.I always wonder how come their has never been half-dragons on Athas. I mean think about it. You have several human kings in different stage of dragon metamarfosis (thus their very nature are changing more and more into a pure dragon (a.k.a. the madness of the 23rd level metamorphosis) and at least a fiew of them probably have harems. Thus having many children how come their are no trace of dragon "genes" in them. I know the transformation is magical but the magic is actualy changing the DKs permenently: it's not an illusion so again why are they not half-dragons.
Of course the DK in advance metamorphosis would have to use a illusion spell or a changeshape spell to "mate" but hey!! I'm sure they it can be done
What do you think?? Should we ask Athas.org to consider the possibility of a official DS half-dragon child player char.??
But to my thinking there should be a DS h-d version more likely unique to the DS setting and of course quite rare (obviously)
Originally posted by Heretic Apostate
You mean like the half-cilops son of Nibenay, as seen in the Prism Pentad?
I'm not sure but I think the half-cilop was a magical creation I'm thinking more from in a natural way. Again, I could be wrong about the half-cilop.
What does this mean? Simple: dragons on Athas are not a race; instead, they are a condition of being, in the same way being a lich is a condition of being. In terms of genetics, they're still very much human.
(As for Nibenay's son, it may well be that he was altered by his father, or by the Pristine Tower. Who knows?)
--Athasian dragons are a condition, not a race NB
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
I own nearly every single sourcebook for the Dark Sun line, and I can tell you of only one instance when a dragon king bore offspring; in The Veiled Alliance, it makes mention that the leader of the Raamish Veiled Alliance is the daughter of Abalach-Re and a human lover. This woman is listed as being totally and completely human.
What does this mean? Simple: dragons on Athas are not a race; instead, they are a condition of being, in the same way being a lich is a condition of being. In terms of genetics, they're still very much human.
(As for Nibenay's son, it may well be that he was altered by his father, or by the Pristine Tower. Who knows?)
--Athasian dragons are a condition, not a race NB
After reading you post, I have to admit it make sence and your probably right. It is with sadness that I realise there will never be h-d in DS
Personally, I've considered that (Ablach-Re excepting) the metamorphosis process rendered them rather sterile. The thought that someone who rips the life out of everything around them (plant or animal) being able to actually create life doesn't sound right in my head. Of course, every rule has an exception...
Originally posted by Heretic Apostate
How about the drays? The creatures that live in Dregoth's city?
They were crafted by Dregoth using ancient halfling knowledge unearthed from the Blue Age city on which Giustenal was built.
Dregoth made them in his image only. They breed true, but in the hopes of not falling in the fallacies of comparing fantasy to real-world science, I'd say it's like a human who got genetically modified to look draconic and to have his children look the same.
Basically it's morphological with a touch of magical abilities (resistance, whatnot...), in a similar way to the half-giant: an origin steeped in magic, but the result breeds true and is not itself of magical nature...
--otherwise, dragons lose their Athasian uniqueness NB
Hold on, just a second, what's with that statement? I guess I'm not worth my weight in sand - because while it is a tasking and slow process, I'll allow my players to become Dragons. They can't become Champions of Rajaat (for obvious reasons) but I'd allow Dragons or Avangions. And with a system in place that keeps them in balance with equivalently-leveled characters, it works. My method made dragon progression actually be about 35 levels (not counting levels of other classes for prerequisites) and 40 levels for Avangions. This meant that in my games, a fully-developed (and not hastily-developed through short-cuts) Dragon would be about level 55. However I put in some methods for a Dragon to short-cut the routine, which also stunted his developmental process somewhat.
Yes, I pretty much had to design my own method for it, building off of ideas from the 2nd Ed. versions of Dragons and Avangions. I even made it possible that any race of either the Humanoid or Giant type could potentially become a Dragon and Avangion, with their original heights and weights affecting the outcome.
---
You see, I belive in lettimy my characters do what they want, within reason and the confines of roleplaying & game system mechanics. If they want to become Dragons, they can - it's just a lengthy process and generally has interesting repercussions that they may or may not be aware of.
Originally, when you take levels in this class your spellcaster level in both Divine spells and Arcane spells increases. The prerequisites are then able to cast 2rd level divine and arcane spells. So basically you can start this prestige class at 6th level.
However, we changed the Divine spells for psionic powers. So, then you can start this prestige class at 7th level. So, at 2nd level of this class one can manifest 3rd level powers and cast 3rd level spells and so on. So, at 14th level of this prestige class (total level is 21) one can cast 9th level spells and manifest 9th level powers and then you can start thinking of becoming a dragon. Getting these 21 levels is as hard as to multiclass 20/20 like in the original 2nd edition isn't it?
Originally posted by Naga_Slayer
The fact that any DM worth his weight in sand would never allow a PC to become a Dragon in the first place, that blows your little theory right out of the water, doesn't it?
Naga Slayer, the whole point behind Athasian dragons is that they're the biggest, baddest, meanest, most destructive forces in all of Athas. They're the living incarnation of defiling magic, and so by all rights must be as epic as can be.
And you're right, I'd never let a player become an Athasian dragon; not because I feels it's unbalancing, but because I despise running campaigns where the players play evil PCs.
Avangions, on the other hand, would make perfect PCs for one of my campaigns! As the living incarnation of natural power and life-preserving magic, a PC ascending to avangion status would be a perfect and utterly fulfilling way to enhance my DS campaigns to epic levels.
Dragons and avangions are living avatars of arcane magic. They're the closest thing Athas will ever come to having true gods.
--as such, they must be epic NB
Since the original core set included the defiler as a viable and acceptable class for a player to take, dissallowing the culmination of that class is well, rather lame. Dragons, Avangions, and Elemental Beings were presented not simply as a DM tool, but as an enhancement and option to players. Otherwise, the Dragon Kings book would have presented more examples of Advanced Beings for the DM to use and less about how a player can become one. Understand as well that in 2e, a 50th lvl fighter was a powerhouse as well, and though the 50th lvl Dragon (20th lvl wizard, 20th lvl psionicist, 10th lvl dragon) did indeed outscore the equivalent level fighter, it was not by so much that a campaign in which both were being played was a joke.
As for the original topic of half-dragons, I think based on the very little material there is about dragons and their offspring (Nibenay and Abalach-Re being the only one's I know of), that there is no single cut and dry template that could be or should be applied. Either the child is human, or the child is . . . something else. Perhaps the SK has far more control over the end result that mere genetics.
As for some methods to incoporate advanced beings into the 3e mechanics, there are tons of suggestions, some of which are horrible and others not quite so, if you do a little digging through previous threads. Most suggestions are riddled with holes of one sort or another.
If anyone attempted to start the process to become a dragon or avangion the other dragon kings who Jelously hold their control on the world would know. They would also go in person if need be and work together to wipe the person(s) out> they worked together against the Dragon, Dregoth as well as Raajat "I know I miss-spelled them" so that they would not only retain control but eliminate all possible threats.
The Dray... you have got to love them. The thing is though that Dregoth has the planer gate and has sent his minions to other settings of the D&D universe. He has also collected samples of creatures and I do believe even a dragon or so when he made the Dray based of them. I could be remembering it wrong but Thats what I am remembering off hand.
Off Topic: What is funny is how Dregoth wants to be a GOD but cant becosue on Athas the ties that normaly allow that no longer exist "They did once before from my understanding" but if he would use the gate himself he would achieve his goal almost instantly BUT for some reason he is either afraid to use it or doesnt want to leave Athas... who knows...
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Originally posted by Pennarin
They were crafted by Dregoth using ancient halfling knowledge unearthed from the Blue Age city on which Giustenal was built.
Dregoth made them in his image only. They breed true, but in the hopes of not falling in the fallacies of comparing fantasy to real-world science, I'd say it's like a human who got genetically modified to look draconic and to have his children look the same.
Basically it's morphological with a touch of magical abilities (resistance, whatnot...), in a similar way to the half-giant: an origin steeped in magic, but the result breeds true and is not itself of magical nature...
I'm just wondering if the above are your thoughts or is it canon source.??
So dray is really something like a template to be added to any human(oid). Although they are not quite as powerful as the standard half-dragons.
These were my thoughts of course, but they are steeped in the canon elements from The City by the Silt Sea, as the others mentionned.
Here's a thought: in an alternate fantasy universe, all folk are lizard-like, but one god as the weird appearence of a soft-skin being. That god creates a subject race in his image and calls them, say...humans. Their origin is magical but THEY are not. Obviously.
Same with the drays.
;)
As for the reproductive anatomy
of a dragon, that's a mystery, and anyway DS is PG13 so...They could always change form to reproduce, but the novelists of DS were not fund(?) of shapechanging.
Do you think a champion CAN change form? I would lean toward no, that their metamorphosis dosen't allow morphological changes others than size change.
You know, this could be a nice question to Abbey: was Hamanu made a master of illusions, because he could not change form to disguise himself?
1/2 Dragon / Dragon Disciple should be okay in Darksun but ultimitly it is up to the DM running the world.
PC dragons and advanced beings should be allowed but again- up to the GM.
As a twist, I always wanted for Tek to return somehow cut the strings that the puppeteers have over his son, after having placed the child in position to take over before he left to fight Borys and Rajaat. Of course, this would only happen after the PCs think they've uncovered the 'truth' about Atzetuk.
Originally posted by Shim
[b]Our DM provides another way to become a dragon. This was via the (I thought) Mystic Theurg prestige class instead of taking 20 levels wizard and psion (total 40), which is impossible.
Why is this impossible?
Once a character has gone to 21st level he is an epic character, but he can still advance in classes and he is not an epic class until that class level exceeds 20th level. So a 20/20 wizard/psion is an epic character but not quite an epic wizard or psion, although at the next level in either class he would be for that class.
Something that crossed my mind was why not use one of the progression from Deities and Demigods for Dragons and avang. It would seem to fit them a bit better overall than other sthings. Essentially in order to become a deity you would have to be epic level and if the DK progression didn't start until the divine ranks start to kick in.
Most DK seem to draw their power from their worshippers, whether it is by fear or love there does seem to be a correlation. Just a thought.
Also, the there isn't, to my knowledge, any correlation with the DK's and the worship from their people. They simply use that as a means of control. The power they have is directly related to Rajaat, his manipulating them with the Pristine Tower in conjunction with the Dark Lens, and their own progression through the metamorphosis process they are on. Templars don't ncessarily have to worship their Sorcerer-Monarch to get their power, it's just convienient for the Monarch to make them believe their subjects have to.
I believe that the original intent of what became the power that Templars had was supposed to be more in-line with something the Champions could give to a select few individuals in order to assist in their wars. Nothing like having healers and easily-controlled spellcasters augmenting your ranks while you hunt trolls, ogres, dwarves and the like.
Deities and Demigods on the other hand. . . .
Hmm I always saw Hammanu as deriving power from his followers, or at least having greater power because of those he 'protects'. The novels seemed to point in this direction too.
And I thought that templers got their power directly from their DK - again reference to the novels and their "praying for spells to be granted". Wasn't the description given having to do with him channeling through the templar and when Pavik used his symbol (I forgot what is was specifically called) he knew where he was and granted the spell with a word in his head "granted"?
Wasn't part of the DK maintaining their power related to performing sacrifices to the Dragon? Well, if they didn't he would pay them a visit I guess was the way it was presented.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I can see something like what is in Deities & Demigods being used to define the Champions of Rajaat, but not being used for Advanced Beings in general. After all, the Champions can grant spells to templars like a deity, even if they themselves cannot do it.
This distinction is very important. Unless I somehow loose a major argument ...
Hammanu, Nibenay, Daskinor et all have several different classes. Two of their epic level features are going to be "Champion of Rajaat" and "Dragon" ... They get the spellgranting ability from the "Champion of Rajaat" side of things ... and therefore, while there may be new Dragons, there aren't any new champions -- which means that, true to DS cannon, PCs won't ever have a chance start granting spells.
- bow and retire from your presence humbly -
Oh come on, we all know that PCs can be devious, disruptive elements. I'm sure they could come up with a way. Even if there are no more elemental vortices what about a PC coming up with a way to steal the vortex from an existing sorceror-king? Or perhaps Tithian was on the right track and Rajaat could grant that power to somebody?
Originally posted by Wintergreen
Or perhaps Tithian was on the right track and Rajaat could grant that power to somebody?
Any PCs that release Rajaat deserve what they get.
Originally posted by flip
This distinction is very important. Unless I somehow loose a major argument ...
Hammanu, Nibenay, Daskinor et all have several different classes. Two of their epic level features are going to be "Champion of Rajaat" and "Dragon" ... They get the spellgranting ability from the "Champion of Rajaat" side of things ... and therefore, while there may be new Dragons, there aren't any new champions -- which means that, true to DS cannon, PCs won't ever have a chance start granting spells.
I've always considered for d20 making the "Champion of Rajaat" be a template, while the Dragon being a PrC (or group of PrC's in my version of it). Rajaat infuses his Champions with energy that allows them to grant spells (and maybe a few other, hidden details they aren't aware of), while the process of becoming a Dragon is available to those few Defilers with Psionic capabilities to metamorphosize into something new.
I've always considered for d20 making the "Champion of Rajaat" be a template, while the Dragon being a PrC (or group of PrC's in my version of it). Rajaat infuses his Champions with energy that allows them to grant spells (and maybe a few other, hidden details they aren't aware of), while the process of becoming a Dragon is available to those few Defilers with Psionic capabilities to metamorphosize into something new.
I agree wholeheartedly. This is the model I am a proponent of.
Is the whole living elemental vortices still going to be used or are athas.org thinking of dropping that?