Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Normally, I wouldn't advocate this sort of thing. However, I think Dragonlance has already proven to be the type of setting that this would be okay for.
Originally posted by ferratus
I also don't require the Solamnic Knights to take levels in the previous prestige classes, but simply do exactly what the Knights of Nereka do. Before you become a Knight of the Sword or Rose, you are considered a Squire of the Crown.
actually, i have a severe problem with this. By doing this, you are going against the entire Dragonlance continuity. Since it's inception, you always had to progress through the lower castes before becoming a knight of a higher caste. This is in both books and the game, since 1st edition. Also, why neraka knights don't have to take other castes? Basically, because, unlike the Solamnics, each knighthood in Neraka is independent from one another.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Dragonlance you must remember, introduced the idea of the pRc BEFORE THEY WERE EVER INTRODUCED.
Technically, the D&D Companion set did it first with druids, avengers, paladins etc etc. One could also make an excellent argument that Unearthed Arcana inspired Dragonlance's "split class" route for the knights and wizards, given that the thief-acrobat was the first AD&D class to work that way. Dragonlance Adventures (which was the first place the Knight of Solamnia and Wizard of High Sorcery classes were seen in Dragonlance) is very much a product of its predecessors in terms of game mechanic styles.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
I myself don't like to do so. For example, the Legion classes require you to take one level in Legionaire to get the "Legion Knowledge" ability. However, I don't require such an ability, because I figure that the Legion classes themselves are enough to tangibly show that you belong to the Legion of Steel. As well, if you are all playing Legionaires, you only really need one person with the Legion knowledge ability. It isn't worth sacrificing a level of some other class you want just to give your buddy a +2 aid another check.
I think this all boils down to semantics, really. The Steel Legionnaire is only3 levels long, and only one level of it is required for the character to satisfy that entry requirement for the other three classes. You're describing it as if this is a limitation, when in fact it's really just the first level of those other classes. Sure, you could build that level into the other PrCs to avoid having more than one prestige class, but there is no downside to it the way it stands.
If a player complains that he's "forced" to take a level in Wizard of High Sorcery before he can take a level in some more specialized WoHS-related class, he'll complain about anything. That one level requirement (or three, or however you want to do it) should be considered part of the other class, one in which the classes have a common foundation.
I adore the way prestige classes work in D&D 3.5, and the way requiring certain class abilities is an indirect way of saying "the fastest way to get to this class is by taking X levels of another class". One only sees a limitation or impingement on freedom if one spends far too much time worrying about that.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
I also don't require the Solamnic Knights to take levels in the previous prestige classes, but simply do exactly what the Knights of Nereka do. Before you become a Knight of the Sword or Rose, you are considered a Squire of the Crown.
I understand your point with the LoS, but the Knights of Solamnia do have a bit of a hierarchy. You have to be a Crown Knight to advance to Sword, which in turn is required to become a Rose Knight.
In this case, it’s a matter of organization, whereas what we’re talking about is moreso specializing on a path within an organization (i.e. renegade hunters).
I don't have any problems with people taking more than one prestige class, but I think to build prestige classes that require another prestige class just limits player choice, and also limits the likelihood that the prestige class will be played.
Perhaps. It can also help to define one’s career.
For another example, take the proposed Renegade Hunters. Wizards are only 1 out of 10 classes, 12 if you count the new DL classes (Noble and Mariner). That's thus less than 10% of players. The number of wizards who will be WoHS will be slightly less, but the amount that will be renegade hunters will only be a small percentage of those wizards. Thus, you're designing rules that will only appeal to 1% or 2% of gamers. After all, you're probably only going to hunt a renegade mage once or twice in an entire campaign. Thus, that prestige class is less valuable.
You could say the same about many other prestige classes. What are the odds that someone will play a blackgruard or any other evil class? The numbers by themselves don’t work, as you have to figure in “cool factor”, which is hard to quantify.
Actually, the War Mage and the Solamnic Auxillary Mage mage fit the bill for what I'm talking about. You do not have to have levels in the WoHS prestige class to qualify for either. The Solamnic Auxillary mage says in a vague way that they must cast "godly magic" but it does not say specifically that they must be wizards of high sorcery. If this is an unintentional loophole, then I'm exploiting it to the fullest. This opens the class to be played by good renegade wizards (who might find the patronage of the knighthood valuable), and those who don't really want to do much more than use a fireball or two to to decimate low-level soldiers and get the drop on the General Abraxis and his elite bodyguard.
The war mage is designed to work for a straight base class like a sorcerer or wizard, or to add onto prestige classes such as the WoHS or Thorn Knight. It works as something that can stand on it’s own, or be added to another PrC.
The Solamnic Auxiliary Mage had some changes in the editing process, and should read that they should be Wizards of High Sorcery. They should have to prepare spells.
However, if a person wished to use a sorcerer for this PrC, I would think it would be okay so long as they were pledged to the KoS. It’s better still if they follow Kiri-Jolith.
For example, the Solamnic Auxillary Mage will still be a wizard of the white robes, and a member of the conclave whether he has levels in the Wizard of High Sorcery or not. A Knight of the Sword will still be a clerical holy warrior whether he has levels in the Knight of the Crown prestige class or not. So if the character archetype is unchanged, why straddle the player with a level or two that he might not want? Why limit the availability (and thus the value) of the prestige class (and thus the value of the book as a whole)?
Despite some of my own disagreements on approach, Terry makes a good point here. Membership in an organization does not require a prestige class. If a person wanted to use a base wizard class for the WoHS, that’s cool. If they wanted to use a combo of fighter and cleric (or paladin) for the KoS, that’s cool too. And so on and so forth.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Despite some of my own disagreements on approach, Terry makes a good point here. Membership in an organization does not require a prestige class. If a person wanted to use a base wizard class for the WoHS, that’s cool. If they wanted to use a combo of fighter and cleric (or paladin) for the KoS, that’s cool too. And so on and so forth.
But we've all been saying this from the get-go.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Technically, the D&D Companion set did it first with druids, avengers, paladins etc etc. One could also make an excellent argument that Unearthed Arcana inspired Dragonlance's "split class" route for the knights and wizards, given that the thief-acrobat was the first AD&D class to work that way. Dragonlance Adventures (which was the first place the Knight of Solamnia and Wizard of High Sorcery classes were seen in Dragonlance) is very much a product of its predecessors in terms of game mechanic styles.
Cheers,
Cam
The 1e bard is another example. IIRC, you had to take X levels of fighter, then wizard, then thief. Not sure if that's exactly right, but you get the idea.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
But we've all been saying this from the get-go.
Cheers,
Cam
Yes we have. Terry just mentioned it first this time.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Despite some of my own disagreements on approach, Terry makes a good point here. Membership in an organization does not require a prestige class. If a person wanted to use a base wizard class for the WoHS, that’s cool. If they wanted to use a combo of fighter and cleric (or paladin) for the KoS, that’s cool too. And so on and so forth.
Right. This is why I don't think that requiring a level in a previous prestige class shouldn't be mandatory. You can play a Crown Knight or a Sword Knight without any levels in the prestige classes, and still be considered a full fledged member of the organization. So why force levels in a previous prestige class as a prerequisite? So I just consider them members of the previous two knightly orders without requiring them to take a possibly non-beneficial level progression (depending on which other feats they are taking or the character concept they have). Thus, flavour is maintained, but the player gets more choice in the construction of his own character. It is a small thing, but when you can do it without sacrificing anything... why force it?
This goes for LoS related prestige classes, WoHS prestige classes etc. A Legion Mystic without the Legion Knowledge ability is just a legionnaire that doesn't pound the pavement for information, but serves the legion in another capacity. That doesn't sound so unreasonable does it? If a character wants to pound the pavement, they can always take the Legionnaire prestige class if they want to.
Likewise if a character can play a Wizard of High Sorcery without taking levels in the prestige class (but just playing a straight wizard), why do you need the WoHS prestige class to play a Solamnic Auxillary Mage or a Renegade Hunter?
Originally posted by Halabis
Ferratus, most of the problems that you have seem to stem from the fact that the WoHS Prc has so many requirements. Personaly I think all the problems would be solved if the req for the WoHS class didnt have such strict reqs for entry. That way any qizard that could cast powerfull enough spells would qualify for entry to the prc without limiting their options for taking other prc's
No, if anything the WoHS have too few requirements. I just want to avoid being forced to take 1, 2 or 3 classes and prestige classes in order to qualify for a prestige class. The more you multiclass, the less powerful your character becomes in many cases. For example, a 4th level fighter/16th level wizard gets a better +2 melee base attack, but he misses out out 9th level spells. Not exactly the best trade. So if you force 1 or 2 levels in base classes and prestige classes you sacrifice a lot of raw power in the long run.
Besides, it looks messy on your character sheet. ;) Plus, you have to look through three books to write up an NPC, that's annoying too. But mostly its a problem of character power level vs. his expected challenge rating.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Sure, you could build that level into the other PrCs to avoid having more than one prestige class, but there is no downside to it the way it stands.
There is one downside that I can think off offhand, for Mystics or Sorcerers looking to become Legion Mystics or Sorcerers. You have to disrupt spell-casting progression, which I think is a big pain.
I wonder if there's not some way to fix things? I like the 3-level class, it just becomes a distraction for Mystics and Sorcerers the way it currently is.Originally posted by The Udjat
There is one downside that I can think off offhand, for Mystics or Sorcerers looking to become Legion Mystics or Sorcerers. You have to disrupt spell-casting progression, which I think is a big pain.
If you didn't want to take the single level of Steel Legionnaire, then you may opt to have additional feats as a requirement, each dependent on the class you wish to go into.
Or you could just require that the character meets all the requirements of both the Steel Legionnaire and the Legion Sorcerer or Legion Mystic. This is probably the simpler approach.
Originally posted by The Udjat
There is one downside that I can think off offhand, for Mystics or Sorcerers looking to become Legion Mystics or Sorcerers. You have to disrupt spell-casting progression, which I think is a big pain.
There's a movement now within WOTC to purposefully interrupt spell progression for prestige classes which are taken by spellcasters. One of the salient points leading to this is that very often there is no reason not to stop advancing as a sorcerer if you're going to get the +1 spells per day bonus on top of whatever else the prestige class offers you.
Thus, many recent PrCs have spellcasting advancement every other level, or miss out on an advancement at a couple of points, depending on the weight of other abilities. The Skull Knight's a good example of this - clerics who take the Skull Knight prestige class miss out on at least one level of spellcasting because the first level of Skull has no spells per day advancement.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
The more you multiclass, the less powerful your character becomes in many cases. For example, a 4th level fighter/16th level wizard gets a better +2 melee base attack, but he misses out out 9th level spells. Not exactly the best trade. So if you force 1 or 2 levels in base classes and prestige classes you sacrifice a lot of raw power in the long run.
The character you describe above not only gets +2 more BAB, but picks up 3 fighter-related feats, good Fortitude saves, and about 15 more hit points on average. Sure, you miss out on your top level spells, but not every wizard ends up with 19 Intelligence and so those spell slots would be used for lower-level spells anyway.
Cheers,
Cam
There is nothing wrong with requiring prestige class abilities, but I'm just saying it should only be done when the prestige class absolutely requires it. One should consider when designing a prestige class making it as open as possible to be played, which makes the prestige class crunchier and more useful.
The Solamnic Knights (and this is my opinion) did not need the previous prestige classes in order to capture the proper flavour of a sword or rose knight. The Crown Knight is simply a variant fighter. It still hacks things up, and have various combat abilities which are similar to fighter feats. Thus, I feel that a player shouldn't be forced to take the Crown Knight levels, but instead take them only if he feels the abilities are cool.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
There's a movement now within WOTC to purposefully interrupt spell progression for prestige classes which are taken by spellcasters. One of the salient points leading to this is that very often there is no reason not to stop advancing as a sorcerer if you're going to get the +1 spells per day bonus on top of whatever else the prestige class offers you.
However, this isn't the presiding way things have been done. It's true, in some cases, that they interrupt spell-casting progression, but on the whole they do not.
This poses a question, though: Are they trying to encourage prestige classes, or not? It looks to me like they can't make up their minds. There is always a reason not to go into a prestige class, and that amoutns to not wanting to accrue the feats and other necessary prerequisites, or not liking the flavor of the class. But for a class in which the flavor and the prerequisites fit what you have in mind, why not go into it with spell-progression uninterrupted? It makes little in-game sense for a Mystic or Sorcerer, just because they're in the Legion of Steel, to be a worse Mystic or Sorcerer than someone who isn't undergoing that route. It seems, rather, like a poor attempt at discouraging people from taking a prestige class - Which again, bears the question, what are they trying to advocate?
I like your suggestion, Dragonhelm. The only difficulty is that the LoS prestige classes still require the Legion Knowledge ability, which can ONLY be gained by taking a level of the 3-level prestige class. Not ideal circumstances. The 3-level class, however, is very nice for a Ranger, Rogue, or even a Bard (despite the fact that they cast spells), all of whom get benefits largely along the lines of what they've been gearing towards before. With that exception, your idea works (I don't recall exactly, I haven't the books on me).
And all of this supports Ferratus' claims that multi-classing is often bad for a character. This is true here. If losing a level of casting were to become standard, the matter might be somewhat different, but at this time it's non-standard, as far as I can tell, and this just trips up a Legion character as compared to other characters - Just for being in the Legion of Steel.
I've heard talk of some people turning the class ability into a feat. Perhaps this is a decent, patchwork solution? Seems wrong, though, to me. I just can't place why.
I don't know. It just seemed like, to me, adopting flavor (or prestige, as the case may be) is to be encouraged, not punished.
Originally posted by The Udjat
This poses a question, though: Are they trying to encourage prestige classes, or not?
I think they’re wanting to balance out prestige classes against base classes, ergo the lack of one spellcaster level here and there.
But for a class in which the flavor and the prerequisites fit what you have in mind, why not go into it with spell-progression uninterrupted?
I think it depends on the class. The WoHS, for example, is centered around magic, so of course they will continue with +1 caster level at every level. You may have other PrCs which incorporate magic, but it isn’t the center of the class, so they may not gain a spellcaster level at every level.
For example, let’s say that we’ve got an Arcane Archeologist prestige class. He’s sort of like Indiana Jones, yet he’s trying to find lost arcane artifacts from the Age of Dreams. Yes, he’s fluent in spellcasting, but he also focuses on dungeoneering, some combat abilities, etc. etc.
It’s just a matter of the flavor of the class, and what the class focus is.
It makes little in-game sense for a Mystic or Sorcerer, just because they're in the Legion of Steel, to be a worse Mystic or Sorcerer than someone who isn't undergoing that route.
Okay, tell me this. What sort of training does the Legion of Steel have? I would think they would teach some physical abilities, so the Legion Sorcerer or Mystic may have to learn those in order to be a better Legionnaire.
I like your suggestion, Dragonhelm. The only difficulty is that the LoS prestige classes still require the Legion Knowledge ability, which can ONLY be gained by taking a level of the 3-level prestige class.
Whoops! *slaps forehead*
You could make Legion Knowledge a feat, then, and require it for the other classes. Granted, I’m not sure if this would be overpowered for a feat or not, and it would be odd compared to a bard’s Bardic Knowledge ability or a mariner’s Sailor Lore ability.
Or you could require another feat in general, and just drop Legion Knowledge altogether.
And all of this supports Ferratus' claims that multi-classing is often bad for a character. This is true here. If losing a level of casting were to become standard, the matter might be somewhat different, but at this time it's non-standard, as far as I can tell, and this just trips up a Legion character as compared to other characters - Just for being in the Legion of Steel.
Losing a level here and there may not be THE standard, but it is frequent enough.
Try to think of this in in-world terms. I can’t imagine the Legion of Steel not giving some sort of training in regards to combat, stealth, and the like. It’s a small setback, but it does give you benefits (i.e. saves, BAB, etc.). It allows a character to survive a bit better.
Sorry, don’t have my books in front of me, so I’m not able to give specifics.
I've heard talk of some people turning the class ability into a feat. Perhaps this is a decent, patchwork solution? Seems wrong, though, to me. I just can't place why.
See above where I talk about bards and mariners.
I don't know. It just seemed like, to me, adopting flavor (or prestige, as the case may be) is to be encouraged, not punished.
Don’t get discouraged. Prestige classes are a nifty way to help shape and develop one’s character. They’re great for representing someone who works hard to join an organization, or someone who undergoes some sort of transformation, or a role in the world in general.
However, they don’t come without a price. You get more abilities in a PrC than you would had you not joined one. Something has to counterbalance this, which is seen primarily in prerequisites.
Gamers should be encouraged above all to have fun. The rules in the books are really just guidelines or suggestions, rather than strict rules that must be followed. If you change something, the Draconian Ninja Death Squad will not be knocking at your door. Go with what works best for the character, and for the game.
P.S. Even these had some problems, but they were eased away by 3.5 (ability stacking between Barbarian and Rogue for instance).
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I think they’re wanting to balance out prestige classes against base classes, ergo the lack of one spellcaster level here and there.
Not all the base classes, just the sorcerer class.
This is something that should have been fixed for 3.5, but for some reason didn't get done. Perhaps because being able to cast specific arcane spells over and over again is too good an ability to let them add metamagic feats or any other special abilities. I'm not good enough of a rules smith to say. I also haven't seen tons of alternate sorcerers written up like I have alternate rangers, but perhaps that is next. Or perhaps the special abilities granted by the 1st or 2nd party rulebook prestige classes don't benefit the sorcerer enough to make him noticeably too powerful. Does anybody else have the answers to these questions about sorcerer mechanics?
Okay, tell me this. What sort of training does the Legion of Steel have? I would think they would teach some physical abilities, so the Legion Sorcerer or Mystic may have to learn those in order to be a better Legionnaire.
Yep, but that's covered by a minimum BAB prerequisite, not a 1st level in fighter or Steel Legionaire. As well, you can simply require things like ranks in the skills hide and gather information and such to gain the same flavour.
See, by requiring prior prestige classes, where does it end? For example, take the Legion Scout abilities of Region Familiarity (Ex) and Safe Haven (Ex). Certainly it seems reasonable that all legion mystics and legion sorcerers should learn those too to be a better legionnaire. But we both know that isn't reasonable, both in terms of gaming mechanics and the fact that in an organization such as legion of steel you have people with different abilities. Some are spies who pound the pavement, some use divinations, some use disguise, some use intimidation and force. Then there are legion of Steel members who don't deal in information at all but simply trained fighters and killers.
Anyway, I think I'm talking in circles now, but I'll leave this last point. While there isn't anything wrong with demanding a level, I think we can all agree that it is better to try and capture the flavour of an organization through feats and ranks in certain skills before demanding something as drastic as a level.
As well, if we're building prestige classes on top of prestige classes, perhaps this is a sign that we are spending too much time on just a few organizations (the knighthoods and WoHS) and should be looking to develop other organizations and power groups.
For example, I love the Cabal of the True Heart (which I am renaming the Last Disciples of Takhisis) who are the ones who are involved in brainwashing and extracting information from people through mental spells.
Now the members of this group are all going to be high-ranking Skull Knights of Nereka. I have to decide whether or not it requires a prestige class. Certainly I am motivated by a desire to give brand new mental abilities, which would certainly be cool and have cool names like "rake over the coals".
However, the first thing I look at is the prestige class of the Dark Knights. What am I given in the Skull Knight prestige class that will really influence the character other than group affiliation? I see the only thing that really has any applicable value is "discern lies" which is a spell. So obviously, the Dark Cleric isn't going to be really applicable to designing the character other than them being fighter/mystics. So obviously I don't really need the Dark Knight prestige class, even though they would be the only ones who should qualify for this prestige class.
Then I wonder if I really need this prestige class. If I want them to have the feel of the Skull Knights in addition to the mental abilities, maybe I should consider just customizing the Skull Knight with feats or some other ability. That's when I'll realize that all of these mental abilities will be spell-like abilities. If that is the case, I might as well just make a few spells.
So in the end, what I write is a small article without rules describing who they are, and what they do. For crunch, I write up a few spells to do what discern lies, dominate, charm person, read thoughts do not cover. That's all I really need.
Too many people I see go around and take a world and decide something isn't the way it should be and changes it. Which is fine, but basically you are making a whole different world. Where does it end? "I don't like the chromatic dragons.. I'll make them gem dragons instead" and "Oh I think orcs should be in every world, I'll add them since Krynn doesn't have them".
I understand this is a little bit more extreme, but how much can you change Dragonlance until it isn't Dragonlance anymore. I know this little small change in the Knights of Solamnia prerequisites isnt't huge, but still... its been clearly established exactly how it works.
But I guess its your campaign, and everyone has the right to change it how they want.
First of a player can not play a WoHS without taking the prestige class. The knight thing is based on coolnees, real life military concepts, and a heirarcy or pecking order. You can not be a pilot in real life without being an officer...to be an officer requires college. You have to have some of these things if you want to keep it dragonlance. Look, at 20th level...who is going to be stringer? A straight Rose knight, (with pre-rec class of course) or aknight that has special abilities from all three knight classes. This is the reason that Paladins aren't in Dragonlance. They are basically All three knight classes plus fighter plus some cleric all in one. Remeber this is a world that in 2nd Edition capped all players at 18 or 20th level.
Originally posted by ImSnooker
First of a player can not play a WoHS without taking the prestige class.
The only requirement for belonging to the WoHS is to pass the test of High Sorcery. You can play a member of the WoHS without the prestige class if you wish.
Look, at 20th level...who is going to be stringer? A straight Rose knight, (with pre-rec class of course) or aknight that has special abilities from all three knight classes.
A straight Rose Knight.
Prestige classes, especially those in Dragonlance, often represent membership within an organization. Dragonlance is somewhat unique in that it is a setting that mandates the use of a prestige class (in the case of the WoHS), as well as having multiple prestige classes that build one upon another (seen with the Knights of Solamnia). While Dragonlance is, IMO, a perfect world for prestige classes, it is a world that breaks some of the norms in regard to prestige classes as well.
What are prestige classes, then, but a tool to allow us to play a role in a setting? Prestige classes are one tool that can be used, but not the only one.
When people talk about not using the Steel Legionnaire, or using base classes to represent the KoS or WoHS, all they are doing is using a different set of tools to play the same role. The role in the world doesn’t change – only the means on how to achieve that role.
Really, it’s no different than playing (as an example) a Jedi Knight in the d6 or d20 systems. Each game system is a different set of tools for playing the same role, but no matter which way you go, you’re playing a Jedi Knight.
So all we’re talking about here are the tools being used to achieve the desired role.
From Ferratus…
Originally posted by ferratus
For example, I love the Cabal of the True Heart (which I am renaming the Last Disciples of Takhisis) who are the ones who are involved in brainwashing and extracting information from people through mental spells.
They’re one of the three splinter organizations of the Skull Knights mentioned in Heroes of Hope, right?
Here’s a perfect example of how the same role can be approached in different ways. You could do a prestige class to add onto the Skull Knight to represent this, or you could stick with role-playing and skill/feat selection.
This is the reason that Paladins aren't in Dragonlance. They are basically All three knight classes plus fighter plus some cleric all in one.
This is a common and, IMO, unfortunate view of the paladin. What about the Kagonesti champion who wears leather armor and summons his spirit steed? What about the kender hero who follows the ways of “Grampa Fizban”, riding upon his warpony?
These are both paladins, yet they don’t come across as knights, now do they?
Paladins are, unfortunately, stereotypically thought of in terms of being a holy knight, but they don’t have to be limited to that one role.
You can go around and assassinate people even if you don't have levels in the assassin prestige class. But for specific groups, I would require levels in their corresponding prestige class.
I personally, would lower the standards to get into the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class, so that basically anyone who casts spells that are high enough can get into it anytime. This goes with the fact that all wizards are "expected" to be members. That way if they only wanted to take one level, its up to them and didn't penalize them really. Which brings me to a small little point, while I like the war mage, it seems most people would rather take that all the time, instead of advancing sometimes as a Wizard of High Sorcery. Archmage is a big one too.
Originally posted by True_Blue
I personally, would lower the standards to get into the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class, so that basically anyone who casts spells that are high enough can get into it anytime. This goes with the fact that all wizards are "expected" to be members.
I'm not really sure what you mean Blue. You can qualify to be a Wizard of High Sorcery at 3rd level. If it was any lower, you would just make it a base class.
If it is a base class, it kind of defeats the purpose of having "the Test" to prove you are worthy to join the ranks of the elite mages. Especially since you feel that joining the prestige is what makes you a member of the organization.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
They’re one of the three splinter organizations of the Skull Knights mentioned in Heroes of Hope, right?
Here’s a perfect example of how the same role can be approached in different ways. You could do a prestige class to add onto the Skull Knight to represent this, or you could stick with role-playing and skill/feat selection.
Yep, but the point I was making was if the flavour of the prestige class is "Exactly like the Skull Knights of Nereka, only with these abilities too" that seems like it is more appropriate to use spells, skills, and feats rather than another prestige class. Prestige classes are supposed to have distinct flavour.
I personally am so glad they put the clause in Age of Mortals so that you can be a generalist wizard and a WoHS. If a person wants to be a specialist, let them. But a Black Robe and Red Robe always had to choose Abjuration as a banned school. Also, if you allow the generalist rule, I don't see any point in requiring a generalist WoHS having to have spell focus.
Again, I personally would just require the two item creation feats or metamagic just because all wizards start with Scribe Scroll anyways and will pretty much have another item creation or metamagic one anyways.
But in the end, its not really a huge deal.
With the legionaire, I wasn't a big fan of the legion classes requiring one level in the Steel Legionaire, but again it's not a huge deal. I could take it or leave it.
With Knights of Solamnia though, I cannot imagine not requiring prior classes in the other knights to eventually get to Rose. That is how the knighthood is structured. Its how it was made and laid out.
Originally posted by ferratus
You can qualify to be a Wizard of High Sorcery at 3rd level.
Not true. You can't meet the requirements before 4th level, because of the "Base Will Save +4" and "Spellcraft 7 ranks" requirements.
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
Not true. You can't meet the requirements before 4th level, because of the "Base Will Save +4" and "Spellcraft 7 ranks" requirements.
Ah, I see. That makes a lot of sense, because that means that it was deliberately designed so that Raistlin in a 3e conversion of the original modules (where everyone is 5th level) would have 4 levels of wizard, and one level of WoHS.
Unlike Blue and Sovereign Press, I think that a wizard shouldn't be eligible to become a WoHS until he is around 5th or 6th level, because that is when a wizard starts getting into the top 10% of spellcasters, and when spells can cause more damage to large numbers of people than a warrior's attack roll. When a wizard can cast fireball, that's where he is truly dangerous.
As for the Knights, I need more than just "this is how it was always done" especially since we are dealing with mechanics from 2 editions ago. I have other concerns. Mechanical balance is one, the annoyance of trying to keep track of 4 or 5 different classes when making a Knight of the Rose NPC is another. Mostly though, it goes against my desire to create original characters. The more levels I'm required to have, the less my character becomes an individual because he will look almost like every other Knight of the Rose. So I just let the Knight of Solamnia train as a Squire until he is ready to assume the responsibilities and identity of the order he chooses.
Btw, I cover the "previous orders" flavour by requiring the "Squire of the Crown", "Acolyte of the Sword" and "Novitiate of the Rose" feats which I created. Thus, they are in the previous orders before making their final choice, just as it has always been.
Originally posted by ferratus
Unlike Blue and Sovereign Press, I think that a wizard shouldn't be eligible to become a WoHS until he is around 5th or 6th level, because that is when a wizard starts getting into the top 10% of spellcasters, and when spells can cause more damage to large numbers of people than a warrior's attack roll. When a wizard can cast fireball, that's where he is truly dangerous.
You may note that the Wizard of High Sorcery class has been created in such a way that your first 3rd level spells, the beginnings of true power, are acquired at your 1st level of the PrC. A wizard would qualify for the class while those spells were just out of reach, and then the +1 spellcaster progression opens the gate so to speak.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by True_Blue
I don't think a person should be able to be a Wizard of High Sorcery without taking the prestige class. Likewise, I wouldn't say "your a knight of solamnia" if the character hasn't taking any levels in the Knight of the Crown. I guess to me the prestige class is what makes you what you are.
Believe it or not, I feel the same way. I like that mechanical representation of joining an organization.
I just wanted to show that there were multiple ways of doing the same thing.
I guess I'm a little bit of a stickler for detail. I don't think that a KoS should have to have Crown levels "just because", but that it was written like that throughout the novels and the game. I kind of see it as a big deal for some reason, which other people seem to not, *shrug*. To me, it would be like saying Wizards don't hunt down other wizards who don't belong to the High Sorcery or such like that. Dragonlance is rich in culture and certain organizations, the main ones, were made a certain way. To take that away, to me, seems to take away a little bit from the campaign.
Personally if it came down to where I wanted PC's to be more uniquie, I'd dumb down the requirements for the KoS prestige classes and make it less strict. This way more people would qualify with more diverse feats and abilities. I said the same about WoHS in my above post. But they are better off because they get to choose any two metamagic or item creation feats.
But all in all, everyone has their own campaign and the way its done. As i stated above, I'd love to see the stats for the feats you came up with. If ya didn't mind showing them.
Originally posted by ferratus
Unlike Blue and Sovereign Press, I think that a wizard shouldn't be eligible to become a WoHS until he is around 5th or 6th level, because that is when a wizard starts getting into the top 10% of spellcasters, and when spells can cause more damage to large numbers of people than a warrior's attack roll. When a wizard can cast fireball, that's where he is truly dangerous.
Technically there is a legal way that this can occur. If a wizard doesn't meet all the requirements at the time that they reach 4th level of the class, they cannot take the PrC, thus they can progress into the 5th level of wizard. It is kind of a cheap way to avoid some of negatives of the class, but it can be worked into the character element. The one that affected my character was not having enough metamagic feats. So at 5th level wizard he got his 2nd metamagic feat to fill the requirements of the PrC, but he in turn gained 3rd level spells. He had taken his test before hand, but theoretically he could have taken 3rd level spells from his school to which he wasn't restricted from yet, enchantment. He took only one 3rd level spell from that school, Hold Person, because it fit his personality as someone who tries not to kill unless needed to. Then, when 6th level rolled around, he met all the requirements for the PrC and took his first level in WoHS.