Also, if you use the option of non-specialization in Age of Mortals campaign setting companion, can a sorceror with arcane preparation feat qualify for WoHS?
On the side line, what happens to the Grey Robes? They were supposed to be affected by all 3 moons...
As for Sorcerers in WoHS, if you want it like that in your campaign, no one is going to stop you.
Originally posted by Seraph of Babel
Given that Wizards of High Sorcery sees other arcane spellcasters as dangerous renegades, will the order admit a character with levels in both wizard and sorceror? After all, half of his magic (levels) is still ungoverned by the moons.
According to Sovereign Press, this isn't possible. High Sorcery and wild or primal sorcery are like oil and water, and do not mix in the hands of mortals.
Also, if you use the option of non-specialization in Age of Mortals campaign setting companion, can a sorceror with arcane preparation feat qualify for WoHS?
A very skilled sorcerer might be able to pull it off, but the nature of the Test of High Sorcery does involve the gods of magic on several levels. At the conclusion of the Test, with the sorcerer having expended all of his resources and efforts, his reliance on wild magic will be discovered. In such a case, I would offer the player the choice of having an epiphany - changing focus - and converting his sorcerer levels to wizard levels. There's no option for them within the Orders otherwise.
On the side line, what happens to the Grey Robes? They were supposed to be affected by all 3 moons...
This only happened for a very short period of time, leading up to and during the Summer of Chaos. It's believed now that Takhisis stole the magic from the moons, redirecting it towards her Thorn Knights in much the same way as she bestowed Galan Dracos and Ariakas with their magic (despite both of them being renegades outside of the Orders). Stealing magic seems to be one of her favorite tactics, one which never really helped her relationship with her son, Nuitari.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
This only happened for a very short period of time, leading up to and during the Summer of Chaos. It's believed now that Takhisis stole the magic from the moons, redirecting it towards her Thorn Knights in much the same way as she bestowed Galan Dracos and Ariakas with their magic (despite both of them being renegades outside of the Orders). Stealing magic seems to be one of her favorite tactics, one which never really helped her relationship with her son, Nuitari.
Only necessary though, if you beleive that the gods of magic grant the magic to mages directly as the other gods do for clerics. To me, Ariakas was a black robe (the WoHS no longer have the weapons restriction in 3e), Galan Dracos was a renegade. She may have been stealing magic for the Thorn Knights, since they were more powerful than other wizards in their heyday.
The problem with Takhisis stealing magic for every wizard that answers to her rather than Nuitari is that you write wizardly renegades out of the picture entirely. Are we to assume that sorcerers are now the renegades of previous ages? I think not.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
According to Sovereign Press, this isn't possible. High Sorcery and wild or primal sorcery are like oil and water, and do not mix in the hands of mortals.
Why not? 3E allows multi-classing. Even paladins/monks can multi-class (gaining levels subsequently is another matter though). I don't recall any rules stopping wizards from taking levels in sorceror.
And as such, I would state that any sorceror that successfully took the Test of High Sorcery would thusly be held to those rules, as to take the test, you must accept the restrictions of the Order - and that would dictate the binding of yourself to one of the three moons.
Correlanthias
Originally posted by ferratus
Only necessary though, if you beleive that the gods of magic grant the magic to mages directly as the other gods do for clerics. To me, Ariakas was a black robe (the WoHS no longer have the weapons restriction in 3e), Galan Dracos was a renegade. She may have been stealing magic for the Thorn Knights, since they were more powerful than other wizards in their heyday.
The gods of magic don't grant the magic directly to wizards, but their patronage does influence those who have passed the Test and commited themselves to the Orders. It's my belief that Ariakas was one of Takhisis' "test runs" for the Knighthood that his son would eventually found. He didn't have Nuitari as a patron, but the Queen of Darkness. I wouldn't assume the other wizards in the Dragonarmies during the War of the Lance were similarly gifted.
In large part, the Orders left Ariakas alone (with regard to his use of weapons and armor) because of his associations with Takhisis and his personal power and status. There probably wasn't anything they could do about it, although in the end Raistlin (and Tanis) managed to do some of their work for them. If it was no skin off their nose that their wizards could use swords, many many more of them would have done (and they didn't.)
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
The problem with Takhisis stealing magic for every wizard that answers to her rather than Nuitari is that you write wizardly renegades out of the picture entirely. Are we to assume that sorcerers are now the renegades of previous ages? I think not.
The other problem is that we make Takhisis the 4th god of magic, which definitely disrupts the Balance.
I can see Takhisis stealing magic for the Thorn Knights based on how their background is described, but otherwise, renegades should pull their magic from the pool of magic that is High Sorcery, even if they are not affected by the waxing and waning of the moons.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I can see Takhisis stealing magic for the Thorn Knights based on how their background is described, but otherwise, renegades should pull their magic from the pool of magic that is High Sorcery, even if they are not affected by the waxing and waning of the moons.
I'm talking about two individuals prior to the Thorn Knights, not legions of others in the past. Takhisis steals magic, and very likely wanted to try it out first before she went ahead and did it wholesale with the Gray Robes. Hence, the Ariakas-as-proto-Thorn Knight theory, and the Galan Dracos-as-boosted-renegade theory (from a time when she was very overt about throwing power around and supporting Galan despite the protests of the Black Robes and Nuitari).
Cheers,
Cam
The other possibility is that Ariakas was a renegade, and the black robes didn't touch him as they were afraid of the wrath of Takhisis. Grudgingly, they worked with him.
Or, he passed the Test, so he's a black robe still. He's just not very active in those regards. Perhaps the Conclave hasn't acted on him yet, again perhaps fearing his association with Takhisis.
At this point, I don't think we have enough info to know for sure.
BTW, it's Galan, not Galen. Just wanted to clarify.
The weapon's restriction of the orders was just to explain the limited weapons list in 2e. In 3e it has become a tradition that only the traditionalist mages would follow. Ariakas, as a large strong warrior, was simply not a traditional skinny magician. He was not raised in the subculture of the schoolhouse and the conclave, but the army camp and the temple.
Now, as for the Thorn Knights, I suppose the stealing magic idea would work, but the problem is, how was she doing the stealing? What mechanism did she use?
Personally, I think it makes much more sense for the various renegades, scattered and hunted, simply being seduced by and finding shelter with, the Knights of the Thorn. Most were black robes, but a few were white robes and red robes as well, fallen under the dark queen's sway. They brought their knowledge with them, and combined that knowledge and their numbers into a force powerful enough to challenge the conclave. Much simpler, and I think that was the original concept of the Thorn Knights anyway.
The appendix of Second Generation said that the Thorn Knights drew their magic from all 3 moons, and said that they were affected by the waxing and waning of the moons as well.
The compromise theory is that Takhisis drew power from all the gods of magic, redirecting it to the Thorn Knights. You don't have the waxing and waning in effect, but that would be complicated anyway.
Note that some, but not all, of the original Thorn Knights came from the ranks of the black robes.
*shrugs*
1) How did she steal magic during the Chaos War? In the 5th Age she was the one god, and she had the souls of the dead at her command. How did she steal it without them, or how did the living mages do it?
2) If you're going to take away the waxing and waning of the moons effect, why not simply make them renegades and be done with it? Why do you need Takhisis to steal magic at all?
3) What exactly were the consequences of stealing magic? How was the order of creation disrupted? Could another god (such as Morgion) also do it, and what would be the consequences if he could? If he cannot, why could Takhisis do it?
Arakias had passed the test. So he was aassociated with the WoHS at some time, if even just to take the test. But with the DLCS, things get muddy with wizards and clerics where WoHS act like clerics but with arcane magic. How does Arakias get magic, if he reveres Takhisis? If he was using magic and was a WoHS, then he had to revere Nuitari right? Maybe he had to go renegade. I know Arakias isn't a cleric of Takhisis, but he still revered her as his patron. In the DLCS, you can't be a cleric and a wizard since they both have a patron deity. So, I guess I just wonder if maybe Arakias turned renegade.
Originally posted by ferratus
1) How did she steal magic during the Chaos War? In the 5th Age she was the one god, and she had the souls of the dead at her command. How did she steal it without them, or how did the living mages do it?
There's a couple of trains of thought on this. First, the Thorn Knights may have secret rituals which may accomplish this effect.
Second, Takhisis is the head of the gods of evil. She's powerful enough that she can do whatever she likes.
2) If you're going to take away the waxing and waning of the moons effect, why not simply make them renegades and be done with it? Why do you need Takhisis to steal magic at all?
Having them as renegades does seem easiest. Perhaps Takhisis showed them ways to give them extra abilities found in the prestige class, and the tales of them taking magic from all three moons is the stuff of legend.
3) What exactly were the consequences of stealing magic? How was the order of creation disrupted? Could another god (such as Morgion) also do it, and what would be the consequences if he could? If he cannot, why could Takhisis do it?
It's a bit of a theory of mine that the heads of each of the pantheons have dominion over all the abilities of the lesser gods in the pantheons, but instead delegate those abilities out. It would be a way to explain how Takhisis can grant arcane energy to the Thorn Knights, and how Fizban casts arcane magic.
I doubt a lesser or intermediate god beyond the Moon Gods could grant arcane energies.
Anyway, this is all just theory.
Originally posted by True_Blue
I know Arakias isn't a cleric of Takhisis,
According to Tales of the Lance, Ariakas was a fighter/cleric. So there's another continuity "burp". ;)
The compromise solution would be that he was a fighter/cleric/wizard, although he would most definitely have to be renegade to go that route.
Why is Ariakas considered a renegade? In Chronicles, Dragons of Spring Dawning, book 2 chapter 2, I seem to recall him clearly telling Kitiara as they were discussing Lord Soth something to the effect of "I faced horrors in the Towers of High Sorcery during the test..." So I believe he is not a renegade and did indeed pass the test and is a black robe. I doubt he would have been very committed, and probably had little to do with the conclave and treated them with disdain, most likely however.
Also, although a cleric in the gaming material, weis and hickman decided that they wanted him to be a wizard for the books, so changed that. I have always thought the general feeling is that the books in this case were considered 'canon' and most consider him a wizard. One who did pass the test, but wasn't very dedicated and had more love for war.
So I would consider Ariakas to have passed the test and have levels as a Black robed Wizard of High Sorcery.
Cheers.
Originally posted by Tyreal42
So I would consider Ariakas to have passed the test and have levels as a Black robed Wizard of High Sorcery.
A renegade is a wizard who defies the edicts of the Orders of High Sorcery. He can do this by practicing magic beyond simple spells without having passed the Test, or by breaking from the Orders themselves and acting counter to their traditions and restrictions.
Raistlin was very nearly considered a renegade, but the Conclave was too scared of him. However, any Red, White or Black robed wizard who willingly acts against the Orders could be considered a renegade, also.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
A renegade is a wizard who defies the edicts of the Orders of High Sorcery. He can do this by practicing magic beyond simple spells without having passed the Test, or by breaking from the Orders themselves and acting counter to their traditions and restrictions.
Which of course, he didn't do. One has to let go of the idea that a person isn't a renegade for using a 4 foot long peice of metal. It just isn't that important. The black robes worked willingly with Ariakas, to their mutual benefit. He had no desire to supplant the Orders, nor to control all magic. He wanted to control people. If the conclave has issues with people who desire to be dictators and conquerors, then they should all join up with the Legion of Steel.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
According to Tales of the Lance, Ariakas was a fighter/cleric. So there's another continuity "burp". ;)
The compromise solution would be that he was a fighter/cleric/wizard, although he would most definitely have to be renegade to go that route.
My compromise solution is to say that the Ariakas the cleric (in the modules and novel) was Arakakis Sr. the father of Ariakas the Fighter/Wizard. It explains away not only the different classes, but also the different backstories.
As for the cleric/wizard conundrum, one doesn't have to be a renegade to be a cleric/wizard. One could serve Paladine and Solinari with all their heart and soul because their goals do not conflict. Or if they do, it is just too good an adventure seed to pass up for 2e game mechanics.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Having them as renegades does seem easiest. Perhaps Takhisis showed them ways to give them extra abilities found in the prestige class, and the tales of them taking magic from all three moons is the stuff of legend.
See, it doesn't really matter for the Thorn Knights themselves. There will never be enough interest in the Chaos War for a 3e sourcebook to be made about it. You and I can presumably agree on that.
What matters is the next renegade order to come along. What happens then? I do not believe that the gods of magic can simply nod their heads and decide that people can't cast magic anymore (which is why you need Takhisis to steal it). Renegades prove this to be a lie by their very existance.
Magic is not the left over energies of creation. It is the energies that infuses creation. An ineffible force that is the soul of the universe, the rhythmic cycles of good, evil and balance that wash over everything. It is a non-sentient living thing that reaches the full potential of destiny through the binding of itself to the wizard's soul. It becomes what it is meant to be in the manifestation and release of spells. It feels the joy of the white robe, the satisfaction of the red robe, the cruel exultation of the black robe. That is why the magic is closer to the wizard than a lover, why it is both parent and child.
That is why the crimes of the renegade are so awful and dangerous. That is why even the good must be hunted. A renegade turns his back on the very order of creation, on the destiny of all things. The magic is wayward and enslaved, merely a tool in the renegade's hands. It is not good, evil, or balance... it is nothing. Takhisis did not disrupt the order of creation by stealing magic, she disrupted it by sheltering and encouraging these renegades.
Or she stole magic because Solinari can turn off the faucet. Whatever you prefer. ;) Frankly, that kills all the drama of hunting a renegade on so many different levels, kills so many adventures, destroys the glorious ineffibility of magic. For what? So magic becomes merely an effect that happens when you mumble the right words and Solinari gives the okay?
It's a bit of a theory of mine that the heads of each of the pantheons have dominion over all the abilities of the lesser gods in the pantheons, but instead delegate those abilities out. It would be a way to explain how Takhisis can grant arcane energy to the Thorn Knights, and how Fizban casts arcane magic.
Kind of makes the rest of the pantheon irrelevant doesn't it? As for Takhisis, if she can grant arcane energy why did she need the dead to steal it? I think it is clear that Takhisis is nothing more than a renegade herself. The gods of magic are not the controllers of magic, they don't own it. They are the wellspring of the mysteries of magic, concerned with its revelations rather than the revelations that would damn or save the human soul. That is why they don't have clerics.
I doubt a lesser or intermediate god beyond the Moon Gods could grant arcane energies.
So what happens when Mishakal or Sargonnas steal magic? ;)
Originally posted by ferratus
Magic is not the left over energies of creation. It is the energies that infuses creation. An ineffible force that is the soul of the universe, the rhythmic cycles of good, evil and balance that wash over everything. It is a non-sentient living thing that reaches the full potential of destiny through the binding of itself to the wizard's soul. It becomes what it is meant to be in the manifestation and release of spells. It feels the joy of the white robe, the satisfaction of the red robe, the cruel exultation of the black robe. That is why the magic is closer to the wizard than a lover, why it is both parent and child.
It's already been established that the magic used by wizards is purified and focused towards Krynn by the presence of the moons, and that Wizards of High Sorcery through their acceptance of the patronage of one of the gods of magic may benefit from an additional degree of influence and power. Renegades who have not taken the test may still make use of magic, but without the deeper level of commitment and attachment which comes with aligning oneself to the gods of magic. Too, one who has passed the Test yet turned his back on the Gods of Magic, such as many of the earlier Thorn Knights, has severed that connection and is also a renegade.
Or she stole magic because Solinari can turn off the faucet. Whatever you prefer. ;) Frankly, that kills all the drama of hunting a renegade on so many different levels, kills so many adventures, destroys the glorious ineffibility of magic. For what? So magic becomes merely an effect that happens when you mumble the right words and Solinari gives the okay?
See above. For dabblers, magic *is* saying the right words. Solinari doesn't give the okay in either case, however - but acting in accordance with his tenets seems to imply a stronger bond with the magic than those who have not.
In cases where a renegade wizard or former member of the Orders turns from the gods of magic, many seek out alternate means of enhancing and bolstering their power. Galan Dracos had his emerald and the patronage of Takhisis. Valkyn had his suped-up rod of absorbtion that channeled magic from other wizards and enhanced his own spells. Raistlin was the Master of Past and Present, and had secrets formerly only known to Fistandantilus.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
As for the cleric/wizard conundrum, one doesn't have to be a renegade to be a cleric/wizard. One could serve Paladine and Solinari with all their heart and soul because their goals do not conflict. Or if they do, it is just too good an adventure seed to pass up for 2e game mechanics.
No, they couldn't. Only one patron deity per soul, thank you for playing, etc.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Which of course, he didn't do. One has to let go of the idea that a person isn't a renegade for using a 4 foot long peice of metal. It just isn't that important.
Know any other members of the Orders of High Sorcery who wear armor and carry a sword? Gilthanas doesn't count.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
See, it doesn't really matter for the Thorn Knights themselves. There will never be enough interest in the Chaos War for a 3e sourcebook to be made about it. You and I can presumably agree on that.
I have to disagree on this one point. However, that's a discussion for another time (and thread). ;)
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Know any other members of the Orders of High Sorcery who wear armor and carry a sword? Gilthanas doesn't count.
Cheers,
Cam
Was Gilthanas a wizard of High Sorcery? I heard somewhere that he never took the Test. I'd like some confirmation one way or another.
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
Was Gilthanas a wizard of High Sorcery? I heard somewhere that he never took the Test. I'd like some confirmation one way or another.
He wasn't during the War of the Lance, which is when he ran around with his chainmail and longsword. There's reason to believe he passed the Test later, although by the time the Fifth Age rolled around he had learned sorcery and it became a moot point.
I imagine he's probably still a sorcerer, given the way it was described in the Odyssey of Gilthanas (he seemed a lot more comfortable with it than with wizard magic, for which he had always been regarded as a dabbler).
The character sheet for Gilthanas in the later modules from the original 1st edition series throws this out the window, of course. Likewise, Serinda Elderwood, a Silvanesti elf who appears in DL12 Dragons of Faith, is a wizard/fighter without any problems. But, the Wizards of High Sorcery hadn't been fully developed by that stage and it wouldn't be until Dragonlance Adventures was released that the standard wizard restriction of staff, dagger and dart (originally enforced in AD&D because wizards weren't supposed to have time to train in anything better) was worked into an actual law enforced by the Gods of Magic (based on Raistlin's comments about Magius and the dagger).
Cheers,
Cam
I've even seen DM's who say that you can't multiclass into a sorceror because its something you should have at first level. I see gaining sorceror levels later in the career as "finding" the powers that have laid dorment in your mind for years.
I think the same would go for mystics and clerics. I could personally see believing and praying to a God, revering them, and therefore receiving spells. And believing in yourself and knowing there is power in yourself enough to grasp spells from your heart.
I just really never saw too much of a problem. Currently in d20 magic doesnt "stack" anyways, so its not like having sorceror and wizard spell slots stack or work together. About the only thing they can be tied together with is metamagic feats which can effect both. As i said at the top, I don't understand why some of your power can't come fromw ithin yourself and you study and learn other magic.
At the same time, Dragonlance has limitations. These are set to determine world flavor.
I have a few rules of thumb that I follow in regards to multiclassing in Dragonlance, which may be of benefit.
When you multiclass, make certain the class you're taking on matches the tenets of the deity.
So, for example, a cleric of Branchala can multiclass with bard, as Branchala is the primary god of bards. The chara
You cannot have more than one god, or divide your faith.
In those regards, you cannot multiclass between a Wizard of High Sorcery and any divine spellcasting class that follows a god. So, for example, you would not be able to gain power from both Branchala and Solinari, or from Gilean and Lunitari.
I think we can agree that clerics and mystics cannot multiclass, both from what is written in the DLCS and from the very idea that it would mean that your faith would be placed in two different directions. This applies also to druids, paladins, and rangers.
So how do we approach Wizards of High Sorcery multiclassing?
I'm going to present a few options.
OPTION #1: The WoHS don't care, so long as the wizard takes the Test, and places magic first. WoHS cannot multiclass into classes that follow deities beyond the moon gods.
The idea here is that the WoHS simply wish to make certain that the wizard uses his magic responsibly. Once he passes the Test, it doesn't really matter so long as the wizard continues to use magic responsibly.
OPTION #2: The WoHS should have the same multiclassing restrictions as a paladin or a monk. WoHS can only multiclass with other classes that allow the continued practice of High Sorcery (i.e. Solamnic Auxiliary Mage or War Mage).
The Wizards of High Sorcery are supposed to be fully dedicated to the magic. This dedication is similar to that presented for paladins or monks. It is a full dedication of one's self to the magic.
OPTION #3: The magic comes first. You can pursue other venues, so long as you keep magic first in your life.
By this train of thought, you can multiclass between WoHS and other classes, so long as your combined wizard/WoHS levels are greater than your other classes. So, a wizard 4/WoHS 4/fighter 7 is okay, since the wizard is an 8th level arcane spellcaster that gains his power from High Sorcery.
Okay, so now we approach the dreaded question...can a WoHS (or renegade mage) multiclass with ambient spellcasting classes (i.e. sorcerers, mystics, and bards).
I'll tackle mystics first, as that's easier. In my mind, a WoHS and a mystic cannot multiclass, as that is a division of faith. A wizard's faith is in the moon gods, as well as in magic. Using divine magic is, IMO, not in accordance with putting arcane magic first.
If a player wished to do a WoHS/mystic combo, I would recommend that the mystic take the magic domain (which is not normally allowed in DL) and that he keep his wizard/WoHS levels higher than his mystic levels.
So, what about WoHS and sorcerers multiclassing?
Here's an interesting thought from page 89 of the DLCS....
(last paragraph before High Sorcery section)
Perhaps former wizards will return to their familiar magic. Some may decide to continue following the more independent, free-form path of sorcery. And perhaps it may be possible to meld the two.
Wow. That's a pretty interesting statement. This one paragraph hints that High Sorcery and Wild Sorcery are not so incompatable after all.
Yet the DLCS and Age of Mortals both elude to the idea that High Sorcery and Wild Sorcery don't mix.
This raises some interesting points.
Do the WoHS care, so long as your wizard levels are higher than your sorcerer? You would think the Moon Gods would follow suit, as the magic of High Sorcery is first in the heart of the wizard. Even if he is studying Wild Sorcery, he's still studying arcane magic.
Yet wouldn't the Moon Gods find that one could achieve greater feats of magic if one wasn't divided between two forms of magic? Wouldn't they want you to be fully dedicated to High Sorcery, and to the Moon Gods themselves?
I think this last paragraph is the heart of the reason why Sov. Press' official stance is that you cannot multiclass between WoHS and sorcerer.
As for renegade wizard and sorcerer...maybe.
My friends, I don't think there is any definitive answer on this issue. This brings me to one other rule-of-thumb for running Dragonlance.
Do what feels right for your character, and your campaign.
There will never be a definitive answer on this issue, my friends. Expecting to find one will prove futile.
What you will find is Sov. Press' official opinion. You will also find several alternate views, each with a different take on magic in Dragonlance.
With all of this being said (and sorry for the long-winded post), I will leave you with advice that one may gain from a Citadel Mystic.
Follow your heart.
I know the book says you can't be a mystic/cleric. I still say you can revere a god and receive spells for that worshipping and also believe in yourself enough to make wonderous things happen when you cast a spell out of the "spark" within yourself. I don't know if i buy the "you can either believe in yourself or in a higher power". But in Dragonlance, I can accept that it is different I guess.
The only thing I see as weird is sorcerory is wild magic. It comes and goes in people and no one has control over it. I don't see how sorcerors couldn't pretty much multi class into anything since their spells are innate and come from within. They just develop the power to do things. They don't go searching for it or study for it. They just can. I personally could see a WoHS studying for years and achieving great levels and then realizing a little bit of wild magic has matured inside him. He can now cast, although low level, a little bit of magic. Or, a person who has wild sorcery in him, going around and trying to develop this innate magic and then deciding, hey maybe I'll study magic with wizards and see what I can learn.
I guess this still could happen and use the Soulforge as a way to trade in levels, but I don't see why a person couldn't do both. Although most PC's wouldn't do this probbably just becasue 3e mechanics don't make a PC very powerful by persuing two different arcane paths. But still, the option is there.
This is probably just one of those things where everyone who moves around Krynn has a different view of things
Originally posted by True_Blue
This is probably just one of those things where everyone who moves around Krynn has a different view of things
Yeah, it's a very interesting topic that produces endless amounts of debate. As Dragonhelm often says, the trick is to balance out the flavor and themes of the world (often in ways that limit character selection) with the more open and modular format of 3rd edition. Its important to note that the current version of the DMG does make pains to explain that the core rules are the baseline upon which all worlds are built, and that not every possible combination of races, classes, and even skills and feats are available from world to world. The Realms has undergone some drastic changes to accomodate most if not all of them, but it's WOTC's flagship setting and that's understandably the case.
The key to understanding the limitation between sorcerers and wizards, and clerics and mystics, is that the current point of view holds that ambient magic as used by sorcerers, bards, mystics (and assassins, one imagines) was made widely available by the breaking of the Graygem and the release of Chaos' energies. It's how it was made available to mortals the first time, in fact, as the Graygem danced all over the planet. It faded away over time before, but this time it's staying put.
Mortals can only access the "power of the heart" and the elemental power of creation because of Chaos' influence over the magic. The Gods of Magic (and indeed the gods in general) make magic available to mortals in its purified form, but not in a way that can just be intuitively accessed. Sorcery and mysticism don't require any faith at all, or any allegiance to a higher power, and in fact the only reason some mystics held true to their old ways was because for them, it was the connection they needed to access the ambient divine magic. Mysticism requires a sort of personal paradigm, a way of seeing things or reaching within to focus and draw on the magic. It's an emotional or passionate investment in *something*which is required. It could as easily be a deep and abiding belief in chickens.
The problem comes with the mixing of this Chaos-tainted ambient magic, which is as wild as it ever was, with the pure magic of the gods. Mortals aren't capable of using both types of the same kind of magic (arcane or divine). It throws off the focused and directed nature of the magic of the Gods, in other words - it'd be like trying to run a car on LPG and gasoline at the same time and through the same engine.
This does mean you can have access to an ambient form on one magic, and a focused form of another. Cleric/sorcerers are fine, for example, as are wizard/mystics. However, the patron deity commitment tends to rule out WoHS/mystics 99% of the time, and in such cases I would say it's simply a case of being far too committed to one's role as a wizard of the Orders to be able to focus inwardly for mysticism.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Know any other members of the Orders of High Sorcery who wear armor and carry a sword? Gilthanas doesn't count.
Cheers,
Cam
Sure, a whole bunch of PC's that I plan to make that belong to the Orders of High Sorcery. See, I have no problem with a taboo about using weapons, I have a problem with wizards immediately being declared renegades for using weapons. The punishment simply doesn't fit the crime, and isn't something you would consider a group of educated and rational people to follow.
Originally posted by ferratus
Sure, a whole bunch of PC's that I plan to make that belong to the Orders of High Sorcery. See, I have no problem with a taboo about using weapons, I have a problem with wizards immediately being declared renegades for using weapons. The punishment simply doesn't fit the crime, and isn't something you would consider a group of educated and rational people to follow.
If you are playing Post-WoS, you could always just say that Dalamar and Jenna chose to remove that ideal as it would alienate the wizards more, and they need all the men and women they can get. That's what I did.
Originally posted by ferratus
Sure, a whole bunch of PC's that I plan to make that belong to the Orders of High Sorcery. See, I have no problem with a taboo about using weapons, I have a problem with wizards immediately being declared renegades for using weapons. The punishment simply doesn't fit the crime, and isn't something you would consider a group of educated and rational people to follow.
Okay, so they give the wizard a warning. Then what? If it's a taboo, has it no teeth? There doesn't need to be an immediate declaration made, but if you have a wizard who deliberately sets out to use a sword and wear armor as his habitual mode of dress, the Orders aren't just going to say "tsk, how rude" and ignore him.
They're educated and rational about it. But if the wizard in question continues to fly in the face of the restriction, they'll be educated and rational about his punishment.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Okay, so they give the wizard a warning. Then what? If it's a taboo, has it no teeth? There doesn't need to be an immediate declaration made, but if you have a wizard who deliberately sets out to use a sword and wear armor as his habitual mode of dress, the Orders aren't just going to say "tsk, how rude" and ignore him.
Why not? There are countless taboos in our own society that do not get you executed or imprisoned. It does however, influence who and how many people want to associate with you. That is even something that can be represented in game terms by simply taking away the Tower Resources ability of the WoHS prestige class.
They're educated and rational about it. But if the wizard in question continues to fly in the face of the restriction, they'll be educated and rational about his punishment.
The problem is, what is there to punish? Sure they are breaking a tradition, but what is part of that tradition that makes him a grave threat to either the order or the magic itself, enough that he must be contained at all costs?
Originally posted by ferratus
The problem is, what is there to punish? Sure they are breaking a tradition, but what is part of that tradition that makes him a grave threat to either the order or the magic itself, enough that he must be contained at all costs?
Whatever it is, it's a strong enough edict that it took the death of Magius to spur the gods to allow wizards to carry a dagger for protection. The entire pantheon had made the agreement to forbid wizards from using the weapons of war - this imposition was in place from the point at which the gods of magic chose the three first mages. It's a strong enough edict that there is a significant and well-established historical keynote explaining how it is the dagger exists as a wizard's weapon and not swords, axes and longbows. If it was just a case of a social faux pas among the wizards, that would reduce the story of Magius to a melodramatic anecdote only seriously regarded by stuffed-shirt mages, which paints the majority of the Orders in a very bad light.
"I'm going to pick up this sword and use it," says Ariakas.
"Oh fine," say his Black Robe friends. "That whole Magius thing's just a myth we like to scare the newbies with. Chop away, sir!"
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Whatever it is, it's a strong enough edict that it took the death of Magius to spur the gods to allow wizards to carry a dagger for protection.
Or it could have simply been a nice way to commemorate a hero.
The entire pantheon had made the agreement to forbid wizards from using the weapons of war - this imposition was in place from the point at which the gods of magic chose the three first mages. It's a strong enough edict that there is a significant and well-established historical keynote explaining how it is the dagger exists as a wizard's weapon and not swords, axes and longbows.
Yeah, that's in the canon. Problem is, why do they care if a guy who can cast meteor swarm uses a sword? See, this is what happens when you take a rules mechanic (2e weapons restrictions) and make it more important than common sense. The story suffers.
If it was just a case of a social faux pas among the wizards, that would reduce the story of Magius to a melodramatic anecdote only seriously regarded by stuffed-shirt mages, which paints the majority of the Orders in a very bad light.
You said it, not me.
I don't think that's a problem though, since we've spent more time talking about it than any of the mages in any novel or game material have. The reason being that its not an issue worth killing a brother mage over. Until you give me a reason why it is, it remains a quaint tradition.
"I'm going to pick up this sword and use it," says Ariakas.
"Oh fine," say his Black Robe friends. "That whole Magius thing's just a myth we like to scare the newbies with. Chop away, sir!"
"I was born a warrior, and I can throw a spear clean through a horse, but I respect your strength that comes from magic. " says Ariakas.
"We would be honoured to have you among our ranks, for you posess a keen mind and a powerful soul to go along with your strong body." says his Black Robe friends.
"I will never be as great a wizard as I am a warrior however, so if I'm to join your ranks, I cannot lay down my sword and still maintain control over my growing army of evil which will assure our victory". says Ariakas.
"Well no," says his black robed friends "It would be rather idiotic to assume so".
First off, the only time you ever really have any information about Ariakas you learn that he is a black robe and not a renegade. From what we know of the "ancient laws" keeping wizards from wearing armor and using weapons...these have always been more tradition than actual law. Which would explain why some wizards will try to brand another "renegade" if he or she uses weapons or wears armor...but why the conclave did not...and why they took no action against Ariakas. He was never considered a renegade...just a VERY odd black robe wizard.
The second thing is the whole magic issue. To me the Thorn Knights magic was indeed stolen and it came from all three moons (this was only during the Summer of Chaos) which was why they were so much more powerful than the WoHS. But, generally speaking, renegades draw their power from the same magic that all other spellcasters do. The gods of magic do not actually control magic so much as shape it to further its use. That is why magic could not be used (by WoHS or renegades) during the 5th age. The gods of magic are responsible for shaping magic into a more structured form that can be used by anyone. As much as they would like to be able to keep some from using what they create...this just isn't possible according to the laws of the universe. They can take the chaotic magic and make it more structured and safe...and they can form an order that is the mortal "law" of magic...but they can't keep others from using it. This is a) why you can have renegades and b) why "high sorcery" vanishes even though the gods of magic don't actually create or control magic. It's like starting a fire with a magnifying glass...the sun is always there but if you take the glass away you can no longer use the sun's energy to start the fire...unless you find some other way.
Those are my thoughts on the nature of renegades, how the gods interact with magic, and why the Thorn Knights were far more powerful than the WoHS for a time...and why there seems to be little (if any) real difference between renegades and WoHS at this (or any time other than the Summer of Chaos) time.
*marks that one down for later*
I think what makes magic a bit difficult at times are the various inconsistencies that you can find in Dragonlance. For example, I think it's Brothers in Arms where they say that Nuitari takes the magic away from a Black Robe who acts against the tenets of the Orders of High Sorcery. Or how about Ariakas, who supposedly is a black robe, yet doesn't quite act like one?
There's countless other examples as well.
Point is, this muddies our view of how magic works. We know the basic rules, but more in-depth analysis really seems to muddy things up.
My thought is to look at everything through the basic POV. From there, take everything else with a grain of salt.
Okay, enough babbling for me.
If you say a wizard can't multiclass into cleric because of the conflictings gods, then how does Arakias still benefit from arcane magic. I understand he wouldn't be a cleric, but still. Obviously he venerated Takhisis above all other gods. If you go by him being a wizard/fighter (like in the novels), how does he still get arcane spells. Only way I can see...is he'd have to be a renegade. Which i don't care much for.
And *if* Nuitari can't just choose to cut off a wizard from the focused magic, what do wizards even need to venerate the gods for anyways? Why wouldn't all the wizards just be renegades and not have to worry about venerating the gods of magic at all. They would be able to use all the magic they want, without restrictions. I guess you can say "well the WoHS hunt them down", but i don't understand why more renegades wouldn't band together to at least try to get rid of the threat. After all, they don't need the gods of magic to cast spells. But...maybe its just not in their natures to band together. It'd be nice to see one or two societies of wizards show up that are underground and decide they don't need the gods of magic. Start making organizations to top the "power structure" or some such.
For years we have had the WoHS who venerate the gods of magic in the same manner as clerics, in fact in the tales of the lance sourcebook, it even says that clerics of the gods of magic (who no longer exist, the clerics I mean) must take a certain amount of levels as WoHS in order to become Messengers of Lunitari, Nuitari, or Solinari.
I have been saying for years that the WoHS are using divine magic from the gods of magic and that it is simply manifested in a different form. Just imagine, in the beginning you have just the gods having magic, the gods of magic give arcane magic to the mortals. At the same time the gods are granting spells to mortals but it is plainly obvious that these magic comes from the other gods. Now the mortals misuse the magic gifted from the gods of magic and almost destroy the world. The gods of magic take a step back and say whoa, maybe we made a mistake. So they take certain magic users away from the world, teach them new magic (which is actually the same magic as from the gods, I.E. divine magic, but they are told it is different). They now hunt down anyone who is using the old magic (arcane, wizard and sorceror both).
You could say that this is the greatest bluff since arcane magic was "created."
Now in DLCS the gods of magic do not have clerics because the WoHS fill this slot. Now if this theory of mine were true it would explain why WoHS cannot multiclass with cleric because they are clerics. This also explains why the gods of magic can "shut off" the flow of magic to their spellcasters. If they could do this to "renegades" who are using the same magic as the WoHS then the gods of magic should be able to shut off the magic to the renegades, but they can't because the WoHS must hunt the renegades down.
As far as sorcerors are concerned I would see no reason why a sorceror could not become a cleric as well. It does seem to go against the idea of a sorceror being a person who beleives in himself and is independant, you know kinda of like a mystic who multiclasses with cleric.
Originally posted by True_Blue
If you say that the gods of magic are like a magnifying glass that focus the magic so mortals can use it, why can't one of them choose not to focus it for a specific mortal? If a black robe venerates Nuitari, and he goes against what Nuitari would want, then why can't the god step in and not focus it for that mortal.
The gods of magic direct the magic back to Krynn in much the same way as a satellite bounces a signal back to Earth. Anyone with the right equipment can receive it (i.e. anyone who has trained in the art of wizardry can use it to cast spells). Those wizards who have chosen to align themselves with one of the three gods of magic after the Test gain an additional degree of focus which the deity can remove if that wizard turns from the tenets of the god or the Orders. In such an instance, the wizard goes back to having the same basic signal reception as any other wizard.
And *if* Nuitari can't just choose to cut off a wizard from the focused magic, what do wizards even need to venerate the gods for anyways? Why wouldn't all the wizards just be renegades and not have to worry about venerating the gods of magic at all. They would be able to use all the magic they want, without restrictions. I guess you can say "well the WoHS hunt them down", but i don't understand why more renegades wouldn't band together to at least try to get rid of the threat. After all, they don't need the gods of magic to cast spells. But...maybe its just not in their natures to band together. It'd be nice to see one or two societies of wizards show up that are underground and decide they don't need the gods of magic. Start making organizations to top the "power structure" or some such.
When a wizard gains additional power and has a deeper commitment to one of the gods of magic, the magic is said to feel like a living thing, resonating with his soul. It's this addictive quality which Palin misses and which is absent from wild magic. Unaligned wizard magic, as used by renegades or pre-Test dabblers, has the hint or promise of such a quality, but it remains out of the grasp of the wizard until he has promised himself to the magic.
There have been bands of renegades throughout Krynn's history, some of them proving a threat to the stability of the Orders. Galan Dracos, for instance, turned from the Orders and those Black Robes who followed him were also renegades. However, the gods of magic charged the Orders with rooting out and dealing with individuals such as this, rather than step in and do so directly. That was part of the arrangement they made with the wizards in the first place.
As for Ariakas, there are a number of possible explanations for him. One of them is that he was indeed still a Black Robe, with Nuitari as his patron deity, yet who followed Takhisis unquestionably like any other loyal Dragonarmy officer (note that this doesn't necessarily mean she's his patron in a "gives spells to him" sort of way, i.e. a cleric). Another is that he was a renegade, Nuitari didn't grant him additional moon magic benefits, he wore armor and carried a sword and the Orders were too scared of him (or didn't understand that he'd turned from Nuitari) to do anything about it. The third, and my favorite theory, is that he was Takhisis' prototype for the Gray Robes or Knights of the Thorn, and she directed the power of the moons to him, thus giving him great power. At the very end, she denied him, Raistlin dispelled his arcane protection, and Tanis was able to kill him.
Cheers,
Cam
I've seen examples of how the magic is addictive and I think it makes sense. I don't personally see how a WoHS is anymore addicted to the magic than a renegade. I've never really seen an example anywhere of anything saying that getting magic through the moon gods (WoHS) is anymore addictive and "more liked" than renegades or pre-test dabblers casting spells.
As for Arakias, personally I don't think there is any question as to Takhisis being his patron deity. She might not grant spells to him, but he is leader of her armies and a favored mortal. If this is the case, then he shouldn't be able to still feel the "connection" to Nuitari. The WoHS might not have done anything about him, but wouldn't Nutari shut off his connection to his WoHS benefits or whatever? And if Arakias' patron god is Takhisis, then he cannot venerate Nuitari to the degree that is required (just like if a person was a wizard/cleric and venerated another god).
I don't see Arakias as a prototype for the Knights of Takhisis because I don't think she got the idea for them until after the War of the Lance. Evil turning upon themselves caused Takhisis to reevaluate how she runs armies. Not a big fan of Takhisis focusing magic to the Knights of the Thorn either. If she can do it, what prevents the other gods (especially the evil ones) from just deciding..eh, I'll focus arcane spells to my own people too. Also, if wizards can use arcane magic anyways(renegades) without the moon gods, they don't need Takhisis to grant them anything. Personally, I think it just happened that there were a lot of Thorn Knights who were runaway black robes and just happened to me more powerful than a lot of the WoHS. They don't need some special reason why they were so powerfula nd kicked the WoHS butts. They just did...with a bunch of magical items and talent.
There were other black robes who fought for Takhsis's army also during the War of the Lance. There was a bunch of them actually. So I can't imagine them all being renegades, also it was never said they were. I guess Nuitari could have "loaned" them to Takhisis.
Originally posted by True_Blue
If the "signal" can pretty much be picked up from anyone, why do you even need to venerate the gods of magic? I guess it could just be a matter of choice, but I don't see why people would keep being a WoHS, which has restrictions on what you can and can't do, yet if your a renegade you pretty much can do whatever you want.
1. The WoHS are an established organization, while renegades are often individuals.
2. To gain a greater understanding of magic, one must also understand the gods of magic. Reverence to the gods of magic helps one to understand the magic.
As for Arakias, personally I don't think there is any question as to Takhisis being his patron deity. She might not grant spells to him, but he is leader of her armies and a favored mortal. If this is the case, then he shouldn't be able to still feel the "connection" to Nuitari. The WoHS might not have done anything about him, but wouldn't Nutari shut off his connection to his WoHS benefits or whatever? And if Arakias' patron god is Takhisis, then he cannot venerate Nuitari to the degree that is required (just like if a person was a wizard/cleric and venerated another god).
Very good points here, which tie into my other post on renegades.
I think Ariakas is out for one person – Ariakas. I think he follows the bare minimums of the tenets of the black robes. While he follows Takhisis, he does so both because Nuitari also does so, and most importantly for his own gain.
Note: I have not read Emperor of Ansalon, and it has been some years since I read Chronicles, so I may be a smidge off on this.
I don't see Arakias as a prototype for the Knights of Takhisis because I don't think she got the idea for them until after the War of the Lance. Evil turning upon themselves caused Takhisis to reevaluate how she runs armies. Not a big fan of Takhisis focusing magic to the Knights of the Thorn either. If she can do it, what prevents the other gods (especially the evil ones) from just deciding..eh, I'll focus arcane spells to my own people too.
Takhisis is violating the very rules by which the gods have to live by, namely that each god has their place in the universe. This is why Kiri-Jolith doesn’t take on the role of nature god as well, or why Chemosh doesn’t steal Morgion’s portfolio of disease and decay.
As for the Knights of the Thorn, I’m fond of the theory that Takhisis drew power from the three moon gods, then granted that power to the Grey Robes. This works somewhat with the Second Generation telling of how they get magic. Of course, the original Thorn Knights may have also been a group of renegades who have had a number of kender tales told about the origins of their magic.
Also, if wizards can use arcane magic anyways(renegades) without the moon gods, they don't need Takhisis to grant them anything. Personally, I think it just happened that there were a lot of Thorn Knights who were runaway black robes and just happened to me more powerful than a lot of the WoHS. They don't need some special reason why they were so powerfula nd kicked the WoHS butts. They just did...with a bunch of magical items and talent.
This could very well be. Perhaps there was an offer of greater power.
There were other black robes who fought for Takhsis's army also during the War of the Lance. There was a bunch of them actually. So I can't imagine them all being renegades, also it was never said they were. I guess Nuitari could have "loaned" them to Takhisis.
As Nuitari served Takhisis, so did his followers.
Also, I wanted to post a response I got from Margaret Weis to the question of whether or not Ariakas is a black robe or a renegade. Here’s what Margaret had to say…
Ariakas is a political animal, so I think he's probably still a black-robe, if only for "connections". He is also the type to keep on the good side of powerful forces, so it would make sense that he would keep on good terms with both Nuitari and Takhisis.
Note: I have not read Emperor of Ansalon, and it has been some years since I read Chronicles, so I may be a smidge off on this.
EoA essentially has him as a fighter/cleric/monk, and Chronicles doesn't give any insight on his personal view on things.
Originally posted by jonesy
EoA essentially has him as a fighter/cleric/monk, and Chronicles doesn't give any insight on his personal view on things.
I'm also told that there was a father/son thing in there too, where the father was a fighter/cleric, in order to help continuity between novels and gaming.
Brothers in Arms portrays him simply as a fighter.
*sigh*
You know, I don’t think this debate will be ended until War of the Lance comes out this next summer. Even then, I imagine that the debate will still go on. Plus, with the rule of thumb that you can’t be both a cleric and a WoHS, the fighter/wizard/WoHS/cleric option simply does not work. Perhaps if he were a renegade, that would, but I don’t think it to be likely.
You know, it’s too bad Wild Sorcery wasn’t around at the time. That may solve a lot.
*shrugs*
Originally posted by darthsylver
Hey True_Blue I know I am probably just a voice on the wind but if you look at my last post you will see a possible (and very likely in my opinion) for why WoHS choose to be WoHS and why they hunt renegades.
It's an intriguing idea, but it would be something you'd do for your own campaign. Officially, the Wizards of High Sorcery are not clerics. Their magic, while of a divine origin, isn't "divine magic".
We're going to start going around in circles here, soon enough. My suggestion to those who have the time to do it is to read back over this thread and others like it for the explanation of the difference between renegade or untested wizards, Wizards of High Sorcery, sorcerers, etc etc.
I'm about done with explanations, myself.
Cheers,
Cam
What I have a problem with is...if you go by the rules and a person can only have one patron deity, then Arakias can not have Takhisis as a patron deity *and* be a black robe who venerates Nuitari. Its been said you can't have two different patron deity's. Receiving divine spells from a deity is not the only way you can have a patron deity. Its just the most common occurance.
I guess you can say Arakias venerates Nuitari and through him, works in Takhisis's army. But he is the leader of her army and to me, maybe just to me, in the books its pretty clear that Arakias is a favored of Takhisis and that she is his patron deity.
I didn't see Takhisis as "denying him" and then Tanis/Raistlin beat him. I see it as takhisis gave him certain amount of power and if he can defend himself and win, then great. If he still gets beat, then thats what happens. Might makes right in her army.
Originally posted by True_Blue
What I have a problem with is...if you go by the rules and a person can only have one patron deity, then Arakias can not have Takhisis as a patron deity *and* be a black robe who venerates Nuitari. Its been said you can't have two different patron deity's. Receiving divine spells from a deity is not the only way you can have a patron deity. Its just the most common occurance.
In this case, it's what matters. Everyone in the Dragonarmy had Takhisis as their patron deity, more or less - even Raistlin refers to her in this sense ("My queen" etc). Takhisis had most of the Black Robes on her side during the War of the Lance, and they remained in the service of Nuitari.
From the way Margaret is describing it, I doubt Ariakas was as deeply devoted to Takhisis as he appeared to be. Rather, he was just extraordinarily charismatic, useful to the Dark Queen for his skills as a leader and ambitious character, and buying off as much as he could to various interested parties until he achieved the goals he sought.
He'd make a pretty lousy cleric, in other words.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I'm also told that there was a father/son thing in there too, where the father was a fighter/cleric, in order to help continuity between novels and gaming.
Oh I know that theory, but I think it just complicates things more.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
We're going to start going around in circles here, soon enough.
“Time, time, time again. Forward to beginning, and back to end.”
I’m afraid we’re probably already at that point, and have been for a while. I fear that we may not know the answer to some of these questions until Towers of High Sorcery comes out, and even at that…who knows?
It is an interesting discussion, but I don’t think these boards will ever reach a consensus.
Don't worry, I am done spouting off at the mouth. It is just that in 2e the gods of magic did have clerics and this was the only roadblock stopping my theory about the WoHS, now these clerics are gone and so is the roadblock.
I saw the e-mail that Dragonhelm posted in the "renegades" thread and it seems to settle things from a, more or less, official standpoint. But I've never liked the idea that magic was just another form of divine spellcasting. I like the idea that magic is something that most any mortal, with enough work and talent, can learn and that this is something that can not be taken from them because they don't follow this or that rule.
As for why the gods of magic can't "remove the magnifying glass" from one mortal...simply because of the laws of the universe set up by the high god. You can't take free will away from mortals. While most people think this is why the gods of magic don't take the power away from renegades...I like to think that this is why they CAN NOT take the power away from renegades. They have power over magic and they can reshape it to allow more powerful access to it (ie: wizardy instead of sorcerery) but they can't pick and choose. To use another metaphor...it's like turning on the lights in a room. Either you turn the lights on or you do not...you can't turn the lights on and keep said light from one (or a few) people. At least not without outside help. And this is what the orders of high sorcery are for. They are the mortal agents of the gods, doing what they can not.
I don't have anything against the "free will is why they don't take magic away" argument....in theory. But when you get to things like Thorn Knights who, at one time, threatened all of magic as well as most of the world (you can use Galan Dracos and his renegades in this example as well)...I just really think the gods of magic would strip them of their powers and end the argument right then and there...IF they were able.
As for the black robe who lost her powers in Soulforge...that's not what I got from that story at all. The woman was being burned alive and she cast a spell to try and defend herself...she failed her concentration check and the roleplaying (or storytelling) reason for this is that "the gods of magic turned away from her." I don't think her powers were taken...she just messed up a spell, nothing more, nothing less.
Anyway, I'm up for more thoughts on it and, if I missed anything, just let me know.
P.S- Thanks for the support Dragonhelm...I'm glad you liked the theory. And, I agree...we probably won't ever answer this question ourselves...but it's fun to try!
Originally posted by darthsylver
I was not trying to make the board go around in circles.
Darthsylver, the circular debate mention that Cam made (which I also commented on) was not aimed at you.
Cam, Ferratus (Terry), and I have been debating magic for a very long time now. I think we've all learned a lot, and have had more questions raised. I don't think we will ever reach a consensus. Thus is the balance maintained. ;)
Also, don't equate Dragonlance's high connection with the gods to mean that the WoHS are a clerical order of their own.
Don't worry, I am done spouting off at the mouth. It is just that in 2e the gods of magic did have clerics and this was the only roadblock stopping my theory about the WoHS, now these clerics are gone and so is the roadblock.
Not entirely gone. Both Cam and I have worked up a Moon Disciple prestige class for the Nexus, which basically fits this bill. The idea is that the Moon Disciple is an "arcane cleric", which is a bit of a different flavor.
We don't know if Towers of High Sorcery will address this sort of role or not.
And, nothing is stopping you from having clerics for the moon gods if you want to have them. I would advise that they multi-class with the wizard class if you do so, though.
Originally posted by vader42xx
P.S- Thanks for the support Dragonhelm...I'm glad you liked the theory. And, I agree...we probably won't ever answer this question ourselves...but it's fun to try!
Definitely! Although sometimes it gets frustrating. Still, I have had to question how I feel about the magic of wizards in Dragonlance, especially now that High Sorcery and Wild Sorcery co-exist.
On your light analogy, would you then say that Takhisis used a "prism" or "mirror" of sorts to bend the light to the Thorn Knights?
Thanks for your thoughts on this issue, Vader. They have been most helpful.
As for Takhisis stealing magic during the Summer of Chaos...I would say a mirror for sure. But not to "bend" it...to "reflect" it instead. The magic was taken from all three moons (which explains why there were so much more powerful when I, at one time, thought it was ALL renegades) as can be seen in the 2nd edition stats for the Knights of the Thorn in the back of the Second Generation book.
So, anyway, I'd say Takhisis was in a way...syphoning magic from the "pool" and giving a portion of each moon's power to her followers. This had the effect of making sure the Thorn Knights had an "even" or +1 or +2 spellcaster level at ALL times...though only during the Summer of Chaos for sure. lol
And, good debating with you Dragonhelm.
Originally posted by vader42xx
As for Takhisis stealing magic during the Summer of Chaos...I would say a mirror for sure. But not to "bend" it...to "reflect" it instead.
That's a better way of phrasing it, definitely.
The magic was taken from all three moons (which explains why there were so much more powerful when I, at one time, thought it was ALL renegades) as can be seen in the 2nd edition stats for the Knights of the Thorn in the back of the Second Generation book.
I wonder if Sov. Press will ever address this. If so, I imagine it will be a long time coming.
And, good debating with you Dragonhelm.
Always a pleasure. As long as I've debated magic, I find that I still come out of these debates with something new.
As for the Moon disciple class yeah it does have a kinda clerical feel to it, and I assume that you will be granting those domains listed in the class any though the DLCS says the gods of magic do not have domains. Oh yeah, if the gods of magic did have domains, don't you think they would all have the "magic domain," just a thought.
As for old Takky stealing magic, isn't she the mother of the god of dark magic. So would'nt stand that she would know of a way to steal the magic granted by the gods? I'm still not sure if I like the idea that the thorn knights got magic from all three moons.
Originally posted by darthsylver
As for the Moon disciple class yeah it does have a kinda clerical feel to it, and I assume that you will be granting those domains listed in the class any though the DLCS says the gods of magic do not have domains. Oh yeah, if the gods of magic did have domains, don't you think they would all have the "magic domain," just a thought.
The Magic domain is specifically designed for clerics of gods of magic, with the assumption that they may want access to some of the spells wizards and sorcerers are known to use without having to multiclass. It ends up being somewhat redundant to give wizards access to it, although there would probably be a case for it if you really wanted those domain spells numbered among your bonus spells per day.
Cheers,
Cam
Most of the time you have to consider realism and rules. On Krynn you have to consider rules, realism, and roleplaying...when talking about magic. That's because, on most game worlds, magic is simply a tool and there is almost no roleplaying side to it at all. Nobody really cares where it comes from, how it works, etc...so long as their favorite wizard can throw this fireball or that lightning bold...you're good to go.
But on Krynn, you have to consider all the story, plots, and roleplaying sides to magic. One of the many reasons this is my favorite setting. I think this is also where so many people get turned around...they start getting roleplaying, rules, and realism confused. Most especially roleplaying and rules...these two can be difficult to find the line with so to speak...especially when you're talking about half of your source material coming from books of fiction and half from books of rules.
Anyway, enough of that...I just wanted to chime in on the "magic as clerical powers." This is the biggest reason that I've always looked at Krynn's magic and gods of magic as I do. I do not like the idea that wizards on Krynn are just another type of cleric. In fact, I hate that idea. That has always been the difference between wizards and clerics....one has to be bound by the will of another and one works to make the world bend for him! I really enjoy the gods of magic in the Dragonlance setting but I like to look at it as you've read above...they help to make magic what it is...but they don't have total control over it. They can't simply take it from someone as another god might a divine spell. That's the whole difference between divine and arcane spells. So far as I'm concerned, WoHS are not the clerics of the gods of magic...they are just the people the gods of magic work through. These gods shape magic, make it more than it would be without them, but the magic is still there...ready to be used by all, no matter who it is refined. The only thing the gods can do is take away the power of the moons...THAT is what they give to WoHS.
As for Palin having his magic taken away in the WoS books I think that is because the gods of magic brought him back to life. At that point, they could pretty much take whatever they wanted to away from him....life, limb, property, and even magic. And even though his caster level is listed as 0 in the AoM I'd say that's to reflect his OLD caster lever....that his WoHS levels are of no use. That's not to say he couldn't make use of sorcery if he wanted to...or even to use magic as a renegade. MAGIC wasn't taken from him...just his WoHS levels. That's just my take on that though.
Anyway, this little post has turned into a huge book...as always. lol Sorry guys.
Now we do not have "official" 3E rules for Taladas, but the wizards on taladas must still align themselves to a moon, remember there is no organization of WoHS on Taladas. These wizards however are still affected by the Moon phases but only after reaching 4th level (remember ADD 2e, time of the dragon).
This is one of the big things that really gets me. During discussions people tend to forget that there are two continents on krynn (and soon to be three I hear) not to mention the underwater kingdoms we never hear of. When discussing things that affect the world, such as the state of magic, we need to remember the entire world. Which is hard I know, because not everyone has the taladas and otherworld references so they tend to get forgotten.
Now before DLCS 3.5 I was not willing to fully commit to the WoHS being clerics, but with the statement that the gods of magic are unable and simply do not grant "clerical" spells, and taking the organization of the WoHS as a whole, I am of the mind that WoHS (not wizards of krynn) are clerics of the gods of magic.
I kinda see the WoHS in the same manner as Wizards of the coast in regards to the CCG magic: the gathering. WoTC introduces new cards with each new expansion, soemone comes up with a way to use a certain or a few certain cards to extreme effect, and WoTC either restrict or outright ban the card from tournament (official rulings) but people playing by their own rules (unofficial or house rules) that do not use these rules.
Now I am not saying that this is all bad, just that these rulings level the playing field. Which is fair.
As for the wizards of Taladas...I don't recall them being affected by the moons at all (though I may have missed that to be sure...it's been a long time). Even if so, we know that not all wizards are affected by the moons already. So if the wizards of Taladas continue to be affected by the moons (in 3e) then they must ally themselves with the gods of magic in some way or another...even if they are not WoHS. I'd imagine, however, that you'll find that the wizards of Taladas are not affected by the moons at all in 3e...though this is just a guess.
In any case, I don't like the idea of WoHS being "another cleric." Wizards (of any kind) get what power they have through study and through working hard...in short, they have the magic because of themselves...not because of the gods. The WoHS choose to follow the gods, not because they can only get magic in this way (as clerics can only get divine spells in this way) but because they believe that is the right thing to do...that is the way magic should be treated. They don't really "worship" the gods like clerics...they follow the gods as "respected elders" and little more. VERY respected to be sure...but, still, it's pretty clear that's how WoHS feel about the gods. Just look at the difference in the way Crysania or Ellistan speaks about Paladine to the way any WoHS speaks about his or her god of choice. Not to mention actions, attitudes, etc.
I just don't see WoHS as clerics....I see them as wizards who agree that the gods of magic have the right attitude. That, for me, is the difference. Clerics follow their gods because they have faith...because they believe that the god always knows best even when the cleric himself doesn't understand. WoHS, on the other hand, follow the gods of magic because they agree with them...because they understand what the gods want magic to be (or at least think they do) and fully agree that this is the way the world should be. Clerics have faith and respect....WoHS have an understanding and an agreement.
As far as as the taladas wizards not be affected in 3E you are probably right in that they will not be affected, if there is even a book written about Taladas fo 3E.
As far as WoHS not being clerics that was fine for me as long as there was the possibility of clerics for the gods of magic, which there were in 2E, they even worked closely with the WoHS. By WoTC (and maybe that was a Sovereign Press thing) removing the option of a cleric of the gods of magic, the WoHS fill that slot exactly as any other clerical outfit does.
So why would a WoHS want to kill a renegade when the renegade prsents a new way to learn about magic. Yeah they are uncontrolled but not all renegades are all that powerful, they may become that way, but are not that way in the beginning.
These are a few reasons I see WoHS as clerics of the Gods of Magic in 3E:
1: They belong to an organization that tries to promote the beliefs of a god (magic)
2: They hunt down and kill all those who profess a different view from the gods on magic (just look at all the wars dealing with religion in human history)
3: The magic can be (although rarely happens) taken away from the WoHS by the gods (just as with clerics)
4: There are no official clerics for the Gods of Magic in 3E
5: When becoming a WoHS you must choose a god to follow (general rules and regulations from teh god)
6: The WoHS take no second-guessers (either commit fully or die)
7: The three differents orders do call a cease fire in holy places (towers of high sorcery), as well commit jointly to the defense of holy artifacts and places (the lost citadel)
8: The gods of magic do answer the calls of their followers (even if only on the rare occassion)
The moon gods deliberately removed themselves from the pantheon of Krynn in order to devote their divine power to the sustaining and support of arcane magic. They don't grant clerical spells, or spells of any kind, to any followers. Their faithful revere them but are not clerics - they can't turn undead, they can't heal, they don't proselytize to others, they don't officiate in communities. There are fraternal order trappings similar to those found in secret societies, brotherhoods, mystery cults, and Masonic lodges, complete with religious overtones. But the influence a moon god has over the wizards in the Orders is one of extended power, not a priest/deity connection.
Cheers,
Cam
As far as the Taladas wizards establishing a relationship with the gods of magic, I have not read anything other than they must choose a moon "not god" to align themselves with. Nothing about a relationship. If you have, please share, reference and page number please.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Cam, with the WoHS tha is your opinion and I have stated mine. I think we will both use our own versions when we DM DL. I just hope we can appreciate each other's views.
This is correct. Please append "...but you are free to do as you like in your own campaign, as I do in mine" to anything I say. For the most part, when I comment on this kind of thing I'm largely synthesizing the current approaches to the topic at hand and not necessarily going by what I would personally do in my own game.
Cheers,
Cam
As far as the as a Sorceror of High Sorcery I would say that if a sorceror becomes a WoHS (if this were possible, which we led to believe may be possible) then it would be a complete and utter reversal of their previous beliefs and actions, which becomng a WoHS should be for a sorceror.
But, as a side note, renegades are not affected by the moons of magic at all. Only the WoHS prestiege class...and WoHS in the books.
By quirks, i mena like maybe an item, but not as expensive as the WoHS would get; access to the library in the tower, basically to look up info he may need; (I had an idea, but it just left me).
And he would be an honorary WoHS that could called upon for help and could call upon the help of the Conclave if so needed.
Thats just my thought on the matter and probably what i will do in my campaign.
Originally posted by themind
With the matter of Sorcerors and the WoHS deal, I would say that Sorcerors would ahve to take the test too. But, except for becoming a WoHS, he could be granted maybe a few quirks for passing and wouldnt be considered a renegade.
Would you use the Changing Focus rules to have the sorcerer switch out his levels for wizard, or keep him a sorcerer? Because you know, the gods of magic aren't really all that keen on that Chaos-tainted magic.
Cheers,
Cam
The way i percieve of how the Gods of Magic look at Sorcery is that at this time, there is pratically nothign to do about Sorcerors and the Wild Magic until the ambient energy of the world dies down again. The only thing they can do is regulate it like with Wizards by making them take the Test or become renegades.
I see it like this. Most renegades don't want to be WoHS. Players on the other hand tend to see the test as a if I pass I get a really cool magic item, yes there is the inherent chance that the character might die but most PCs don't really think that the DM will actually let the character die in the test. Unless of course the DM has already done this. So if the character has to decide upon making a complete and utter change to the way the character is, then the test becomes that much more important, IMO.
Not all players of DL have the same devotion and history with the setting as we do, and so they sometimes think little of those things that have become such an important part of Krynn. Like the test of WoHS.
Wizards worship the gods of magic like Farmers worship Chiselev
Yes thanks to the Three's Bounty we have Magic. It doesn't mean we pray to get our magic. It means we study HARD, LONG, and frequently FRUSTRATING hours to get our magic.
Prayers might help but prayers usually only help Clerics who have to learn ALOT of prayers and rituals that might be better spent studying...yes...drumroll...magic.
Ariakas is a Black Robe with Takhasis as his patron deity.
There's no contradiction anymore than a greedy wizard might take Hiddukeul as his deity and be a black robe.
It isn't COMMON and Nuthari doesn't LIKE IT but that's the breaks.
In the Tales from the Cataclysm book (I think) it also showed Black Robes relationship to Takhasis and a similar one can be inferred for the other gods. Their parents are their boss...period.
Nuthari stands to benefit if Takhasis ever takes over the world so he supports this, he just can't stand the fact his mother is so GAWD D**** GREEDY that she keeps giving Renegades support who worship her alone.
Rengades get power the same way normal wizards do, the moons, but like farmers farming without Chiselev its mostly because that's the way magic works.
Nuthari can show up and punish them but its rarely worth the bother, he has better things to do
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Would you use the Changing Focus rules to have the sorcerer switch out his levels for wizard, or keep him a sorcerer? Because you know, the gods of magic aren't really all that keen on that Chaos-tainted magic.
Cheers,
Cam
What Chaos tainted magic? It is the same magic the gods scheme to unleash on Krynn with the Graygem. They made their bed now they must lay in it.
The gods gace magic to mortals through the graygem. The mortals used it and it was to powerful for them. So the gods taught a lesser magic and told them to prevent anybody from getting the more powerful magic.
Now one could argue that the people in those days simply did not have the mental capabilities needed to control the magic and the people today have grown, learned and evolved enough to be able to control the magic.
It is kinda of like give your kid a square block to play with. He pokes himself in the eye with it and gets hurts. So you take the square block away and give him a sphere block so that there are no 90 degree corners and cannot poke himself in the eye.
The square is more powerful because you can build upon where as the sphere is weaker because you cannot build upon it.
Now this is just a simplified way of looking at things, through my point of view.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
What Chaos tainted magic? It is the same magic the gods scheme to unleash on Krynn with the Graygem. They made their bed now they must lay in it.
The Gods of Magic had no idea it would be tainted with Chaos, or that the mortals who began to use it would endanger the world with it. Wild magic isn't created by them, it is the primal magic of the world suffused with the energies of Chaos.
Cheers,
Cam
Doesn't it follow then that the gods of magic needed to release the wild magic before they could focus it?
As well, they seemed content to allow sorcerers to use wild magic for over 2,000 years. How does that fit into everything?
Originally posted by Cam.
The Gods of Magic had no idea it would be tainted with Chaos, or that the mortals who began to use it would endanger the world with it. Wild magic isn't created by them, it is the primal magic of the world suffused with the energies of Chaos.
If anything the graygem is the essences of the "moons" suffused with chaotic magic.
From the DLA pg 86.
*Circa 3500 PC Greystone Created: Magic is unknown upon Krynn. Reorx, the god of the forge, creates the Greystone of Gargath. In it is the concentrated magical essences of the grey moon lunitari.
*Circa 3100 PC Greystone Released: The gnomes pull the Greygem from the skies, and it floats across the face of krynn, leaving disruption and chaos in its wake. Through the gem magic is brought to the world.
In the DLA it does not state when the WoHS were formed but in the ToTL pg. 5,
3350 PC it states that magic reentered the world when the greygem was released.
3100 PC The greygem turned some smiths into the Scions.
2645 PC the WoHS were formed and Wild magic declared outlawed by the WoHS.
So the gods of magic tolerated this "Chaos tainted" magic you speak of for at least 700 years. Plenty of time to realize "their" magic had been tainted. Yet they still did nothing about it.
This is the way I see the path of Arcane magic.
Magic has always been a part of the world. The greygem when released changed a small portion of the population so that they had a natural talent for sensing the magical essences of the world and gave them the capability to use the magic. The WoHS when created were taught how to tap into the magical essences of the world even though they could not sense the magic themselves. At the same time the Gods of magic put in place a sort of magical barrier that hides the magical essence of the world from those who have a natural talent for sensing these energies. When Takhisis moved the world she did not just move she changed some of the basic properties of the world. One thing was the removal of the magical shield, so that she could tap into the magic of the world as she knew she would be weakened by moving the world. It also caused a slight shift in the techniques use by WoHS to find the magic. With the return of the gods of magic they knew how the world had been shifted and adjusted the spells cast by WoHS to find the magic essence of the world. With sorcery the world in now so suffused with the chaotic energies of the god Chaos it is impossible for the Gods of Magic to restore the shield that they had once put in place to block those who naturally sense magical energy.
Whatcha think?
Originally posted by darthsylver
Cam - So what are you saying that there are three types of Arcane magic. Primal magic, Primal Magic tainted by Chaos, and Arcane Magic granted by the gods of the moons? No way man.
I think you misunderstand what Cam is trying to say. There are two types of arcane magic – High Sorcery (granted by the moon gods) and Primal/Wild Sorcery. The DLCS says that Primal Sorcery’s power is boosted by the power of Chaos, which is where the “Chaos taint” comes into play.
The timeline seems to have some sort of error or misunderstanding in them in regards to the creation of magic. I have a feeling there’s more to the story than what we know. I’ll try to present my own thoughts on this, which may or may not run contradictory to what is in the official timeline.
Arcane energies are used in the creation of the world. We know that primal sorcery is the magic of creation, and ties into this. This magic is infused into the world of Krynn, and usable at this time, primarily through the influence of Chaos.
Chaos is captured in the Greygem. As the Greygem causes havoc throughout the Age of Dreams, so too does it boost ambient magic. As the power of primal/wild sorcery is boosted by Chaos, so too is it tainted with the power of chaos. This wild magic causes great harm.
What the intentions of the gods of magic are at the time of creation is uncertain, although they definitely had an interest in arcane magic. When they saw that arcane magic was causing harm, they decided to intervene to create order. And so it was that the Orders of High Sorcery were created and the gods of magic would remove themselves from the heavens (becoming moons), so that arcane magic would be used in a responsible manner.
This ties into the appendix of Vanished Moon, in that Wild Sorcery would then be focused back onto the world of Krynn without the taint of Chaos.
Skip ahead, skip ahead…
After the Chaos War and the loss of godly magic, Chaos’ power infuses the world, thereby amplifying Wild Sorcery and Mysticism to levels that can be used by mortals. This time, though, the power of Chaos isn’t causing widespread damage, as in the Age of Dreams. Perhaps this is because Chaos’ will isn’t behind his power.
After the War of Souls, godly magic returns. The new Orders of High Sorcery find themselves facing the very thing they were created to bring order to – wild magic. Yet wild magic isn’t causing widespread havoc, and is being used (thus far) responsibly.
How will the Wizards of High Sorcery deal with the sorcerers? Only time will tell.
Anyway, that’s my view on arcane magic in Krynn. Not exactly canon, but it makes sense to me and works for my purposes.
And I really hate to harp about this (actually no I don't) but if something is "granted" from the gods I would say that it is divine. Instead of saying "granted" I would use the term taught.
I just had another thought (not that that is a rare occasion).
If the greygem is suffused with energy from lunitari and this is where sorcery (& mysticism) comes from, and Arcane magic (used by WoHS) comes from radiation, energy, essences, etc... put off by the moons of magic (kinda of like the tides in the ocean are affected by our moon) rather than granted by the gods of magic then this better explains the differences between the two.
Here you have two different types of magic, neither granted by the gods. One taught by the scions (orginially) and the other taught by the gods then this explains why WoHS magic left during the fifth age rather than because of the absence of the gods.
You know, the master of the tower of wayreth might even be the last Scion? (And again the gods are hiding Sorcery from the populace.)
And I really hate to harp about this (actually no I don't) but if something is "granted" from the gods I would say that it is divine. Instead of saying "granted" I would use the term taught.
I just had another thought (not that that is a rare occasion).
If the greygem is suffused with energy from lunitari and this is where sorcery (& mysticism) comes from, and Arcane magic (used by WoHS) comes from radiation, energy, essences, etc... put off by the moons of magic (kinda of like the tides in the ocean are affected by our moon) rather than granted by the gods of magic then this better explains the differences between the two.
Here you have two different types of magic, neither granted by the gods. One taught by the scions (orginially) and the other taught by the gods then this explains why WoHS magic left during the fifth age rather than because of the absence of the gods.
You know, the master of the tower of wayreth might even be the last Scion? (And again the gods are hiding Sorcery from the populace.)
You know what if the Foundation Stones for all the towers were in actuality the Scions (taking the shape of a stone) submitting to the will of the Gods of magic?
There were what 13 scions. 5 for the Towers, 1 for the lost citadel, 1 is Chisel Loremaster, and that would leave 6? Where are they? Hmmm... I feel a campaign being formed....
We were just more responsible about it than say some other realms that we will leave "fogotten."
Originally posted by darthsylver
Dragonhelm - So what you are saying is that primal sorcery is not accessible without the chaotic "taint" created by the greygem or chaos?
Correct. It’s like a car and its battery. Your car isn’t going to move without enough juice from the battery.
And I really hate to harp about this (actually no I don't) but if something is "granted" from the gods I would say that it is divine. Instead of saying "granted" I would use the term taught.
That’s a matter of semantics. Either way, you don’t have High Sorcery without the gods of magic.
If the greygem is suffused with energy from lunitari and this is where sorcery (& mysticism) comes from, and Arcane magic (used by WoHS) comes from radiation, energy, essences, etc... put off by the moons of magic (kinda of like the tides in the ocean are affected by our moon) rather than granted by the gods of magic then this better explains the differences between the two.
I’m not sure I follow.
You are right in that the moons of magic affect the magic of wizards like they affect the tides. The moons are merely the physical manifestations of the gods of magic. In a way, they are one and the same.
Here you have two different types of magic, neither granted by the gods. One taught by the scions (orginially) and the other taught by the gods then this explains why WoHS magic left during the fifth age rather than because of the absence of the gods.
Thing is, the teaching is still there, just not the power source. The power of High Sorcery is connected to the gods of magic, although it is not divine in nature.
This is something that is hard for people to understand, as one tends to equate godly power with divine magic. The difference, though, is the connection.
Clerics have a direct connection to their deity through their faith. The god rewards the devotion with divine magic.
Wizards, on the other hand, have a connection to the magic. While the moon gods do present this in a form that is more ordered and structured, they aren’t granting it directly to their followers. They would rather that a wizard discover the mysteries of High Sorcery on his own.
You know, the master of the tower of wayreth might even be the last Scion? (And again the gods are hiding Sorcery from the populace.)
I believe the Master of the Tower is the physical manifestation of the magic of the Tower of Wayreth, IIRC.
quote: from Darthsylver
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here you have two different types of magic, neither granted by the gods. One taught by the scions (orginially) and the other taught by the gods then this explains why WoHS magic left during the fifth age rather than because of the absence of the gods.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: dragonhelm
Thing is, the teaching is still there, just not the power source. The power of High Sorcery is connected to the gods of magic, although it is not divine in nature.
Precisely -
power for sorcery comes from the greygem and the release of Chaos, which can be taught by the Scions, other sorcerors or learned naturally.
power for arcane come from the moons of magic (rather than directly from the gods), which can be taught by the gods of magic, wizards or learned on one's own.
This would easily explain why the WoHS lost their power when the moons disappeared.
This would also allow us to get away from the "WoHS Arcane magic is granted, gifted, gained ... from the Gods of Magic." The teaching is still there but the power source (the moons) is gone.
You have a perfectly good car, but is no battery.
This happens when you become an old man! Er... ;)
Originally posted by darthsylver
How old are you? I going to be 30 in Feb.
I'm 31, actually.
I think Cam's the only one older than me on the Whitestone Council. This is, of course, why we recruited him. ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I'm 31, actually.
I think Cam's the only one older than me on the Whitestone Council. This is, of course, why we recruited him. ;)
Nope, Kipper's a tad older than me.
By the way, it wuld be a good idea to ignore DLA and TotL at this point when talking about the history of the Greygem. Both products predate Dragons of a Summer Flame, the 5th Age materials, and the War of Souls trilogy. Lunitari no longer provides the energy to power the Greygem, primal magic's history is altered, the scions are no longer specifically golden dwarves, and so forth.
The DLCS is your best guide from this point, and the upcoming Towers of High Sorcery will address much of this in greater detail and clarity. Until then, don't rely on pre-DoSF materials for your arguments about the origins of magic.
Cheers,
Cam
So if I enjoy and play DL because of what has been written in the past, an dI am now to ignore it, why should I play DL to begin with.
What I wish people would quit doing is rewriting the "official" sources to accomidate new products rather than digging a little further and trying to work with what has been written in the past.
Otherwise what is the point of having a history for a setting when you are supposed to throw out certain portions because tthey are no longer the history of the world.
Originally posted by darthsylver
So you are asking me to ignore what has been written in the past to accomidate a new product?
Yes.
This is a constant in any setting with growth - older materials are outdated and phased out by new materials, and new materials incorporate the older materials and any changes which are introduced to account for changes in the game system, the novels, reflections on continuity and game balance, and so forth.
DL1 Dragons of Despair had the wrong hit points for Sturm and Caramon (they were each about 15 hit points under what they were supposed to be). DL5 Dragons of Mystery fixed this. Dragonlance Adventures added a Wizard of High Sorcery class, a Knight of Solamnia class, included the changes to AD&D that Unearthed Arcana had brought in, and added the rules for moon magic and tinker gnomes. DLA says that all gnomes are tinkers, and all tinkers are gnomes, yet the DL modules have a gnome fighter named Theodenes who isn't a tinker. And Derek Crownguard doesn't have the Knight of Solamnia class in the modules, since it hadn't been created yet (and indeed, was originally a cavalier subclass in DLA).
Changes and revisions and upgrades and retroactive fixes happen throughout the history of Dragonlance. The DLCs is the most up to date, with the other products going into more detail or expanding that information, and DLA and TotL are out of date. That's the way it works. It doesn't mean you can't still use those products for AD&D games or for your own campaign, but the current official status of the Dragonlance campaign is D&D3.5 with the DLCS, Age of Mortals, etc.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Nope, Kipper's a tad older than me.
I was wondering about that. I knew there was a reason we recruited Kipper... ;)
Originally posted by darthsylver
So you are asking me to ignore what has been written in the past to accomidate a new product?
The DLCS already draws from all prior sources, taking into account the various discrepancies and weaving them together for a more cohesive whole.
So if I enjoy and play DL because of what has been written in the past, an dI am now to ignore it, why should I play DL to begin with.
What I wish people would quit doing is rewriting the "official" sources to accomidate new products rather than digging a little further and trying to work with what has been written in the past.
Otherwise what is the point of having a history for a setting when you are supposed to throw out certain portions because tthey are no longer the history of the world.
It's true that Dragonlance is full of retcons. The timeline is one of the big ones. The Ages in DLA differs from that in TotL, which is then brought together under SAGA. The DLCS further clarifies this, and expands on it.
It is unfortunate that there hasn't been better consistency. Yet in 20 years and with all the hands touching it that have, it's inevitable.
If a prior product is what brought you into DL, that's cool. If it conflicts with the DLCS, then so what? Did you enjoy it?
Hell, even as much as I like the current timeline, there's a part of me that yearns for the timeline in DLA, when the War of the Lance was the dawning of a new age - an Age of Dragons!
As you go into DL, realize that the DLCS is the most current source and most accurate in regards to how we view the world today.
However, don't be afraid to enjoy the parts of DL that you enjoy, even if they conflict. That doesn't matter so much as whether you enjoy it or not.
As far as changing rules and classess to explain new things, that's fine but don't change the history.
This is exactly the reason why DL has such inconsitencies.
It just seems to me that people take the easy road when introducing new stuff rather than looking to work with has been written.
It is kinda like saying I want to introduce a new class. I am not going to look into the past and see if there is a way to introduce it, I am just going to rewrite history.
Originally posted by darthsylver
I'm sorry. I am just sick and tired of people rewritting "history" to accomadate new stuff rather than working with what has already been written.
As far as changing rules and classess to explain new things, that's fine but don't change the history.
This is exactly the reason why DL has such inconsitencies.
It just seems to me that people take the easy road when introducing new stuff rather than looking to work with has been written.
It is kinda like saying I want to introduce a new class. I am not going to look into the past and see if there is a way to introduce it, I am just going to rewrite history.
I understand where you’re coming from. There are many DL fans who feel the same as you.
One thing I was always a bit impressed with is how Wild Sorcery was developed. TSR management wanted magic to be in the post-Chaos War DL setting. So, where do we find magic in a setting that is now without magic? The 5th Age design team looked to Krynn’s history and redefine wild magic to be Wild Sorcery.
In that case, history wasn’t changed so much as it was redefined.
However as a major Gods of Magic fan I'd like to give my personal interpretation here of what exactly they do one more time as a point.
The best way to look at the Gods of Magic are the equivalent of Water Purification plants meet College Professors.
Arcane magic has alot of benefits in the fact it is codified and set down in a very specific fashion
Arcane magic can be used to create magic devices
Arcane magic can be enhanced by the power of the Moons
Etc etc etc
Sorcery for all of its versality lacks the refined power of it. It's like a natural spring to the confirmed power of the "industrialized" magic.
The Other Gods provide Clerics with extensions of their power. The Gods of magic teach mortals how to harness the power of the gods for their own use and all they ask is for worship
Now whose tricking who?