Big evils in Ravenloft- Scary but weak? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Big evils in Ravenloft- Scary but weak?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
myrkul_lives_again
Nov 20, 2003 1:46:51 It may just be me, but after flipping through the Ravenloft Gazeteer Volume 1 and seeing the stats on some of the "biggest" and "Baddest" Ravenloft has to offer, I was slightly disappointed. Strahd and Hazlik were rather... weak compared to some of those villains FR puts out or even the somewhat scary undead Gygax offers in his Necropolis.

More to the point, White Wolf, probably my preferred game maker, is notorious for not given out true stats on their powerful NPCs, and yet they did, and I was sorely disappointed. Anyone else have these feelings?
#2
john_w._mangrum
Nov 20, 2003 2:19:27 Really, you just have to keep in mind that the Forgotten Realms has a much heavier focus on high-level campaigning than Ravenloft. The two settings have different goals.
#3
The_Jester
Nov 20, 2003 2:23:35 Yes Strahd couldn't last very long against Monshoon (sp?) and Azalin would get his boney butt kicked by Slazz or whatever that Thay's name is.
But then again the heroes of the Realms are packing +5 vorpal swords and riding unicorns and tossing fireballs like they were nothing.

In Ravenloft where a +1 sword is a fantastic treasure for a tenth level hero who has been adventuring for twenty years I think Strahd is still a threat!

Low magic is low power. Plus Strahd has personality and character and is far more than numbers on a page. You can condense Monshoon into a single collum of background and game stats but in the Gaz you'll notice Strahd's personality and background are slightly longer and take up more space than his stats.

And the monsters in Gyax's Necropolis really aren't scary, they're just tough. A dragon is hardly horrifying in a gothic sense, but that doesn't mean its a wimp.

If you want Strahd to be a 20th level necro with a few epic levels go ahead, but I don't think it'll make much difference to him. Especiall when the heroes are still sorely outclassed a CR: 10 beastie.
#4
zombiegleemax
Nov 23, 2003 19:29:15 First off I think you're cracked if you don't find Strahd (or even a "second string" darklord in terms of power, like Harkon) to be threatening. And might be misunderstanding the setting if you think that a party of 17th+ level PCs ought to be cruising through the Core whacking evil where ever they find it. That's really not what RL is about.

Ravenloft in general is a poor choice to use against very high level heros to begin with. Gothic horror is inextricably linked to the idea of "weaker" heroes. For example Stoker's Dracula goes up against a doctor/psychiatrist (expert), a british aristocrat, a solicitor (expert) and an american pseudo-cowboy. The storry just doesn't work if the protagonists are the likes of Elminster and Strider.

If you are looking for tougher monsters with a "creepy" label you are better off w/ GG's Necropolis.

-Eric Gorman
#5
zombiegleemax
Nov 23, 2003 20:22:32 Even if you do level up strahd, their is a good chance that your PC's will never make it to him. He has a large amount of followers. he has the Ebon Gargoyle, the Sheriff. and his castle is a fortress. he also has his choking fog. If a PC can make it to him then they deserve to beat him.
#6
zombiegleemax
Nov 23, 2003 20:52:55 Manshoon- Evil Archmage who Elminster kills every other week.

Strahd- Vampire Lord of Barovia, has survived the efforts of everyone trying to kill him thus far.

No contest.
#7
keg_of_ale
Nov 23, 2003 21:30:05 Though I admit that Strahd is as high powerful evils in Ravenloft can hope to rise, I'm griefed that there are so few powerful villains in Ravenloft myself. Azalin, God-Brain... Maybe Misroi, that's about all. After reading Ravenloft sourcebooks so far, I've come to the conclusion that it works best for 10th-level heroes at most. After that, not even Darklords are challenging.
#8
rotipher
Nov 25, 2003 13:06:34 With all those level-draining undead in RL, who says PCs ever *need* to get past 10th level...? Standard 3E characters are designed to last less than a year of IRL play before they retire at lvl 20; Ravenloft characters are designed to provide *years* of scary fun, pretty much irregardless of whether you're advancing steadily or recovering from a spanking that dropped you down to 1st level again. Heck, a graph of good ol' van Richten's experience levels would look like an EKG reading!

If playing in RL was about accumulating power, we'd all be playing darklords, anyway.
#9
The_Jester
Nov 25, 2003 13:20:54 Well Strahd is a Challange Rating of 24, only one less than Manshoon.
Hardly underpowered since it would take a group of four 24th level characters to be a match for him. Although, in theory, four or so 20th level characters could take him with casulties.
#10
keg_of_ale
Nov 25, 2003 15:50:47
Originally posted by The_Jester
Well Strahd is a Challange Rating of 24, only one less than Manshoon.
Hardly underpowered since it would take a group of four 24th level characters to be a match for him. Although, in theory, four or so 20th level characters could take him with casulties.

Don't base the Darklords' strengh solely on their CR. Strahd (and many other Darklords) are far weaker in battle than their CR would have us believe.
#11
Keen_Man
Nov 25, 2003 15:56:02 The true power of most dark lords lies in their cunning and planning. Surrounding themselves with impenetrable forces and mystique. Laying plans to tempt and corrupt the hero’s or destroy them using third parties. A face-to-face with a dark lord should be a scary occasion with the pc's not wanting to attack him for some reason.

"Should you raise even one hand against me or impede my progress your home village will burn to the ground and all its inhabitance subject to things to which you do not wish to know"

A quote form my own game.
#12
b4real
Nov 25, 2003 16:46:32
Originally posted by Keen_Man
The true power of most dark lords lies in their cunning and planning. Surrounding themselves with impenetrable forces and mystique. Laying plans to tempt and corrupt the hero’s or destroy them using third parties. A face-to-face with a dark lord should be a scary occasion with the pc's not wanting to attack him for some reason.

"Should you raise even one hand against me or impede my progress your home village will burn to the ground and all its inhabitance subject to things to which you do not wish to know"

A quote form my own game.

Exactly, Ravenloft is not a hack and slash campaign setting. Too many people think that RL is just DnD with undead instead of Orcs. If you(Not you in particular keen_man.) think that is what RavenLoft is then you had better read the books a bit more thoroughly.

~B4Real

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 myrkul_lives_again Nov 20, 2003 1:46:51	It may just be me, but after flipping through the Ravenloft Gazeteer Volume 1 and seeing the stats on some of the "biggest" and "Baddest" Ravenloft has to offer, I was slightly disappointed. Strahd and Hazlik were rather... weak compared to some of those villains FR puts out or even the somewhat scary undead Gygax offers in his Necropolis. More to the point, White Wolf, probably my preferred game maker, is notorious for not given out true stats on their powerful NPCs, and yet they did, and I was sorely disappointed. Anyone else have these feelings?
#2 john_w._mangrum Nov 20, 2003 2:19:27	Really, you just have to keep in mind that the Forgotten Realms has a much heavier focus on high-level campaigning than Ravenloft. The two settings have different goals.
#3 The_Jester Nov 20, 2003 2:23:35	Yes Strahd couldn't last very long against Monshoon (sp?) and Azalin would get his boney butt kicked by Slazz or whatever that Thay's name is. But then again the heroes of the Realms are packing +5 vorpal swords and riding unicorns and tossing fireballs like they were nothing. In Ravenloft where a +1 sword is a fantastic treasure for a tenth level hero who has been adventuring for twenty years I think Strahd is still a threat! Low magic is low power. Plus Strahd has personality and character and is far more than numbers on a page. You can condense Monshoon into a single collum of background and game stats but in the Gaz you'll notice Strahd's personality and background are slightly longer and take up more space than his stats. And the monsters in Gyax's Necropolis really aren't scary, they're just tough. A dragon is hardly horrifying in a gothic sense, but that doesn't mean its a wimp. If you want Strahd to be a 20th level necro with a few epic levels go ahead, but I don't think it'll make much difference to him. Especiall when the heroes are still sorely outclassed a CR: 10 beastie.
#4 zombiegleemax Nov 23, 2003 19:29:15	First off I think you're cracked if you don't find Strahd (or even a "second string" darklord in terms of power, like Harkon) to be threatening. And might be misunderstanding the setting if you think that a party of 17th+ level PCs ought to be cruising through the Core whacking evil where ever they find it. That's really not what RL is about. Ravenloft in general is a poor choice to use against very high level heros to begin with. Gothic horror is inextricably linked to the idea of "weaker" heroes. For example Stoker's Dracula goes up against a doctor/psychiatrist (expert), a british aristocrat, a solicitor (expert) and an american pseudo-cowboy. The storry just doesn't work if the protagonists are the likes of Elminster and Strider. If you are looking for tougher monsters with a "creepy" label you are better off w/ GG's Necropolis. -Eric Gorman
#5 zombiegleemax Nov 23, 2003 20:22:32	Even if you do level up strahd, their is a good chance that your PC's will never make it to him. He has a large amount of followers. he has the Ebon Gargoyle, the Sheriff. and his castle is a fortress. he also has his choking fog. If a PC can make it to him then they deserve to beat him.
#6 zombiegleemax Nov 23, 2003 20:52:55	Manshoon- Evil Archmage who Elminster kills every other week. Strahd- Vampire Lord of Barovia, has survived the efforts of everyone trying to kill him thus far. No contest.
#7 keg_of_ale Nov 23, 2003 21:30:05	Though I admit that Strahd is as high powerful evils in Ravenloft can hope to rise, I'm griefed that there are so few powerful villains in Ravenloft myself. Azalin, God-Brain... Maybe Misroi, that's about all. After reading Ravenloft sourcebooks so far, I've come to the conclusion that it works best for 10th-level heroes at most. After that, not even Darklords are challenging.
#8 rotipher Nov 25, 2003 13:06:34	With all those level-draining undead in RL, who says PCs ever need to get past 10th level...? Standard 3E characters are designed to last less than a year of IRL play before they retire at lvl 20; Ravenloft characters are designed to provide years of scary fun, pretty much irregardless of whether you're advancing steadily or recovering from a spanking that dropped you down to 1st level again. Heck, a graph of good ol' van Richten's experience levels would look like an EKG reading! If playing in RL was about accumulating power, we'd all be playing darklords, anyway.
#9 The_Jester Nov 25, 2003 13:20:54	Well Strahd is a Challange Rating of 24, only one less than Manshoon. Hardly underpowered since it would take a group of four 24th level characters to be a match for him. Although, in theory, four or so 20th level characters could take him with casulties.
#10 keg_of_ale Nov 25, 2003 15:50:47	Originally posted by The_Jester Well Strahd is a Challange Rating of 24, only one less than Manshoon. Hardly underpowered since it would take a group of four 24th level characters to be a match for him. Although, in theory, four or so 20th level characters could take him with casulties. Don't base the Darklords' strengh solely on their CR. Strahd (and many other Darklords) are far weaker in battle than their CR would have us believe.
#11 Keen_Man Nov 25, 2003 15:56:02	The true power of most dark lords lies in their cunning and planning. Surrounding themselves with impenetrable forces and mystique. Laying plans to tempt and corrupt the hero’s or destroy them using third parties. A face-to-face with a dark lord should be a scary occasion with the pc's not wanting to attack him for some reason. "Should you raise even one hand against me or impede my progress your home village will burn to the ground and all its inhabitance subject to things to which you do not wish to know" A quote form my own game.
#12 b4real Nov 25, 2003 16:46:32	Originally posted by Keen_Man The true power of most dark lords lies in their cunning and planning. Surrounding themselves with impenetrable forces and mystique. Laying plans to tempt and corrupt the hero’s or destroy them using third parties. A face-to-face with a dark lord should be a scary occasion with the pc's not wanting to attack him for some reason. "Should you raise even one hand against me or impede my progress your home village will burn to the ground and all its inhabitance subject to things to which you do not wish to know" A quote form my own game. Exactly, Ravenloft is not a hack and slash campaign setting. Too many people think that RL is just DnD with undead instead of Orcs. If you(Not you in particular keen_man.) think that is what RavenLoft is then you had better read the books a bit more thoroughly. ~B4Real