For those who remember SAGA, primal sorcery and mysticism had two essentials limitations. Firstly, it was very difficult to produce any effect greater than what we would consider a 5th level spell in a d20 environment. That could be chalked up to the lower levels of ambient magic in a world where the gods were absent I suppose.
But the other key limitation was that Sorcery, drawing on the elemental nature of the Krynn, could only effect those elemental forces. No spells that directly affected the living (or undead or spirits) could be cast via sorcery. Mysticism, in contrast, could only affect living, undead or spirits. Interestingly, neither sorcery nor mysticism could produce or manipulate raw magical energy, which made spells like Magic Missile or Dispel Magic impossible.
Yet for some reason that limitation has vanished. Even though it is mentioned more than once in the new books that Mysticism only affects living (etc.) beings, Mystics are allowed to cast all clerical spells and take Domains unrelated to living beings.
To me it seems that this kills the whole arguments surrounding how Sorcery and Mysticism are different from High Sorcery and Clerical magic. The spell lists are all the same! Sorcerors can cast any spell Wizards can, and Mystics can cast any spell Clerics can. That kind of deflates the argument in the campign books about High Sorcery and Clerical powers being more powerful than primal sorcery and mysticism.
Any thoughts?
My basic thought is that the early Age of Mortals is a time when Takhisis is stealing magic from everyone. As such, some limitations come into play.
Imagine trying to learn new magic, when the magic isn't working 100% right to begin with. It's like trying to learn how to operate a computer when all that is at your disposal is an Apple IIe or IBM PC Jr.
The early sorcerers and mystics began to categorize the magic into Realms of Sorcery (formerly schools) and Spheres of Mysticism. These were the common themes that sorcerers and mystics came across in their magic.
Emma Xela, one of the students at the Academy of Sorcery, was one of the sorcerers who was beginning to break the bonds of the Realms of Sorcery, and there are other traces in SAGA about how magic can be expanded in ways beyond the boundaries of what sorcerers currently knew.
Another thought is that these practices were taught only at the Academy of Sorcery and Citadel of Light. The Academy Sorcerer and Citadel Mystic prestige classes represent this.
One thing I do is to explain the living/non-living thing through background. Mysticism is the magic of life, while Wild Sorcery is the magic of the creative and elemental forces of the world.
That's the in-world explanation.
From more of a background perspective, the designers were designing for the D&D game. When designing for a game, you have to look through the "lens" of the game system. Magic had to work in a way that is conducive to D&D mechanics.
I'm certain WotC wanted certain things in there too, so as to attract D&D players to the setting.
I know, it sorta sucks in a way seeing the SAGA flavor of magic not being applied.
Psionycx, you may be able to relate to this one...
In a way, this reminds me of how psionics changed going from 2e to 3e. Many things changed. Many powers were dropped, and the powers all scaled like spells now. So much had changed that when I first saw 3e psionics, it appeared to be a totally different beast.
What I discovered, after looking into 3e psionics, is that I like 3e psionics as well as 2e. I have both, so really, I've not lost anything. SAGA fans who miss the feel of SAGA magic may just opt to play using SAGA rules.
Personally, I like the compromise that was made for 3e. I get the benefits of the PHB sorcerer and the new mystic class rocks! At the same time, I have the Academy Sorcerer and Citadel Mystic prestige classes, which give me some SAGA feel.
If one wanted to, they could modify the PHB sorcerer to be more SAGA-friendly. Drop the familiar and give a bonus metamagic feat. Drop spells known in favor of Realms of Sorcery or Spheres of Mysticism (spells known doesn't work well with realms/spheres). From there, have the sorcerer or mystic know only a limited number of realms/spheres, and cast spells only from those.
Anyway, I hope that helps to explain things a bit. Remember, there's a lot the DM can do with the appropriate flavor text.
Mysticism was meant to be the power of the heart, the power of the spirit. By limiting it only to living things, it became the power to magically manipulate the body. The mechanics ran counter to the whole flavour they were trying to evoke with this magic.
In 3e DL we now use a single domain. A character with the trickery domain will be a trickster figure. A character with the strength domain will be a pillar of strength. A character with the War domain will be warlike. Thus, the mystical powers of 3e DL are the character's own soul made magically manifest. I think we can all agree that this much more appropriate.
Sorcery was meant to wild and unpredictable. In essence, wild sorcery was the idea unlimited potential, something that is of course extremely dangerous (which is why we had the WoHS in the first place). By making a system divided into various schools that only affected elemental creatures, you stunted wild magic. It was no longer wild anymore, but a highly categorized and stable magical force. Sure you might get the occassional mishap, but that represented your inability to control the magic, not its unlimited destructive potential. Again, they are running contrary to their own flavour.
Frankly, I have no idea why they they divided it up that way. Whether you are hurling a ball of dirt, a ball of fire, or a ball of ice, all that matters is how much damage it does and how many people it effects. The only exception to this of course is creatures that are immune to certain effects. However, if they were going to have this as a balance, they should have had more monsters immune to certain energy types. Otherwise, it just means that nobody picks cryomancy or pyromancy as their schools, since those are the most likely categories that monsters are immune to.
Anyway, back to the sorcerer in 3e. This is a less perfect fit to the flavour than the mystic class is, but it has it's benefits. Now you can choose any spells you want, even spells you create yourself, which means that magic is now truly unlimited in potential. However, you do lose what SAGA did right, which is cast spells on the fly. This means that magic is especially stable.
I think the solution to this is to try and make a Scion prestige class that would be the counterpart to the Archmage. Casting spells on the fly, in whatever form you wish, is an extremely potent ability. Even the mongoose product "Chaos Magic" fails in this, because being able to dump all your spell-power points at once means that you can nuke your way out of the toughest battle.
However, I think this can be done with the high-level prestige class, with a cap on the power you can expend at any given time. I don't want to make it as complex as "Chaos Magic" so I'll leave it evocation-based, so all you have to choose is the energy type, the area, and the damage dice. As well, by choosing evocation, you leave the magic that is the most destructive and most likely to cause cataclysms if cast by a 20th - 25th level character.
Why can't I do this as a 20 level alternate sorcerer class? Many reasons really.
1. New players will find casting spells on the fly difficult if they want to play a sorcerer yet don't know the minutae of rules (such as what energy types are).
2. For the same reason that the energy substitution feat is a metamagic feat that requires a higher spell level slot. Monsters were designed with the classic fireball, lightning bolt and cone of cold in mind. A sonicball will kill almost anything.
3. Questions about other side effects of various energy types. Acid spells have lingering damage. Earth and Water spells might cause suffocation. Sonic damage may deafen, and Light spells might blind.
4. You are taking away the ability for DM's to make a particular fight more difficult for the party by taking away the ability for various immunities to matter. You cannot expect it to be balanced if you allow a player to cast a sonicball whenever he wishes. When a DM finally makes a creature immune to sonic damage a character can just switch back to fire without any penalty. The only way to keep it balanced is allow for creatures immune to all energy types, which means spell resistance. Spell resistance means higher level.
I don't want three energy types, due to the fact that I think it categorizes wild magic. However, even if I was to go that route, people would just pick geomancy, spectromancy, and sonicmancy because no creature is immune to all three. That would mean the DM would have to design a new monster everytime he wanted to challenge that player, which is both too much work and too convenient for a good storytelling.
Originally posted by ferratus
Mysticism was meant to be the power of the heart, the power of the spirit. By limiting it only to living things, it became the power to magically manipulate the body. The mechanics ran counter to the whole flavour they were trying to evoke with this magic.
One of the arguments against psionics in Krynn is that mysticism covers much of the same ground. Mentalism, meditation, and channeling all fit this bill.
In 3e DL we now use a single domain. A character with the trickery domain will be a trickster figure. A character with the strength domain will be a pillar of strength. A character with the War domain will be warlike. Thus, the mystical powers of 3e DL are the character's own soul made magically manifest. I think we can all agree that this much more appropriate.
I’ve definitely thought that the single domain helps define the character, but I really like how you phrased it – “the character’s own soul made magically manifest”. Very nice.
Frankly, I have no idea why they divided it up that way.
I think it was to add a certain amount of flavor. The magic of the 4th age had lots of flavor to it, so I imagine the 5th age design team tried to present something that had a flavor of its own.
They did a fairly good job, IMO, but a few things went against it. Firstly, there wasn’t always consistency between novels and games, so some sorcerers cast as wizards used to in the novels. IMO, this is another argument for using the PHB sorcerer.
Secondly, how do you top the magic of the gods or High Sorcery? Answer is, you don’t. No matter how well the magic of the 5th age was presented, it always will come across as “replacement magic” since it wasn’t there from the beginning.
Third, I fail to see some of the logic with the living/non-living bit. For example, if you were a pyromancer and cast a fireball at an opponent, he would not be physically harmed. Everything else around him would be. I know that we’re discussing a fantasy world here, so anything is possible, but you have to have a certain sense of realism.
However, you do lose what SAGA did right, which is cast spells on the fly.
I interpret this a bit differently. To me, casting on the fly equates to not preparing spells. The PHB even mentions somewhere that this is casting on the fly.
Now, if we get into spontaneous spell creation, then yes that is lost, but only to a degree. Spellshaping is something that can be accomplished through the use of metamagic feats. I think there’s a metamagic feat that allows you to substitute energy types (Tome and Blood?), which completely fills the bill. Imagine changing burning hands to where it causes electrical damage. Voila, you have a new spell – shocking hands.
Really, I do empathize with SAGA fans on this one. As I mentioned above, it mirrors my own thoughts with psionics. When 3e psionics came about, I felt like I lost certain things. Certainly, the old flavor is gone. Despite this, I also found that I liked the overall flavor of 3e psionics, and so now I’m a fan of both systems.
Fans of magic as presented in SAGA still have the SAGA rules to use if they so desire. If you want a 3e approach to this, there are several variants on the Nexus. I like the approach I take for my Wild Sorcerer class, as it is a nice amalgam between the PHB sorcerer and the SAGA rules.
I also think that one can duplicate the SAGA sorcerer to a degree with careful planning of spell selection. If you’re playing a pyromancer, then pick all fire spells. Geomancers would pick earth spells. Etc. etc. You may also wish to drop the familiar for some other ability (i.e. bonus metamagic feat).
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I’ve definitely thought that the single domain helps define the character, but I really like how you phrased it – “the character’s own soul made magically manifest”. Very nice.
You can thank Gargoyles (still my favourite animated series) for the phrase. If you download the episode "Eye of the Storm" you'll get a hint of what happens if you give a cleric or mystic with the War and Protection domains the power of a god.
Secondly, how do you top the magic of the gods or High Sorcery? Answer is, you don’t. No matter how well the magic of the 5th age was presented, it always will come across as “replacement magic” since it wasn’t there from the beginning.
I don't know what to say about this. I know TSR management forced the SAGA team to give dragonlance back magic in order to make it marketable as a system beyond dragonlance. I think that was ultimately a mistake, because there would still be a niche for SAGA now as a storyteller roleplaying system in gritty realistic campaigns where magic is rare and non-existant. In fact, I'm continually toying with the idea of a dice-based SAGA system for just that reason.
If TSR management demanded that there be a magic system, they probably demanded a white bread magic system so that SAGA can be played in other vanilla fantasy settings, which involves overt magical effects through incantations and gestures. That type of magic is the staple of D&D.
Otherwise, you might have had magical systems that would have been ludicrous to equate with the D&D sorcerer. Magic that causes Murphy's law to happen. Possession by demons and angels in the wake of the gods' absence. Apotheosis into elemental creatures of air, fire, water and earth and wood. Then I might care more about 5th Age magic and not want to absorb it so readily in previous ages.
Third, I fail to see some of the logic with the living/non-living bit. For example, if you were a pyromancer and cast a fireball at an opponent, he would not be physically harmed. Everything else around him would be. I know that we’re discussing a fantasy world here, so anything is possible, but you have to have a certain sense of realism.
I don't understand "The problem with wood". It seems to me that non-living wood should be manipulated by necromancy. After all, you could affect living plants with mysticism.
Now, if we get into spontaneous spell creation, then yes that is lost, but only to a degree. Spellshaping is something that can be accomplished through the use of metamagic feats. I think there’s a metamagic feat that allows you to substitute energy types (Tome and Blood?), which completely fills the bill. Imagine changing burning hands to where it causes electrical damage. Voila, you have a new spell – shocking hands.
Indeed, metamagic feats, the energy substitution feat, and the ability to cast the spells you know whenever you want them certainly does much to mitigate the loss.
However, I think there is room for spontaneous spell shaping as a high level prestige class, both in and outside of dragonlance.
I felt like I lost certain things. Certainly, the old flavor is gone. Despite this, I also found that I liked the overall flavor of 3e psionics, and so now I’m a fan of both systems.
Just out of curiousity, what are you missing? It looks the same to me. The only thing that I found that changed was wild talents and other unbalancing abilities were scrapped and an effort was made to integrate it better with the mechanics of the other classes, again for game balance. Otherwise, it seems that they are still mental powers.
Originally posted by ferratus
You can thank Gargoyles (still my favourite animated series) for the phrase. If you download the episode "Eye of the Storm" you'll get a hint of what happens if you give a cleric or mystic with the War and Protection domains the power of a god.
Love Gargoyles. When I watch that, I can see some nifty things that can be adapted for draconians.
I don't know what to say about this. I know TSR management forced the SAGA team to give dragonlance back magic in order to make it marketable as a system beyond dragonlance.
Just a guess here, but my thought is that they figure DL wouldn’t make it without magic. I know at least one person in the design team argued for DL w/o magic, but it didn’t fly.
I don't understand "The problem with wood". It seems to me that non-living wood should be manipulated by necromancy. After all, you could affect living plants with mysticism.
I think the concept is that wood is alive as a growing tree, but non-living when made into staffs, tables, etc. How this is different from things like bone, I’m not sure.
Correct me if I’m wrong on that.
Indeed, metamagic feats, the energy substitution feat, and the ability to cast the spells you know whenever you want them certainly does much to mitigate the loss.
However, I think there is room for spontaneous spell shaping as a high level prestige class, both in and outside of dragonlance.
Agreed. A spellshaper would be quite interesting, and fun. I’m just not quite sure how to implement that.
And as for your question on my feelings of psionics…
Just out of curiousity, what are you missing? It looks the same to me. The only thing that I found that changed was wild talents and other unbalancing abilities were scrapped and an effort was made to integrate it better with the mechanics of the other classes, again for game balance. Otherwise, it seems that they are still mental powers.
I can’t really nail this down to one thing, to be honest.
I was a bit upset that several of the powers were not converted to 3e. Some changed ability, some changed name (Lend Health became something like Empathic Transfer).
I had a character with this neat ability called Animal Affinity, which allowed you to transform a part of your body to match a part of the animal you had an affinity with. The 3e version just allows you to have an ability score that is based on an animal’s.
The psionicist became the psion, and the HD dropped from d6 to d4. They also changed Psionic Strength Points to Power Points. Not a big deal in retrospect.
I think the 3e psion is severely front-loaded in regards to combat modes. He gets half at 1st level. They should be spread out more, IMO.
I wasn’t happy at all about Wild Talents. In 3e, the concept is that you take one level of psion, then go back to advancing in your other classes. A wild talent, IMO, should have one or two wild powers, not have the mental discipline to manifest a handful of powers and to have half of the combat modes.
Note: d20 Modern has a Wild Talent feat that fixed this for me. The feat allows a psion to manifest one 0-level power 3 times per day.
Power Scaling – Logically, I knew that this was a more balanced way to go, but it felt like they were making psionics into another form of magic. The magic/psionics transparency adds to this.
Basically, what happened is that I tried to convert some of my old psionicists, and found that I pretty much had to revamp all their old powers. It was frustrating, as the characters didn’t always feel the same.
Skip ahead, skip ahead…
The above is really my initial reactions to psionics in 3e. I spent a while trying to figure out if the 2e psionics book could be converted to a skill-and-feat system. I found that it would take tons of work.
Thing is, I didn’t give up on psionics. I started looking more at 3e psionics, and I discovered that I really liked some of the concepts in 3e. I like psicrystals, and the entire crystal motif. Power scaling really wasn’t such a big deal after all, and actually made more sense. Love the psychic warrior. I like how primary disciplines work, and I’m one of the few people who likes MAD (multiple ability dependency).
Plus, I found that going with 3e, I had several 3rd party books to build with. Bruce R. Cordell’s If Thoughts Could Kill and Mindscapes are both amazing books. There are a few others as well.
Long story short (and to bring this back on topic more…)
My initial reaction to 3e psionics wasn’t the best, as 3e psionics was very different from what I knew. What I discovered, though, was that the basic themes still existed, and that I could convert any power that didn’t get converted. Yes, I miss some of the feel of 2e psionics, but I still have them to use if opportunity arises. At the same time, I have this nifty new system as well, which gets a facelift come April.
Whenever you convert from one system to another, you sometimes lose a little something. At the same time, you often gain things as well. If you don’t feel like the new system properly represents what it is you’re trying to convert (like SAGA magic), there are several options. You can find fan materials on the web, or can make your own hybrid system. Or you can continue to use your own system. Or, perhaps a 3rd party system works best.
Whew! Sorry to be so long-winded today, folks. ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Basically, what happened is that I tried to convert some of my old psionicists, and found that I pretty much had to revamp all their old powers. It was frustrating, as the characters didn’t always feel the same.
Which is what we're coming across with the PHB sorcerer and DLCS mystic vs. the SAGA sorcerer and mystic. For example, if I was playing a character who was all about hydromancy (only knowing one school of magic involving water) and was a mariner it would almost impossible to do it in a level-based system like D&D. The more he is a mariner the less he is a hydromancer and vice versa.
Another problem with the character such as this hydromancer (as Cam and I discussed in private email) was that the spell list is not quite as diverse as it would be ideal to be. A sorcerer for example can do almost anything with fire, but spells manipulating water are rare. Even in the Water domain half of the spells are cold spells. The ideal however cannot be expected in a published product, because it would involve a compendium of spells, many of which would end up being simply duplicates of other spells with another energy type. It would be great as a fan-based project, and I myself plan to get to work writing up at least one spell for each level for each school. If there are many spells to manipulate water, even if you don't have spontaneous casting, it would still go a long way to ressurecting that old SAGA character.
The above is really my initial reactions to psionics in 3e. I spent a while trying to figure out if the 2e psionics book could be converted to a skill-and-feat system. I found that it would take tons of work.
Thing is, I didn’t give up on psionics. I started looking more at 3e psionics, and I discovered that I really liked some of the concepts in 3e. I like psicrystals, and the entire crystal motif. Power scaling really wasn’t such a big deal after all, and actually made more sense. Love the psychic warrior. I like how primary disciplines work, and I’m one of the few people who likes MAD (multiple ability dependency).
I also love MAD, and if I had my way all spellcasters would operate under that system. Clerics in a way already do, since they require Strength or Con for their role as backup melee fighter, Wisdom for their spells, and Charisma for their undead turning. I've noticed a greater variety of clerics as a result. I am getting tired of the endless parade of skinny magicians though.
What I really want to comment on though is your attitude towards psionics. Now, I've only ever dabbled in psionics. I haven't played Dark Sun, nor run a campaign where psionics were front and center. So I've obviously not really attached to the way the feel of 2e psionics worked. I didn't really think about it, the characters of it, and the resulting storylines. I have the same experience towards both SAGA and 1e Dragonlance.
I encourage though that people remind us newcomers of the past, but don't be too entrenched that you can't be open to new possibilities even if you have to let some things go. As Dragonhelm showed, just because something is different, doesn't mean it isn't good.
Besides... we'll have to go through it all over again in 4e, in about 6-10 years (my prediction). I myself hope to have put away childish things like D&D by then, but.... ;)
Originally posted by ferratus
Another problem with the character such as this hydromancer (as Cam and I discussed in private email) was that the spell list is not quite as diverse as it would be ideal to be.
I can attest to this as well. I’ve tried doing some mock-up sorcerers using the various schools, and some just fall short. I think Cryomancy was one of them.
A sorcerer for example can do almost anything with fire, but spells manipulating water are rare. Even in the Water domain half of the spells are cold spells. The ideal however cannot be expected in a published product, because it would involve a compendium of spells, many of which would end up being simply duplicates of other spells with another energy type. It would be great as a fan-based project, and I myself plan to get to work writing up at least one spell for each level for each school. If there are many spells to manipulate water, even if you don't have spontaneous casting, it would still go a long way to ressurecting that old SAGA character.
What I think needs to happen is to have a sourcebook on Sorcery and Mysticism, filled with tons of new spells to round out each Realm of Sorcery.
I also love MAD, and if I had my way all spellcasters would operate under that system.
The tinker in me has thought about doing that with sorcerers and mystics.
I am getting tired of the endless parade of skinny magicians though.
Lol!
What I really want to comment on though is your attitude towards psionics. Now, I've only ever dabbled in psionics. I haven't played Dark Sun, nor run a campaign where psionics were front and center. So I've obviously not really attached to the way the feel of 2e psionics worked. I didn't really think about it, the characters of it, and the resulting storylines. I have the same experience towards both SAGA and 1e Dragonlance.
My very first campaign included psionics, and I was really taken by how one of the players played his psionicist. It was sort of a sci-fi/fantasy mix. I’ve played and DM’d some Dark Sun in my day as well, and have just kept abreast of D&D psionics throughout the years.
I’m like you, though, in regards to SAGA. I never got into SAGA, so the impact of switching to 3e isn’t as great as it would be if I had. I can empathize, though.
I encourage though that people remind us newcomers of the past, but don't be too entrenched that you can't be open to new possibilities even if you have to let some things go. As Dragonhelm showed, just because something is different, doesn't mean it isn't good.
I have found that, when changing systems, you sometimes lose something, but you also gain something as well. I have a Star Wars character that has been played in a homebrew White Wolf system, the d6 WEG system, and the d20 system (original and revised rules). Throughout it all, I lost some things, but gained others along the way. To date, my favorite system for this character has been the d20 system.
Sometimes, you really do lose something. I have a L5R character that has stats for both d10 and d20. Overall, the conversion was fairly straight-forward, but you lose a bit of feel not having the rings as stats.
I think the important thing, though, is to try to keep the overall themes of the character. For example, some of my psionic characters may not have the same exact powers, but the psionic disciplines and combat modes are largely the same.
Besides... we'll have to go through it all over again in 4e, in about 6-10 years (my prediction). I myself hope to have put away childish things like D&D by then, but.... ;)
How old are you again, Terry? I’m 31, and I still haven’t given up D&D. I might have at one point, but then the Nexus came along, which changed everything. ;) I discovered the d20 rules system in the process, and I’ve been loving it ever since.
My advice is to go with the rules system that you like best, and that best fits your character.
Sometimes change is hard. I know it took me a while to warm up to 3e (especially psionics). Give the new rules system a chance, and you may find you like it. If you find that the new rules system doesn’t give the feel you’re looking for, you still have the old rules system to use, or you can tinker with the rules.
Be sure to look through the “lens” of the rules system you’re using when defining your character. Cam taught me that piece of advice, and it has served me well.
Personally, I’m very happy with the state of sorcerers and mystics in DL. You not only get the PHB feel, but the Academy Sorcerer and Citadel Mystic prestige classes allow you to keep a bit of the SAGA feel as well. It is a compromise, yes, but a good one.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
How old are you again, Terry? I’m 31, and I still haven’t given up D&D. I might have at one point, but then the Nexus came along, which changed everything. ;) I discovered the d20 rules system in the process, and I’ve been loving it ever since.
I'm 32, and I'm very sure I'll be running games and writing game material well into my grandfather years. Given that my son's only 18 months old at the moment, that's at least another 20 years from now.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
What I think needs to happen is to have a sourcebook on Sorcery and Mysticism, filled with tons of new spells to round out each Realm of Sorcery.
Is such a book feasible? I don't think there is enough interest in dragonlance sorcery and mysticism to make such a book marketable. Besides, there isn't really any background for sorcery and mysticism outside of the Citadel of Light and Academy of Sorcery.
Would such a book be mostly like a Tome and Blood splat book (alternate spells, feats and prestige classes)? I'm not particularly interested in such a book (since I already have more rules than I'll ever use).
On a side note, what is the appeal of splat books? I know people who buy all the splat books, Dieties and Demigods, Manual of the Planes and every other rulebook that comes out... and they just sit on the shelf. That's hundreds of dollars that's just going to depriciate to nothing in a few years, and he'll only use 20 pages worth of material out of the entire lot. Plus, they'll subscribe to Dragon magazine. It baffles me.
How old are you again, Terry? I’m 31, and I still haven’t given up D&D. I might have at one point, but then the Nexus came along, which changed everything. ;)
I'm 23. I'm hoping to be out on my 25th birthday, but nobody believes me. I don't know though, while I still enjoy writing stories, I'm enjoying playing cribbage more than playing D&D. I'm also starting to feel the first touches of age, which means I should pursue enjoyable pastimes to take care of my body. Though I still lift weights and run, I don't play sports as often as I used to and one reason for that is the 5-7 hours a week spent playing D&D on one of my days off. That is also because team sports require athletes and since my social circle since coming to the city is dominated by gamers, they are not exactly fit and robust.
However, D&D has a lot of nostalgia in it, and I do enjoy D&D sometimes when the mood is right. I enjoy fantasy fiction, and though I'm not always over the moon with dragonlance I'm certainly addicted to it. So who knows?
Originally posted by ferratus
On a side note, what is the appeal of splat books? I know people who buy all the splat books, Dieties and Demigods, Manual of the Planes and every other rulebook that comes out... and they just sit on the shelf. That's hundreds of dollars that's just going to depriciate to nothing in a few years, and he'll only use 20 pages worth of material out of the entire lot. Plus, they'll subscribe to Dragon magazine. It baffles me.
For me, they're reference books, source material, inspiration, and guidelines. I don't use all the information that's in them and Dragon magazine (which I subscribe to), but it's in my best interest to have them and keep up to date.
I don't use 100% of my encyclopedias, dictionaries, writing style manuals, thesaurus etc, either, but I don't regret the money I spent on them.
Cheers,
Cam
You're probably right. The chances of such a book are slim.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
If it were up to me, I'd do a book on the Magic of Krynn. Problem is, most of that will be covered with Towers of High Sorcery and Holy Orders of the Stars.
You're probably right. The chances of such a book are slim.
I don't know if that is such a bad thing. See, the flavour of the sorcerer on Krynn was largely defined by SAGA mechanics, rather than by organizations and characters. We already have the Academy Sorcerer covered.
I think before we need to worry about a sourcebook dealing with sorcerers, we should instead work to organically inspire people to play sorcerers.
For example, I have a concept for sorcerers known as the Sivakith, who were born in the Brothels of Sanction during the years between the WotL and the Chaos War from polymorphed Sivak draconians and human women. These sorcerers are masters of illusion magic, and are experts in magical espionage. Now I could make a big production out of it, complete with prestige classes, new spells, and such... but I think it would be more prudent to see if someone bites first. So I'll feature them in an adventure and in a writeup involving the city of Sanction.
So to get back to my original point, we need to develop an organic subculture of sorcery before worrying about a book detailing it.
Originally posted by ferratus
I think before we need to worry about a sourcebook dealing with sorcerers, we should instead work to organically inspire people to play sorcerers.
So basically, give players a reason to want to play sorcerers, provide more options on how to play sorcerers, showcase more how sorcerers work in-world, etc. etc. Then after there is enough background info, do a sourcebook. That way there is more reason to pick up such a sourcebook.
As it stands right now (and correct me if I'm wrong on this), most sorcerers are either Thorn Knights, Academy Sorcerers (which is now defunct), Legion Sorcerers, or independents.
Interesting thoughts...
I'm quite content to leave the SAGA style of freeform spellcasting alone for the most part, with the spontaneous casting of sorcerer spells easily covering that. In addition, sorcerers are more powerful in the wake of the War of Souls than they had ever been in the 20 years prior, since the wild magic isn't being leeched by souls.
Cheers,
Cam
Take the sorcerer, for example. You can detail the Academy of Sorcery, but it has been destroyed, so it doesn't help out in the modern era (unless they rebuild it). You can touch upon the Thorn Knights some, but they won't be fully detailed in such a book. Same with the Legion of Steel. Heck, the Legion Sorcerer and Academy Sorcerer prestige classes have already been done.
The mystic fights similar circumstances with the Skull Knights and Legion Mystic. The Knights of Solamnia had some mystic traditions, but will shortly go back to using godly magic. There would be plenty of things you could do with the Citadel of Light, but that's about it.
Such a book would have to be appealing to more than just "5th age fans". There should be info on things such as regional sorcerer traditions. There should be expansion on other sorcerer schools.
I think going into the magic of inherently magical creatures, especially dragons, would be a big selling point. Heck, I'd buy such a book just for a dragon mage or dragon mystic prestige class.
Plus, I would have a huge section on the Realms of Sorcery and Spheres of Mysticism.
Okay, I'm just rambling now. lol
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Take the sorcerer, for example. You can detail the Academy of Sorcery, but it has been destroyed, so it doesn't help out in the modern era (unless they rebuild it).
I hope not. I want to bring the Academy everywhere, from Sancrist to Flotsam, rather than being concentrated on one building like the WoHS. Otherwise it makes the Academy and the Conclave too similar in my opinion. Besides, sorcery is supposed to be the everyman's magic right? Why limit it to those who can afford to make the long journey to, and board in, Solace?
The mystic fights similar circumstances with the Skull Knights and Legion Mystic. The Knights of Solamnia had some mystic traditions, but will shortly go back to using godly magic. There would be plenty of things you could do with the Citadel of Light, but that's about it.
Well, there is a mystic sourcebook planned. I wonder if it has been greenlit or not. Anyway, yes the mystic would have similar problems. We have the Citadel of Light and its traditions, but we don't have much outside of that. If you ressurected the Seekers as an example of heathen religions benefiting from mysticism, that would fill another large chunk of the book. If the druids had been mystics that would have another chunk (with agricultural and civilized aspects of Chislev, Habbakuk and Zeboim covered by clerics), but we didn't go that direction. What else can we do with mystics that immediately spring to mind?
I think going into the magic of inherently magical creatures, especially dragons, would be a big selling point. Heck, I'd buy such a book just for a dragon mage or dragon mystic prestige class.
While I would never buy a book for an alternate rule.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
How do you guys feel about the Arcane Preparaion feat? With this feat, Eschew Materials (Or the Monte Cook variant sorcerer), and the Energy Substitution feat (as was mention earlier) a Sorcerer could regain back some of the Fifth Age magic feel.
What is the Arcane Preparation feat and where can it be found?
(sorry, feeling stupid today)
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
How do you guys feel about the Arcane Preparaion feat? With this feat, Eschew Materials (Or the Monte Cook variant sorcerer), and the Energy Substitution feat (as was mention earlier) a Sorcerer could regain back some of the Fifth Age magic feel.
I really like the Eschew Materials feat and, if I can, I'll use it for any sorcerer I play. Energy substitution is cool too, and works well for sorcerers.
As for Arcane Preparation, I really do not feel that this one particular feat has any business being in Dragonlance.
Reason is, the preparation of spells is the mechanical key as to where a spellcaster's spells come from. All spellcasters who prepare spells gain their spells from the gods. All spellcasters who cast spontaneously are ambient spellcasters (sorcerers, mystics, and bards).
So, if one said that their sorcerer prepared spells, they would then say that their sorcerer effectively gained their power from the gods. Also, a sorcerer who prepared spells would sort of go against the feel of the SAGA wizard.
That's just my thoughts at least. You may find that it has use in your game, or you may interpret the use of Arcane Preparation differently than I do.
Drop the familiar, allow them to use magic as a standard action (rather than full-round), and perhaps give them a bonus metamagic feat at 1st level.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Okay, I see where you're coming from. Here's a thought...
Drop the familiar, allow them to use magic as a standard action (rather than full-round), and perhaps give them a bonus metamagic feat at 1st level.
The sorcerer's familiar isn't actually enough to balance that particular benefit out, really. You could probably get away with ditching the familiar and granting the sorcerer the Eschew Materials feat at 1st level, but allowing them to use metamagic without it taking longer makes them even more appealing than wizards.
There's no real in-game problem with the Arcane Preparation feat for Dragonlance sorcerers. Heroes of Sorcery goes into some detail about expanding the capabilities of sorcerers, especially in regards to moving beyond the initial discoveries of Palin and company. We're helped in this regard by the way D&D now handles spellcasting, in that it is no longer "fire and forget" memorization, but the casting of a spell to the point of requiring trigger words and gestures - the preparation, in other words, of the spell. Wizards are able to leave a spell slot open and cast any spell they like later on in the day, provided they have the time to spend on it (around 10 minutes). Similarly, sorcerers can learn to summon the energies they need to cast a spell ahead of time and leave it "hanging", ready to release it later.
I would definitely state for the record that wizards and sorcerers draw on different sources for their magic in Dragonlance, as is common knowledge now. However, their methods most surely overlap - after all, a sorcerer who casts a fireball and a wizard who does the same end up with identical results. What matters is our exercising of imagination in determining how this is the case.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The sorcerer's familiar isn't actually enough to balance that particular benefit out, really.
Cam borrowed Hiddukel's scales to test this. Hiddukel wasn't too happy that they came back broken. :D ;)
Looking at the feat again (Tome and Blood), I guess I could see where one could use it with the power of Wild Sorcery. Even though a sorcerer would prepare a spell in advance, the source of power is still different.
To me, it feels wrong. Spell preparation is one of the defining factors between ambient spellcasters and those who gain their power from the gods.
That's just my opinion, though, and should be regarded as such. Use what you feel works best for your character and your game.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
As for Arcane Preparation, I really do not feel that this one particular feat has any business being in Dragonlance.
Well yes, when designing Dragonlance materials, you have to assume that people don't have access to all the numerous splat books. I certainly don't.
Otherwise, who cares? Let the person get a little more use out of the book they spent too much for. It's their own home game.
Work 40+ hours a week, school for 9 credit hours, band practice 5 hours a week, between 2 - 3 tour dates a month (about 5 hours per gig), writing 2 game books under two different game systems, finishing work on the 250+ page Zelda D20, writing music, mainitaining a web site, spending time with family and friends, and still running steady D&D and Vampire games, in addition to custom playtests, working out on weights 4 times a week for 30 minutes min., jogging 8 miles a week, and running in monthly 5k's.
Point?
If you love games, you love 'em. Not bragging, just encouraging anyone who loves games to never give them up unless you want to.
Peace.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I usually work 1 PM -9 PM and I barely have time to work on the games I run. How do you do it?
'Cause the guy is a raging ball of energy. :D
Go ahead, Matt...tell him how much sleep you get. (I'm only guessing, but I bet it's not very much) ;)
Actually, I'm kind of curious as to what your caffeine in-take is, there was a discussion at work today about this sort of thing...
*runs away*
Actually, I'm caffeine free! And sugar free! And meat-free, and dairy free to boot!
How do I do it? How not?
So I work a lot, yeah, everyone does. Living on your own will do that to ya. And between everything else, it can be a challenge trying to accomplish everything I need to in a week, no doubt about that.
But gaming is very important to me - keep in mind, I'm not an atypical convention-goer. I don't buy a ton of RPG products, and the ones I do buy are very diverse in nature. I play multiple systems, and each one revolves around a story, not a random string of events. Between rapping in a metal band and all my other hobbies, I just MAKE the time to do what's important.
Gaming is important, so of course, I make time for it. Small sessions, mind you. I have absolutely no desire or love for trying to game with moe than two or three people at a time. I prefer, in fact, one-on-one gaming: Just me, my dice, and a player to kick around (don't tell them I said that.
Frankly, when I see conversations like this (slightly off-topic, I know, but sue me) I wonder why people don't respond like I do. I've got bills to pay and responsibilities too, but if something is important, you make the time for it. I mean, when I feel like working on my top-secret game project (hopefully published in 2004), I come home from work (I work from 12.30 PM to 9.00 PM), change, eat, take care of bills, etc, then sit my a55 down in front of the computer and write.
I just do it. It's like that for anything that's important to me. Sure, diet and exercise play a huge role in my energy level, but anyone can do it - it just requires the principled integrity to sit down and just plain DO IT.
Crap. Ten bucks says Nike sues me on that one.
Point is, Ferratus brought it up when he mentioned he might fade out of gaming at some point. Now, regardless of who Ferratus is or why he games, if he loves it he shouldn't give it up. Unless, of course, it's a higher priority to give it up. That's a different story.
What am I rambling about? I do this on my website... then I lose track, and someone glues chess pieces to my eyes.
Right.
With much adieu,
PEACE!
P.S. It's like this. Just chill out, put some Dilated People in the players, and just get to work. :D