Knight Base Class Version 0.4 - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Knight Base Class Version 0.4

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Nov 22, 2003 22:25:47 Critique at your pleasure. And, before anyone starts with it, this is NOT a Knight of Solamnia. It's more of a non-spellcasting paladin.

Version .4

Alignment: Any lawful

Hit Die: d10

Class Skills:
Climb(Str), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Gather Information(Cha), Handle Animal(Cha), Heal(Wis), Intimidate(Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge(Int)(Nobility and Royalty), Knowledge(Religion), Perform(Cha), Ride(Dex), Sense Motive(Wis), Survival(Wis), Swim(Str)

Skill points at first level: (2+Int modifier) x 4

Skill points each additional level: 2+Int modifier

The Knight:
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Weapon Mastery, My Father's Sword
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Riding Aptitude
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 My Father's Sword
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Weapon Mastery
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat
6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 My Father's Sword, Riding Aptitude
7 +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Pure Heart +2
8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Weapon Mastery
9 +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 My Father's Sword
10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Riding Aptitude, Bonus Feat
11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Pure Heart +4
12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Weapon Mastery, My Father's Sword
13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Pure Heart +6
14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Riding Aptitude
15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 My Father's Sword, Bonus Feat
16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Weapon Mastery
17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Pure Heart +8
18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 My Father's Sword, Riding Aptitude
19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Pure Heart Immunity
20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Weapon Mastery, Bonus Feat

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: All simple and martial weapons, all armor, and shields(but not tower shields)

Code of Chivalry: A knight must obey the code of chivalry laid down by culture or Knighthood.

Weapon Mastery (Ex): At creation, a knight chooses a single weapon(or, two weapon combination. For instance, a short sword and dagger) that they will master. This is usualy some kind of sword, although it may be anything. A good example would be of Derek Crownguard, who specialized in the halberd, or Aran Tallbow, who specialized in the longbow. Essentially, at levels 1, 4, and every four levels after that, the knight gets to select a feat from the Weapon Mastery list. These must all be spent on the chosen weapon. If the knight chooses a two weapon combo, then he may get some Weapon Mastery feats twice. These do not stack. One is applied to one weapon, and the second to another. For instance, in the example given for a short sword and a dagger, the knight may choose Weapon Focus(Short sword) and Weapon Focus(Dagger). But, these feats only apply when both of the weapons are used at the same time. You do not need to fill any prerequisites for any of these feats. The Weapon Mastery feats are:
Exotic Weapon Proficiency(This must be selected first, if the knight is not already proficent in the weapon)
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization
Improved Critical
Rapid Reload(if choosing a crossbow)
Weapon Finesse(If this feat is applicable to the chosen weapon)
Weapon Penetration*

Note: These feats must be selected in this order, but Weapon Finesse does not have to be taken if the knight desires not to. The knight also need not take a Weapon Mastery feat if he already has that feat. For example, if Derek Crownguard already had Weapon Specialization(Halberd), then he will get Greater Weapon Focus(Halberd), the next level or Weapon Mastery.

My Father's Sword (Ex): A knight inherits his weapon(not necessarily a sword) from his ancestors(not necessarily his father). So, at first level of My Father's Sword, the knight's weapon functions as a masterwork weapon for him alone. It also gains a +1 enhancement bonus for each level of My Father's Sword. This need not be an actual +1 enhancement, but may be something the equivalent of a +1 enhancement. A knight may also choose not to unlock a special ability inside his weapon for a time, to "save" enhancements to be made later(so, if a special weapon ability is the equivalent of 3 enhancements, then they can choose not to take 3 levels of My Father's Sword and get that ability later). If the knight inherits a weapon that is already masterwork or enchanted, then each level adds to it another +1 enhancement(including first level).

Riding Aptitude (Ex): Similar to Weapon Mastery. At each level of Riding Aptitude, the Knight gets a mounted combat feat. These must be taken in order, but the knight need not fill any prerequisites. If the knight already has a Riding Aptitude feat, he need not take it again. For example, if Derek Crownguard chose Mounted Combat as one of his starting feats, then his first Riding Aptitude would by Ride-By Attack. This is the only way that Trememndous Charge and Born in the Saddle can be taken. The Riding Aptitude Feats are:
Mounted Combat
Ride-By Attack
Trample
Spirited Charge
Mounted Archery
Tremendous Charge(that's the name of the new feat in the DLCS that let's you use your mount's Strength, right?)
Born in the Saddle**

Bonus Feats: At 5th level and every five levels afterword, a knight gains a bonus feat. This must be drawn off of this list:

Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Far Shot, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Leadership, Manyshot, Negotiator, Persuasive, Point-Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, Run, Self-Sufficient, Shot on the Run, Skill Focus, Toughness, Tower Shield Proficiency, Trample, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Whirlwind Attack.

Pure Heart (Su): At 7th level, a knight gets a +2 morale bonus to all Will saves against fear effects. This increases to +4 at level 11, +6 at level 13, +8 at level 17, and full immunity at level 19.

Once a person has taken a level in Knight, they may not raise a level in any class other than Fighter, Cleric, Paladin, or Noble(note: a Paladin may also take levels in Knight).

Note for Kender Knights: A Kender Knight does not need to be lawful, but cannot be chaotic.
They may also trade in the Pure Heart ability for additional Bonus Feats. This also applies to Kender Paladins, except they cannot replace Aura of Courage.

*Weapon Penetration: This is an ability that only a knight may get. A Knight qualifies for Weapon Penetration when he has taken all the other Weapon Masteries that can be taken. A knight chooses one kind of damage resistance, and from then on, his weapon functions as a that kind of weapon for purposes of damage resistance. A knight can not choose DR -/magic, but can choose such things as -/lawful.

**Born in the Saddle: This is an ability that only a knight may get. A Knight qualifies for Born in the Saddle when he has taken all the other Riding Aptitudes that can be taken. The knight recieves a +2 bonus to all Ride checks and attack and damage rolls while mounted. This can be taken more than once; its effects stack.

Ex-Knights:
Any Knight that breaks his Code of Chivalry becomes an Ex-Knight. Ex-Knights cannot gain any more class levels of Knight, and they lose My Father's Sword and Pure Heart.

Equipment: The standard equipment for a human knight is full-plate, a longsword, a heavy wooden shield, a lance, and a heavy war horse. Many humans use bastard swords, greatswords, and maces, also. All elves, with the exception of Dimernesti and Dargonesti commonly have the same gear, except for a light war horse, and possibly half-plate down to chainmail. Both kinds of Sea Elves ride aquatic creatures, such as dolphins, and all their equipment would likely be made out of coral(same statistics as normal gear of its kind, but with a lower Hardness). Ogre knights would ride anything that would carry their bulk, and would be more inclined toward clubs and maces then swords, as well as possibly lighter armor. Minotaur knights would usually use either a bastard sword, greatsword, or a greataxe(or a minotaur racial weapon), and maybe lighter armor. Dwarven knights would be more inclined toward axes and warhammers, and would probably ride a light warhorse(Flint's one of the only dwarves I've known of that's allergic to horses, so don't even think of mentioning it!). Gully dwarven knights would be similar, but would me more likely to ride a goat then a warpony(hmm...maybe a goat with the warbeast template...), also with lighter armor. Gnomish knights would either be about the same as dwarven ones(except riding warponies or riding dogs), invent some sort of robot-armor(like Sir Grumsh, I think it was, from Conundrum) or at least prosthetic limbs, and maybe even invent a robotic steed...Kender knights would probably not wear much heavier armor then chainmail, would use a hoopak instead of a shortsword or a lance, and would ride...anything that would carry them. I would have posted a list, but it includes most of the MM1&2, from heavy war horses to rhinoceri to gold dragons to black dragons to blink dogs to worgs...of course, many kender knights are suddenly deprived of life when they try to saddle up a shadow mastif. Centaur knights would probably have the same equipment as a human, except no steed, and maybe not very heavy armor. Baaz and Kapak draconian knights would most likely have the same equipment as humans(maybe not plate armor, though, because it may get in the way of their wings). Irda knights would usually use a bludgeoning weapon, and possibly lighter armor. Half-elves would either use human equipment or elven equipment, it depends on their culture. Half-ogres also would either use human equipment, or ogre, depending on culture.
#2
zombiegleemax
Nov 30, 2003 21:45:54 Look, guys, I need some input on this. I've worked really hard on it, and it's important to me. I've been through a few things recently, and I just ask that somebody give some constructive criticism to my class. I know that it's really not important, but right now, it feels like it is.
#3
cam_banks
Nov 30, 2003 22:35:49 Jacen, this version of your knight class seems to be very focused on feat selection without a distinct enough set of abilities. It seems as if you're really just creating a mounted weapon specialist, with the ability to access a laundry list of feats. Abilities such as My Father's Sword and Pure Heart seem secondary to this, which is a shame since they're the meat of the character concept.

Consider that multiclassing as a fighter is a much better way for this character to get the feats he needs. What does this class offer independent of multiclassing which provides a distinction? The knight gains a number of social class skills, useful for any knightly character, but beyond that it would almost be to the detriment of the character not to take levels in other classes. A fighter/noble provides a much more robust character, in fact, than a straight knight.

Also, I am wary of the multiple weapon combos. Two-Weapon Fighting isn't mentioned in the feat progression, yet a knight who chooses sword and dagger (and only gains the feat benefits when using them) should probably have that feat in order to succeed at the style.

At the end of the day, it's still clear to me why knights are generally reserved as prestige classes (including the cavalier PrC, in the Complete Warrior). Historically, knights were the elite warriors, those who occupied a niche role above the common foot soldier or cavalryman. Knighthood was something to aspire to. I would consider the merits of embodying the classic chivalric ideals into a knight base class, leaving the bonus feats to fighters and providing a suitable base for knightly prestige classes to fill in the blanks.

Cheers,
Cam
#4
zombiegleemax
Dec 01, 2003 10:27:14 Also, just looking at it immediately, you're giving 27 abilities away, plus all the level up feats (1, 3, 6 etc), which is another 7. In 20 levels, the fighter gets 19 feats, so it would strike me that you're giving far too much away with a core class, and no real drawbacks. Spells just aren't a vital part of paladins. A paladin gets a sword that gets better with use (or at least, the version I use does. The Monte Cook Book of Hallowed Might, I think), a monk gets better hands. This guy gets that, plus all the riding and fighting abilities he could possibly want from fighter. I'd say it was overpowered.

It's also possibly also unnecessary, since if you want an elite knight, you give them a PrC. If you want a knight in training, you start them off as fighter or paladin.

If you're still keen on making this class work, tell us why they have perform, and perhaps let them lose some abilities if they break their code of conduct, as a paladin or Solamnic Knight would.
#5
zombiegleemax
Dec 06, 2003 22:58:40
Originally posted by pddisc
Also, just looking at it immediately, you're giving 27 abilities away, plus all the level up feats (1, 3, 6 etc), which is another 7. In 20 levels, the fighter gets 19 feats, so it would strike me that you're giving far too much away with a core class, and no real drawbacks. Spells just aren't a vital part of paladins. A paladin gets a sword that gets better with use (or at least, the version I use does. The Monte Cook Book of Hallowed Might, I think), a monk gets better hands. This guy gets that, plus all the riding and fighting abilities he could possibly want from fighter. I'd say it was overpowered.

It's also possibly also unnecessary, since if you want an elite knight, you give them a PrC. If you want a knight in training, you start them off as fighter or paladin.

If you're still keen on making this class work, tell us why they have perform, and perhaps let them lose some abilities if they break their code of conduct, as a paladin or Solamnic Knight would.

Thank you.

Perform is a class skill that I thought needed in their after reading the book Parzival(at least I think that it was the book I'm thinking of), which is about one of king Arthur's knights. In that book, their are tons of knights that sing, dance, tell stories, write poems, etc. It was even written as an epic popem by a real life knight. I'm not married to the idea of Perform as a class skill, but I like it in there. It makes me think that it's not *ENTIRELY* combat-based.

Also, ther *DO* lose some abilities if they break their code of conduct(I'm changing it to that from code of chivalry, because I've not heard the word chivalry used once in DL).

Okay, my aim with this class was this: a non-spellcasting master of a single weapon. I only added all the mounted things because so many people here wanted them. I've never seen DL knights as quite as such. I mean, they are mounted warriors, but not quite as such as real knights.

I based a lot of their abilities on Sturm Brightblade, Derek Crownguard, and Aaron Tallbow, the three knights that I know the most about. All three used fairly powerful magic weapons(bastard sword, halberd, and longbow respectively), and they inherited their weapons from their family. Well, I didn't want any characters having +5 or so weapons at level 1 if they chose to have inherited it from their family, hence My Father's Sword(also based on Ancestral Daisho from the Samurai class. I was thinking o fhaving this ability function the exact same way, but I didn't). That way, when they got a +5 weapon, their character would be balanced for using +5 weapons. Plus, since that is the only weapon they ever use(even befor Sturm got the Brightblade, he always used a bastard sword), I wanted to make them good at it. Pure Heart I got from Mongoose's Power Classes: Knight. I thought it sounded like a good thing to have.

Hey, should I just quit this and use the one on the Nexus that Cam(I think it was) made?

EDIT: No, wait, it was Trampas.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Nov 22, 2003 22:25:47	Critique at your pleasure. And, before anyone starts with it, this is NOT a Knight of Solamnia. It's more of a non-spellcasting paladin. Version .4 Alignment: Any lawful Hit Die: d10 Class Skills: Climb(Str), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Gather Information(Cha), Handle Animal(Cha), Heal(Wis), Intimidate(Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge(Int)(Nobility and Royalty), Knowledge(Religion), Perform(Cha), Ride(Dex), Sense Motive(Wis), Survival(Wis), Swim(Str) Skill points at first level: (2+Int modifier) x 4 Skill points each additional level: 2+Int modifier The Knight: Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Weapon Mastery, My Father's Sword 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Riding Aptitude 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 My Father's Sword 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Weapon Mastery 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat 6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 My Father's Sword, Riding Aptitude 7 +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Pure Heart +2 8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Weapon Mastery 9 +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 My Father's Sword 10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Riding Aptitude, Bonus Feat 11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Pure Heart +4 12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Weapon Mastery, My Father's Sword 13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Pure Heart +6 14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Riding Aptitude 15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 My Father's Sword, Bonus Feat 16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Weapon Mastery 17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Pure Heart +8 18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 My Father's Sword, Riding Aptitude 19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Pure Heart Immunity 20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Weapon Mastery, Bonus Feat Class Features: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: All simple and martial weapons, all armor, and shields(but not tower shields) Code of Chivalry: A knight must obey the code of chivalry laid down by culture or Knighthood. Weapon Mastery (Ex): At creation, a knight chooses a single weapon(or, two weapon combination. For instance, a short sword and dagger) that they will master. This is usualy some kind of sword, although it may be anything. A good example would be of Derek Crownguard, who specialized in the halberd, or Aran Tallbow, who specialized in the longbow. Essentially, at levels 1, 4, and every four levels after that, the knight gets to select a feat from the Weapon Mastery list. These must all be spent on the chosen weapon. If the knight chooses a two weapon combo, then he may get some Weapon Mastery feats twice. These do not stack. One is applied to one weapon, and the second to another. For instance, in the example given for a short sword and a dagger, the knight may choose Weapon Focus(Short sword) and Weapon Focus(Dagger). But, these feats only apply when both of the weapons are used at the same time. You do not need to fill any prerequisites for any of these feats. The Weapon Mastery feats are: Exotic Weapon Proficiency(This must be selected first, if the knight is not already proficent in the weapon) Weapon Focus Weapon Specialization Greater Weapon Focus Greater Weapon Specialization Improved Critical Rapid Reload(if choosing a crossbow) Weapon Finesse(If this feat is applicable to the chosen weapon) Weapon Penetration* Note: These feats must be selected in this order, but Weapon Finesse does not have to be taken if the knight desires not to. The knight also need not take a Weapon Mastery feat if he already has that feat. For example, if Derek Crownguard already had Weapon Specialization(Halberd), then he will get Greater Weapon Focus(Halberd), the next level or Weapon Mastery. My Father's Sword (Ex): A knight inherits his weapon(not necessarily a sword) from his ancestors(not necessarily his father). So, at first level of My Father's Sword, the knight's weapon functions as a masterwork weapon for him alone. It also gains a +1 enhancement bonus for each level of My Father's Sword. This need not be an actual +1 enhancement, but may be something the equivalent of a +1 enhancement. A knight may also choose not to unlock a special ability inside his weapon for a time, to "save" enhancements to be made later(so, if a special weapon ability is the equivalent of 3 enhancements, then they can choose not to take 3 levels of My Father's Sword and get that ability later). If the knight inherits a weapon that is already masterwork or enchanted, then each level adds to it another +1 enhancement(including first level). Riding Aptitude (Ex): Similar to Weapon Mastery. At each level of Riding Aptitude, the Knight gets a mounted combat feat. These must be taken in order, but the knight need not fill any prerequisites. If the knight already has a Riding Aptitude feat, he need not take it again. For example, if Derek Crownguard chose Mounted Combat as one of his starting feats, then his first Riding Aptitude would by Ride-By Attack. This is the only way that Trememndous Charge and Born in the Saddle can be taken. The Riding Aptitude Feats are: Mounted Combat Ride-By Attack Trample Spirited Charge Mounted Archery Tremendous Charge(that's the name of the new feat in the DLCS that let's you use your mount's Strength, right?) Born in the Saddle** Bonus Feats: At 5th level and every five levels afterword, a knight gains a bonus feat. This must be drawn off of this list: Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Far Shot, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Leadership, Manyshot, Negotiator, Persuasive, Point-Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, Run, Self-Sufficient, Shot on the Run, Skill Focus, Toughness, Tower Shield Proficiency, Trample, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Whirlwind Attack. Pure Heart (Su): At 7th level, a knight gets a +2 morale bonus to all Will saves against fear effects. This increases to +4 at level 11, +6 at level 13, +8 at level 17, and full immunity at level 19. Once a person has taken a level in Knight, they may not raise a level in any class other than Fighter, Cleric, Paladin, or Noble(note: a Paladin may also take levels in Knight). Note for Kender Knights: A Kender Knight does not need to be lawful, but cannot be chaotic. They may also trade in the Pure Heart ability for additional Bonus Feats. This also applies to Kender Paladins, except they cannot replace Aura of Courage. Weapon Penetration: This is an ability that only a knight may get. A Knight qualifies for Weapon Penetration when he has taken all the other Weapon Masteries that can be taken. A knight chooses one kind of damage resistance, and from then on, his weapon functions as a that kind of weapon for purposes of damage resistance. A knight can not choose DR -/magic, but can choose such things as -/lawful. *Born in the Saddle: This is an ability that only a knight may get. A Knight qualifies for Born in the Saddle when he has taken all the other Riding Aptitudes that can be taken. The knight recieves a +2 bonus to all Ride checks and attack and damage rolls while mounted. This can be taken more than once; its effects stack. Ex-Knights: Any Knight that breaks his Code of Chivalry becomes an Ex-Knight. Ex-Knights cannot gain any more class levels of Knight, and they lose My Father's Sword and Pure Heart. Equipment: The standard equipment for a human knight is full-plate, a longsword, a heavy wooden shield, a lance, and a heavy war horse. Many humans use bastard swords, greatswords, and maces, also. All elves, with the exception of Dimernesti and Dargonesti commonly have the same gear, except for a light war horse, and possibly half-plate down to chainmail. Both kinds of Sea Elves ride aquatic creatures, such as dolphins, and all their equipment would likely be made out of coral(same statistics as normal gear of its kind, but with a lower Hardness). Ogre knights would ride anything that would carry their bulk, and would be more inclined toward clubs and maces then swords, as well as possibly lighter armor. Minotaur knights would usually use either a bastard sword, greatsword, or a greataxe(or a minotaur racial weapon), and maybe lighter armor. Dwarven knights would be more inclined toward axes and warhammers, and would probably ride a light warhorse(Flint's one of the only dwarves I've known of that's allergic to horses, so don't even think of mentioning it!). Gully dwarven knights would be similar, but would me more likely to ride a goat then a warpony(hmm...maybe a goat with the warbeast template...), also with lighter armor. Gnomish knights would either be about the same as dwarven ones(except riding warponies or riding dogs), invent some sort of robot-armor(like Sir Grumsh, I think it was, from Conundrum) or at least prosthetic limbs, and maybe even invent a robotic steed...Kender knights would probably not wear much heavier armor then chainmail, would use a hoopak instead of a shortsword or a lance, and would ride...anything that would carry them. I would have posted a list, but it includes most of the MM1&2, from heavy war horses to rhinoceri to gold dragons to black dragons to blink dogs to worgs...of course, many kender knights are suddenly deprived of life when they try to saddle up a shadow mastif. Centaur knights would probably have the same equipment as a human, except no steed, and maybe not very heavy armor. Baaz and Kapak draconian knights would most likely have the same equipment as humans(maybe not plate armor, though, because it may get in the way of their wings). Irda knights would usually use a bludgeoning weapon, and possibly lighter armor. Half-elves would either use human equipment or elven equipment, it depends on their culture. Half-ogres also would either use human equipment, or ogre, depending on culture.
#2 zombiegleemax Nov 30, 2003 21:45:54	Look, guys, I need some input on this. I've worked really hard on it, and it's important to me. I've been through a few things recently, and I just ask that somebody give some constructive criticism to my class. I know that it's really not important, but right now, it feels like it is.
#3 cam_banks Nov 30, 2003 22:35:49	Jacen, this version of your knight class seems to be very focused on feat selection without a distinct enough set of abilities. It seems as if you're really just creating a mounted weapon specialist, with the ability to access a laundry list of feats. Abilities such as My Father's Sword and Pure Heart seem secondary to this, which is a shame since they're the meat of the character concept. Consider that multiclassing as a fighter is a much better way for this character to get the feats he needs. What does this class offer independent of multiclassing which provides a distinction? The knight gains a number of social class skills, useful for any knightly character, but beyond that it would almost be to the detriment of the character not to take levels in other classes. A fighter/noble provides a much more robust character, in fact, than a straight knight. Also, I am wary of the multiple weapon combos. Two-Weapon Fighting isn't mentioned in the feat progression, yet a knight who chooses sword and dagger (and only gains the feat benefits when using them) should probably have that feat in order to succeed at the style. At the end of the day, it's still clear to me why knights are generally reserved as prestige classes (including the cavalier PrC, in the Complete Warrior). Historically, knights were the elite warriors, those who occupied a niche role above the common foot soldier or cavalryman. Knighthood was something to aspire to. I would consider the merits of embodying the classic chivalric ideals into a knight base class, leaving the bonus feats to fighters and providing a suitable base for knightly prestige classes to fill in the blanks. Cheers, Cam
#4 zombiegleemax Dec 01, 2003 10:27:14	Also, just looking at it immediately, you're giving 27 abilities away, plus all the level up feats (1, 3, 6 etc), which is another 7. In 20 levels, the fighter gets 19 feats, so it would strike me that you're giving far too much away with a core class, and no real drawbacks. Spells just aren't a vital part of paladins. A paladin gets a sword that gets better with use (or at least, the version I use does. The Monte Cook Book of Hallowed Might, I think), a monk gets better hands. This guy gets that, plus all the riding and fighting abilities he could possibly want from fighter. I'd say it was overpowered. It's also possibly also unnecessary, since if you want an elite knight, you give them a PrC. If you want a knight in training, you start them off as fighter or paladin. If you're still keen on making this class work, tell us why they have perform, and perhaps let them lose some abilities if they break their code of conduct, as a paladin or Solamnic Knight would.
#5 zombiegleemax Dec 06, 2003 22:58:40	Originally posted by pddisc Also, just looking at it immediately, you're giving 27 abilities away, plus all the level up feats (1, 3, 6 etc), which is another 7. In 20 levels, the fighter gets 19 feats, so it would strike me that you're giving far too much away with a core class, and no real drawbacks. Spells just aren't a vital part of paladins. A paladin gets a sword that gets better with use (or at least, the version I use does. The Monte Cook Book of Hallowed Might, I think), a monk gets better hands. This guy gets that, plus all the riding and fighting abilities he could possibly want from fighter. I'd say it was overpowered. It's also possibly also unnecessary, since if you want an elite knight, you give them a PrC. If you want a knight in training, you start them off as fighter or paladin. If you're still keen on making this class work, tell us why they have perform, and perhaps let them lose some abilities if they break their code of conduct, as a paladin or Solamnic Knight would. Thank you. Perform is a class skill that I thought needed in their after reading the book Parzival(at least I think that it was the book I'm thinking of), which is about one of king Arthur's knights. In that book, their are tons of knights that sing, dance, tell stories, write poems, etc. It was even written as an epic popem by a real life knight. I'm not married to the idea of Perform as a class skill, but I like it in there. It makes me think that it's not ENTIRELY combat-based. Also, ther DO lose some abilities if they break their code of conduct(I'm changing it to that from code of chivalry, because I've not heard the word chivalry used once in DL). Okay, my aim with this class was this: a non-spellcasting master of a single weapon. I only added all the mounted things because so many people here wanted them. I've never seen DL knights as quite as such. I mean, they are mounted warriors, but not quite as such as real knights. I based a lot of their abilities on Sturm Brightblade, Derek Crownguard, and Aaron Tallbow, the three knights that I know the most about. All three used fairly powerful magic weapons(bastard sword, halberd, and longbow respectively), and they inherited their weapons from their family. Well, I didn't want any characters having +5 or so weapons at level 1 if they chose to have inherited it from their family, hence My Father's Sword(also based on Ancestral Daisho from the Samurai class. I was thinking o fhaving this ability function the exact same way, but I didn't). That way, when they got a +5 weapon, their character would be balanced for using +5 weapons. Plus, since that is the only weapon they ever use(even befor Sturm got the Brightblade, he always used a bastard sword), I wanted to make them good at it. Pure Heart I got from Mongoose's Power Classes: Knight. I thought it sounded like a good thing to have. Hey, should I just quit this and use the one on the Nexus that Cam(I think it was) made? EDIT: No, wait, it was Trampas.