! forum or the weekly Greyhawk chat for exactly that reason -- it's just not worth the headaches to participate.
In an over-sized nutshell, yes, you've hit it square on the head.
"I honestly don't see that much of this on this forum, compared to other Greyhawk venues, [...]"
I'm sorry, but I just find it incredibly, tragically humorous that you make this claim, when two posts up you provided the perfect example of the point I was making, referring to some other person's ideas as 'utter tripe', etc. His stuff may indeed be well out in left field -- I don't know, as I am not familiar with any of the people being discussed there -- but that's the exact thing I was talking about with what discourages a newcomer from making posts.
Everybody's running around talking about how X's ideas are stupid, or Y is a moron for believing Z, or what have you. It may not be the majority of posts here and elsewhere on Greyahwk fan sites (or even a large minority), but there's enough of it that it's noticeable, and that discourages some people from bothering to try and engage themselves in the conversation to begin with.
I mean, I'd love to discuss things about how I can make my LG characters more 'true' to the setting (since my supply of Greyhawk material is limited), as I love using such elements and all in my characters. But if I did start a discussion on it, chances are it wouldn't be long before the thread had somebody going off about how stupid LG was, or whatever. Like many people here, I thrive on arguments and debate, and love to do so over theoreticals or general approaches to gaming, etc., but when trying to discuss specifics and how they apply to my personal experiences, it's simply not worth bothering with here.
"Hey guys, now that we've gotten rid of all the people who don't agree with me, I promise not to argue anymore?" -Gene
-Greyhack
Actually, it's on Rob Kuntz's message board and before he made that statement him and I were getting into it just about every time I posted anything.
Since he had made the statement tho, I have seen nothing but constructive content in his posts. (this far...)
I'm not his friend and I sure don't want to be. I'm just observing.
Abyss
This whole thread is filled up with the regular people.
I'm excluding Blomble Snoutenherder because he seems to be a newbie who was on his way to being a regular contributor all ready.
Maybe if we would all SHUT UP for three days, the lurkers would get bored and post. I certainly think we should go lightly on the criticism of first time posters, like the kid who wanted to play a dragon character recently.
Originally posted by abysslin
-Greyhack
Actually, it's on Rob Kuntz's message board and before he made that statement him and I were getting into it just about every time I posted anything.
Since he had made the statement tho, I have seen nothing but constructive content in his posts. (this far...)
I'm not his friend and I sure don't want to be. I'm just observing.
Abyss
Rob too has made it perfectly clear that contradicting the outrageous opinions of his cronies is not welcome on his forum.
Sure, it's their forums, and they can run them however they want, but there are two points I think are applicable here.
- As has been said about Greytalk and Canonfire forum (in error, IMO), the senseless attacks on the opinions of newcomers do not promote the community or valuable conversation.
- In Rob's case it is especially disheartening to see him give his posters free reign to trash the work of canonfire's contributors and friends, namely Erik Mona. Why? Simple. We've been graciously hosting files for Mr. Kuntz with no strings attached as a service to him, the fans and Greyhawk in general, that's why it irks me to see him turn around and agree wholeheartedly with someone who mindlessly attacks our work.
As for my calling Gene Weigel's posts "tripe", well, I stand by that, and as I said, there are a few exceptions here where grudges from other forums get brought over, and for that I apologize, but here's my gripe with Gene and (most) the rest of the Dragonsfoot GH crowd (Michael Falconer, MerricB and Grodog are exceptions to the following comments, and there may be others I'm overlooking):
They attack what is new with absolutely no material complaints, it's always just "GARY (Gygax) DIDN"T WRITE THAT, IT SUCKS!!!!"
If you want to discuss specifics of why, for example, you don't like Fred Weining's take on the Vault of the Drow adventure locale (from a somewhat recent LGJ issue), go for it! The greyhawk community and forums like these are what those discussions are for. Heck, I even agreed with Gene's comments that Fred's drow mimes were kind of stupid, but to dismiss the entire work, and furthermore, attack it simply because someone dared have a creative license with the setting is an insult to the author.
Also, as Delglath has been hinting at here, they (particularly Gene) attack and critique, but show us no alternative. They are whiners who contribute nothing positive to the community. Yes, I complain about material I don't like, and I comment on issues in the community that irk me, but at the risk of sounding like I'm bragging, I am a prolific creator of fan material, I've been an active member and promoter of the weekly greytalk chats for over 3 years and I'm one of the most active and hard working staffmembers at Canonfire (along with Gary Holian, Issak 'Theocrat' Heywood, Marc 'MTG' Gonzalez and Allan 'Grodog' Grohe, along with staff alumni like Montand, Talmeta, Despotrix and Delglath). I put my effort where my mouth is, guys like Gene, to date, have not, and this is a major reason why they are despised by some of us.
I believe that is why he "made the 180," but either way.. he is being constructive and Rob has welcomed anyone new over there personally from what I have seen in my last 2 months of PPP Lurking and participation.
LOL, I almost think you are upset that he told you that if you were going to use vulgar language to do it in the forum he specified for it "The Abyss." I have seen that thread...
Once again not putting words in your mouth, just an observation. (I'm sure you'll make one of me soon like how I have my tongue up Rob and Gene's 123 or similiar.)
Abyss
then you shot down how cheesy the idea of bringing over this oriental monk by different means to the flannese. does asian monks bother you? i don't know why monks were allowed in the game in the first place but they are. and it makes a hell of alot more sense if they were asian. my friend, who studies ancient religions, is playing this monk in daoist fashion.
and this whole FR bashing that happens here. get a grip! it's a good setting and i played in it for more than a decade. i decided to DM in GH because the potential for story ideas is enormous. plus it's different. you guys seemed envious that WoTC pays more attention to FR, then you go on how cool GH is without it. please. if you put this much passion in a non-existant world, imagine what you'd do in RL.
despite that, keep up the good work *rimshot*
Originally posted by Steve_MND
I'm sorry, but I just find it incredibly, tragically humorous that you make this claim, when two posts up you provided the perfect example of the point I was making, referring to some other person's ideas as 'utter tripe', etc. His stuff may indeed be well out in left field -- I don't know, as I am not familiar with any of the people being discussed there -- but that's the exact thing I was talking about with what discourages a newcomer from making posts.
Hrm, I think I have you confused with ScottG. You're not a moderator at Dragonsfoot, are you?
A little background... Gene Weigel is who we're talking about. He has a minor following. He's THE biggest asshat on the net, and let me assure you that that is being VERY nice. I'm almost positive that if you experienced one of his rants, you would make an exception for him in your ideological little garden utopia and he would be banned.
Originally posted by Steve_MND
I mean, I'd love to discuss things about how I can make my LG characters more 'true' to the setting (since my supply of Greyhawk material is limited), as I love using such elements and all in my characters. But if I did start a discussion on it, chances are it wouldn't be long before the thread had somebody going off about how stupid LG was, or whatever. Like many people here, I thrive on arguments and debate, and love to do so over theoreticals or general approaches to gaming, etc., but when trying to discuss specifics and how they apply to my personal experiences, it's simply not worth bothering with here.
If I've been a part of that negative experience, and I'm willing to face the fact that I probably have, then I apologize. I sometimes (read: always) let my feelings cloud my judgement. I DO try and be helpful here as I am genuinely interested in fostering GH in a positive light, however by nature of being a GH fan, I'm a little robust when it comes to my enthusiasm for argument
I'll try and be a little more welcoming and nice. No garauntees though
GH on the other hand was developed by a good Idea person (Gygax) which IMHO was not that good of a writer. So Gygax placed basic fundementals and let every one's imaginations take form from their. I for one was never a big Gygax fan but I do give him credit for his creation of what both FR and GH fans agree on a good game.
As far as people getting flamed. Yeah this happens you should read the reviews I got on my Elves of Oerth article on Canonfire. The mediators gave me alot of support. But do you really think I was fazed by the posts on canonfire? Not one bit. Every one is entitled to their opinions. But if you see those comments on my Elves article you will find that the major problem people had with it is that I do not recognize the Drow as a race of Oerth.
So in the end people will get flamed and such. But I don't take it personal unless someone makes it personal. Yes we all get a little emotional over a game. Much like sports fans get emotional for their teams. This is normal so the accuse for not posting is weak IMO. If you have something to say, then say it. If you don't agree with me I won't cry I promise. In the end we all have something to contribute. But if your going to focus on the negative and bring about nothing positive than yes you are an arse after all.
By the way the most shocking post was having Delglath admit that he would listen to what Samwise had to say about Keoland. These two agree on nothing I tell you nothing.
Nuff, Said.
The main trouble stemmed from the fact when TSR kicked Gary Gygax out. For the most part most in TSR and later WotC were unwilling to touch Greyhawk. Many of them were not willing to use his world after he left, some disliked him so much they wanted to kill it, some were afraid if they did something it would cause a terrible backlash. As a result the campaign world declined in popularity because of the lack of any support.
A few tried to keep it alive with Living Greyhawk, but they have at times been ridiculed themselves by others. The problem with Living Greyhawk is that they have introduced more bureaucracy making the game more tied down.
People look to the older modules and see the amount of creatures and assume Gary always meant Greyhawk to be hack and slash, but that is far from the truth. You can't hack your way through most of those old adventures, you have to use your mind and be observant of what you have. Otherwise you'll be dead.
Greyhawk was a campaign of intrigue and mystery. Mordenkainen and the Circle working behind the scenes, not to effect good or evil, or law or chaos, but to maintain a balance between them all. Thus they are as likely to oppose powerful good PCs as they are Iuz.
I think if WotC wanted to return to the setting they'd find a ready market. But they need to do it right. Not just a new hardbound. But the setting needs new novels written and support.
It would really be nice if they'd sell the rights to it, if they themselves do not wish to support it.
So here is the main reason I haven’t posted yet. Essentially, I look at D&D as a great way to use my imagination, to play something more interesting than cards or Monopoly, to socialize with other intelligent people (let’s pat ourselves on the back here, most D&D players are likely to be a bit smarter than average), and to indulge in my love of fantasy stories. I do not, however, want to wear a cape and fangs and pretend I’m a vampire (group I contacted about playing before I knew their purpose), and I do not want to take anything too seriously. So I come to these boards, thinking people will be talking about Greyhawk stuff, and if there are any questions I have, I can post them. What do I see? Hard-core purists, who put far, far, far, far too much passion into defending their views and criticising others’. Now I know I’m going to get bashed, which is fine, and likely I will not post again (we’ll see), but you asked for lurkers to post so I am. Steve_MND put it right, I do not want to participate in these threads because generally some people are too aggressive and to absolutist in their opinions. It’s one thing to argue politics, it’s another to get worked up over a fantasy world. It’s great to have a passion for something (I love soccer, go Arsenal!), but come on, this is a game world that is meant to be open to anyone’s interest and interpretation.
That said, I do like official things for a game world, it makes continuity easier and gives it a deeper meaning. However, this is a purely individual preference, and just as often I will toss the official rules as use them if I dislike them (no dwarven or halfling mages in any campaign I run). What it ultimately comes down to here, is that I do not fear written retribution in responses to any potential post I may place; rather I do not see the point of bothering or caring, if I can only envision someone (even if it is a minority) becoming irate with some aspect of discussion in any given thread. So that, I think, is what it boils down to for many of us lurkers, that we do not see the point of bothering, because we have neither the inclination, patience, or passion.
As for WotC not supporting Greyhawk, it must be a simple marketing choice. Forgotten Realms sells very, very well. Greyhawk fans are a smaller, more rabid, much, much harder to please group. Why bother trying when failure is as likely as success (it’s a business, folks, money is the bottom line). But that’s just a guess.
Ok, flame away, and keep us all away.
>>>
Wanna know why WotC doesn't notice GH like they do FR? It's because the FR fans are more vocal.
>>>
Methinks it is more complicated than that.
--Erik
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WotC decision not to use Greyhawk has nothing to really do with the setting or how much is written for it. In actuality there was as much material written for Greyhawk as there was for Forgotten Realms.
>>>
This is blatantly false, probably by several orders of magnitude. Even discounting the novels, Forgotten Realms products vastly outnumber Greyhawk products (even if you generously include original modules without the GH logo). I would not be surprised to learn that there are more FR boxed sets and hardcovers than there are total Greyhawk products. It'd be close, anyway, and that doesn't include any FR softcover sourcebooks or adventures, of which there are scores.
>>>
The main trouble stemmed from the fact when TSR kicked Gary Gygax out. For the most part most in TSR and later WotC were unwilling to touch Greyhawk. Many of them were not willing to use his world after he left, some disliked him so much they wanted to kill it, some were afraid if they did something it would cause a terrible backlash. As a result the campaign world declined in popularity because of the lack of any support.
>>>
This is true up to about the "Greyhawk 1998" relaunch, which was actually pretty successful by the pathetic sales standards of the time. In fact, it is in large part due to the success of that brief product line that Greyhawk exists in any form today. It could easily have gone the way of Dragonlance (until recently), Brithright, Al-Qadim, Planescape, etc.
>>>
A few tried to keep it alive with Living Greyhawk, but they have at times been ridiculed themselves by others. The problem with Living Greyhawk is that they have introduced more bureaucracy making the game more tied down.
>>>
That's a decent point of view from a non-participant, but it's worth noting that Living Greyhawk has more than 14,000 active players (played more than once last year), which hardly strikes me as some kind of failure. Indeed, it is at least two and possibly three times larger than previous organized play D&D campaigns, making it the largest tabletop RPG campaign in history. Oh, yeah. And it's still growing.
>>>
People look to the older modules and see the amount of creatures and assume Gary always meant Greyhawk to be hack and slash, but that is far from the truth. You can't hack your way through most of those old adventures, you have to use your mind and be observant of what you have. Otherwise you'll be dead.
>>>
Agreed.
>>>
Greyhawk was a campaign of intrigue and mystery. Mordenkainen and the Circle working behind the scenes, not to effect good or evil, or law or chaos, but to maintain a balance between them all. Thus they are as likely to oppose powerful good PCs as they are Iuz.
>>>
This is still true in the current publishing era. In fact, it's arguably "more true" now than it's been before, because you don't have to piece together the "character" of the Circle from old modules and novel chapters, anymore. It's rather boldly stated in both the LGG and in the LGJ #0 article, now available online.
>>>
I think if WotC wanted to return to the setting they'd find a ready market. But they need to do it right. Not just a new hardbound. But the setting needs new novels written and support.
>>>
This is extremely unlikely, since the Forgotten Realms provides WotC with everything it needs insofar as novels are concerned, and they aren't likely to "split the pie" by creating a bunch of campaign settings with full novel lines. The reasonably recent Greyhawk novels by Paul Kidd and Ru Emerson did ok, from what I've gathered, but there's a reason new ones aren't coming out--the FR books must have sold better.
>>>
It would really be nice if they'd sell the rights to it, if they themselves do not wish to support it.
>>>
This is extremely unlikely, as Greyhawk is the setting described in the core rules, and WotC seems unwilling to cede that ground to third parties. The best place to find further expansion of the setting is in the pages of Dungeon Magazine, which now includes the Living Greyhawk Journal and which, at long last, is delivering on the promise of "Greyhawk as core" as best as its editor is able.
It's not a hardcover, a sourcebook line, and a bunch of novels, but it's honestly the most Greyhawk fans should expect for the foreseeable future.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon Magazine
Originally posted by Erik Mona
This is blatantly false, probably by several orders of magnitude. Even discounting the novels, Forgotten Realms products vastly outnumber Greyhawk products (even if you generously include original modules without the GH logo). I would not be surprised to learn that there are more FR boxed sets and hardcovers than there are total Greyhawk products. It'd be close, anyway, and that doesn't include any FR softcover sourcebooks or adventures, of which there are scores.
[/b]
Actually Erik I was not referring to the amount of published material. But to the notes that were kept for Greyhawk and for Forgotten Realms by their respective DMs prior to them becoming the property of TSR and afterwords ( in other words the writing and notes of Gary Gygax and Ed Greenwood perspectively. ).
I mean my own campaign world has more material that I've written, but has never been published, then has ever been published for Greyhawk. And I'm certain that is true for many homebrew worlds. And many of my players have contributed material to it over the years.
In the quantity of published material I would agree Forgotten Realms has far more published than any other campaign setting.
I am a member of the RPGA though I've not ever gotten much out of it..
I for one do not like to flame but I do not fear it.
Originally posted by scule
Steve_MND put it right, I do not want to participate in these threads because generally some people are too aggressive and to absolutist in their opinions.
If I come off as hardcore, purist or absolutist and seem too aggressive then I'd like to use this opportunity to clear the air.
I like Greyhawk. I hate Forgotten Realms. Most of the time I'm kidding around but there are only so many smilies one can use. When I do get peeved, the core issue is usually not what it seems, like if someone disses Greyhawk, what pisses me off isn't that they dissed Greyhawk, I give a rats hairy behind if they diss Greyhawk, my reasons for liking the setting are secure and I feel no threat from anyone else trying to unseat those reasons, what peeves me off is that such people quote ridiculous things which indicates they know nothing about Greyhawk and are just mouthing off. Quite frankly, that would peeve me off regardless of the topic. Hell, I'd even be annoyed if someone mouthed off about FR and didn't know what they're actually talking about.
And, well... aggressiveness is relative to the reader. It's as much a perception as it is the design of the writer. Could I tone down my posts? Yeah, sure, but that's not my style. I wouldn't be being true to myself if I wasn't totally straightforward and up front about everything.
Originally posted by scule
What it ultimately comes down to here, is that I do not fear written retribution in responses to any potential post I may place; rather I do not see the point of bothering or caring, if I can only envision someone (even if it is a minority) becoming irate with some aspect of discussion in any given thread. So that, I think, is what it boils down to for many of us lurkers, that we do not see the point of bothering, because we have neither the inclination, patience, or passion.
Well, let's be fair here, avoiding conflict in life is a little difficult. If you want to be part of any social group, you have to accept a variance of attitudes and ways of approaching things. There are limits and there are obviously socially acceptable and unnacceptable behaviours, but there is also the opposite end of the equation where I think you're coming from, ie. being a little on the 'thin-skinned' side.
The WotC boards are moderated so extremes of behaviour are curbed. Quite frankly, this forum is very tame compared to other fan-based ones. As much as I'd like to see more people contribute and post and not be scared off, I'm not about to hold peoples hands either.
Incidently, I like both worlds very much. I love the Realms for the stories they've had written on them, for the depth of detail, and for the uber characters contained therein. I like the magic-heavy, grandiose adventure feel of it all. As for Greyhawk, I love the realism, the well-developed history, and the just-enough-but-not-too-much detail level. In other words, both serve their purpose, and are great worlds.
Originally posted by scule
I'll say this one more time, just to make it clear: it's not that I or I'm sure most lurkers fear the aggression or passion of others here, or that we are thin-skinned or whatever. Quite simply, in as plain terms as I can think of, we just don't care enough.
What exactly are you doing here then? Supervising?
Originally posted by Erik Mona
WiZo Paradox said:
>>>
Wanna know why WotC doesn't notice GH like they do FR? It's because the FR fans are more vocal.
>>>
Methinks it is more complicated than that.
--Erik
Oh, I'm sure. I meant to say they post more....
:D
Originally posted by scule
I'll say this one more time, just to make it clear: it's not that I or I'm sure most lurkers fear the aggression or passion of others here, or that we are thin-skinned or whatever. .
I am right with you Scule. GH has been "Ghetto-ised" by Wotc, and, by reaction, a kind of elitism develloped. The ONES WHO KNOW, old times players, and the others. Of course it's not the best way to present Greyhawk to newbies.
If you're intereted in OS, it makes me think of the fight between LINUX and Microsoft OS. Linux is an open source Os (as greyhawk in a way), but still not accessible to every one, even if, IMHO, the best OS. At the contrary Windows IS preformated , made for making money and to attract newbies (as FR).
ANd if you go an LINUX forums, you'll see that Linux defenders tends to be unaccessibles, in others words, "hey, what are you doing here, it's not a place for newbies, go back on your stupid bugging Windows, HO Ho Ho".
Sometimes i feel this kind of elitism here, i understand it, but i also understand Scule reaction.
He 's not here to be ridiculized if he doesn't remember the name of IUZ father, and so on. And he is right. Everybody can play In Greyhawk, is not an "reserved area", it's just a game.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
This is blatantly false, probably by several orders of magnitude. Even discounting the novels, Forgotten Realms products vastly outnumber Greyhawk products (even if you generously include original modules without the GH logo). I would not be surprised to learn that there are more FR boxed sets and hardcovers than there are total Greyhawk products. It'd be close, anyway, and that doesn't include any FR softcover sourcebooks or adventures, of which there are scores.
When I was staff at Canonfire I was involved in a project to catalogue all the Greyhawk products, past and present. IIRC, there were about 90 products all up, not including the "Greyhawk as core" books like the splatbooks and adventures like Sunless Citadel. Also discluded were things like the Guild adventures and Dragon articles and the write-ups of Gygax (and others) on Greyhawk in Dragon.
In a recent FR vs. GH thread (in the FR forum), an FR fan indicated that there were 150 FR products published. I've heard this quoted several other times elsewhere so either it's a very well spread rumour, or it has some substance to it.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
That's a decent point of view from a non-participant, but it's worth noting that Living Greyhawk has more than 14,000 active players (played more than once last year), which hardly strikes me as some kind of failure. Indeed, it is at least two and possibly three times larger than previous organized play D&D campaigns, making it the largest tabletop RPG campaign in history. Oh, yeah. And it's still growing.
By those standards, I'm probably one of those 14,000 and yet I've never actually played a game. I've ordered three scenarios, gotten one (the wrong one), and NEVER got the other two, despite informing two circle members and my triad. I would call that a failure.
Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily think LG is so bad, it's more the RPGA that I think sucks. The organization behind LG is simply atrocious. It could easily have triple the number of players if it wasn't so bad.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
This is extremely unlikely, as Greyhawk is the setting described in the core rules, and WotC seems unwilling to cede that ground to third parties. The best place to find further expansion of the setting is in the pages of Dungeon Magazine, which now includes the Living Greyhawk Journal and which, at long last, is delivering on the promise of "Greyhawk as core" as best as its editor is able.
It's not a hardcover, a sourcebook line, and a bunch of novels, but it's honestly the most Greyhawk fans should expect for the foreseeable future.
At the risk of being accused of being a 'fanboy', I totally respect and even admire you for doing this for the Greyhawk community. I'm guessing it's somewhat of a risk for you and so would like to thank you for the opportunity to both read new Greyhawk material and possibly contribute it. I'll also be purchasing a subscription (obviously determined by my finances) on the basis that I'll be getting more Greyhawk material in my dirty, grubby, little hands
Oh... just a teency suggestion, on the off chance you're taking them, if you took off the 'Living' part, I reckon a lot more people would read it. After all, most of the content isn't usable by the LG campaign, (Bright desert, Spinecastle, Demon Knights, Circle of Eight...) and the 'Living' title puts many people off. Alternatively, somehow advertising the content of it, for instance, having on the cover "Greyhawk Regional Feats". The previous issue had "6 Greyhawk Paladins" but that wouldn't interest anyone not interested in Greyhawk. If it had been, "6 Paladins, 6 Gods" or something, more people would check it out, regardless of whether it's Greyhawk or not.
Just a thought.
For the record, I only got into GH three years ago.
Originally posted by Delglath
Hrm, I've discovered the opposite on these forums. The old timers here tend to be pretty quiet. In fact, when I occassionaly have seen someone say they've played GH since X, I'm surprised because I had previously thought they were new to the setting.
For the record, I only got into GH three years ago.
hmm, i've been playing since '84.
At least I would swear they're married /coff ;)
Abyss
Originally posted by Delglath
Hrm, I've discovered the opposite on these forums. The old timers here tend to be pretty quiet. In fact, when I occassionaly have seen someone say they've played GH since X, I'm surprised because I had previously thought they were new to the setting.
For the record, I only got into GH three years ago.
Delgath, seriously... I really appreciate your contributions on this forum and i often find them constructives, but also often agressive. You may discuss this point of view, but by defending yourself on this thread 2 times against any form of elitism or agressivness without being namely accused you must admit it's kinda strange.
I don't want to debate about that with you, i know passion is not easy to deal with. Again, it's just a game, and too much passion may frighten newbies. That's all i mean.
;)
That said, I do not feel like posting here, pretty much ever, for the reasons I have already clearly stipulated: I just don't care enough. I can't get worked up about things like Greyhawk canon, or even Realms canon, or anything any deeper than that. To be honest, unless it's published by the owner of the world, I don't even think of it as official. So I will keep coming back here, every now and then, and I will not likely post then, because I am looking for something specific. This is a public forum, so too bad for those who are bothered by this. I would happily post, but as has been shown, even from my relatively non-confrontational posts here, people will still get irate. Keep caring, keep posting, just understand that the more elitist (whether you believe it or not, there is a huge elitist sentiment on the Greyhawk board) and passionate you get, the less likely other people will feel comfortable with joining in.
And before anyone asks again why I bothered posting here, it should be pretty obvious. The thread was specifically posted to ask people like me a question, and I figured this was one thread where I knew the answer. Funny enough, even then people get fired up, but hey, it's all in good fun.
Originally posted by scule
And before anyone asks again why I bothered posting here, it should be pretty obvious. The thread was specifically posted to ask people like me a question, and I figured this was one thread where I knew the answer. Funny enough, even then people get fired up, but hey, it's all in good fun.
:huh:
Who's getting fired up?
By making it the default world for D&D, they have introduced many new players to the GH world, yet they don't put out any material to support the world. By creating travel guides (like the volo books from FR), they don't have to go into much detail of the world, just give a general overveiw of each area, the basic impressions that people just passing through might develope, and maybe a few helpfull suggestions on how a gm might make it more indepth for his own campaign. Maybe give the most important holidays (like Christmas,) or the most significant cultural situations so that a character doesn't embarass himself or make a greivous insult accidentally. Things like that would give the group of people in an area an overall cultural stereotype, with out being so indepth that a DM can't use it as a base off of which to build his own vision of the true idiosincracies of that particular culture.
best of all for Wizards', is that they don't neccesarily have to publish it in book format. They can simply put the travalogues and journal on their webpage for download, and charge something like five dollars for downloading it.
And all of these items would cause general discussion, here and elsewhere, about each product, bringing in new people who might want to find out the pros and cons of each suppliment, or where they can get them, or even to complain "I spent five bucks for this download of utter crap! I did better stuff when I ran my own website!" or even "hell, I did better crap while sitting on the can last night!"
It would be official, it might be useful, and it might be entertaining. Either way, it would be an improvement over nothing, and if WotC were to try it, they might discover that there is a market out there for the GH stuff, a group of people who are willing to spend money on their favorite world, even if it is only so they can read the product and complain online about every little detail, and what they would've done differently.
Admittedly, I don't know much about Living Greyhawk, and maybe some of this is involved there, but if this were the path that GH were to take, the only membership you would need is a desire to play the game, the ability to buy the products, and the willingness to see were it went. No extra bureaucracy, no added rules on character generation or game play, not even really organized.
And it would encourage people to talk (or type) about it.
Greyhawk is a strong setting, a rich world, but it has no unified outlet anymore, and as such has become officially static. with no new products, there is nothing that everyone can sit down and play, or discuss that has a universal commonality as a basis for discussion, and thus the world becomes stagnant as people simply rehash older material, or divisions in world directions cause it to be a bunch of smaller groups of people discussing their version of the world with other people who are in the know about their world, and anybody new is completely lost, and often simply shutdown by the others. A sad thing to have happen, as even a gaming world will die without new blood.
Also note in the D&DG for 3rd Edition it isn't listed as the Greyhawk Pantheon, but the D&D Pantheon. And indeed was missing some major gods from that Pantheon ( though these later appeared in Dragon Magazine. )
I think they used elements of the older world to entice those from 1E who never made the leap to 2E. In other words it was a marketing ploy to prevent alienating the customer base. Since the publication of the CORE rules we ggot the splatbooks which did introduce some PrC for the deities in the PH, however once again Greyhawk is not specifically mentioned. Nor is it mentioned in the adventures that were produced. At least I can't remember it being mentioned by name.
I will agree with Erik Mona that it seems unlikely that the world will get any official support from WotC. Which seems sad as their is a fanbase for it. ( And other worlds in limited print runs ).
Originally posted by JRScott
Also note in the D&DG for 3rd Edition it isn't listed as the Greyhawk Pantheon, but the D&D Pantheon. And indeed was missing some major gods from that Pantheon ( though these later appeared in Dragon Magazine. )
Don't forget that the gods were also of mixed pantheons. Although there is some mixing of pantheons in Greyhawk, I still believe that a lot of places retain their pantheons and discourage worship of others. This makes it a fairly important aspect of Greyhawk, so simply producing a mix'n'match of distinctly different pantheons as a pantheon unto itself, is in and of itself, distinguishing it from Greyhawk.
In my Greyhawk, the worship of a Suel goddess of death and magic would never be tolerated in a predominantly flan/oeridien society with the occassional baklunish bloodline, ie. Perrenland.
:whatsthis
Doesn't look like much is new around here? Am I wrong?
Heh, no, not a moderator anywhere, and I don't even known where Dragonsfoot is (in fact, the only GH fan site out there I know of is canonfire!, since it's link was in so many taglines and such here). About the only people I 'know' regarding GH are you, chatdemon and samwise, since I've had active discussions with all of them here on the boards.
"A little background... Gene Weigel is who we're talking about. He has a minor following. He's THE biggest asshat on the net, and let me assure you that that is being VERY nice. I'm almost positive that if you experienced one of his rants, you would make an exception for him in your ideological little garden utopia and he would be banned."
Oh, I won't argue that he may be the worst thing to hit GH -- since I don't know him, I can't argue for or against him. But my point was that regardless of the truth behind the statements, when new posters -- who by definition also won't know who this Weigel guy is -- wander in and start seeing him referred to as various things just because his opinions disagree with others here, it doesn't really encourage them to step into the ring. They feel, well, what if my opinions don't match up with theirs? Am I going to be referred to as posterior headgear as well?
Like others have mentioned, it's not that the lurkers have a thin skin or anything. It's just that for many, it's not worth the bother -- it's a game. They are interested in the game world as a hobby, and do not have the same emotional investment in it as many regular posters here do. Few people are willing to wade into something where they will be insulted just for the sake of a casual hobby. There's more productive means of spending one's time.
"I'll try and be a little more welcoming and nice. No garauntees though."
Fair enough. :D
I post very little since everything I type sounds dumb when I read it...seriously, it makes it obvious how old I am...(not very)...
-Coldpenguin
Well, your contributions are always welcome regardless of how "dumb" they may be.
::peeks in after a long hiatus:: Doesn't look like much is new around here? Am I wrong?
-Jagermeister
No, nothing new. See you after your next long hiatus.
Abyss
Originally posted by Steve_MND
Oh, I won't argue that he may be the worst thing to hit GH -- since I don't know him, I can't argue for or against him. But my point was that regardless of the truth behind the statements, when new posters -- who by definition also won't know who this Weigel guy is -- wander in and start seeing him referred to as various things just because his opinions disagree with others here, it doesn't really encourage them to step into the ring.
Heh, ok, I can see that. I guess I tend to treat everybody pretty much the same, that is to say, if you disagree with me, your opinion must be destroyed! :D
Although all in good humour and healthy debate, I guess some people see it as being too forceful and don't want to tread on my (I'm using myself as an example but don't just mean me) toes unless they incur my wrath. Still... it's the net, I've learned to grow a thick skin and retaliate before even thinking to ask a question. Habit I guess. I'm not used to simply conversing without a flame-thrower :D
Originally posted by Steve_MND
They feel, well, what if my opinions don't match up with theirs? Am I going to be referred to as posterior headgear as well?
Well, to be honest, I do TRY and hear others opinions on Greyhawk. Funny thing is, the Greytalkers taught me that. It took me the LONGEST time to 'get it'. With all the bluster going on in Greytalk, it's hard to determine the general opinion of the room on various subjects. It's almost as if Greytalk is an anathema to all other chatrooms, because in other chatrooms, if there is a general consensus, anyone who disagrees with that consensus, is usually ostracized. Which is why it took me so long to get used to Greytalk and understand... NOBODY in Greytalk agrees with ANYBODY on ANYTHING! :D
Ok, that's not true, but the point is, is that everyone has such varying opinions and every opinion is 'allowed' that there is usually very little consensus on anything. Which is why it's so confusing. But as long as a newbie sticks around, they eventually realize that their opinion, though it might be argued against, is just as valid as anyone elses.
For the most part, a similar thing has occured here, with the exception that with regulation comes some limitations which curb true freedom of speech.
Originally posted by Steve_MND
Like others have mentioned, it's not that the lurkers have a thin skin or anything. It's just that for many, it's not worth the bother -- it's a game. They are interested in the game world as a hobby, and do not have the same emotional investment in it as many regular posters here do. Few people are willing to wade into something where they will be insulted just for the sake of a casual hobby. There's more productive means of spending one's time.
Eh, although I'd like to see more people contribute, like I said before, I'm only willing to go so far. I mean... if they're not 'into' Greyhawk, and aren't interested enough to learn, listen and ask questions then... what are they doing here? This IS a Greyhawk forum, meant for the discussion of Greyhawk. Of course it's going to attract fans of the setting and of course they're going to discuss it and of course they're going to be somewhat passionate about it. I mean... really... should we talk about crotchet instead just to keep everybody happy?
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625
I post very little since everything I type sounds dumb when I read it...seriously, it makes it obvious how old I am...(not very)...
Stop putting yourself down, it's unattractive to females and as a male teenager, that should be your primary concern... unless... not that there's anything wrong with that :D
Anyway, I didn't realize you were FancyPenguin. I thought you were a lot older. You're one of VERY few teenagers I can tolerate and have any amount of respect for since I don't think your posts or contributions are dumb. Otherwise, I wouldn't give you the time of day (3:13am... sheesh, I should be asleep).
Originally posted by abysslin
90' here, and I'm an avid poster whom doesn't flame! I may observe that Delglath has 2 wives in his harem tho, Chatdemon (Greyhack) and Samwise!
At least I would swear they're married /coff ;)
Abyss
What are you babbling about?
An honest jest or joke if you will, not intended to be an insult.
Abyss
Originally posted by WizO_Paradox
Excellent point. That hadn't occured to me.
I have seen some posts claiming that the greatest thing that GH has over FR is that it DOESN'T have every square inch detailed. So the conundrum becomes, does WotC flood the world with info like FR, or keep it light to let the fans/players develop the world themselves?
(In my defense I'm all for getting more people to post. The main thrust of the thread. :D)
One would imagine that the only way to discover the answer would be to test the hypotheses. Since WotC never has, the answer will always remain unknown.
However, I remember when a similar issue arose during the FtA era. An assertion was made in Dragon magazine that Greyhawk was receiving a high level of support, with 10 products in the last year. Of course, FR was getting 10 products a quarter in the same period, so the assertion was rather disingenuous. (And I would note TSR went under soon after that. I leave it to others to hazard a guess as to whether lying to your customers as well as yourself is connected to the impending collapse of your business.)
So I will propose a simple test for WotC.
Pick a year. In the 1st quarter, release nothing for Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. In the 2nd quarter, release a single product for each. In the 3rd quarter, release nothing for either once again.
During each of those quarters, compare the volume of traffic related to those products on the message boards for the settings and that product.
That should give you a reasonable idea of just how much support fans for each setting will give, and just how "vocal" they can be about a new product.
Of course, that will require WotC to come up with a new Greyhawk product, which may well not be feasible.
Originally posted by abysslin
Oh, I just have noticed that married people tend to argue alot and between the 3 of you it seems alot of disagreements and/or difference of opinions arise.
An honest jest or joke if you will, not intended to be an insult.
Abyss
So only married people are able to disagree?
That's a rather peculiar conclusion.
And apparently you aren't aware of some of the other people I disagree with about certain things, here and other forums. Am I supposed to be "involved" with them as well?
Wait, I am disagreeing with you now. Does that make you my "wife" all of a sudden?
I just don't seem to be seeing the humor.
Thanks
Abyss
Originally posted by abysslin
Oh, I just have noticed that married people tend to argue alot and between the 3 of you it seems alot of disagreements and/or difference of opinions arise.
An honest jest or joke if you will, not intended to be an insult.
Abyss
Though I won't presume to speak for their motives, I'm actually friendly with both Samwise and Delglath, and our debating and good natured jests here shouldn't be taken too seriously.
our debating and good natured jests here shouldn't be taken too seriously.
-Greyhack
And either should my mild observational jests. Regardless, My apology still stands to Samwise.
Thanks
Abyss
Originally posted by Samwise
One would imagine that the only way to discover the answer would be to test the hypotheses. Since WotC never has, the answer will always remain unknown.
Actually, they have, with the city of greyhawk itself. It's been detailed quite well in at least 4 different sources:
- City of Greyhawk: Gem of the Flanaess (a boxed set from around 1990, I don't have mine handy to check the exact publication date)
- The "Falcon" Triliogy of adventures, which included even more details on the city, especially the shacktown slum outside the walls on the river.
- Greyhawk: the Adventure Begons (TSR 1998), which has about half of its pages devoted to an update of the boxed set material on the city, going to some level of detail, and for the record, making ownership of the original unneccesary for a casual DM running a game in the city.
- Erik Mona and Denis Tetreault's articles in the Living Greyhawk Journal (not sure which issues offhand, 2 & 3 iirc) which again attempt to update the city with more detail and a conversion of the locals to 3rd edition D&D stats. Sadly, this series was never ocmpleted, but on the up side, it gave us a very nice looking poster map of the city.
Among the vocal fans at least, these haven't been unanmously popular, though it could be said that the reason is more of a distaste with the flavor the city was given, rather than a broad strokes dislike of the level of detail.
So it is a bit of a mystery, and one I point out often. Greyhawk fans cry for new product constantly, but never seem happy with what is given. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes.
Do we want new material or not? I'd say, offhand, yes, but if it's not good or flies in the face of the greyhawk "feel" as laid out so far by Gygax/Kuntz/Lakofka, Ward, Sargent, Moore and Mona/Weining/Holian/Reynolds, I probably won't buy it and I'll likely complain about it here and on the other venues. :D
No, no.
What they need to compare is the volume of commentary on such, as that is what WizOParadox said impresses the Powers That Be. While the favorable rating matters as well, they would need to issue yet another new version and count how many posts it generates. Unless of course they can go back and check the archives for when Gem of the Flanaess was released.
So do a test WotC. Clear the field for 1 quarter so fans of each are equally climbing the walls for something new, then release 1 product of equivalent length, quality, and general content (not a module vs. a sourcebook), and compare the uproar.
Whereas FR people have alot to absorb already we have been waiting in the bushes for product unlike them. Another product hardly means as much to FR people as it would to Greyhawk people IMO.
Abyss
No, no.
What they need to compare is the volume of commentary on such, as that is what WizOParadox said impresses the Powers That Be.
Well, part of the problem is, besides Erik Mona, everyone at WotC has ignored GreyTalk since we scared off Sean Reynolds a couple years back and they started Greyhawk-L, which as anyone can see by popping over to http://www.wizards.com/lists and viewing the archives, is utterly dead, and has never had much traffic.
TSR at least knew where to find the Greyhawk fans, Roger, Lisa and Sean all came to the AOL forum and GreyTalk, the two biggest forums in those days, to talk about their ideas and hear from the fans. WotC has, until this forum was opened, ignored the chatter of the fans, and now seem to take the discussions here as representative of the entire fan base. Don't get me wrong, I value this forum, especially for its high level of newcomers to the setting (compared to other places), but, for good or ill, there are other places, like GreyTalk, the Canonfire forum, the Dragonsfoot forum, Rob Kuntz's forum, and others, and each has a distinct flavor and set of fans, not all of whom come over here as well.
How odd that a post that has a titled I would think would be much ignored (adressing non-posters) could go so far..
absolutely amazing
Abyss
By those standards, I'm probably one of those 14,000 and yet I've never actually played a game. I've ordered three scenarios, gotten one (the wrong one), and NEVER got the other two, despite informing two circle members and my triad. I would call that a failure.
>>>
Actually, you would not be counted among the 14,000 players, because that number reflects people who have played and reported results at least twice. Your point does remind me that many games do not get reported at all, so the actual number of active players is probably quite a bit larger.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon Magazine
My gaming group - which is usually run by myself - just recently started a game placed in Greyhawk. It is being run by another player so literally this is my first time playing D&D as opposed to running D&D in many years.
The game is set just before the start of The Greyhawk Wars and the DM is off to a good start. I find the period he chose to start the game in to be very interesting.
I used to be a die-hard FR fan. I still run my current games in FR but I am contemplating changing it. I'm just tired of it. It hasn't been the same since it was screwed up late into 2nd edition. The first edition material was so much more interesting.
So now that I am PLAYING in a Greyhawk bound game... I'm thinking of maybe returning to Greyhawk (where I used to play before FR came along).
Anyway - I don't know that I will post much on these boards - but I am reading
I hope you will find some useful information on these boards. In either case don't let the FR bashing get to you as I think this is something both setting Fr and GH have on their boards and is minimal compared to the amount of information you can aquire here.
Originally posted by Greyhack
Well, part of the problem is, besides Erik Mona, everyone at WotC has ignored GreyTalk since . . .
TSR at least knew where to find the Greyhawk fans, . . .
I don't think that is a problem at all.
These boards exist for fans to provide feedback to WotC on products they release, as rather clearly stated by WizOParadox.
Given that the only products they have released for Greyhawk since 2000 has been the LGG, I'm not exactly sure what they expect us to be commenting on, or just what volume of traffic they expect on a product that is now over 3 years old.
Actually, that is something else they could do as a test.
Compare the amount of traffic on this forum to the amount of traffic on the FR forums in regards to products that 3 years or more older, bearing in mind the additional FR products that have been released since. I wonder if that wouldn't clearly show that Greyhawk fans are actually significantly more vocal than FR fans to begin with.
Originally posted by abysslin
How odd that a post that has a titled I would think would be much ignored (adressing non-posters) could go so far..
I'm just gifted like that :D
Originally posted by Samwise
Compare the amount of traffic on this forum to the amount of traffic on the FR forums in regards to products that 3 years or more older, bearing in mind the additional FR products that have been released since. I wonder if that wouldn't clearly show that Greyhawk fans are actually significantly more vocal than FR fans to begin with.
Yeah Mr. WizO! Take that!