Black Knights - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Black Knights

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Nov 12, 2003 12:16:35 This post originally started on the FR's board. Basically I was searching for an example of a LE cavailer character. I was referrred to a Dragonlance reference, and having none of the source material myself so i figured i would ask the experts. Who were the Black Knights(Soth, Knight of the Black Rose?), and what would be a good behavior example of theirs that would show me an example of a LE cavalier type.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks
#2
Dragonhelm
Nov 12, 2003 12:26:09 While Soth is, indeed, the Knight of the Black Rose, I think you would benefit from looking into the Knights of Neraka (aka Dark Knights or Knights of Takhisis).

The Knights of Neraka are a LE group of knights who were founded on the principles of putting the knighthood before one's self. Mind you, the knights aren't what they used to be, but the principle is still there.

There are three orders to the Knights of Neraka.

Knights of the Lily are the warriors, and are probably the closest you will come to evil cavaliers.

Knights of the Thorn are arcane spellcasters who exist outside of the Wizards of High Sorcery.

Knights of the Skull are divine spellcasters. During the Chaos War, they were clerics of Takhisis, but afterward they have become mystics (a new core class for Dragonlance - basically the cleric equivalent of a sorcerer).

I'd love to go into further detail, but my time is short, so I'll let others jump in on this topic.

I would highly recommend picking up the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, which has info on the Knights of Neraka. If you can find a used first printing of The Second Generation, it has an appendix that fully details them as their original name, the Knights of Takhisis.

Hope that helps.
#3
zombiegleemax
Nov 12, 2003 12:28:02 Lord Soth was not a black knight per se...he was a good Knight (Knight of Solamnia) who turned bad and was cursed by the gods...

The black knights you are referring to might be the Dark Knights/Knights of Takhisis/Knights of Neraka...it´s an order of evil knights devoted to evil and honor (roughly speaking). Their religious focus is/was (depending on which era in Dragonlance you are playing) the evil goddess Takhisis...
#4
zombiegleemax
Nov 12, 2003 12:40:34 Can anyone give me a short example of their behavior....LE is difficult for me to wrap my brain around, then throw in words like honorable.....hmm, an honorable evil guy that obeys the law......wierd.....
#5
Matthew_L._Martin
Nov 12, 2003 12:56:26
Originally posted by bonegnasher
Can anyone give me a short example of their behavior....LE is difficult for me to wrap my brain around, then throw in words like honorable.....hmm, an honorable evil guy that obeys the law......wierd.....

They're actually very good examples of the Lawful Evil alignment as described in the 3.0 PH. The Knights of Takhisis/Neraka are committed to a totalitarian vision of the entire world and all souls unified in submission to the Dark Queen and the order she will establish through the Knights of Takhisis. Their concept of self-worth and the worth of others is rooted in fealty to the Code, the laws of the Dark Knights, and the Vision, a mystical experience that tells them where they fit into the Dark Queen's plans. Honor for them, judging from the examples given in several sources, is not so much an ideal as a useful tool for assuring success and maintaining discipline in the ranks and fealty to the cause. As for obeying the law, 'Lawful' in this sense refers not to obedience to the laws of society, but to their own code of conduct.

Matthew L. Martin
#6
zombiegleemax
Nov 12, 2003 13:06:55 here´s a link that might prove helpful :D

http://www.dragonlance.com/taladas/nexus/takhisis.html
#7
zombiegleemax
Nov 12, 2003 13:17:42 Thats the ticket. Thanks a bunch.

:D
#8
Dragonhelm
Nov 12, 2003 15:18:53 Honor is a tricky subject to tackle in general, let alone for evil knights. My best friend doesn’t care for the Knights of Neraka/Takhisis as he believes that one cannot be honorable yet evil at the same time.

Honor is based on a moral code that is often associated with law, although the two are not exactly the same. It is an inner code of what is right and wrong, and is often shaped by our own culture and life experiences.

Honor is seen in Dragonlance in the form of the Knights of Solamnia, Knights of Neraka/Takhisis, and the minotaurs.

Knights of Solamnia follow a moral code, which has been written down in the Measure. One must display loyalty and courage, protect the innocent, etc. etc. In many ways, they are your stereotypical knights. The Oath, on which the Measure is based, is “Est Sularus oth Mithas (My honor is my life.)”.

Knights of Takhisis/Neraka follow the tenets of the Blood Oath, the Code, and the Vision. Their code of honor was modeled after the Knights of Solamnia, although their purpose is to conquer. They put the knighthood above their individual wants and desires. This is a first for the cause of evil, as evil turns upon itself.

Minotaurs believe in a code of honor based on the idea that might makes right. Weakness of any form is considered dishonorable.

Knights of Takhisis/Neraka will commit evil acts, but they must abide by the Code. For example, they can murder a superior officer to advance in rank, but it would have to be a duel, rather than using poison. When combating an opponent, they cannot have more than two knights on any one opponent.

Matthew states that the Knights of Takhisis use honor as a tool, rather than actually living it. I think this is true for the Knights of Takhisis after the Chaos War, when Ariakan was no longer around, but in his time, I would say they lived honorably. Personally, I find it a shame that the Knights of Takhisis/Neraka have been diminished to being bullies.

If you want further examples of how honor can be applied, check out Legend of the Five Rings. In L5R, you have the samurai and shugenja classes. These classes follow a code of honor as well. In this case, it’s a code of servitude to the empire.

In each case, there are some similar themes. Only one or two people may attack a foe at once. Death in battle is hailed as honorable. Cowardice is dishonorable. Etc. etc.

So that’s honor in a nutshell.
#9
cam_banks
Nov 12, 2003 15:36:23 Honor is simply defined as living by principles which revolve around respect, personal integrity, and esteem. It doesn't necessarily imply good or evil actions, but in almost every case an honorable individual will not resort to lies or fraud.

One can be honorable as well as evil. Lawful evil knights place a high value in their word, their principles, and their status. They have no problem conquering or killing others in order to expand their interests, but they'll do it through up-front and forthright methods.

Minotaurs extend honor to those who they deem worthy of it. It's a common misconception to think that minotaur honor means they don't attack others without provocation or they believe in justice and so forth - if their enemy is not worthy, it would be useless to respect them. Humans (especially Ergothians) have largely earned the respect of minotaurs, for example - elves have not.

The Knights of Solamnia happen to be both honorable and good or noble in deed; they respect others, attempt to be honest and act in accordance with their moral codes. It doesn't make them nice, necessarily - you can be a gruff, antisocial bastard and still live an honorable life. But gruff antisocial Knights of Solamnia tend to be rare.

Cheers,
Cam
#10
zombiegleemax
Nov 12, 2003 15:40:04 I kinda miss the old Dark Knights Ariakan come back!!!! *sob sob*
#11
Dragonhelm
Nov 12, 2003 16:16:57
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
I kinda miss the old Dark Knights Ariakan come back!!!! *sob sob*

I agree wholeheartedly. They haven't been the same since Dragons of Summer Flame. :sad:
#12
Matthew_L._Martin
Nov 12, 2003 16:26:24
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Matthew states that the Knights of Takhisis use honor as a tool, rather than actually living it. I think this is true for the Knights of Takhisis after the Chaos War, when Ariakan was no longer around, but in his time, I would say they lived honorably.

Actually, that take on it comes largely from a line in DoSF, where Steel thinks that the KoT are taught to respect an enemy so as to avoid underestimating him. That kind of 'pragmatic honor' struck me as quite fitting for the Dark Knights.

IMO, the Dark Knights live up to their code of honor, or at least try to--but they do so because it makes them more effective servants of the Vision, not because of any virtue to honor in its own right.

Of course, I also take DoSF as the work of a chronicler who sympathized to large extent with the KoT ideals, despised the Knights of Solamnia, and swallowed most of the Dark Queen's lies about creation hook, line, and sinker. :-)

Matthew L. Martin
#13
Matthew_L._Martin
Nov 12, 2003 16:27:55 Ack. Double post.
#14
The_White_Sorcerer
Nov 12, 2003 16:35:47 Steel Brightblade was, obviously, a perfect example of a Dark Knight, and a perfect example of evil honor (or honorable evil, if you prefer).

He was not cruel, but he didn't show mercy to his enemies, although he did respect them. That, to me, is honorable evil.
#15
zombiegleemax
Nov 13, 2003 11:47:24 Lawful evil yes that is a tricky one.

The classic lawful evil character is a person who believe strongly in a social system ie. a society, but exploits it for his/her own perpouses.
I doesn't not nessecary have to a civiliztion or a citystate, a barbarian tribe could also have lawful members, the key element is thé thought of rules for inaction. That there are rules for interferring with others.
As the character is evil, the rules doesn't contain mercy, or equality.

A perfect exaple of a lawful evil lord is Strahd Von Zarovich, he rules his subjects with an iron hand, but he is fair, no one recieve his "judgement" unless they have broken the law, this applies both to noble and commen.
Altough he has no patience with lawbreakers, he still looks out for his people, no monsters are allowed to prey on the people, at least not in daytime.
#16
zombiegleemax
Nov 13, 2003 12:34:32 Well there are a few kinds of Lawful Evil...

There's Honorable Evil. I.E. the Dark Knights. We've already seen lots of honorable evil examples in this thread.

The other archetypal Lawful Evil is Devil Evil or Legal Evil. Legal Evil types follow the law to its letter but not its intent. They manipulate th esystem to their own ends. Obviously the Devils are the perfect examples of Legal Evil.
#17
Dragonhelm
Nov 13, 2003 13:55:50
Originally posted by L33t Angel
The other archetypal Lawful Evil is Devil Evil or Legal Evil. Legal Evil types follow the law to its letter but not its intent. They manipulate th esystem to their own ends. Obviously the Devils are the perfect examples of Legal Evil.

Lawyers and politicians....

Er....

;)
#18
ferratus
Nov 13, 2003 14:00:56 No, I think those are the devil's advocates. ;)
#19
dryhte
Dec 01, 2003 7:44:16
Originally posted by Cam Banks

The Knights of Solamnia happen to be both honorable and good or noble in deed; they respect others, attempt to be honest and act in accordance with their moral codes. It doesn't make them nice, necessarily - you can be a gruff, antisocial bastard and still live an honorable life. But gruff antisocial Knights of Solamnia tend to be rare.

Cheers,
Cam

Derek, for instance. (Dragons of Winter Night) Can't stand him. He's gruff, arrogant, stupid,... bah. Sorry, I had to share this
#20
darthsylver
Dec 01, 2003 8:05:07 Ancient samurai could also be a good example. Some of these samurai served evil lords. Samurai would pledge their duty to certain families and even though in the beginning the lord of the family might be good, but if that lord died and is replaced by an evil lord the samurai would still be obligated to obey the orders of the new lord, even if wrong. Those who would do their duty but rebel on the inside could be considered Lawful Good, and those who have no problem following the orders would be considered Lawful Evil.
#21
dryhte
Dec 01, 2003 9:53:05 rather lawful neutral, imho... since they had no qualms following the previous, good lord either: they follow their lord as he represents the Law, and whether he does good or evil things, they still owe him loyalty.
#22
darthsylver
Dec 01, 2003 9:59:22 Well what I was trying to say is this, when the LG lord of the clan told the samurai to take control of the village the LG samurai would try and subdue the village without violence, where as the LE samurai would kill any who stood in his way to achieve what the lord commanded. With the LE lord of the clan who say destroy the village the LG samurai would destroy the village but probably commit seppuku (ritual suicide) after, where as the LE samurai would destroy the village and be done with it.
#23
dryhte
Dec 01, 2003 11:01:49 Yeah. I think that's about it.

Anyway, I think the lawful 'honorable' evil way of the knights of Neraka is strangely appealing to me, though I never cared much for paladins and their ilk

I think I'd enjoy _playing_ a Thorn knight immensely.
'Feel nothing but victory'... wow...
#24
darthsylver
Dec 01, 2003 12:34:38 I know what you mean dryhte. I am putting together an adventure for the DL DM screen contest and the main antagonist is going to be a thorn knight gone solo.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Nov 12, 2003 12:16:35	This post originally started on the FR's board. Basically I was searching for an example of a LE cavailer character. I was referrred to a Dragonlance reference, and having none of the source material myself so i figured i would ask the experts. Who were the Black Knights(Soth, Knight of the Black Rose?), and what would be a good behavior example of theirs that would show me an example of a LE cavalier type. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks
#2 Dragonhelm Nov 12, 2003 12:26:09	While Soth is, indeed, the Knight of the Black Rose, I think you would benefit from looking into the Knights of Neraka (aka Dark Knights or Knights of Takhisis). The Knights of Neraka are a LE group of knights who were founded on the principles of putting the knighthood before one's self. Mind you, the knights aren't what they used to be, but the principle is still there. There are three orders to the Knights of Neraka. Knights of the Lily are the warriors, and are probably the closest you will come to evil cavaliers. Knights of the Thorn are arcane spellcasters who exist outside of the Wizards of High Sorcery. Knights of the Skull are divine spellcasters. During the Chaos War, they were clerics of Takhisis, but afterward they have become mystics (a new core class for Dragonlance - basically the cleric equivalent of a sorcerer). I'd love to go into further detail, but my time is short, so I'll let others jump in on this topic. I would highly recommend picking up the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, which has info on the Knights of Neraka. If you can find a used first printing of The Second Generation, it has an appendix that fully details them as their original name, the Knights of Takhisis. Hope that helps.
#3 zombiegleemax Nov 12, 2003 12:28:02	Lord Soth was not a black knight per se...he was a good Knight (Knight of Solamnia) who turned bad and was cursed by the gods... The black knights you are referring to might be the Dark Knights/Knights of Takhisis/Knights of Neraka...it´s an order of evil knights devoted to evil and honor (roughly speaking). Their religious focus is/was (depending on which era in Dragonlance you are playing) the evil goddess Takhisis...
#4 zombiegleemax Nov 12, 2003 12:40:34	Can anyone give me a short example of their behavior....LE is difficult for me to wrap my brain around, then throw in words like honorable.....hmm, an honorable evil guy that obeys the law......wierd.....
#5 Matthew_L._Martin Nov 12, 2003 12:56:26	Originally posted by bonegnasher Can anyone give me a short example of their behavior....LE is difficult for me to wrap my brain around, then throw in words like honorable.....hmm, an honorable evil guy that obeys the law......wierd..... They're actually very good examples of the Lawful Evil alignment as described in the 3.0 PH. The Knights of Takhisis/Neraka are committed to a totalitarian vision of the entire world and all souls unified in submission to the Dark Queen and the order she will establish through the Knights of Takhisis. Their concept of self-worth and the worth of others is rooted in fealty to the Code, the laws of the Dark Knights, and the Vision, a mystical experience that tells them where they fit into the Dark Queen's plans. Honor for them, judging from the examples given in several sources, is not so much an ideal as a useful tool for assuring success and maintaining discipline in the ranks and fealty to the cause. As for obeying the law, 'Lawful' in this sense refers not to obedience to the laws of society, but to their own code of conduct. Matthew L. Martin
#6 zombiegleemax Nov 12, 2003 13:06:55	here´s a link that might prove helpful :D http://www.dragonlance.com/taladas/nexus/takhisis.html
#7 zombiegleemax Nov 12, 2003 13:17:42	Thats the ticket. Thanks a bunch. :D
#8 Dragonhelm Nov 12, 2003 15:18:53	Honor is a tricky subject to tackle in general, let alone for evil knights. My best friend doesn’t care for the Knights of Neraka/Takhisis as he believes that one cannot be honorable yet evil at the same time. Honor is based on a moral code that is often associated with law, although the two are not exactly the same. It is an inner code of what is right and wrong, and is often shaped by our own culture and life experiences. Honor is seen in Dragonlance in the form of the Knights of Solamnia, Knights of Neraka/Takhisis, and the minotaurs. Knights of Solamnia follow a moral code, which has been written down in the Measure. One must display loyalty and courage, protect the innocent, etc. etc. In many ways, they are your stereotypical knights. The Oath, on which the Measure is based, is “Est Sularus oth Mithas (My honor is my life.)”. Knights of Takhisis/Neraka follow the tenets of the Blood Oath, the Code, and the Vision. Their code of honor was modeled after the Knights of Solamnia, although their purpose is to conquer. They put the knighthood above their individual wants and desires. This is a first for the cause of evil, as evil turns upon itself. Minotaurs believe in a code of honor based on the idea that might makes right. Weakness of any form is considered dishonorable. Knights of Takhisis/Neraka will commit evil acts, but they must abide by the Code. For example, they can murder a superior officer to advance in rank, but it would have to be a duel, rather than using poison. When combating an opponent, they cannot have more than two knights on any one opponent. Matthew states that the Knights of Takhisis use honor as a tool, rather than actually living it. I think this is true for the Knights of Takhisis after the Chaos War, when Ariakan was no longer around, but in his time, I would say they lived honorably. Personally, I find it a shame that the Knights of Takhisis/Neraka have been diminished to being bullies. If you want further examples of how honor can be applied, check out Legend of the Five Rings. In L5R, you have the samurai and shugenja classes. These classes follow a code of honor as well. In this case, it’s a code of servitude to the empire. In each case, there are some similar themes. Only one or two people may attack a foe at once. Death in battle is hailed as honorable. Cowardice is dishonorable. Etc. etc. So that’s honor in a nutshell.
#9 cam_banks Nov 12, 2003 15:36:23	Honor is simply defined as living by principles which revolve around respect, personal integrity, and esteem. It doesn't necessarily imply good or evil actions, but in almost every case an honorable individual will not resort to lies or fraud. One can be honorable as well as evil. Lawful evil knights place a high value in their word, their principles, and their status. They have no problem conquering or killing others in order to expand their interests, but they'll do it through up-front and forthright methods. Minotaurs extend honor to those who they deem worthy of it. It's a common misconception to think that minotaur honor means they don't attack others without provocation or they believe in justice and so forth - if their enemy is not worthy, it would be useless to respect them. Humans (especially Ergothians) have largely earned the respect of minotaurs, for example - elves have not. The Knights of Solamnia happen to be both honorable and good or noble in deed; they respect others, attempt to be honest and act in accordance with their moral codes. It doesn't make them nice, necessarily - you can be a gruff, antisocial bastard and still live an honorable life. But gruff antisocial Knights of Solamnia tend to be rare. Cheers, Cam
#10 zombiegleemax Nov 12, 2003 15:40:04	I kinda miss the old Dark Knights Ariakan come back!!!! sob sob
#11 Dragonhelm Nov 12, 2003 16:16:57	Originally posted by Ravenmantle I kinda miss the old Dark Knights Ariakan come back!!!! sob sob I agree wholeheartedly. They haven't been the same since Dragons of Summer Flame. :sad:
#12 Matthew_L._Martin Nov 12, 2003 16:26:24	Originally posted by Dragonhelm Matthew states that the Knights of Takhisis use honor as a tool, rather than actually living it. I think this is true for the Knights of Takhisis after the Chaos War, when Ariakan was no longer around, but in his time, I would say they lived honorably. Actually, that take on it comes largely from a line in DoSF, where Steel thinks that the KoT are taught to respect an enemy so as to avoid underestimating him. That kind of 'pragmatic honor' struck me as quite fitting for the Dark Knights. IMO, the Dark Knights live up to their code of honor, or at least try to--but they do so because it makes them more effective servants of the Vision, not because of any virtue to honor in its own right. Of course, I also take DoSF as the work of a chronicler who sympathized to large extent with the KoT ideals, despised the Knights of Solamnia, and swallowed most of the Dark Queen's lies about creation hook, line, and sinker. :-) Matthew L. Martin
#13 Matthew_L._Martin Nov 12, 2003 16:27:55	Ack. Double post.
#14 The_White_Sorcerer Nov 12, 2003 16:35:47	Steel Brightblade was, obviously, a perfect example of a Dark Knight, and a perfect example of evil honor (or honorable evil, if you prefer). He was not cruel, but he didn't show mercy to his enemies, although he did respect them. That, to me, is honorable evil.
#15 zombiegleemax Nov 13, 2003 11:47:24	Lawful evil yes that is a tricky one. The classic lawful evil character is a person who believe strongly in a social system ie. a society, but exploits it for his/her own perpouses. I doesn't not nessecary have to a civiliztion or a citystate, a barbarian tribe could also have lawful members, the key element is thé thought of rules for inaction. That there are rules for interferring with others. As the character is evil, the rules doesn't contain mercy, or equality. A perfect exaple of a lawful evil lord is Strahd Von Zarovich, he rules his subjects with an iron hand, but he is fair, no one recieve his "judgement" unless they have broken the law, this applies both to noble and commen. Altough he has no patience with lawbreakers, he still looks out for his people, no monsters are allowed to prey on the people, at least not in daytime.
#16 zombiegleemax Nov 13, 2003 12:34:32	Well there are a few kinds of Lawful Evil... There's Honorable Evil. I.E. the Dark Knights. We've already seen lots of honorable evil examples in this thread. The other archetypal Lawful Evil is Devil Evil or Legal Evil. Legal Evil types follow the law to its letter but not its intent. They manipulate th esystem to their own ends. Obviously the Devils are the perfect examples of Legal Evil.
#17 Dragonhelm Nov 13, 2003 13:55:50	Originally posted by L33t Angel The other archetypal Lawful Evil is Devil Evil or Legal Evil. Legal Evil types follow the law to its letter but not its intent. They manipulate th esystem to their own ends. Obviously the Devils are the perfect examples of Legal Evil. Lawyers and politicians.... Er.... ;)
#18 ferratus Nov 13, 2003 14:00:56	No, I think those are the devil's advocates. ;)
#19 dryhte Dec 01, 2003 7:44:16	Originally posted by Cam Banks The Knights of Solamnia happen to be both honorable and good or noble in deed; they respect others, attempt to be honest and act in accordance with their moral codes. It doesn't make them nice, necessarily - you can be a gruff, antisocial bastard and still live an honorable life. But gruff antisocial Knights of Solamnia tend to be rare. Cheers, Cam Derek, for instance. (Dragons of Winter Night) Can't stand him. He's gruff, arrogant, stupid,... bah. Sorry, I had to share this
#20 darthsylver Dec 01, 2003 8:05:07	Ancient samurai could also be a good example. Some of these samurai served evil lords. Samurai would pledge their duty to certain families and even though in the beginning the lord of the family might be good, but if that lord died and is replaced by an evil lord the samurai would still be obligated to obey the orders of the new lord, even if wrong. Those who would do their duty but rebel on the inside could be considered Lawful Good, and those who have no problem following the orders would be considered Lawful Evil.
#21 dryhte Dec 01, 2003 9:53:05	rather lawful neutral, imho... since they had no qualms following the previous, good lord either: they follow their lord as he represents the Law, and whether he does good or evil things, they still owe him loyalty.
#22 darthsylver Dec 01, 2003 9:59:22	Well what I was trying to say is this, when the LG lord of the clan told the samurai to take control of the village the LG samurai would try and subdue the village without violence, where as the LE samurai would kill any who stood in his way to achieve what the lord commanded. With the LE lord of the clan who say destroy the village the LG samurai would destroy the village but probably commit seppuku (ritual suicide) after, where as the LE samurai would destroy the village and be done with it.
#23 dryhte Dec 01, 2003 11:01:49	Yeah. I think that's about it. Anyway, I think the lawful 'honorable' evil way of the knights of Neraka is strangely appealing to me, though I never cared much for paladins and their ilk I think I'd enjoy _playing_ a Thorn knight immensely. 'Feel nothing but victory'... wow...
#24 darthsylver Dec 01, 2003 12:34:38	I know what you mean dryhte. I am putting together an adventure for the DL DM screen contest and the main antagonist is going to be a thorn knight gone solo.