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Dragons in Greyhawk

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Brom_Blackforge
Nov 06, 2003 10:02:22 OK, now obviously, there are dragons in Greyhawk. (This is, after all, Dungeons and Dragons.) There is even a setting-specific breed, the Greyhawk Dragon. But how common are dragons? My guess is that, as you walk the streets of the City of Greyhawk (or Verbobonc, Dyvers, or any other city), you're not particularly likely to look up and see dragons circling in the sky. But, on the other hand, I don't think they're as rare as they would be in, say, Middle-Earth (where dragons, like balrogs, were a remnant of an earlier age). Any thoughts?
#2
zombiegleemax
Nov 06, 2003 12:25:11 I've always thought the were rare. I think there's something in the Boxed City of Greyhawk about their being up to five Greyhawk Dragons in the City of Greyhawk itself, but I've always thought the Metallic and Chromatic Dragons were very rare.

They appeared to play no part in the wars, so we know they are not politically involved with any nation.

I've always thought no more than one dragon every nine hexes on the 1983 map, so 3-4 Green Dragons in the Gnarley/Welkwood, 1-2 species Indeterminate in the Kron Hills,
10-12 total combined in the Lortmills, that sort of distribution.

There are huge areas with no dragons at all IMC. In fact, most humans consider them part of ancient history, or have never heard of them, like the drow. Finding one to slay/subdue/talk to is an adventure in its own right.
#3
zombiegleemax
Nov 06, 2003 12:38:53 I would have the same opinion than Rostoff. Dragons should be rare creature, adventurers should shiver when they know One is roaming not very far, and so on.
A bit like White Sharks in the Pacific. You may not see one for years, if you'are lucky.
#4
Greyson
Nov 06, 2003 12:53:24 Yep, I agree with the prevailing notion that dragons should be very, very rare. We excised Untrishimon from the moathouse in RttToEE in an effort to keep dragons rare. We definitely don't want a Krynn-style dragon populace.

The appearance of a dragon should be kept extremely rare so they maintain their high magnitude of awe, wonder and fearsome regality. Just my two-cents
#5
zombiegleemax
Nov 06, 2003 14:45:18 Ive went thru entire campaigns without my PCs ever even seeing a dragon.

In all my years of gaming (since 90') they have met 1 Greyhawk dragon in the free city (and they didn't even know he was a dragon) and have killed (-2 PCs that died) the red dragon on the 5th level of the Tower of Zagyg in WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins, altho I can't remember his name.

This isn't Dragonlance! I believe Dragons to be very very very very rare along the lines of a longsword +5 type rare in Greyhawk.

Abyss
#6
zombiegleemax
Nov 06, 2003 14:51:33 I still play 1E, so it's no surprise that I handle dragons in a 1E fashion. They're rare, and they're tough, but nowhere close to the almost mythical stature they take on in later editions of the game.
Scott
#7
Brom_Blackforge
Nov 06, 2003 16:28:26 Well, I think my players are already plenty scared of dragons after nearly getting wiped out by a juvenile black dragon when they went through the "Forge of Fury" module. Funny thing is, their next stop is "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil," which as Greyson mentioned, has a blue dragon early on.

I was leaning toward making them pretty uncommon, but not mythically rare. I wouldn't say that dragons are on the verge of extinction or anything; maybe not plentiful but fairly numerous, although they keep to themselves. (I mean, if a dragon took to regularly raiding a town, how long would it be before an army of adventurers moved in to kill it? Dragon's are tough, but they're not stupid.) I certainly agree that it should be something special to meet a dragon, especially an ancient one.

Any other thoughts?
#8
Greyson
Nov 06, 2003 16:54:40 It sounds like a good plan, Brom. "Pretty uncommon" is a good approach, in my estimation.

I think Untrishimon, the blue dragon in RttToEE, was badly placed. If a dragon was absolutely necessary, I think a small green dragon would have been better - the moathouse is in a freaking swamp. We used trolls in place of "Big U." There are other dragons in the Crater Ridge Mines, anyway. Vranthis, a green dragon and a white, whose name I cannot remember.
#9
zombiegleemax
Nov 06, 2003 19:01:37
Originally posted by ScottyG
I still play 1E, so it's no surprise that I handle dragons in a 1E fashion. They're rare, and they're tough, but nowhere close to the almost mythical stature they take on in later editions of the game.
Scott

Huh? How are dragons any rarer in later editions than they are in 1E?

2E had frequency entries but even then, they didn't indicate that such creatures were 'mythically rare'.

Quite frankly, I see this comment as little more than edition bashing.
#10
zombiegleemax
Nov 06, 2003 19:07:44
Originally posted by Greyson
I think Untrishimon, the blue dragon in RttToEE, was badly placed. If a dragon was absolutely necessary, I think a small green dragon would have been better - the moathouse is in a freaking swamp.

Yeah! Totally!

I replaced the blue with an adjusted green. It was a neat encounter. I wiped the floor with the PC's the first round, even though they had advance warning that there would be a dragon encounter. Two PC's dead, the other two fled :D

Now that I've gone back to devising my own adventures instead of using modules, though, I base dragon frequency on age category. Sortof like how there can be only one field marshal in an army, but many lieutenants. In a forest like the Gamboge, I would have one ancient green who rules the roost so to speak, but several juveniles and a couple of adults spread out over the area. An extended family that doesn't get along well, basically.
#11
zombiegleemax
Nov 06, 2003 20:57:04 i'm playing in a homebrew campaign where dragons are equated with gods. as fine as that is, i prefer them more down to earth. pretty uncommon, as already been stated would suffice.

i'd think the average person would never see a dragon, but would hear enough tales about them to know the difference between a red dragon and a white dragon. it is, afterall, the world they live in. if a bard goes on how an ancient red dragon breathe poisonous gas, many of his listeners would say he's wrong.

of coarse the mystique should always play a part. having them equated with gods wouldn't be a huge stretch, they are practically immortal.
#12
gadodel
Nov 07, 2003 5:34:02 IMC, Dragons have their own civilizations and cultures. HOWEVER, encountering one is a "once in a character's life" ordeal-for most of the characters. If the character is interesting (and played well), they may get to meet other Dragons.

Meeting a Dragon is a tavern tall tale, unless there are witnesses. Then, the character becomes a bit of a celebrity. Maybe even considered "historic" if the meeting involved a conflict. The character would sure be "Epic" if they have a habit of meeting (maybe fighting against) Dragons.

They are a special critter and treated as such.

Only the truly epic characters ever learn about the truth about Dragon civilizations and cultures.....

In other words, I have used the Council of Wyrms and now the latest Dragon book; but this doesn't mean that the players are aware that the NPC they are dealing with is a Dragon.
#13
Argon
Nov 07, 2003 10:12:45 I like Dragons based on the mythical scale. If I wanted Dragons to be more common place then I would be playing FR or DL. Dragons and in a lesser case true Giants are rare IMC. The Lizardmen in my campaign are called the Tutara which revere dragons like gods.

AS far as giants go Ogres, Verbeeg, Trolls, and Formorian's tend to be more common while Titan, Storm, Cloud, Fire, Frost, Stone, and Hill are rare indeed. Some Titan's are revere as gods by the lesser-kin though Trolls seem to avoid praiseing of any so called god it's not a part of their nature.

SO rare is the way to go. But I like what they did with these races in the 3E game even though I still use the 2E rules.
#14
extempus
Apr 06, 2006 21:54:44
I've always thought the were rare. I think there's something in the Boxed City of Greyhawk about their being up to five Greyhawk Dragons in the City of Greyhawk itself, but I've always thought the Metallic and Chromatic Dragons were very rare.

That's in Greyhawk Adventures, p. 27:

There are reputed to be no fewer than five Greyhawk dragons in the city whose name they bear!... although nobody--least of all the dragons themselves--seems willing or able to substantiate this.

However, in Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins, p. 85, we're told:

No one knows she's [Aestrella Shanfarel] a dragon. She knows Mizaab Zalen (the only other Greyhawk dragon usually in the city), but she hasn't seen him in years.

Sounds to me like there's only one currently living in Greyhawk then (as of 591 CY anyway). But then, we find this curious statement in Greyspace, p. 19:

Second, there is a disproportionate number of "monstrous" creatures: hideous beasts such as purple worms, carrion crawlers, and ankhegs. There are thought to be perhaps a dozen black and green dragons living on Raenei [Luna]--remarkably unintelligent specimens of their races, if the rumors are to be believed.

Certain sages believe that this high percentage of monsters is not anomalous, and that the low percentage on Oerth is actually the anomaly. On Oerth, according to these theorists, the intelligent and sentient races hunt the monstrous species, decreasing their number to an artificially low level. The ecology on Raenei, they claim, is exactly the way Oerth would have turned out had humans, elves, and the rest never arisen.

If a dozen dragons on Luna are considered to be a high percentage, and those on Oerth are at an artificially low percentage, then taking into account the difference in size (Luna is no more than 4,000 miles in diameter, so Oerth has at least 4 times the surface area), there really shouldn't be more than ten to twelve dragons on the entire planet! Somehow, that just doesn't sound right...

In any case, dragons should be very rare; in 20 years (game time), my players early on subdued a young black dragon named Ichabod (Icky for short) on another world (who's been pivotal in more than one adventure), encountered maybe half a dozen or so other dragons on Oerth and other worlds in the years since then (including a paragon black dragon named the Malleck... twice!), and even once encountered a dozen young female white dragons in another universe (Icky was in heaven then!) who squabbled among themselves over the treasure their father left behind... so, they don't really encounter them all the time, or even every other year (there are lots of other adventures on Oerth to keep them busy besides slaying dragons)...
#15
vormaerin
Apr 06, 2006 23:14:07
Huh? How are dragons any rarer in later editions than they are in 1E?

2E had frequency entries but even then, they didn't indicate that such creatures were 'mythically rare'.

Quite frankly, I see this comment as little more than edition bashing.

No, you misunderstand the thrust of his comment. Its not about the frequency of the dragons, its about the power. Starting in second edition and later, dragons were given ever increasing power ups such that they often reach up into the epic levels as encounters. To some extent this is offset by the fact that the PCs are also powered up considerably.

But it is far to say, without any bashing involved, that dragons in later editions are much more dangerous encounters than in first edition.
#16
Mortepierre
Apr 07, 2006 2:18:59
OK, now obviously, there are dragons in Greyhawk. (This is, after all, Dungeons and Dragons.) There is even a setting-specific breed, the Greyhawk Dragon. But how common are dragons? My guess is that, as you walk the streets of the City of Greyhawk (or Verbobonc, Dyvers, or any other city), you're not particularly likely to look up and see dragons circling in the sky. But, on the other hand, I don't think they're as rare as they would be in, say, Middle-Earth (where dragons, like balrogs, were a remnant of an earlier age). Any thoughts?

Take a look at this article in CF
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=7
(warning: copy/paste to browser or it won't work correctly)

The first part is a listing that was compiled here of all the "official" dragons in GH. You'll see there are quite a few already, though mostly chromatic.

That said, I'll echo other folks by saying that I think they should remain rare at best. The bigger (and thus, more powerful) a dragon is, the more territory he'll claim. Sooner or later that means he'll end up in conflict with human civilization. So, if there were that many of them, we should be hearing tale about cities ravaged by dragons on a monthly basis.
#17
extempus
Apr 07, 2006 2:25:02 It took me a while to realize that dragons in 1e were geared for low-level play; they really aren't all that dangerous once a party of adventurers reach 10th level or so.
#18
pauln6
Apr 07, 2006 7:11:27 I think deserted mountain ranges should have their fair share of dragons, as should large swamps, vast deserts, and the Black Ice. In humanoid realms they should be the stuff of legends.

Age of Worms has some good and legendary dragons living around the Rift. My one criticism is that all the dragons should have names. Dragons should never be considered cannon fodder, even in a high level campaign. We need more younger dragons portrayed as characters, which seems to be reserved for older, tougher ones.

My players are terrified of meeting a dragon. They's 9-13 and the closest they came was when a blue lightninged and made off with one of their horses when they were in the Bright Desert.
#19
zombiegleemax
Apr 07, 2006 10:08:16 The Orbs of Dragonkind (in Greyhawk canon of course) were specifically created by the Suel because of the problems they encountered expanding eastward. In this case I think the dragons back then were probably of the Greater Wyrm varieties of red dragons and their underdark kin, shadow dragons. So at one point at least dragons were probably far from rare.

I think the general idea of dragons gaining power and experience as they age means the older the dragon the rarer they should be. I really like the new power-up in 3rd edition because even hatchlings are something to be feared by low level adventurers. It is D&D after all, not Tunnels & Trolls.
#20
Mortepierre
Apr 07, 2006 10:35:19
The Orbs of Dragonkind (in Greyhawk canon of course) were specifically created by the Suel because of the problems they encountered expanding eastward. In this case I think the dragons back then were probably of the Greater Wyrm varieties of red dragons and their underdark kin, shadow dragons.

Yes and no. IIRC my history of the imperium, the Suel found themselves fighting a difficult war against a group of red dragons lairing in the Crystalmist. During said war, those dragons turned to dark powers for help against the Suel and were transformed into the first shadow dragons.
#21
thanael
Apr 07, 2006 12:19:48 While were tradinlinks check out DRAGONS OF THE AERDY LANDS by Joe Katzman.

Ther was also a small series of WYRMS OF THE FLANAESS article in the Oerth Journal.
#22
thanael
Apr 07, 2006 12:21:16 While were trading links check out DRAGONS OF THE AERDY LANDS by Joe Katzman.

There was also a small series of WYRMS OF THE FLANAESS articles by Eric Boyd in the Oerth Journal:

Issue 5
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=51

Issue 6
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=52

Issue 7
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=53

Issue 8
http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=54

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Brom_Blackforge Nov 06, 2003 10:02:22	OK, now obviously, there are dragons in Greyhawk. (This is, after all, Dungeons and Dragons.) There is even a setting-specific breed, the Greyhawk Dragon. But how common are dragons? My guess is that, as you walk the streets of the City of Greyhawk (or Verbobonc, Dyvers, or any other city), you're not particularly likely to look up and see dragons circling in the sky. But, on the other hand, I don't think they're as rare as they would be in, say, Middle-Earth (where dragons, like balrogs, were a remnant of an earlier age). Any thoughts?
#2 zombiegleemax Nov 06, 2003 12:25:11	I've always thought the were rare. I think there's something in the Boxed City of Greyhawk about their being up to five Greyhawk Dragons in the City of Greyhawk itself, but I've always thought the Metallic and Chromatic Dragons were very rare. They appeared to play no part in the wars, so we know they are not politically involved with any nation. I've always thought no more than one dragon every nine hexes on the 1983 map, so 3-4 Green Dragons in the Gnarley/Welkwood, 1-2 species Indeterminate in the Kron Hills, 10-12 total combined in the Lortmills, that sort of distribution. There are huge areas with no dragons at all IMC. In fact, most humans consider them part of ancient history, or have never heard of them, like the drow. Finding one to slay/subdue/talk to is an adventure in its own right.
#3 zombiegleemax Nov 06, 2003 12:38:53	I would have the same opinion than Rostoff. Dragons should be rare creature, adventurers should shiver when they know One is roaming not very far, and so on. A bit like White Sharks in the Pacific. You may not see one for years, if you'are lucky.
#4 Greyson Nov 06, 2003 12:53:24	Yep, I agree with the prevailing notion that dragons should be very, very rare. We excised Untrishimon from the moathouse in RttToEE in an effort to keep dragons rare. We definitely don't want a Krynn-style dragon populace. The appearance of a dragon should be kept extremely rare so they maintain their high magnitude of awe, wonder and fearsome regality. Just my two-cents
#5 zombiegleemax Nov 06, 2003 14:45:18	Ive went thru entire campaigns without my PCs ever even seeing a dragon. In all my years of gaming (since 90') they have met 1 Greyhawk dragon in the free city (and they didn't even know he was a dragon) and have killed (-2 PCs that died) the red dragon on the 5th level of the Tower of Zagyg in WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins, altho I can't remember his name. This isn't Dragonlance! I believe Dragons to be very very very very rare along the lines of a longsword +5 type rare in Greyhawk. Abyss
#6 zombiegleemax Nov 06, 2003 14:51:33	I still play 1E, so it's no surprise that I handle dragons in a 1E fashion. They're rare, and they're tough, but nowhere close to the almost mythical stature they take on in later editions of the game. Scott
#7 Brom_Blackforge Nov 06, 2003 16:28:26	Well, I think my players are already plenty scared of dragons after nearly getting wiped out by a juvenile black dragon when they went through the "Forge of Fury" module. Funny thing is, their next stop is "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil," which as Greyson mentioned, has a blue dragon early on. I was leaning toward making them pretty uncommon, but not mythically rare. I wouldn't say that dragons are on the verge of extinction or anything; maybe not plentiful but fairly numerous, although they keep to themselves. (I mean, if a dragon took to regularly raiding a town, how long would it be before an army of adventurers moved in to kill it? Dragon's are tough, but they're not stupid.) I certainly agree that it should be something special to meet a dragon, especially an ancient one. Any other thoughts?
#8 Greyson Nov 06, 2003 16:54:40	It sounds like a good plan, Brom. "Pretty uncommon" is a good approach, in my estimation. I think Untrishimon, the blue dragon in RttToEE, was badly placed. If a dragon was absolutely necessary, I think a small green dragon would have been better - the moathouse is in a freaking swamp. We used trolls in place of "Big U." There are other dragons in the Crater Ridge Mines, anyway. Vranthis, a green dragon and a white, whose name I cannot remember.
#9 zombiegleemax Nov 06, 2003 19:01:37	Originally posted by ScottyG I still play 1E, so it's no surprise that I handle dragons in a 1E fashion. They're rare, and they're tough, but nowhere close to the almost mythical stature they take on in later editions of the game. Scott Huh? How are dragons any rarer in later editions than they are in 1E? 2E had frequency entries but even then, they didn't indicate that such creatures were 'mythically rare'. Quite frankly, I see this comment as little more than edition bashing.
#10 zombiegleemax Nov 06, 2003 19:07:44	Originally posted by Greyson I think Untrishimon, the blue dragon in RttToEE, was badly placed. If a dragon was absolutely necessary, I think a small green dragon would have been better - the moathouse is in a freaking swamp. Yeah! Totally! I replaced the blue with an adjusted green. It was a neat encounter. I wiped the floor with the PC's the first round, even though they had advance warning that there would be a dragon encounter. Two PC's dead, the other two fled :D Now that I've gone back to devising my own adventures instead of using modules, though, I base dragon frequency on age category. Sortof like how there can be only one field marshal in an army, but many lieutenants. In a forest like the Gamboge, I would have one ancient green who rules the roost so to speak, but several juveniles and a couple of adults spread out over the area. An extended family that doesn't get along well, basically.
#11 zombiegleemax Nov 06, 2003 20:57:04	i'm playing in a homebrew campaign where dragons are equated with gods. as fine as that is, i prefer them more down to earth. pretty uncommon, as already been stated would suffice. i'd think the average person would never see a dragon, but would hear enough tales about them to know the difference between a red dragon and a white dragon. it is, afterall, the world they live in. if a bard goes on how an ancient red dragon breathe poisonous gas, many of his listeners would say he's wrong. of coarse the mystique should always play a part. having them equated with gods wouldn't be a huge stretch, they are practically immortal.
#12 gadodel Nov 07, 2003 5:34:02	IMC, Dragons have their own civilizations and cultures. HOWEVER, encountering one is a "once in a character's life" ordeal-for most of the characters. If the character is interesting (and played well), they may get to meet other Dragons. Meeting a Dragon is a tavern tall tale, unless there are witnesses. Then, the character becomes a bit of a celebrity. Maybe even considered "historic" if the meeting involved a conflict. The character would sure be "Epic" if they have a habit of meeting (maybe fighting against) Dragons. They are a special critter and treated as such. Only the truly epic characters ever learn about the truth about Dragon civilizations and cultures..... In other words, I have used the Council of Wyrms and now the latest Dragon book; but this doesn't mean that the players are aware that the NPC they are dealing with is a Dragon.
#13 Argon Nov 07, 2003 10:12:45	I like Dragons based on the mythical scale. If I wanted Dragons to be more common place then I would be playing FR or DL. Dragons and in a lesser case true Giants are rare IMC. The Lizardmen in my campaign are called the Tutara which revere dragons like gods. AS far as giants go Ogres, Verbeeg, Trolls, and Formorian's tend to be more common while Titan, Storm, Cloud, Fire, Frost, Stone, and Hill are rare indeed. Some Titan's are revere as gods by the lesser-kin though Trolls seem to avoid praiseing of any so called god it's not a part of their nature. SO rare is the way to go. But I like what they did with these races in the 3E game even though I still use the 2E rules.
#14 extempus Apr 06, 2006 21:54:44	I've always thought the were rare. I think there's something in the Boxed City of Greyhawk about their being up to five Greyhawk Dragons in the City of Greyhawk itself, but I've always thought the Metallic and Chromatic Dragons were very rare. That's in Greyhawk Adventures, p. 27: There are reputed to be no fewer than five Greyhawk dragons in the city whose name they bear!... although nobody--least of all the dragons themselves--seems willing or able to substantiate this. However, in Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins, p. 85, we're told: No one knows she's [Aestrella Shanfarel] a dragon. She knows Mizaab Zalen (the only other Greyhawk dragon usually in the city), but she hasn't seen him in years. Sounds to me like there's only one currently living in Greyhawk then (as of 591 CY anyway). But then, we find this curious statement in Greyspace, p. 19: Second, there is a disproportionate number of "monstrous" creatures: hideous beasts such as purple worms, carrion crawlers, and ankhegs. There are thought to be perhaps a dozen black and green dragons living on Raenei [Luna]--remarkably unintelligent specimens of their races, if the rumors are to be believed. Certain sages believe that this high percentage of monsters is not anomalous, and that the low percentage on Oerth is actually the anomaly. On Oerth, according to these theorists, the intelligent and sentient races hunt the monstrous species, decreasing their number to an artificially low level. The ecology on Raenei, they claim, is exactly the way Oerth would have turned out had humans, elves, and the rest never arisen. If a dozen dragons on Luna are considered to be a high percentage, and those on Oerth are at an artificially low percentage, then taking into account the difference in size (Luna is no more than 4,000 miles in diameter, so Oerth has at least 4 times the surface area), there really shouldn't be more than ten to twelve dragons on the entire planet! Somehow, that just doesn't sound right... In any case, dragons should be very rare; in 20 years (game time), my players early on subdued a young black dragon named Ichabod (Icky for short) on another world (who's been pivotal in more than one adventure), encountered maybe half a dozen or so other dragons on Oerth and other worlds in the years since then (including a paragon black dragon named the Malleck... twice!), and even once encountered a dozen young female white dragons in another universe (Icky was in heaven then!) who squabbled among themselves over the treasure their father left behind... so, they don't really encounter them all the time, or even every other year (there are lots of other adventures on Oerth to keep them busy besides slaying dragons)...
#15 vormaerin Apr 06, 2006 23:14:07	Huh? How are dragons any rarer in later editions than they are in 1E? 2E had frequency entries but even then, they didn't indicate that such creatures were 'mythically rare'. Quite frankly, I see this comment as little more than edition bashing. No, you misunderstand the thrust of his comment. Its not about the frequency of the dragons, its about the power. Starting in second edition and later, dragons were given ever increasing power ups such that they often reach up into the epic levels as encounters. To some extent this is offset by the fact that the PCs are also powered up considerably. But it is far to say, without any bashing involved, that dragons in later editions are much more dangerous encounters than in first edition.
#16 Mortepierre Apr 07, 2006 2:18:59	OK, now obviously, there are dragons in Greyhawk. (This is, after all, Dungeons and Dragons.) There is even a setting-specific breed, the Greyhawk Dragon. But how common are dragons? My guess is that, as you walk the streets of the City of Greyhawk (or Verbobonc, Dyvers, or any other city), you're not particularly likely to look up and see dragons circling in the sky. But, on the other hand, I don't think they're as rare as they would be in, say, Middle-Earth (where dragons, like balrogs, were a remnant of an earlier age). Any thoughts? Take a look at this article in CF http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=7 (warning: copy/paste to browser or it won't work correctly) The first part is a listing that was compiled here of all the "official" dragons in GH. You'll see there are quite a few already, though mostly chromatic. That said, I'll echo other folks by saying that I think they should remain rare at best. The bigger (and thus, more powerful) a dragon is, the more territory he'll claim. Sooner or later that means he'll end up in conflict with human civilization. So, if there were that many of them, we should be hearing tale about cities ravaged by dragons on a monthly basis.
#17 extempus Apr 07, 2006 2:25:02	It took me a while to realize that dragons in 1e were geared for low-level play; they really aren't all that dangerous once a party of adventurers reach 10th level or so.
#18 pauln6 Apr 07, 2006 7:11:27	I think deserted mountain ranges should have their fair share of dragons, as should large swamps, vast deserts, and the Black Ice. In humanoid realms they should be the stuff of legends. Age of Worms has some good and legendary dragons living around the Rift. My one criticism is that all the dragons should have names. Dragons should never be considered cannon fodder, even in a high level campaign. We need more younger dragons portrayed as characters, which seems to be reserved for older, tougher ones. My players are terrified of meeting a dragon. They's 9-13 and the closest they came was when a blue lightninged and made off with one of their horses when they were in the Bright Desert.
#19 zombiegleemax Apr 07, 2006 10:08:16	The Orbs of Dragonkind (in Greyhawk canon of course) were specifically created by the Suel because of the problems they encountered expanding eastward. In this case I think the dragons back then were probably of the Greater Wyrm varieties of red dragons and their underdark kin, shadow dragons. So at one point at least dragons were probably far from rare. I think the general idea of dragons gaining power and experience as they age means the older the dragon the rarer they should be. I really like the new power-up in 3rd edition because even hatchlings are something to be feared by low level adventurers. It is D&D after all, not Tunnels & Trolls.
#20 Mortepierre Apr 07, 2006 10:35:19	The Orbs of Dragonkind (in Greyhawk canon of course) were specifically created by the Suel because of the problems they encountered expanding eastward. In this case I think the dragons back then were probably of the Greater Wyrm varieties of red dragons and their underdark kin, shadow dragons. Yes and no. IIRC my history of the imperium, the Suel found themselves fighting a difficult war against a group of red dragons lairing in the Crystalmist. During said war, those dragons turned to dark powers for help against the Suel and were transformed into the first shadow dragons.
#21 thanael Apr 07, 2006 12:19:48	While were tradinlinks check out DRAGONS OF THE AERDY LANDS by Joe Katzman. Ther was also a small series of WYRMS OF THE FLANAESS article in the Oerth Journal.
#22 thanael Apr 07, 2006 12:21:16	While were trading links check out DRAGONS OF THE AERDY LANDS by Joe Katzman. There was also a small series of WYRMS OF THE FLANAESS articles by Eric Boyd in the Oerth Journal: Issue 5 http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=51 Issue 6 http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=52 Issue 7 http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=53 Issue 8 http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=54