1) Type. Anything that undergoes the transformation process becomes a monstrous humanoid. This causes some problems for me. I understand that most creatures that can undergo the transformation are either humanoids or monstrous humanoids, but ogres (who are the ones most likely to undergo the change) are infact giants and thus should stay giants (considering that they actually get bigger. This infact creats another question: Should Krynn ogres be giants? Maybe we need a campaign specific ogre?
2) Size. The template seems to suggest that all ogre titans are large (bordering on huge). What happens if a minotaur, irda or 1/2 ogre become one? Do they become large aswell? If not then there are some things that need to specify size catagories, such as elbow spur damage.
3) Stone and Steel shaping. The title suggests steel shaping but the description doesn't really specify how this works. Can they or can't they shape steel? It should definately be harder than shaping rock.
4) Hightened senses. This breaks the golden rule of +2. Generally if something is good at something they gain a +2 to that something. It's not definative but it's a good guide. Titans on the other hand gain +10 to spot, search and listen. Alertness on steroids or what! This is also in addition to the other +2 granted by they bonus to wisdom (+4 to search). Ok they are supposed to be cool and more alert than elves so we'll break the golden rule of 2 and make it +4. Unusually cool, but not hideously game breaking like as written.
5) Stats. Ridiculous but I guess they make up for the base ogres deficiencies so they probably aren't in desperate need of changing.
6) Skills. Same as H. Senses. Make it +4 and we'd still be basking in their prowess.
7) Unscrutable intellect and necromantic talent. Again the rule of 2 is shot down in flames! Either make it +2 (which is like +4/5 because of stat bonuses anyway) or just grant immunities. This is double stacking and in a big way!
Anyone else think that ogre titans went too far? Any other suggestions?
Originally posted by The man formerly known as Woza
1) Type. Anything that undergoes the transformation process becomes a monstrous humanoid. This causes some problems for me. I understand that most creatures that can undergo the transformation are either humanoids or monstrous humanoids, but ogres (who are the ones most likely to undergo the change) are infact giants and thus should stay giants (considering that they actually get bigger. This infact creats another question: Should Krynn ogres be giants? Maybe we need a campaign specific ogre?
The template should change the base creature's type to "Giant (Augmented XXX)" where XXX is the previous type. Krynn does not need a campaign specific ogre type - "giant" is a category that includes everything from ettins to trolls. If it bothers you, call it "ogre" instead, but for the purposes of consistency with the core rules it should remain how it is.
2) Size. The template seems to suggest that all ogre titans are large (bordering on huge). What happens if a minotaur, irda or 1/2 ogre become one? Do they become large aswell? If not then there are some things that need to specify size catagories, such as elbow spur damage.
Size remains unchanged. Half-ogre, irda and minotaur ogre titans are not as powerful as other ogre titans. (Irda should actually be type "Giant (shapechanger)", by the way.)
3) Stone and Steel shaping. The title suggests steel shaping but the description doesn't really specify how this works. Can they or can't they shape steel? It should definately be harder than shaping rock.
This ability should work like the 5th-level wizard spell fabricate with the limitation that it only works on materials made of stone or ferrous-based metals such as iron or steel. Caster level should be equal to the ogre titan's HD.
4) Hightened senses. This breaks the golden rule of +2. Generally if something is good at something they gain a +2 to that something. It's not definative but it's a good guide. Titans on the other hand gain +10 to spot, search and listen. Alertness on steroids or what! This is also in addition to the other +2 granted by they bonus to wisdom (+4 to search). Ok they are supposed to be cool and more alert than elves so we'll break the golden rule of 2 and make it +4. Unusually cool, but not hideously game breaking like as written.
There is no golden rule of +2. Many monsters gain significant bonuses to skill checks, and ogre titans are challenging opponents. You're probably thinking of feats or player character races, neither of which applies in this case.
5) Stats. Ridiculous but I guess they make up for the base ogres deficiencies so they probably aren't in desperate need of changing.
6) Skills. Same as H. Senses. Make it +4 and we'd still be basking in their prowess.
It would probably make sense to put all skill-modifying abilities in one place, but again there's no golden rule being broken.
7) Unscrutable intellect and necromantic talent. Again the rule of 2 is shot down in flames! Either make it +2 (which is like +4/5 because of stat bonuses anyway) or just grant immunities. This is double stacking and in a big way!
Anyone else think that ogre titans went too far? Any other suggestions?
The template does have its problems, much of which can be addressed with a short list of errata. I don't believe they're inherently broken, however - ogre titans are supposed to be a major challenge to a party of mid- to high-level heroes (depending on the base creature) and the template reflects this. I would put them in the same general group of threat as vampires, death knights and liches.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The template should change the base creature's type to "Giant (Augmented XXX)" where XXX is the previous type. Krynn does not need a campaign specific ogre type - "giant" is a category that includes everything from ettins to trolls. If it bothers you, call it "ogre" instead, but for the purposes of consistency with the core rules it should remain how it is.
The thing is that giants all but don't exist in Krynn. Ogres being the exception. However if they are to be related to other creatures that are decended from ogres (minotaurs, Irda, 1/2 ogres) then they should probably be of the same type. If ogres were Monstrous humanoids to being with or even just large humanoids it would eliminate this inconsistency.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Size remains unchanged. Half-ogre, irda and minotaur ogre titans are not as powerful as other ogre titans. (Irda should actually be type "Giant (shapechanger)", by the way.)
That's what I assume. However do medium Ogre titans do 1d6 elbow damage, or is it large? Is there an errata or FAQ which states that Irda are giants?
Originally posted by Cam Banks
This ability should work like the 5th-level wizard spell fabricate with the limitation that it only works on materials made of stone or ferrous-based metals such as iron or steel. Caster level should be equal to the ogre titan's HD.
Again, is this a suggestion or from some kind of errata?
Originally posted by Cam Banks
There is no golden rule of +2. Many monsters gain significant bonuses to skill checks, and ogre titans are challenging opponents. You're probably thinking of feats or player character races, neither of which applies in this case.
There is indeed a golden rule of 2 (well, more like a silver rule anyway). It is even in the DMG somewhere (although I don't have the 3.5 DMG yet, so that may have changes). As I said, it's not definative, and so bonuses can exceed +2, but not to the point of +10! That's a ridiculous bonus that leaves both minotaurs (MM) and Dragons green with envy.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It would probably make sense to put all skill-modifying abilities in one place, but again there's no golden rule being broken.
There is no way I could ever be convinced that a bonus of +8/10 to skills as usable as spot/listen/search and Knowledge arcana if even remotely fair or balanced.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The template does have its problems, much of which can be addressed with a short list of errata. I don't believe they're inherently broken, however - ogre titans are supposed to be a major challenge to a party of mid- to high-level heroes (depending on the base creature) and the template reflects this. I would put them in the same general group of threat as vampires, death knights and liches.
None of which get around a +12 to 6 skills and +6/8 to most save or die spells.
Originally posted by The man formerly known as Woza
The thing is that giants all but don't exist in Krynn. Ogres being the exception. However if they are to be related to other creatures that are decended from ogres (minotaurs, Irda, 1/2 ogres) then they should probably be of the same type. If ogres were Monstrous humanoids to being with or even just large humanoids it would eliminate this inconsistency.
Ettins, hill giants, ogres, ogre magi and trolls all exist on Krynn, and all have the giant type. The half-ogre should probably have the giant type, also (not sure it even says so or not in the DLCS). It's a game convention, one which allows you to take "giant" as a favored enemy and gain a bonus against ettins, hill giants, ogres and ogre magi. Don't get sidetracked by the term.
That's what I assume. However do medium Ogre titans do 1d6 elbow damage, or is it large? Is there an errata or FAQ which states that Irda are giants?
There's no errata at the moment, and I'm just one guy with his own opinions, but it's a fairly reasonable suggestion given the nature of the problem. There are a number of things that need errata (such as half-ogres having low-light vision when ogres have darkvision), this is one of the ones on my own list for my campaigns.
I'd say that, regarding the elbow spurs, medium ogre titans should probably deal 1d4 points of damage with them, following the usual progression of damage advancement with size.
Again, is this a suggestion or from some kind of errata?
These are all suggestions until something official is published correcting it (or not). You brought up a problem, I'm giving you a suggested fix.
There is indeed a golden rule of 2 (well, more like a silver rule anyway). It is even in the DMG somewhere (although I don't have the 3.5 DMG yet, so that may have changes). As I said, it's not definative, and so bonuses can exceed +2, but not to the point of +10! That's a ridiculous bonus that leaves both minotaurs (MM) and Dragons green with envy.
You're probably thinking of the guideline in the DMG which suggests DMs use +2 as a default modifier in situations where a character may have an advantage or the circumstances warrant it. This has nothing to do with skill bonuses for monsters.
Many creatures have large bonuses to skills such as Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Swim etc. One look at the animals section will show you a considerable amount of +4, +8, and +10 skill bonuses. Most of the monsters in the MM start at a bonus of +4 to a selection of skills, not +2. They aren't supposed to be characters.
There is no way I could ever be convinced that a bonus of +8/10 to skills as usable as spot/listen/search and Knowledge arcana if even remotely fair or balanced.
Liches have a +8 bonus to all Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive and Spot checks. Vampires have all of these as well as a +8 bonus to Bluff checks. Several demons gain a +8 bonus on Listen and Spot checks. There are other examples I could bring up, but you get the idea. Some of these creatures which are created with templates also gain a handful of feats which affect skill bonuses, also, or have significant ability score modifiers, immunities, etc.
None of which get around a +12 to 6 skills and +6/8 to most save or die spells.
The ogre titan gains a +10 bonus on Listen, Search and Spot checks. It gains a +8 bonus on Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history) and Sense Motive checks. I'm assuming you're counting the ogre titan's ability score adjustments into your totals above, which although useful in looking at the overall changes to the base creature isn't any different from the significant ability scores other powerful creatures with high skill bonuses have.
Don't get me wrong, I totally agree there's some fine-tuning that could be done to the ogre titan, but I wouldn't necessarily say that the things you've pointed out are wildly unbalancing, especially when ogre titans are not meant for player characters.
Cheers,
Cam