Granted, many people don`t like the MoP, Die,Vecna, Die and Faction Wars, let alone the changes to the cosmology with the Shadow plane, quasi-planes dropped, and FR out of the planar loop.
But one of the main reasons I liked planesacape was this. The changes. The ability to cover all, yet have openings for changes.
To try to accomodate all the worlds of TSR, and add all the different deities with their realms and power on the planes.
Sigil was not a priority for me, though I have grown to appreciate it and its factions a lot more over the years.
So my worry is that the new setting will be too rigid, very set in its ways, with little room for change. To me, the best planescape adventures were the ones that could actually change things on big scale, like Call of the Wild, Faction Wars and (yes) Die, Vecna, Die.(+of course the blood war box-adventures)
Planescape should not be depending on the ideas of a very few, though extremely creative and talented, people, like Vallese, Cook, McComb, Cordell. It should bend to accomodate many more, and most takes should be readily accepted(at least far more than now)
Originally posted by Surcus
.some of shemeska`s comments drive me to think that the ps3e crew will avoid many things, and contradict official sources and old ad&d stuff alot.
The problem with that is that the official sources contradict 2e sources like mad. The "official" ps3e stance seems to be to stick with the 2e set up. I can't think of anything that they are contradicting from that that hasn't been ignored from the get go.
Die, Vecna, Die, for example, violated one of the most rules about Planescape adventure writing; there should not be an official stance on the Lady of Pain. By putting in a definite origin for her, bounds were overstepped greatly. If there had been a Planescape quest that reduced the city of Greyhawk to a smoldering whole in Oerth, do you think that most Greyhawk fans would have accepted it as something that really happened in the "official" campaign world?
There are going to be issues that are "avoided" mainly because they have long been regarded as the areas for individual dm's to develop as they see fit. Planescape does more of that than any other campaign, and I think that it needs to keep happening.
Planescape is all about change. There are no real boundaries, and that is perhaps one of the greatest assets the setting has.
A static planar system is really not a valid one, more so than any world(or perhaps because of them all).
As I said over, the best adventures of planescape are the ones that change things alot, or at least has the potential to do so.
Well, Die Vecna Die was never an actual Planescape adventure, it was Greyhawk IIRC, just part of it happened in Sigil.
And if you think we're going to just keep the status quo and avoid making any changes at all, well *knowing chuckle* Do not worry.
And please please please don't take my word on anything here as absolute truth. I'm only one of the people working on PS3e, and anything I do for the project is subject to change and editing. If something I write isn't liked by a number of other folks then it'll likely get debated and perhaps altered.
I'm in no way the project head, and heck nothing I've actually written has been released yet. So take my statements with a grain of salt folks. I may have strong opinions on some aspects of the setting, but I don't have any more strong a say in things than the other writers do.
The next chapter, pre-editing, is fully my work. It's the Sigil guide. There's old stuff, there's new stuff, there's plot hooks, and theres updates of people and politics galore. I don't have a clue what in there may be changed before its released. But in no way is the setting static. Again, trust me on this.
And the things I don't like and have ranted about on many an occasion, are unliked precisely because they contradict prior material and without good reason or explanation. Ie. Pages of Pain, The Bloodwar Trilogy, and to a lesser extent Die Vecna Die (which is getting used in some manner at present, but NOT going with the ideas it presented trying to define The Lady. You just don't. It went way way too far in that regards.)
If I'm going to be dogmatic about anything, thats it. Heck the original design team themselves never had a secret identity for Her for themselves that just never got published. They themselves had some idle speculation, but they left Her undefined and mysterious for a reason.
Just lay off the Bazaar! It is ours!
Originally posted by Surcus
Planescape is all about change. There are no real boundaries, and that is perhaps one of the greatest assets the setting has.
A static planar system is really not a valid one, more so than any world(or perhaps because of them all).
As I said over, the best adventures of planescape are the ones that change things alot, or at least has the potential to do so.
I agree with this, but the fact that planewalker.com is the only official-ish 3e source of planescape, the writers there have to be somewhat cautious in what they change so drastically in canon. If die, vecna, die were accepted as written, then my following bit of screed loses all significance, and limits the amount of change I can implement in my own campaign (yes I realize I could rule 0 the lady's origin to whatever I want, but that means that anything based off of it in official material needs alteration also).
Anyway, I did hear the real origin of the Lady the other day. Have you ever heard of the Maternaloth? She is to the Baern as the Baern are to the Yugos. The only difference is that she is much more active and potent. Her schemes are so excellently perfected through the manuverings of her children that many accept the rule of threes as a fact.
The truth of the matter is that the Lady of Pain is intimately connected with the rule of fours. Where ever you see two things, look for a third, then look for a 'loth pulling the strings from the shadows. It is also demonstrated by the 'loth towers. Three stand perfectly, and the construction on the Tower of Incarnate Pain proceeds sporadically interupted by its destruction by Gehreleths.
What? You only know of two yugoloth towers? The wasting tower and the tower of the arcanoloths, I would assume. I'm sure you've heard of the third, you just didn't realize it was all part of a 'loth scheme. *evil grin* Spire's ward, berk.
The Lady is NEVER to be lanned about.
As for the 3e cosmology, considered many non-PSers despise the change, there's no reason to go with it. It's not like it helped anything.
Remeber, there WAS a massive cosmology change from 2nd to 3rd, which WotC INTENDED, and used DVD to cover...Vecna's presence in Sigil cracked the very fabric of the multiverse, and it was repaired...mostly. Planes shifted, some were just wrecked...
And Manual of the Planes became the new Cosmology.
Now, they make several points of omission there, the demi and quasiplanes being there, just not covered in the book...
As for the distinctions concerning the Shadow plane, and this Ordial stuff, I'm not too up on that. But, probably could be covered as the planar shift from Vecna's invasion.
And honestly, you can pack that all into "Some epic spellcaster lich god from Oerth broke alot of rules and darks that planars and primes BOTH thought impossible, and wrought some real havok in the Cage, but the Lady booted him out. Place was a mess for years, and is still recovering in some places, not even noticed in others, like the Hive, and people are discovering new things on the Planes, and some old things missing..."
Wow, I sure hope Set never gets any ideas.
I would like to see some more info on other power players besides the Factions. Shemeshka, Zadara, the PTC, how about the various Temples and Churches within the Cage? Sure we know about the Temple of the Abyss, but what about the other multiworld pantheons? I'm sure Gurincraag has a temple to Moradin and the rest of the Moradinsamman. The Seldarin, The Celts, the Olympians, the Norse, The Oerthian and Torillian Pantheons (Ok, FR wants to stay out of the Cage, more room for others then!)?
And now with many of the former Faction HQ's just piles of rubble or abandoned what's inside these bastions of secrets, hmm??? Sure the Hall of Records could collapse and cause a Cagequake in the Clerk's ward. But wouldn't you risk it to find out what the Fated had hidden in those "secret" tunnels? I'm sure the Sensates, er... Entertainer's Guild would. Are there still Sphere's of Annihilation lying undiscovered in the ruins of the Armory?
Maybe these can be answered by some of the ps3e staff... Does the Minder's Guild run the City Barracks? I know the Sons of Mercy still have a foothold in the Prison, but does the proximity of the Sodkillers in the Tower of the Wyrm cause any friction?
Originally posted by Incenjucar
...A single act by a single power changed the entirity of the multiverse, even though he failed?
Wow, I sure hope Set never gets any ideas.
Well, actually, he had a partial success, to spoil the module completely, this was his basic step-by-step, which is summarily an attempt to set the stage for 3E:
Give Iuz a lead to a tablet containing 99% of the "Transfer Godly Might" epic spell: Completed.(This sets the stage for True Dweomers becoming Epic Spellcasting, BTW)
Trick Iuz into coming to using the tablet incorrectly, and luring him to Ravenloft: Completed.
Reverse the spell, and absorb Iuz, becoming a greater power: Completed.
Use the power of a Greater Power to defeat the hold of the Dark Powers, and get free of Ravenloft: Completed.
Enter Sigil, despite the Lady's Ban: Completed.
Wreak havok, by being a Power physically in Sigil, throwing a monkeywrench into the planes: Completed. This sets up the option to tinker with the planes in 3E, with MotP being the result...
Stay until the multiverse was destroyed, and reshape it in his own image: FAILED. The Lady and the PCs of the module kicked him out. Yay for them, and for Sigil.
Backup Plan #1: Keep Iuz inside him and stay a Greater Power: FAILED. Iuz broke free as Vecna plummeted back to Oerth, leaving Vecna a Lesser, but still True Power, and Iuz with a serious hate-on for Vecna. Stage is set for 3E.
Backup Plan #2: Tear out his reborn Eye and Hand, and set them loose upon Oerth again: Completed.
So, the ultimate long-term planner, Vecna completed alot, and all in all profited by gaining true godhood and returning to Oerth. Not a bad gambit when you realize he was a demigod trapped in Ravenloft before all this happened. And WotC wreaked enough complete havok to rebuild however they liked.
Originally posted by JasperDm
Well, actually, he had a partial success, to spoil the module completely, this was his basic step-by-step, which is summarily an attempt to set the stage for 3E:
Give Iuz a lead to a tablet containing 99% of the "Transfer Godly Might" epic spell: Completed.(This sets the stage for True Dweomers becoming Epic Spellcasting, BTW)
Trick Iuz into coming to using the tablet incorrectly, and luring him to Ravenloft: Completed.
All more or less reasonable.
Reverse the spell, and absorb Iuz, becoming a greater power: Completed.
Mmmn hmnn.
Use the power of a Greater Power to defeat the hold of the Dark Powers, and get free of Ravenloft: Completed.
Questionable.
Enter Sigil, despite the Lady's Ban: Completed.
Illogical.
Wreak havok, by being a Power physically in Sigil, throwing a monkeywrench into the planes: Completed. This sets up the option to tinker with the planes in 3E, with MotP being the result...
Even a greater power, in, say, an intermediate power's realm, would be asking for some serious whuppings. Going in to the Lady's realm is a bad idea even for a multi-world overdeity.
Stay until the multiverse was destroyed, and reshape it in his own image: FAILED. The Lady and the PCs of the module kicked him out. Yay for them, and for Sigil.
That there was even a struggle, rather than "Did I say you could come in? *Smack* is illogical.
Backup Plan #1: Keep Iuz inside him and stay a Greater Power: FAILED. Iuz broke free as Vecna plummeted back to Oerth, leaving Vecna a Lesser, but still True Power, and Iuz with a serious hate-on for Vecna. Stage is set for 3E.
Backup Plan #2: Tear out his reborn Eye and Hand, and set them loose upon Oerth again: Completed.
So, the ultimate long-term planner, Vecna completed alot, and all in all profited by gaining true godhood and returning to Oerth. Not a bad gambit when you realize he was a demigod trapped in Ravenloft before all this happened. And WotC wreaked enough complete havok to rebuild however they liked.
1) Screwing up the whole multiverse in a short period in Sigil is illogical -- it's the ultimate fortress and transport point, not the throne of the planes, or so all lore would suggest, otherwise the lady could stop all of this long before anyone messed with her fair city. Aoskar wasn't noted as causing the whole planes to shudder, and he actually had the full might of a greater deity WITH experienced, long-term followers behind him. Vecna was an infant greater deity.
2) If it was, in fact, a deus ex machina, it was a really bad one.
Originally posted by Incenjucar
That there was even a struggle, rather than "Did I say you could come in? *Smack* is illogical.
*giggle* I like that phrase.
And actually, here's a question... I know that Ravenloft has actually declared a novel in the Ravenloft line as officially noncanon because it named what the Dark Powers actually were. Now Die Vecna Die, without the Ravenloft designers go ahead AFAIK, used Ravenloft and set Vecna loose, much like the DVD writers used Sigil without the knowledge and input of the PS design folks.
So, whats the official stand of Ravenloft on the events of Die Vecna Die? Do they consider it canonical in any way, or partially? Because it runs ramshod on their setting by defining partly the power level of the Dark Powers.
).For what it's worth, the S&S Ravenloft book doesn't dare to claim to define what the Dark Powers are. Considering no deities have dared or bothered to do anything about them, I doubt they're weak enough for even a fledgling greater god to escape them. (And how Vecna could possibly get that much power within the place, I'm afraid to bother to ask. Ravenloft is basically -their domain-, to use the Planescape term. I find it hard to beleive you can really hide anything from it/them, including the gathering of massive amounts of power. Now, if they let Vecna go on PURPOSE....
Besides, the epic spell(s) featured are clearly thought to be beyond the reach of even most gods, even in 3e there are no real official saying that gods, at least "common" gods, can use such spells.
I found the adventure a great relief in many ways. I used ravenloft quite a few times in my campaign(s). My players never enjoyed it(though a few were neutral towards the setting), and were overjoyed when I used the optional "destruction of ravenloft"-option mentioned in the adventure. It was a rather ok justification to such a thing, having a vengeful greater power "wreak havok".
About the lady: I really don`t think that this adventure said much about the lady, at least in clear text. Much can be imagined or developed, of course, but that is often the case in Planescape, and often other good adventures as well. In addition, the adventure is filled with options and possibilities, not clearly defined restrictions. The only thing clear about the lady that this adventure makes somewhat clear, must be that she has access
to epic spells(or whatever you will call these "Words"). The inclusion of "Words" is to me a link to another good Planescape adventure, Dead Gods.
And "Illogical"? Much about planescape and D&D in general, especially in earlier editions, were quite illogical. I think you should clarify what you mean better. Why is it illogical that the Lady`s Ban can be avoided by the use of lost epic spells that might predate her cast by greater powers?
You could barely read a 2ed planescape accessory without being reminded of the IMMENSE power of the greater gods.
What level of power was Aoskar before he became so much bladed mass floating in the Astral?
Surcus, I'm saying that deities tend to be utter masters of their own realms. Demigods generally aren't going to pull the wool over the eyes of anything but other demigods.
Epic level magic IS available to deities, -remember-, the ELH was made AFTER the Deities book -- the day that a level 21 wizard can cast more powerful spells than Mystra is the day I stop trying to scry on Shemeska while she's bathing, and berk, that's a day even an air genasi won't hold their breath for.
Now, if you found that, for your group, it was fun, because you despised Ravenloft, that's fine and dandy. But cutter, some of us LIKE Ravenloft, and some of us LIKE how the Planes worked; unlike, it seems, the barmy sods that wrote DVD.
And logical... the planes are more logical than you realize, cutter. Sure, a lot of it is IMPROBABLE, but for those with the eyes for the dark, it's as logical as Primus. (Note, I'm not trying to insult ya, at least not OOC, heh: but the planes make perfect sense to me, and logic is how I -work-. Old time Spock fan, and all.)
When Fell donned the robes of a High Priest of Aoskar (and became a proxy of Aoskar as well) that was the limit, and Aoskar in the space of minutes or seconds was killed, his corpse floating on the Astral pierced through with blades, the high temple of Aoskar obliterated along with the surround district of the city, and his priests and most fervent worshippered slain. All except Fell who was shunned by the Dabus and cast down from his position, perhaps out of mercy, or perhaps as an example, or perhaps out of cruelty for his betrayel.
Aoskar didn't stand a chance, that should be telling...
And keep in mind, the bugger would also have followers -all over the multiverse-, considering how transportation between worlds and planes was his 'thing'. He was probably nearly an overgod himself.
*smiles, leans back and sips a glass of Plague-Mort Heartwine*
"Ever thought that it might have been Her intention to let him live?"
"And on that same matter, I'm not convinced The Lady is finished with Aoskar yet. His proxy yet lives, and yet has clerical spells. Perhaps he was simply endowed with the fleeting remnants of Aoskar's divine spark, the barest to allow Fell to remain in Sigil."
"Or perhaps being a Dabus, Fell is unable to leave The City of Doors and, thus endowed, he represents some sort of loophole around The Lady's ban. A last plot by The Portal Father that lies still dormant, or lies abortive and forever unfinished, being in fact the push that led to The Lady's utter obliteration of that power and most of his followers on the Day of Bladed Shadows..."
"Of course, I can't prove a word of this. And Fell adamantly refuses to speak with me, or my ... 'employees'."
"Make of it what you will."
*smirks knowingly and turns to gaze at own reflection*
Originally posted by Surcus
You could barely read a 2ed planescape accessory without being reminded of the IMMENSE power of the greater gods.
And still the Lady owns them all. What does that say about her?
So, I was walking down past the ruins of the Armory and I see this bloodied man come out a bit of the ruins. He starts all screaming in some language I never new, so I gave him a potion and then he still didn't make any
sense. He starts talking about how he was in a 'different' Sigil. In the 'normal' Sigil, as you all know, the middle of the wheel is empty space. In this 'other' Sigil, he said that there was a dome in the middle and a whole bunch of tubes connecting the torus to the dome in the middle.
He said that his companions and himself were avoiding even crazier cultists inside the city of the bizzaro Cage. The really odd part is how he said that they eventually made it to the center of the torus and into the dome. Inside he said that he had a conversation with Aoskar himself. He was going to go into the details, but he next saw a Dabus float by and took off running and screaming. I didn't feel like chasing him though.
Rumor has it his flayed body was found in the Hive later that same day. What a waste of a tounges potion.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
*giggle* I like that phrase.
And actually, here's a question... I know that Ravenloft has actually declared a novel in the Ravenloft line as officially noncanon because it named what the Dark Powers actually were. Now Die Vecna Die, without the Ravenloft designers go ahead AFAIK, used Ravenloft and set Vecna loose, much like the DVD writers used Sigil without the knowledge and input of the PS design folks.
So, whats the official stand of Ravenloft on the events of Die Vecna Die? Do they consider it canonical in any way, or partially? Because it runs ramshod on their setting by defining partly the power level of the Dark Powers.
Vecna oblitarated completely the cluster where he was. Because there were no known survivors nobody knows what happenned. Another distant domain engulfed by the Mists.
Originally posted by primemover003
Heartwine from Plague-Mort? I'm not sure the Cileni brothers in Curst would be too happy to hear their secret recipe has been scragged by some Spiv in the shadow of Byrri Ymorril's iron palace. Course getting out of Curst to exact their vengence is gonna be a feat!!!
"Oh the secret is safe with the Brothers I'm sure. Lets just say that prior to that nasty business years back with Plague-Mort and sliding into the Abyss, and the temporary death of the Arch Lector during that period, that a certain unnamed party had in their posession a stock of several hundred bottles of the choice bub. And we're talking hundred year old vintages, very VERY exclusive bub."
*swirls the dregs of the wineglass and watches the light refract*
"Well, that certain party is no longer in possession of those stocks suffice to say. Care for a glass?"
*smiles politely*
Anyway, in all my Planescape readings I have never read anything about the Lady "owning" the gods, in wahtever way that expression is meant. She has no control over any gods outside of Sigil, as far as I see.
Originally posted by Sildatorak
Bob means "owns" as in, "Man, that Lady of Pain kicked my ass at foosball. She totally owned me!"
That would be what I was going for. More along the lines of 'completely better than and overpowering towards' instead of 'somehow having possession of'. I guess you Cagers are too busy with your cant to have picked up on 'freet-speak?
1) The Dark Powers let Vecna out, Jesus, they let him alter the fabric of Ravenloft to get to Sigil.
2) Vecna is in awe of a being called the Serpent who we know next to nothing about, except it claims to be the source of magic in the multiverse. We don't know the power of the Serpent, but we know that it is at least as old as the Lady.
Personally I don't think DVD let to much slip about the Lady, it just said, IIRC, she was one of the elder bretheren.
3) Vecna is Lord of All that is Secret and Hidden, he knows the score. He KNOWS WHAT THE DARK POWERS ARE, he admits is (though this could be bragging) he knows all the tricks, and with the Serpent helping him, he could find a way into Sigil and a way to stay. He knows everyones secrets, even some of the Lady's I'd imagine.
I also think the Lady let what happened happen. No one knows her plans, so maybe she had reason to let Lich-boy in.