Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Nov 15, 2003 22:23:49	The Mathematician Wizards utilize Arcane laws to cast their magical powers. They modify eldritch powers and arrange it using complex sigils and arcane formulae. The mathematician on the other hand, realizes that mathematical laws are what makes the Multiverse go round. By harnessing these fundamental laws of the universe, mathematicians can create spectacular effects. The mathematician harnesses the powers of math in the same way that other casters harness eldritch forces. A mathematician begins to rely less and less on arcane power as he grasps the truth of the multiverse, eventually the mathematician gains complete independence from the laws of magic, his power only becomes bounded by the true laws of the multiverse. Hit Die: d4 Requirements To qualify to become a mathematician a character must fulfill all of the following criteria. Alignment: Any Lawful Feats: Any One Metamagic Feat, Diligent Skills: Knowledge (the Planes) 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 6, Knowledge (Mathematics) 12 ranks Spells: Must be able prepare and cast 5th level arcane spells. Special: Must have taken and passed the mathematician's entrance exam. Class Skills The mathematician's class skills are as follows: Appraise, Concentration, Decipher Script, Knowledge (Mathematics), Knowledge (The Planes), Spellcraft Skill Points at Each Level: 2+Int Mod Class Features All of the following are class features of the mathematician's class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mathematicians gain no additional proficiency in any weapon or armor.
#2 zombiegleemax Nov 15, 2003 22:39:51	Always nice when a first attempt at something succeeds so beautifully. This is a great Prestige Class, man. Perfect for rogue modron wizards like Ylem. Did I mention that I love this class?
#3 zombiegleemax Nov 15, 2003 22:48:01	Thanks, Andre. I was scanning the Mimir and I came across a short story where the main character was a Mathmetician wizard who was talking about rules and stuff. "He tried to remember the formula that would allow flight" yadda yadda. Then I read the Sect info on the Mathmeticians and I thought it was a good idea. Is the final power too powerful? I wanted to make it so that their 'magic' wasn't really magic, but I also though immunity to AMF would be too powerful.
#4 zombiegleemax Nov 15, 2003 23:05:13	No, I don't think it's too powerful. All you did was give them a chance to avoid the effects of an antimagic field, not complete and full protection from it. Even then, the ability is structured in such a way that it's not always going to work. The only change I'd make is so that anytime they cast a spell, they'd have to succeed at a caster level check against a static DC of 25 (spell penetration and greater spell penetration still apply). In my own opinion it's a bit more appropriate for the character itself to make a roll to overcome the chance of failure instead of requiring that the DM constantly roll the "counterspell" check.
#5 zombiegleemax Nov 15, 2003 23:08:26	That's a good idea. FIXED.
#6 kilamar Nov 16, 2003 7:46:22	Why does he not have Knowledge: Mathematics? Kilamar
#7 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 12:51:33	Well, because it doesn't exist. I wanted to keep it according to the rules, and there are really only the kinds of Knowledge mentioned in the PHB. I figured, Knowledge(The Planes) and Knowledge(Arcana) would suffice.
#8 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 14:24:32	I really think Knowledge [Mathematics] would be an excellent prerequisite. It fits the character concept, and I think it raises the prerequisites just enough so that this class isn't an automatic take for a level 10 planewalking wizard. Maybe it's not specifically in the PHB, but wizards get all knowledge skills, and they're clearly expecting people to expand this field. Besides, how will you pass the mathematician's enterance exam without it? By the way, why is the alignment requirement any neutral when this is so clearly a law-oriented PrC? That leaves the door open for bards to take this class, which just isn't right. Edit: I forgot to mention that spellcraft wasn't listed as a class skill.
#9 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 14:26:36	I thought I typed any Lawful. My, oh my, that's quite a big flub.
#10 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 14:48:09	The only thing about making a requirement of Knowledge (Mathematics) is that there really should also be an entry for what Knowledge (Mathematics) does. Sure, it's a pretty prerequisite for the class, but it should be clarified as to what one can do with the skill. The class itself is still great, but it's just something that you might want to consider for a future endeavor. I'd also reccomend perhaps changing one of the prerequisites so that the caster must prepare their spells as opposed to the spontaneous casting of a sorcerer or bard.
#11 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 14:53:54	I did a Knowledge (Mathematics) writeup. And now I'm working on the mechanics of the Sect information. Is it alright if I link to the Mimir for the history writeup?
#12 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 15:26:59	Alright, NOW, I've changed the name of the Mathematician's final power and added a new one, what do you all think?
#13 kilamar Nov 16, 2003 17:59:53	Wow, that is very cool now. THAT is what I call an exam. Perhaps you should add to Knowledge (Mathematics) that it allows you to communicate with extremly Lawful beings (Modrons). As some scientist say, math is the most basic language. Kilamar
#14 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 19:16:16	I have to say, I wouldn't play it. That's probably because I don't like the Guvners. Perhaps its biggest failing is that there's 26 ranks of prerequisite skills and 3 feats, making it very heavy on the prerequisites - at least double any of the base 3e/3.5 PrCs, and almost triple the prerequisites for one. Hmm.. does Know(maths) give a synergy bonus on Craft(induction proof)?
#15 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 19:25:13	Hmm.. true. Well, I can get rid of Knowledge(The Planes)... And perhaps one of the Metamagic feats. Well, this is for characters that do like the Lawful path. I tried to give it flavor, but still make attractive mechanically.
#16 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 19:37:56	Scale the skills back to about 4-6 for Know(planes), and 12 for Know(maths), and I think it'd look rather a bit better. It's just kinda important to get the first PrC right. Most bashers just make it, and try hard to keep it from being overpowered. Then it's overrestricted and they make a hyperpowered class to compensate, then they never make another one ever again. Then again, I prefer to make base classes. *smiles*
#17 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 19:46:27	Is that better, Persephone? I'm truly just trying to create a flavor class with enough benefit for it to seem attractive to players.
#18 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 19:50:42	It's looking pretty good. Only other thing I can think of is that it might be nice to give 'em a couple more class skills so there's a little bit of space to play with the PrC in.
#19 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 19:53:44	What say you everyone else? Is it looking almost done?
#20 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 22:07:30	I liked the Knowledge [Arcana] requirement, since most wizards take it anyway. Besides, wizards have high intelligence and their only must-have skills are spellcraft and concentration (maybe decipher script too, I don't know 3.5 so well). I also like it asthetically - to supplant the arcane with mathematics you must first understand it. Requiring 6 ranks like you do for Knowledge [The Planes] wouldn't be such a demanding requirement. Also, since this is certain to come up, can both daily uses of Harness the Rules be applied to the same spell? By the way, for uses of Knowledge [Mathematics], you could add in that it can be used to solve virtually any logical puzzle encountered (DC set by the DM). It also seems like a good candidate for synergy bonuses to Craft [Alchemy], Knowledge [Architecture & Engineering], and Profession [Siege Engineer]. But my personal favourite would be using it to count cards (a +2 to Profession [Gambler] checks), because you know that's what all the lawful evil mathematicians are doing. Oh, and your description for The Rules Cannot be Broken claims that mathematicians get it at 3rd level while the table has it listed at 4th.
#21 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 22:10:47	*laughs* Nice point from Overtrick, but I thought the Guvners like loopholes.
#22 zombiegleemax Nov 16, 2003 22:21:05	Alright, I made soem of those changes and fixed osme the other stuff.
#23 law Nov 23, 2003 19:51:56	Not bad. Looks good to me.
#24 bob_the_efreet Nov 24, 2003 1:29:48	Ah, they're mathemagical. I've been pondering a way to combine spellcasters with a useful application of math...