I know I knew the answer to this at one point, but I don't have easy access to my books at this time.
Thanks!
LGG entry on him states that he may have once been a man as some of his worshippers claim but if so it was froma long time ago and an unknown people.
(there is a possible explanation for this, if St. Cuthbert was an assimar in life who then became a god somehow, he would be both an outsider, and an ascended mortal).
Anybody want to help me come up with a story?
If there's any truth to this, St. Cuthbert is Flan.
Since his worship is predominant in the City Greyhawk, the Wild Coast, Urnst, and Verbobonc, I'd agree to his Flan origins.
Perhaps there is a historical background to his enmity with Pholtus, but I can't recall to have read anything about it.
Regards,
Glorfinden
Originally posted by Glorfinden
Since his worship is predominant in the City Greyhawk, the Wild Coast, Urnst, and Verbobonc, I'd agree to his Flan origins.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. It is my understanding that the term Flan is a collective name for the various tribes and peoples who were native to the Flanaess before the incursions by the oeridians and suel. Therefore every area east of the Crystalmists/Hellfurnaces, south of the Yatils and north of the Tilvanot is originally Flan.
Originally posted by Rumblebelly
I was wondering about this enmity with Pholtus, because Pholtus is Oeridian. Could this mean then that during the Oeridian migrations/invasions that St. Cuthbert and Pholtus came into conflict because they had similar portfolios at that time. What are the areas where Flans and Oeridians have had significant cultural contact?
This would certainly make the most sense (St. Cuthbert being flan) and I quite like the idea that Cuthbert was once a flan man who stood up for the rights of his people and gained a following, perhaps dying in a conflict against the Aerdi who (at the time of their greatest conquests), had a strong following of Pholtus worshipers, and was granted immortality by the flan pantheon to continue the struggle and as a beacon of hope to the flan people.
Of course, that somewhat flies in the face of canon since it is said that St. Cuthbert is an ancient figure, sainted a long time ago. Still, 'ancient' is relative, really, and there's always the possibility that this could've occured during the first migrations, before even the Aerdi became dominant. That would certainly make it 'ancient'.
'-1082 CY The "god" Zinkman is not accepted by the Oeridian tribes to the north and west of the empire. Zinkman launches a surprise attack on the Oeridians and destroys three of the thirteen tribes. He then forces the Oeridians to accept his divine nature. The Aerdy refuse and the leader of that tribe challenges Zinkman to a duel. Zinkman accepts but finds himself battling none other than St Cuthbert. Cuthbert reduces Zinkman to a babbling, drooling idiot. Cuthbert does not take the Binders from the houses of the Suel, but instead divides them among the ruling houses. '
It appears then that according to OJ Cuthbert is Oeridian. But, he had to become canonized and sainted somehow. Maybe, he was originally a Flan human follower of Pelor or Rao, as suggested by Mr. Gygax, fought against Oeridian incursions, but in the end the Oeridians still overwhelmed the Flan. However, Cuthbert was sainted and venerated as a symbol of hope for the Flan people that someday they would be free. But like most conquering peoples, the Oeridians eventually ended up absorbing St. Cuthbert into their pantheon, and later with the Suel incursions, St. Cuthbert stood against Zinkman.
How does all that sound?
This also brings up an interesting point about how he appears to mortals when he does make his appearances.
From what I remeber St. Cuthbert is also the name of an actual Roman Catholic Saint!
I remember reading that holy relics were often wrapped in silk. Silk was monopolized by China until the secret got out. The main source of silk in Europe changed from China to the Middle East (under Muslim rule) shortly thereafter. As most clergy did not read arabic these silk wrappings sometimes carried arabic sayings such as "there is no god but allah" (intentially not capitalized).
Now that I have set it up, back to the game story:
I picked up some Immortals series modules, one of which featured St. Cuthbert as an immortal that often traveled to alternate worlds, especially modern worlds. The PCs (all Immortals, I think), were sent to retrieve the mace of St. Cuthbert. Knowing what I know about history, this started my warped mind going. Therefore I added a similar adventure to one of my games.
Orcs have raided a temple of St. Cuthbert which contains an artifact ... the Mace of St. Cuthbert! The mace is in a small box hung on the wall behind the statue. The red box appears to be made out of metal, painted red, with a glass face that has words in an unknown language painted on it. A small hammer is attached to the box with a chain. Inside the box is some item wrapped in silk.
OK, I can be a tad odd at times
;)Originally posted by Rumblebelly
Looky what I just found in the Oerth Journal history of GH.
Just remember that the OJ isn't canon. That article is just one persons opinion. Personally, I prefer the take on him that I expressed earlier. It's more interesting, IMO.
I was wondering about this enmity with Pholtus
In my campaign Pholtus and St. Cuthbert are one and the same, being naught but different aspects of the same deity. Of course followers of both Pholtus and St. Cuthbert would deny this most vehemently.
I explain the enmity between Heironeus and Hextor in the same fashion, albeit this does make the "Hextonius" hybrid somewhat of a schizophreniac. The lives of the gods are beyond human understanding after all.
Originally posted by Delglath
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. It is my understanding that the term Flan is a collective name for the various tribes and peoples who were native to the Flanaess before the incursions by the oeridians and suel. Therefore every area east of the Crystalmists/Hellfurnaces, south of the Yatils and north of the Tilvanot is originally Flan.
Yes, you're right. I have been looking at the migration patterns in the WoG Boxed Set and it struck me as obvious when I actually only made an assumption. Let me explain...
First of all, I'm assuming that St. Cuthbert has the greatest following where he lived and taught the people his ways. Looking then at the migration of the Oeridian and Suel people and comparing it to the lands where his worship seems to thrive most - the City of Greyhawk, Verbobonc, the Wild Coast, and the Urnst states - he will most likely be of either Suel (very unlikely) or Flan origin, since the Oeridians wandered around the northern shores of the Nyr Dyv.
The Suel have caused a lot of troubles south of the Nyr Dyv, engaging in slavery and the dark arts, lies and deceit. So the Flan people in the same area where looking for someone to protect them. Enter St. Cuthbert, a (high-) priest of Rao (my assumption again) who strove to bring order and protect the people. He was not above having an active role against wrong-doers, and, even more so than a typical priest of Rao, engaged eagerly in battles against evil, perhaps even openly seeking them. Rao himself saw the need for a more active role in the face of so many conflicts and championed St. Cuthbert.
St. Cuthbert might already have become a demigod, when the less aggressive Suel chose to settle in these areas and themselves sought help in forcing the Brotherhood and their most loyal followers to leave. The Scarlet Brotherhood module states that it might not have been the Oeridians who made them travel further east, but Suel. The Suel monks likely denied this in their historical accounts, as Suel turning against Suel would have been a bad precedence and would likely have put their status as the protector of the Suel and their racial purity in question (and I've yet to see a member of the Scarlet Brotherhood question the doctrine and live to tell the tale).
It took the Oeridians a few years longer to reach the regions of Wild Coast and Urnst. When they arrived in the Wild Coast area the Priests of Pholtus immediately began their work and tried to convert the Flan and Suel they encountered. Pholtus was most appealing to the same people that revered St. Cuthbert who already had a strong following and was very popular. Enraged by the actions of Pholtus' clergy he in turn ordered his priests to do the same. Thus began the lasting rivalry between Pholtus and St. Cuthbert.
Of course my interpretation of things may be flawed but I quite like the idea. Also, as you said, "ancient" is a relative term. Compare it to the knowledge that scholars during the middle ages had about life in "ancient" Rome and "classical" Athens with what we know today after many archeological discoveries.
The Suloise and Oeridian migrations happened about 900-1000 years ago ...
Regards,
Glorfinden
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
I can't remember whether this applied to St. Cuthbert or to Mayaheine, but it seems like one of them was an ascended mortal from a different material plane world. It was Mayaheine, wasn't it?
Yes. Mayaheine came to Oerth from an outside world with the help of Pelor and ascended to godhood here.
Regards,
Glorfinden
I'm greatly enjoying folks' ideas about Cuthbert. Regarding canon and the Great Migrations, I want to remind folks that the Oeridian tribes preceded the majority of the Suel refugees. While this doesn't mean that there were no Suel communities in the Flanaess prior to the Great Migrations, it does suggest that Cuthbert would have dealt with the Oeridians prior to any Suel (in the Flanaess).
However, Glorfinden's version seems spot on because, as he stated, the Suel settled the Wild Coast long before any Oeridians (the Aerdi) came to dominate (parts of the region). In addition to reviewing the illustrations of the Great Migrations in the World of Greyhawk Folio and Boxed set, From the Ashes, and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, see Roger E. Moore, The Adventure Begins, 54-57 (1998).
Peace!
also it doesn't seem like enough time would have passed for the people of the flanaess to have forgotten his race of origin... heck we remember the racial identity of real world religious figures from two to three times the time frame listed in Glorfinden's hypothosis.
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
in that case the stats in DDG are wrong for Cuthbert, because he would not have been a god long enough to have aquired the 20 outsider HD (unless he was already an outsider to begin with... which seems unlikly).
also it doesn't seem like enough time would have passed for the people of the flanaess to have forgotten his race of origin... heck we remember the racial identity of real world religious figures from two to three times the time frame listed in Glorfinden's hypothosis.
If a Greyhawk god is said to be commonly worshipped, this doesn't necessarily mean, that people don't actually know his origins, rather that they don't care.
It is also true that we today know a lot more about people 2000-3000 years ago, because we had enough time and resources to rediscover and decipher ancient writings, something a medieval scholar could have only dreamt of. Then again, there still is a lot of information missing even from 1000-1500 years ago, and not very much is known about the actual rites and worship of the continental Gauls, the Germanic tribes, and similar people without a writing system from 2000 years ago. How much is actually known about the Queen of Saba and their people?
To make my point a bit more clear, the Flan have a strong oral tradition and the time of the migration of Suel and Oeridians was a time of great hardship. Oeridians and Suel constantly on the move means that they were less likely to have written down every bit of information and more likely to have retold the stories from their point of view, very opiniated for sure since they constantly battled one against the others at first. St. Cuthbert in my opinion was very popular then and that let many tribes to believe that he is their god or at least ignore his origins.
And yes, I stated that it my description may have flaws.
I took a look at the stats of St. Cuthbert in the DDG (don't own it myself). I could counter with 1st and 2nd Edition stats, but it's a moot point. In the end it's your world to do as you like. :-)
Regards,
Glorfinden
If a Greyhawk god is said to be commonly worshipped, this doesn't necessarily mean, that people don't actually know his origins, rather that they don't care.
LGG states in the first sentence that what ever race he may have belonged to is unkown.
It is also true that we today know a lot more about people 2000-3000 years ago, because we had enough time and resources to rediscover and decipher ancient writings, something a medieval scholar could have only dreamt of.
Do not compare flanaess scholars to medival scholars... the events of the last thousand years are realitivly well known to the people of the flanaess, and thier scholars have access to abilities that scientists even today could never dream of (comprehend languages, read magic, legend lore etc.).
I took a look at the stats of St. Cuthbert in the DDG (don't own it myself). I could counter with 1st and 2nd Edition stats
they would make not the slightest bit of difference considering that in the previous editions there was no differefcne at all between the stats of a ascended mortal, and thos of a deity that was never mortal.... however in 3e there is (and it is not reflected in St. Cuthbert's stats).
Although I don't agree with your hypothesis, I do think that it was creative, and on the whole good work.
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
Do not compare flanaess scholars to medival scholars... the events of the last thousand years are realitivly well known to the people of the flanaess, and thier scholars have access to abilities that scientists even today could never dream of (comprehend languages, read magic, legend lore etc.).
At first I thought my explanation wasn't clear enough, but now I see the point.
LGG states in the first sentence that what ever race he may have belonged to is unkown.
...
they would make not the slightest bit of difference considering that in the previous editions there was no differefcne at all between the stats of a ascended mortal, and thos of a deity that was never mortal.... however in 3e there is (and it is not reflected in St. Cuthbert's stats).
I don't own the DDG and the LGG (yet). They made quite some changes to the setting it seems, e.g. St. Cuthbert LN (LG) or LN (in the DDG); the alignment up to the last 2nd ed books is LG (LN).
Although I don't agree with your hypothesis, I do think that it was creative, and on the whole good work.
Thx!
Glorfinden
I don't own the DDG and the LGG (yet). They made quite some changes to the setting it seems, e.g. St. Cuthbert LN (LG) or LN (in the DDG); the alignment up to the last 2nd ed books is LG (LN).
that change was actually sort of forced on the setting... the core rules wanted a LN god with good tendencies and Pholtus' portfolio was to close to Pelor's (what with light and all).. so they changed St. Cuthbert to fit the role.
Originally posted by Glorfinden
Yes, you're right. I have been looking at the migration patterns in the WoG Boxed Set and it struck me as obvious when I actually only made an assumption. Let me explain...
Cool, I quite like that explanation. I'm going to use that, thanks! :D
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
in that case the stats in DDG are wrong for Cuthbert, because he would not have been a god long enough to have aquired the 20 outsider HD (unless he was already an outsider to begin with... which seems unlikly).
I agree (again) with Glorfinden.
And besides... just HOW much errata is there on WotC books? I mean, really, the gods of Greyhawk weren't even made up by Greyhawk fans and the St. Cuthbert of 3rd ed. is a mutated monstrosity that little resembles the original in the past two editions... it's not like they were going for accuracy.
St. Cuthbert was a real Saint in our, but I much prefer the line that he was originally a Flan priest of Rao or Pelor that acsended and then came in conflict with the Oeridian Pantheon to that of some other dimensional entity come to Oerth.
Let's keep the discussion going.
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
that change was actually sort of forced on the setting... the core rules wanted a LN god with good tendencies and Pholtus' portfolio was to close to Pelor's (what with light and all).. so they changed St. Cuthbert to fit the role.
Because it includes Light?
"It is said that the regularity of sunrise and sunset, the cycles of the moon, are as fixed as the resolve of Pholtus to show all creatures the One True Way, a strict path which allows no deviation but gives absolute assurance of righteousness. Some followers of the Blinding Light actually claim it is their deity, Pholtus, who ordered the rigid progression of the sun and moon and maintains them in his regimen. Such claims are not regarded as doctrine."
-Dragon Magazine, Issue # 68, Deities and Demigods of Greyhawk, Pholtus, by Gary Gygax
You would need to work pretty hard not to see the light, and realize the two have nothing in common.
Further, I would point out that article specifically permitted LE worshippers of Pholtus, while the one on Cuthbert specifically did not permit such. This was followed in the deity descriptions in From the Ashes, and in The Adventure Begins. So it was an exceptionally poor choice to make inlight of past write ups.
Originally posted by Samwise
Further, I would point out that article specifically permitted LE worshippers of Pholtus, while the one on Cuthbert specifically did not permit such. This was followed in the deity descriptions in From the Ashes, and in The Adventure Begins. So it was an exceptionally poor choice to make inlight of past write ups.
Delglath saves against Bait.
Because it includes Light?
"It is said that the regularity of sunrise and sunset, the cycles of the moon, are as fixed as the resolve of Pholtus to show all creatures the One True Way, a strict path which allows no deviation but gives absolute assurance of righteousness. Some followers of the Blinding Light actually claim it is their deity, Pholtus, who ordered the rigid progression of the sun and moon and maintains them in his regimen. Such claims are not regarded as doctrine."
-Dragon Magazine, Issue # 68, Deities and Demigods of Greyhawk, Pholtus, by Gary Gygax
You would need to work pretty hard not to see the light, and realize the two have nothing in common.
Further, I would point out that article specifically permitted LE worshippers of Pholtus, while the one on Cuthbert specifically did not permit such. This was followed in the deity descriptions in From the Ashes, and in The Adventure Begins. So it was an exceptionally poor choice to make inlight of past write ups.
I do not get your argument...Pholtus has always been listed as a LN god with LG tendencies where as until 3e Cuthbert was listed as a LG god with LN tendencies....
I was explaining ther reason they changed Cuthberts alignment and stuck him in the core rules as LN (LG) rather then LG (LN) and didn't simply use pholtus (who already was listed as such)... the reason being that his portfolio of light impinged upon Pelor's portfolio (Pelor also has light).
and if you are trying to tell me that both gods do not have light in thier portfolios I will direct your attention to the table on page 63-64 of the guide to the world of greyhawk (from the 83 boxed set) where both Pelor and Pholtus have light cleary listed.
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
I do not get your argument...Pholtus has always been listed as a LN god with LG tendencies where as until 3e Cuthbert was listed as a LG god with LN tendencies....
Err... nope. Pholtus has always been Lawful Good with Neutral tendancies.
I personally think it is utterly ridiculous and so beyond stupid as to be asstastically, profoundly, and irrefutably retarded to have Lawful Evil followers of Pholtus, but SOME people think it's logical.
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
I do not get your argument...Pholtus has always been listed as a LN god with LG tendencies where as until 3e Cuthbert was listed as a LG god with LN tendencies....
I was explaining ther reason they changed Cuthberts alignment and stuck him in the core rules as LN (LG) rather then LG (LN) and didn't simply use pholtus (who already was listed as such)... the reason being that his portfolio of light impinged upon Pelor's portfolio (Pelor also has light).
and if you are trying to tell me that both gods do not have light in thier portfolios I will direct your attention to the table on page 63-64 of the guide to the world of greyhawk (from the 83 boxed set) where both Pelor and Pholtus have light cleary listed.
Ummm . . .
No.
I am trying to tell that confusing a deity who's association with the sun and light is clearly established in canon materials as being "as sure as the sun rises, Pholtus knows the one true path", and "Behold the Blinding Light of Truth unbeliver!", not as the actual sun and sunlight as represented by Pelor.
The portfolio of Light for Pholtus does not impinge on the same aspect of Pelor in the least. You need to be either ignorant of that passage, and no game designer should ever be ignorant of previous background material, or simply unable to comprehend a rather simple pair of nuances of the English language, which is also to be expected of a game designer, and also to be expected of people who play role-playing games.
And yes, I am well aware of the portfolios listed in those books, though you are incorrect and both were LG(LN) from the beginning. My point is that Pholtus is much more suitable for the role of an LN(LG) deity, as Cuthbert was revised to, as well as being much more suitable for the absurd addition of the Retribution portfolio (already covered by Trithereon) and the Destruction Domain (which belongs nowhere near any deity of Good alignment).
As such, the revison they did shows either a distinct lack of knowledge of canon, a distinct lack of utility with English, a distinct lack of imagination to be unable to keep them separate, a distinct lack of respect for gamers to be able to understand this, or some combination or all of the above. In any case, it is poor work.
Originally posted by Delglath
Err... nope. Pholtus has always been Lawful Good with Neutral tendancies.
I personally think it is utterly ridiculous and so beyond stupid as to be asstastically, profoundly, and irrefutably retarded to have Lawful Evil followers of Pholtus, but SOME people think it's logical.
Starting with the person who created Pholtus.
Now if you think the creator didn't know what he was doing, that is your business.
And if you want to change things to suit your campaign, that is again your business.
But if you want to go off on yet another of your rude rants because some people can read the original material written for the deity and refer to it, or even prefer to use it, whether or not they embrace other revisions, then you should go to another forum. I am tired of you indulging your love of vulgarity and insult whenever someone dares to disagree with you.
Originally posted by Samwise
And yes, I am well aware of the portfolios listed in those books, though you are incorrect and both were LG(LN) from the beginning.
EH! Wrong!
Both were Lawful Good with Neutral tendancies, NOT Lawful Good (Lawful Neutral). A fine distinction to be sure, but an important one nevertheless.
Originally posted by Samwise
The portfolio of Light for Pholtus does not impinge on the same aspect of Pelor in the least. You need to be either ignorant of that passage, and no game designer should ever be ignorant of previous background material, or simply unable to comprehend a rather simple pair of nuances of the English language, which is also to be expected of a game designer, and also to be expected of people who play role-playing games.
Originally posted by Samwise
But if you want to go off on yet another of your rude rants because some people can read the original material written for the deity and refer to it, or even prefer to use it, whether or not they embrace other revisions, then you should go to another forum. I am tired of you indulging your love of vulgarity and insult whenever someone dares to disagree with you.
Riiiiiiight. So this horse you're on, how many hands is it?
Originally posted by Delglath
EH! Wrong!
Both were Lawful Good with Neutral tendancies, NOT Lawful Good (Lawful Neutral). A fine distinction to be sure, but an important one nevertheless.
Check the support material that goes with it. The Neutral aspect was clearly shown to refer to being closer to Lawful Neutral than True Neutral.
Oh, and I am not on any horse. Calling poor, or incompetent, design such does not have to involve vulgarity, nor does it in my post.
I personally think it is utterly ridiculous and so beyond stupid as to be asstastically, profoundly, and irrefutably retarded to have Lawful Evil followers of Pholtus, but SOME people think it's logical.
If you put an ounce of reasoning behind your comment above you might come to realize the following. One of the reasons christans and jews were so widely hated and dispised was that both believed in the one true god. Sounds similar to the one true path. In a medieval fantasy society in which polytheism is widely accepted. The priesthood of Pholtus seeks a monotheistic approach especially in places such as the Theocracy of the Pale, they don't wish to stop their but also wish to incorporate the Shield Lands as a nation devoted solely to Pholtus.
Wouldn't all priesthoods who still follow the polytheistic approach find Pholtus to be evil or wrong. Would not people who have long accepted the current polytheistic belief system, see being forced to worship one deity as dictating their llives as well as personal beliefs to be wrong or Evil.
I know this approach is not spread through out all of Oerth. But who determines that the one true path is righteous for all people. Who is willing to enforce these laws? Their will be fanatics amongst any god. But to state that Pholtus does not accept LE priest's is simply making a very black & White approach to gods. if you want to have your version of Pholtus for your campaign then fine. I don't read gods by their aligment but simply by their portfolio.
Besides this was a childish approach to verbally attack those individuals that did not agree with you on Greytalk. I never thought you would stoop this low. But unfortunately you did.
Now with that said I don't see either Judaism or Christianity as evil. This is just an example of ways Pholtus could be seen. It might even explain one of the reasons St. Cuthbert and Pholtus do not get along. This is not to say that all priests of Pholtus are Lawful Evil but I think it is feasible that some of his clergy who follow a less desirable version of the One True Path.
I could go on for hours but I think that I have ranted on long enough.
I can see Argon's point for the LE priests of Pholtus. It could also be that some LE priests simply use Pholtus' inflexible doctrine to garner power unto themselves. They would see the One True Path as a means to an end rather than the end itself. That could be another distinction between followers of the two gods and yet another source of enmity.
Still, it is hard to swallow that a LG (LN, whatever
) god, even with neutral tendencies would willing answer the prayers of LE followers. I like the more black and white approach IMC, unless having LE priests of Pholtus adds something meaningful to the setting.-wn
I think that these Lawful Evil putative followers of Pholtus come from an early issue of Dragon or one of Gygax's novels.
However, I enjoy the notion (advanced by several fans) that Dimre may actually patronize one of the arch-devils -- possibly Mephistopheles or Asmodeus itself.
Originally posted by Tizoc
However, I enjoy the notion (advanced by several fans) that Dimre may actually patronize one of the arch-devils -- possibly Mephistopheles or Asmodeus itself.
In my Greyhawk, the possibility that a LG god would grant powers to LE followers is an anathema to all that strive for as a DM.
I also never liked the idea that even misguided followers of Pholtus would be LE.
So in my Greyhawk, Dimre is actually the seat of 'rebel' organization of devout Pholtus worshipers. I singled out rebel because in truth, I just don't think true Pholtans would act to cause such strife as the common rebel would, especially in or against the church or nation of their god.
Instead, they are an offshoot of the Church Militant. A secret society that operates within the Pale to root out true believers and abscond with them to the Dimre, where they can worship Pholtus as he was meant to be worshiped, via the One True Way.
They view the Pale as a... pale imitation of the will of Pholtus but at the same time do not wish to act against the Theocracy both for fear of reprisal and to conserve the infrastructure of what could, one day, be a true bastion of law and good in the Flanaess.
The main reason no-one has ever returned from scouting out the Dimre or in attacks on them, is because a lot of them get caught and offered sanction. Even when taken as prisoners, they're 'deprogrammed' and shown the One True Way and given the choice of following it or freedom. There is yet to be a person who refuses to stay with the folk of Dimre.