How long is too long, and how short is too short for the Guide to Sigil when its released, in your opinions?
Is there such a thing as too much information on places, or people, or guilds, etc? Do you prefer more details set out, or more brief descriptions to allow more room for you to add things in your own games?
At the moment, the Sigil draft is about to top 100 pages single space, and there's some concern from certain bloods who shall remain unnamed *winks* that perhaps I went a bit overboard on both detail and verbosity in parts.
So whats your feeling on the questions I've posed so far? And is 100 pages too daunting for some of you? Or might it be too daunting for n00bs to the setting?
As evangelizing for Planescape as I try to be, I don't want to present material in a way that might be off putting towards newcomers.
*puts down the pen and preens slowly* 'And they said that 'other' Arcanaloth was the one good with writing. Hmph!'
I don't suppose there's a possibility of the 'long story' and the 'short story' being two seperate documents?
After all, you did all that writing, it would be a shame to waste it; but it would also be nice to have the hard and fast info at hand.
An abbreviated version of as many materials as possible would be lovely.
I mean: start with a bit generic stuff with the wards, for example, then go into more and more detail as the chapter(s) moves on.
Example:
1)Sigil(generic)
2)The wards
3)Each singular ward
3.1)More details as the chapter progress towards the end
and so on.
Just my suggestion.
And the total size...as much as you can make it, really, as long as it is relevant at all, that is.
Again thanks, and since I won't start revising till probably Monday or so, I'll keep checking back here to read any further opinions on the matter you all might have.
And oh... lest I forget ;)
(slips IC)
*deigns to read your opinions, then ignores them*
'I love me'
PS: Decided since I am the one asking most of the annoyingly newbie questions lately I needed to change my SN
I just thought it pertinant to actually ask the intended audience what their opinion was before I started mucking around with what I've already written
I haven't seen what you've written, so it's a bit hard to comment on it as is. Maybe if you give us, say, a link to the uncut guide so that we can make far more... useful... comments.
What's too long? More than three-hundred pages of the original Planescape materials were devoted to Sigil. We'll talk about what long might be once you hit 260 or so.
What's too short? Can you fit a Sigil primer on a pamphlet? I kid, I kid. More seriously, at the very least I want a summary of what's changed. Anything beyond that's gravy since I can still refer to the old books. Newcomers will probably want something akin to the thirty or so pages devoted to Sigil in Sigil and Beyond.
Is 100 pages daunting? Not really. I read through material in a cover-to-cover way once in a while, but more often I just browse and/or use it like a reference.
Is 100 pages a good length for a Sigil primer? No. It's way too long. Personally, I'd like something I could print and hand to someone. Not quite the pamphlet, but something short.
More detail, or more brief descriptions? I assume you're asking whether I want a few things in great detail or many things in little detail. I'll take the first option. If I'm going to be filling in the details anyway I may as well be botching one of my own ideas rather than yours.
Is there such thing as too much information about places, people, guilds, etc? I don't think it's possible to have crossed that line so long as what you're giving out is still either relevant or interesting.
Done.
As far as cutting it, as long as it has everything a newcomer would need, and enough to make anyone who knows the old planescape by heart happy, it should be fine.
Besides, seeing as its going to be individuals printing the book when its finished, and not a printing company, whats the point of cutting it?
I don't care how many pages of fluff are in it, since it'll be just as free whether it's a virtual pamphlet or 2048 pages of utter screed... so long as it's fun and useful screed.
Make it as big as it needs to be or wants to be, and just organise it well. And, just hypothetically, what'd happen to the subject of a reverse gravity spell in the Cage?
However if you houserule that spell in your own games to allow you to keep falling up, you'd eventually just hit the other side of the ring. Now it also calls into question, does the spell reverse gravity on the subject based on their own local gravity, or the initial gravity they're in? Because the gravity switches over past the center of the ring.
One interpretation of that would have them stuck at the center or bouncing back and forth to some extent while the spell was active. And when they spell ended, they might be stuck at the center till wind or some other event nudged them one way or another and they fell back to one side of the ring or the other.
Of course either way, they'd get an ever so fun look
outside the ring itself... However I would posit that you have to intentionally jump or fly 'out' of the ring itself, and with reverse gravity you wouldn't run the risk of being nudged one way or the other and leaping into oblivion or whatever it is exactly that lies beyond that border.
On the plus side, if this any of this did work you could get a fairly accurate measure of Sigil's diameter. That alone means, of course, that it won't.
(or audience, or whatever. I'm in the middle of a marketing training right now. bear with me)
If it's players new to the planescape game, keep it short. An overview of the wards, some interesting places. Nothing more.
If it's GM's, make it long. Add lots of flavor, rumors, secrets and anything that can be converted into a plot hook.
If it's hardcore planescape fans, keep it concise. Stick to canon. Add rumours and tidbits when apropriate, but keep it neat.
For example, a newbe player is going to feel daunted by more than two score pages. A hardcore fan will feel cheated, and scream for more. You simply can't please both with the same document.
The format the ps3e team chose does not seem to be geared towards any particular audience I listed *. Thta's ok, though. I'm certain there are a lot more possibilities.
*) For example, game mechanics such as feats and PrC allongside fairly in-depth faction information (which new players should probably not be aware of).
Now, for a truly odd theory. We know the Lady can close all the portals of Sigil, flay gods, fling bashers about time, and keep Powers out of Her city.
Is it a leap to suggest that, if She was really upset, then She could selectively ignore the gravity of the Cage for certain vexatious individuals? Dropping berks into the Outlands saves a Maze and some mess, after all.
And Shemeska, even though it's a little late and many have already said this, more is better, I think, as long as it all flows nicely and makes sense!
That way you can just print out what might be needed then, and leave out info you might not need immediately.
Also the amount of cant used is about low to medium throughout the text. There's also in character text blocks at the beginning of each Ward section, and for each important individual detailed in the persons of note section. Depending on the person in question, those are pretty thick with cant at times.
Hopefully the level of cant strikes a balance between hard care fans and people new to the planes. *smirk* That balance should suit you well Center-of-All.
There's a ton of prior canon material in there considering not everyone may have access to the older 2e books. And there of course are all the changes brought about with the conclusion of the Faction War, and the roughly 5 years that have passed in the setting since that time. Plot hooks galore.
Well... not for a while, anyway. Point would be, if you dropped something from Sigil then after an infinite period of time it would have accelerated to infinite speed. Once it reaches infinite speed, it can cover an infinite distance in a miniscule period of time, meaning that when Cager suicides do start raining down on the Athar, they'll be moving pretty quick. Of course, that won't actually happen until an infinite period of time has elapsed.
Assuming the sod has survived the infinitely long fall, they'd take 20d6 damage, one of which might be nonlethal.
Originally posted by Persephone Imytholin
Point would be, if you dropped something from Sigil then after an infinite period of time it would have accelerated to infinite speed.
Not quite. See, whatever Outlands gravity is will accelerate for a certain time, but when acceleration hits relativistic speeds mass increases, and eventually mass will be so much that gravity would have to exert an infinite force to accelerate any greater. Most likely, after an infinite amount of time, the poor sod would be going near lightspeed (dilating time, so it takes even longer), and eventually traverse the infinite distance. The point is that when this does happen the Athar are in trouble. (The Rilmani aren't, they saw it coming.)
Originally posted by Bob the Efreet
Not quite. See, whatever Outlands gravity is will accelerate for a certain time, but when acceleration hits relativistic speeds mass increases, and eventually mass will be so much that gravity would have to exert an infinite force to accelerate any greater. Most likely, after an infinite amount of time, the poor sod would be going near lightspeed (dilating time, so it takes even longer), and eventually traverse the infinite distance. The point is that when this does happen the Athar are in trouble. (The Rilmani aren't, they saw it coming.)
Of course we'd see it coming. But why would the Athar be in trouble? Are you sure we'd let them be affected by this?
More seriously, though, with as many people out there as there are who believe in and worship the powers, who's to say that the rilmani aren't offering a sort of protection to the Athar. The Athar's non-belief in the powers offers a very strong balance to the belief of a lot of other people. After all, there is quite a bit more to balance than simple matters of good vs. evil and law vs. chaos.
*cackles after having managed to hijack yet another thread from its original topic*
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
As I'm faced with making additions and or cuts to some material for PS3e, I want to ask your opinion on some of it.
How long is too long, and how short is too short for the Guide to Sigil when its released, in your opinions?
Is there such a thing as too much information on places, or people, or guilds, etc? Do you prefer more details set out, or more brief descriptions to allow more room for you to add things in your own games?
At the moment, the Sigil draft is about to top 100 pages single space, and there's some concern from certain bloods who shall remain unnamed *winks* that perhaps I went a bit overboard on both detail and verbosity in parts.
So whats your feeling on the questions I've posed so far? And is 100 pages too daunting for some of you? Or might it be too daunting for n00bs to the setting?
As evangelizing for Planescape as I try to be, I don't want to present material in a way that might be off putting towards newcomers.
*puts down the pen and preens slowly* 'And they said that 'other' Arcanaloth was the one good with writing. Hmph!'
I agree with some posters who suggest a more concise approach would be easier on the printer. However, to then go completely to the other end of the spectrum, I suggest that the more the merrier. I'd personally like to see some playable NPCs inserted as well. Further, the ultimate issue, IMO, will be a handy Table of Contents and Index. Some people may choose to not even print out the document, but keep it on the PC as a reference tool. So long as it's easy to scry through, then details shouldn't be omitted for the sake of ink.
Also, as a general aside, has anyone considered connecting in with a print source? If the final product was sent to a particular printer and interested persons paid for binding, paper and ink, it seems that you'd be able to work your way around the SRD legalisms. That is, you aren't paying for the product, but rather the compiling of the product: goods v. services.
To compensate for the printer-crazy folks, I think the best option would be to divide the document into clearly marked sections so that people can print out what sections they need as they need them.
It might be liable to change, but since most of you seem to be interested, well I might as well do more than just allude to and hint about the darn thing like I have for months now. :D
My opinion it is that should be two guides to sigil, one for planewalkers and another for masters.
The first should introduce the most important places in sigil like the faction´s headquarters and description of the enviroment in the wards.
The another guide would include deep description of the quarters(NPC found there, ideas for adventures and so) and a list of taberns, shops and another places that must be controlled by the DM itself.
my two jinks
Originally posted by CaoSlayer
I havent readed all the replies.
My opinion it is that should be two guides to sigil, one for planewalkers and another for masters.
The first should introduce the most important places in sigil like the faction´s headquarters and description of the enviroment in the wards.
The another guide would include deep description of the quarters(NPC found there, ideas for adventures and so) and a list of taberns, shops and another places that must be controlled by the DM itself.
my two jinks
Why not just do like what's done in modules? I.e., have sections available for players, but in separated areas, have information for the DM. That way, it'll all be at one's disposal ... and certain redundancies can be avoided.
Most of the inserts and comments from The Editor are more in line with information for the DM. The format of course to seperate these sections might be tweaked if needed.
And again, the offer stands to email me and I'll give an excerpt from the draft for folks to look over.
He wasn't even good tasting, like Teiflings. Never good to have a Tiefling bit stuck in your teeth.
Bah. It is obvious that falling down the Spire does something. If we could consider Unit 123155623's Razor, it would seem that the most logical and simple solution is the true one. Most logical solution? Anyone who leaps from Sigil is destroyed instantly.
Marvelous.
As for what happens when you jump off the edge. *smiles that secretive rilmani smile again and proceeds to buff his shiny-ness*
I've always been a fan of lengthy descriptions and don't care how much is put in, as there is no such thing as too much for me. I've always been a fan of site, situation, and political descriptors of a place other than just being told that "it's a place, make up the rest". As much detail as you can muster and are willing to incorporate is my vote, if it counts.
Give me a Planescape book the size of Book of the Righteous!
Give me a Sigil book the size of Ghostwalk!
Give me a faction book as big as Races of Faerun!
Gimmegimmegimme...hell, put them all at 30 bucks a pop, and watch me snatch them up like a ratatosk crackhead."
I now return you to my previous alhoon cynicism and self-superiority.