Link
Although, frankly, Gygax's few jabs at other authors were minor, and somewhat in jest, but distinctly grade-school in level. I was rather expecting more than just "Rotten Realms," "Dork Sun" and "From the A$$es" as his 'witty insults.'
Ah well.
It won't change my opinion of him, I still respect most of his work.
Glorfinden
Be afraid, be very afraid!
--Erik Mona
Originally posted by Erik Mona
If someone "blew up" my personal campaign setting the same way Greyhawk was "blown up" post Gary Gygax, I'd probably hold the update in low regard, as well.
--Erik Mona
Very diplomatic, but...
I think it's time to tell the whiners where to go, I tried, but lord hypocrasy, the moderator of the DF deemed to smite his wrath upon me.
Erik, I distinctly remember an incident where you shared some details of the (ill fated) attempt to woo Gygax into writing for dragon with Maria (my better half, for those out of the loop.)
Mar went on and posted said details on enworld, and given that they reflected quite poorly on Mr. Gygax, you urgently asked her to remove them, as an act of professional courtesy. She did so as a favor to you, since you were her source.
Where is that professional courtesy on Gygax's part?
No, instead he's going to jump on the popular bandwagon over at that pathetic excuse for a "forum" (which should be, by definition, a place for free discussion, but as anyone who was paying attention tonight can see, their feeble excuse for a moderator has ensured that no real dialogue will ever happen, since if you disagree or question the status qou, your posts will be deleted.) and attack your work, and by proxy, ours, the fans who embrace the work Carl, Roger and yall did for the setting and create our own material from.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
If someone "blew up" my personal campaign setting the same way Greyhawk was "blown up" post Gary Gygax, I'd probably hold the update in low regard, as well.
--Erik Mona
Compared to the literal way he blew it up in the novels?
Gary (and his fanboy hitsquad) are the first to point out that published greyhawk was never the same as his personal setting, it was a published derivative.
I have to say though, he sure as hell can't make a good joke. No wonder Greyhawk is all grim and dark and "gray".
And yes Delglath, he was a butt.
Originally posted by Greyhack
Where is that professional courtesy on Gygax's part?
No, instead he's going to jump on the popular bandwagon over at that pathetic excuse for a "forum" (which should be, by definition, a place for free discussion, but as anyone who was paying attention tonight can see, their feeble excuse for a moderator has ensured that no real dialogue will ever happen, since if you disagree or question the status qou, your posts will be deleted.) and attack your work, and by proxy, ours, the fans who embrace the work Carl, Roger and yall did for the setting and create our own material from.
:D It's called being a bitter old man.
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625
:D It's called being a bitter old man.
That is, in essence, what I said to Gygax in response to his attack on post "Golly! I was a bumbling businessman and ineptly let my company be taken away" era greyhawk.
Apparently, that type of language is not acceptable to DF's audience, even after I removed the liberal dose of profanity in the original.
You should go flog yourself for daring to question one such as Gygax, I am off to do so now myself...
I think he clearly cares for the parts of the setting that he personally created and the fans of such. It's his perogative to dislike the rest.
If you have a bone to pick, write him a letter. Otherwise, grow up and stop acting like someone just peed in your cheerios.
Exactly. If some guy in Wisconsin not liking Dark Sun really makes you that upset, you need a serious reality check.
After the Lejendary Journeys fiasco, I'll pass on Castle Zagyg. No more chances for His Highness.
Most of those fanboys are nauseating. Have some freaking dignity...
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
it just shows that Gary is human... big deal, most of us already knew that... designers saying unflattering things about ewach other is realy nothing that new.
No, it shows that he has zero respect for any other authors and is willing to publicaly display that lack of respect. Like was previously said, it is simple, professional courtesy. Gygax has never, IMO, been a professional, and never will be.
Of course, ask him what he thinks of himself and he'll tell you he's one of THE greatest and most experienced writers in the world that ever was... and no, I'm not kidding, if you're willing to dig through the archives of his Q&A thread on EN World, you can find the post where I argued with him and where he proclaimed that very thing.
Some of his work is good. Some of his work isn't. But at the end of the day, regardless of either, he's a butt.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
If someone "blew up" my personal campaign setting the same way Greyhawk was "blown up" post Gary Gygax, I'd probably hold the update in low regard, as well.
--Erik Mona
Very professional of you. If I were in your position, I doubt I could be so nice. Which is probably why I'll never be in your position
Originally posted by Erik Mona
If someone "blew up" my personal campaign setting the same way Greyhawk was "blown up" post Gary Gygax, I'd probably hold the update in low regard, as well.
--Erik Mona
If that's really all there is to it, then maybe he should have kept Greyhawk as his homebrew.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
If someone "blew up" my personal campaign setting the same way Greyhawk was "blown up" post Gary Gygax, I'd probably hold the update in low regard, as well.
--Erik Mona
I have to agree with Greyhack on the novel point. It seemed both "forces" were determined to toss the Greyhawk puppy into the river in a tied bag of rocks.
Also, in respect and defense of Sargent, he was following what Gygax was heading towards all along with the "Greyhawk's World" articles he wrote in early dragon magazines.
I still like Gygax, though I don't think he should ever have total control of Greyhawk again. Though it would be nice if he made a few supplements that were promised in the elder days of D&D, such as a Rookroost boxed set or something.
And I really wish that Sargent would come and get the pile of money that you said you are willing to give him for writing stuff, but until that time, you will and have been doing fine.
Now just get us another Greyhawk sourcebook or module.
Halber
With all due respect, Erik, Greyhawk (as we see it now as part of WotC) ceased to be his 'personal campaign' when he lost legal control of it way back when. Can't say I wouldn't be bitter about that either (regardless of the circumstances under which I lost the IP), but really, I think it's bad form to badmouth newer authors and such in public. Not very proferssional, IMHO.
Originally posted by StevieS
Pretty much everyone here will have posted something similar in tone at some stage so all he's guilty of is being human like the rest of us. Its not exactly a shock so I'm not quite sure why it warrants so much comment either way.
My only point here was that Gygax's comments wre a little tacky.
The other editors of canonfire and I sometimes disagree, quite heatedly, on different things, but we all try and keep those 'beefs' from being aired publicly. Even, no, especially the staff members (and there are more than 1) who are no longer part of the staff are granted this courtesy, and the details of their departure are not aired publicly by either party.
That's all I was suggesting to Gygax, take one for the team, give the guys who are at the helm now a little encouragement.
Now with that said, might I add that regardless of what Gygax believes. I actually enjoy Sargents work better than his ownin many circumstances. I still appreciate what Gygax did for gaming, but I don't see him as the Great author many others see him as being.
Nuff, said!
Certainly a lot of Gary's most ardent fans think so, but the fact is that the modern Greyhawk is built on a foundation created by Gary Gygax. Despite how people might feel about Gary personally, it strikes me as counter-productive to malign the work of the setting's creator, since none of us would have the Greyhawk we love if not for Gary's efforts.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon Magazine
>>>
No, instead he's going to jump on the popular bandwagon over at that pathetic excuse for a "forum" (which should be, by definition, a place for free discussion, but as anyone who was paying attention tonight can see, their feeble excuse for a moderator has ensured that no real dialogue will ever happen, since if you disagree or question the status qou, your posts will be deleted.) and attack your work, and by proxy, ours, the fans who embrace the work Carl, Roger and yall did for the setting and create our own material from.
>>>
Now, I haven't been following all of the various Gygax threads on Dragonsfoot or elsewhere, but when I went to the link provided in this thread, all I saw from Gary Gygax was a lukewarm insult calling an old boxed set "From the Asses."
I'm not at all sure how that is an attack on my work, the work of others such as Rich and the Canonfire folks, or Roger Moore. It is a slam on Carl Sargent, but a mild one at best and one that seems pretty easy to forgive.
Perhaps I missed a post?
--Erik Mona
I love the early greyhawk stuff, except for a few minor things I changed or ignored, and when there is nothing new to invalidate it or a consistency problem arises, out comes the 83 boxed set and old modules to set the record straight.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
Now, I haven't been following all of the various Gygax threads on Dragonsfoot or elsewhere, but when I went to the link provided in this thread, all I saw from Gary Gygax was a lukewarm insult calling an old boxed set "From the Asses."
No, same post, right below that, he said "but seriously, my only real gripe is with the folks who ruined greyhawk after my departure, the rest is in jest" or something to that effect. That's what bothered me.
The tone of his attacks on Ed Greenwood there make that statement pretty harsh, imo, if he's only terasing about Ed but has a real gripe with greyhawk authors, god forbid...
PS: I only mean this in jest, like Gygax means his comments about Greenwood etc. "in jest."
No, same post, right below that, he said "but seriously, my only real gripe is with the folks who ruined greyhawk after my departure, the rest is in jest" or something to that effect. That's what bothered me.
>>>
Does anyone disagree that Greyhawk was, essentially, "ruined" (immediately) after Gygax left TSR? I mean, is the polarization of Internet arguments _really_ forcing us to defend the era of the "joke" Castle Greyhawk, Puppets, Childsplay, etc?
I sure hope not. Because that would be dumb. ;)
--Erik
Originally posted by Erik Mona I mean, is the polarization of Internet arguments _really_ forcing us to defend the era of the "joke" Castle Greyhawk, Puppets, Childsplay, etc?
--Erik [/b]
Please don't swear, using words like that on a GH forum only cause offence
Originally posted by Erik Mona
Does anyone disagree that Greyhawk was, essentially, "ruined" (immediately) after Gygax left TSR? I mean, is the polarization of Internet arguments _really_ forcing us to defend the era of the "joke" Castle Greyhawk, Puppets, Childsplay, etc?
I sure hope not. Because that would be dumb. ;)
--Erik
Well, that's a good point. It also brings to mind this point: how could Gygax be anything but disappointed about the limbo that the setting now finds itself in? I can see how he might feel like everyone responsible for the setting after him is responsible for bringing it to its current state. (I would, however, quibble over using the word "ruined" to describe the entirety of post-Gygax Greyhawk, but like I said, I can see how he might feel that way.)
Originally posted by Erik Mona
Does anyone disagree that Greyhawk was, essentially, "ruined" (immediately) after Gygax left TSR? I mean, is the polarization of Internet arguments _really_ forcing us to defend the era of the "joke" Castle Greyhawk, Puppets, Childsplay, etc?
How does that invalidate Carl's work? Or your work? Or Holian of the Errors work? Or any of the GreyTalkers who contributed to the LGG? Or Creighton's work or anyone else that has contributed to the LGJ?
He made a blanket statement that therefore included all of the above.
It must also be noted that this is not the first time he's made such derogatory comments. I've witnessed him deride other authors before, admittedly not in such a blatent manner, however the intent behind the comments was clear.
What does this mean to GH or FR?
Well, it has given me a more believable and clarified approach.
If it has been published in an "official" source, be it a game product or in a magazine; I use it as is. To me, it doesn't matter if one "edition" does something one way and another "edition" does it another way...I'll use whatever is more entertaining.
Yeah, that is what it is all about: I'll use what I *believe* is the most fun for me. If I want something different, I'll alternate between the campaign worlds and use the rules as is.
Gary takes a shot at Greenwood and FR (novels), not exactly unheard of within the GH community. When admonished over this he jokingly plays with the titles of other campaign products. Then he seriously reflects that "My only real gripe is with the old TSR group that screwed up the WoG setting, of course. The rest is just in fun;)" That means that he doesn't include the the current activity with GH or the FtA-era. The old TSR group does not include anyone so eagerly defended in this thread.
I wonder how the fun had by Gary could possibly be interpreted that "Gygax has absolutely ZERO care for the Greyhawk setting or it's fans"? I also find it disturbing that this campaign setting can cause so much heated emotions that coming to this forum and reading posts here is a great turn-off. Stop rehashing old grudges and get on with Greyhawk!
Kudos to Erik Mona for his posts in this thread.
M
And as for the "ruined" setting, *shrug* Sure there was some hokey crap in the immediate Gygax-less era but there were a few things that Gygax put out I found rather hokey as well.
Some of the newer stuff has been great, I think my most used source book is probably the Slavers one, never ran the slavers campaign but it's a great sourcebook for the region.
Like anything else that has endured so long, you're gonna see good and you're gonna see bad. Apparently there's been enough good to keep so many of us clinging on all these years.
I believe Gary was responding to others in the thread. The stabs at other authors began with Geneweigel on page 2.
Gary then commented on Gene's post and it seems to have devolved from there.
Note that inn all of Gary's comments that have a jab here and there he has a ;) at the end. ( Both of his posts on page 2 do. )
On page 3 his first post is just saying hi to someone else, and he does try to stay above the storm brewing. No jabs.
His 2nd post on page 3 tries to bring the topic back on topic by posting a tidbit of information. No jabs
Page 4, 1st post he talks a bit about some cons and experiences there. No jabs.
2nd post on Page 4, okay he is obviously retorting the previous poster here, though he does include the ;) and some jabs.
3rd post on Page 4 he basically answers a question by a previous poster, in other words it wasn't Robilar who found that entrance, since Rob was Co-DMing. No jabs.
Page 5, 1st post he is commenting on a previous poster's questions. Not only what he posted there but since WotC owns the rights to World of Greyhawk and all things generated it is possible it would own the names to some of those that fell there.
2nd Post on Page 5, indicates he's still reading, and that he has directed Rob to visit the thread as well.
Okay from reading this I do think the moderator perhaps was slow to call an end to the trolling and off topic discussions. It probably should have been done on page 2 but he did do it on page 5 and from that point on you don't see any jabs.
I can sympathize with Gary, he was most likely hurt by the direction TSR took his world after his departure. In fact in the Gord the Rogue books he was so displeased that he destroyed the world. Most of us have some attachment to our writings even after they are ours no more.
Having never met Gary I can't say how he comes across. But from his posts I can see he was trying to let people know he was jesting with the ;). That he wasn't trying to be serious. It would have been better had he not made the post, but he's human like we all are.
Some folks don't know it but Erik Mona and I have bumped heads before online. Back on Monte Cook's boards. He might not remember but I do. However I find that he conducts himself very professionally on these boards for WotC.
Were it not for Mr. Mona and a few others, the world of Greyhawk as a published work would cease in short order. The main problem is that it has never gotten the advertising and coverage that Forgotten Realms did. Someone made a determination that Forgotten Realms would be the D&D world back when Gary was kicked out. They dumped all their advertising ( well a large percentage ) into FR, then waited for it to happen. Within a year or two Greyhawk was almost little more than a memory as for a published setting.
There has been one attempt to resurrect it fully since then. However event then adequet advertising was not put forth, and while the sales were good enough for that time, it was not good enough to continue supporting the setting 2 years later when 3rd Edition came out.
It was then relegated to the 'default' world of D&D 3rd Edition. A world that has no official support from WotC save for a few borrowed deities in the CORE rulebooks and a few PrC dedicated to them. This hardly makes for a default world, it might propose a few necesitties but it does not do well for the world itslelf.
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer was an excellent read I thought and did nicely to bring the many gods and their histroy back to the knowledge of players. However it wasn't produced in great numbers campared to the others and as such not everyone has had a chance to read it.
Anyway I can empathize with Gary. In some ways I was relieved not to win the contest for the new setting. Indeed looking back I am happy I didn't. Because in losing I retained control over my world, although I've had assistant and co DMs before.
In all fairness I'd say there are times that Ed Greenwood wishes he hadn't sold the rights to FR.
The difference with Eberron is that nothing really existed, it was made for the contest, thus there was nothing to lose. Still it looks promising as well.
Gary's got a chip on his shoulder. Pure fact. I can't beleive anyone is surprised by this anymore.
Gary's got a chip on his shoulder. Pure fact. I can't beleive anyone is surprised by this anymore.
Yep. I can't say I blame him - but honestly to me he is coming across rather bitter. When that happens I stop taking him seriously.
As for lame GH material after he left... yeah there was some lame material. No doubt about it. There was some lame FR material too. In fact ALOT of material TSR was putting out was pure crap at the time.
I personally think From The Ashes (or "Asses" as EGG put it) was a decent product. One of the few being put out at the time. I like the Ivid the Undying supplement even though it never saw print.
So my opinion is that things change, EGG lost his part of the company... A LONG TIME AGO - get over it and move on. All it does is make him look petty and bitter, and I can't take that seriously.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
I respect Carl Sargent's Greyhawk work as much or more than that of anyone save Gygax, whom I believe deserves respect as both the creator of the game and the setting we all love. Respecting Gygax's work and vision for the setting and appreciating the creativity of creators who came after are not mutually exclusive, at least in my view.
Certainly a lot of Gary's most ardent fans think so, but the fact is that the modern Greyhawk is built on a foundation created by Gary Gygax. Despite how people might feel about Gary personally, it strikes me as counter-productive to malign the work of the setting's creator, since none of us would have the Greyhawk we love if not for Gary's efforts.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon Magazine
Well said, Erik.
Originally posted by ctuttle
Yep. I can't say I blame him - but honestly to me he is coming across rather bitter. When that happens I stop taking him seriously.
So my opinion is that things change, EGG lost his part of the company... A LONG TIME AGO - get over it and move on. All it does is make him look petty and bitter, and I can't take that seriously.
It's not really my place to make him bury any hatchets, but I think he would be better off to do so, at least publically. He'd probably live longer too unless he really is the type who thrives on stress.
And we'd all be better off not to be snobs about particular campaign settings, rule sets, and all that garbage. We're already on the fringes of society as freaks and geeks, we don't need to try to marginalize each other and our personal preferences within our own gaming community... except maybe the furries ;) .
I don't understand why gamers are so fractious. At a gaming club reunion (of sorts) at my old college, we were asked by a current student if the members of the organization bickered so much when we were there. We just kind of laughed because it was clear that nothing had changed after 5 years, nor would it be likely to change in 100 years.
I also wonder if the internet and its relative anonymity, especially with online discussion groups, has increased the tendency to be rude and fractious.
It's a lot easer to be an ass when you don't have to worry about being slugged in the face for it.that means...
1. Not enough people are posting new topics...
and
2. People are still lingering on this stale topic!
and
3. I just bumped it bcuz I felt the need to make a point
/grumble /grumble
We have posters like Porphyrogenitus cutting up Greenwood on these boards because he thinks the creator of the Realms having a right to hold a personal opinion to be "arrogant" and "rude." We have SO much unnecessary upset in this thread over Gary Gygax's comments (and yes, he shouldn't have set the match in the first place).
I wish people would post campaign suggestions, or speculations about near-future events in Greyhawk or the Realms, NPCs we should watch, stuff like that.
Instead of plunging knives into other gamers. :{