Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 amon_hok Nov 23, 2003 5:10:11	Curious do the deities live in the great wheel or their own cosmology? I hear Paladine lives in the Dome of creation do the rest of the good deities live there as well? Where do the deities of evil and neutrality live?
#2 The_White_Sorcerer Nov 23, 2003 5:35:16	Good Deities: Dome of Creation Neutral Deities: Hidden Vale Evil Deities: The Abyss Krynn has its own cosmology.
#3 amon_hok Nov 23, 2003 6:20:13	:-) Thank You for the info, Is their anywhere i can get info on the planes? How many planes in Krynn are their is known?
#4 The_White_Sorcerer Nov 23, 2003 6:28:47	The info's in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. The Krynn cosmology has all the regular planes (elemental planes, energy planes, transitive planes, material plane) plus three outer planes (the ones I mentioned above).
#5 zombiegleemax Nov 23, 2003 11:18:50	As with anything else, you're free to adjust this if you want to. 2E assigned Great Wheel home planes to the Krynn deities. But since Krynn is largely a closed world, and doesn't interact much with other settings, adn custom cosmologies are in vogue in 3E (Toril has one too now), you can run with it without a problem.
#6 cam_banks Nov 23, 2003 11:33:19	Originally posted by Psionycx As with anything else, you're free to adjust this if you want to. 2E assigned Great Wheel home planes to the Krynn deities. The 3rd edition cosmology is a return to that originally presented in Dragonlance Adventures. The Tales of the Lance boxed set featured the shift to using generic Great Wheel planes, since at that time TSR wanted all of its worlds to be interconnected. That's no longer the case under WOTC. Cheers, Cam
#7 The_White_Sorcerer Nov 23, 2003 11:49:19	You know what? We should think about the planar traits of the three outer planes. So that we can get the obvious out of the way, I'll present you with the alignment traits for each plane: Dome of Creation Strongly Good-Aligned. Hidden Vale Strongly Neutral-Aligned. The Abyss Strongly Evil-Aligned. The realm of each lawful (LG, LN, LE) deity has a mild Law trait. The realm of each chaotic (CG, CN, CE) deity has a mild Chaos trait. There. Anyone have ideas for their gravity, flow of time, and such?
#8 zombiegleemax Nov 23, 2003 12:08:18	Well, the planes aren't really meant to be explored in DL. The planes are where the deities live and that's that. Now, I'm a fan of the Great Wheel and so I don't like that setup much. In order to make the DL Planes interestng they eed to be expanded. They need different layers, landmarks, and interesting locales. I see the Blood War waging in the Abyss still as the Devils and Demons have their own layers. I don't like the thought of layers because layers makes me think one on top of another. I see the Layers of the Abyss being next to each other, yet infinite. The Fiendish creatures would be largely autonomous although each evil deity would claim the alliance of an army of Fiends and Evil Petitioners. We probably should completely get away from the old Fiendish politics (Asmodeus, Orcus, etc) if only to avoid creating lots of contradictions ala FR. It might be necessary to bring a Demon Lord named Demogorgon into the picture if only because he was mentioned in that one Tas story. :D Also, realy like the idea of the Godless Yugoloths, their fingers pitting Fiend against Fiend, so lets keep 'em. The Gods of Neutrality would live in their Hidden Vale which has its assorted layers as well. There could be more Chaotic or Lawful areas, but nothing to the extent of Limbo or Mechanus. The exemplar race of the Hidden Vale would be the Rilmani. As agents of order they'd work in tandem with Gilean, but not be beholden to him as underlings. I don't know about the Celestials and the Dome of Creation, I'm not good with good planes.
#9 sweetmeats Nov 23, 2003 12:24:12	I prefer the standard wheel cosmology in my games, but thats just my preference.
#10 zombiegleemax Nov 23, 2003 12:52:24	I just started a new thread called "The Abyss" I'm working on a full write-up there.
#11 zombiegleemax Nov 23, 2003 22:08:19	Well, I traditionally stuck with the Planescape explanation that Krynn natives were simply too Clueless about the real layout of the planes to know what they were talking about, which was why they had a kooky cosmology. In 1E it was remarked (in the orginal DragonLance writeup) that the gods generally "reassigned" characters who advanced beyond 18th level to other worlds (people like Raistlin and Ariakas being rare exceptions). There was also a reference to Takhisis under the Nine Hells in the 1E Manual of the Planes. However, many Prime worlds are surrounded by unqie demiplanes that keep them cut off from the rest of the cosmos, which makes them hard to come or go from. For example, Athas, the world of the Dark Dun setting is surrounded by The Grey, which seems to be a demiplane sharing many elements of the Ethereal Plane but which is yet completely different. The Grey isolates Athas from the planes. It makes travel between Athas and the Inner Planes difficult (but not insurmountable). But it makes accessing the Outer Planes nearly impossible. This is why a world crawling with powerful psionicists and wizards capable of casting 10th level magic doesn't have the kind of extensive planar contacts you would expect it to have. Krynn may be much the same. The Dome of Creation, Hidden Vale and the Abyss may be demiplanes in the Ethereal that surround Krynn metaphysically. In this way the gods can maintain control over the planar access to and from Krynn as well as manage the flow of souls from it. That said, it is not unreasonable to suggest that these deific demiplanes in turn have connections to the planes of the Great Wheel. If you venture deep into the Abyss (Krynn's), you may eventually find Takhisis's lower planar connections (which may account for references to her using Abishai (Devils) in the creation of the Draconians. Likewise, the Dome of Creation may connect the Upper Planes, and the Hidden Vale to the Middle ones. Thus can Paladine/Fizban meet up with Finder Wyvernspur (from Forgotten Realms) on the Outer Planes. After all, we presume that *something* lies beyond the realms of the gods, or else why do they need to maintain those realms to "protect" Krynn from the wild forces of the Ethereal Sea? What lies beyond maybe be the Great Wheel that is the shared planes of all worlds. You just can't get to them from Krynn without passing through the realms of the gods first.
#12 cam_banks Nov 23, 2003 22:45:39	Originally posted by Psionycx You just can't get to them from Krynn without passing through the realms of the gods first. Very astute observation. If anything, Krynn's planar cosmology represents a bubble in the Ethereal Sea, a self-contained macrocosmic sphere surrounded by the realms of the gods and their servants. Khellendros (and Takhisis) have already shown that one can access portals out of this planar bubble and venture deep into the Beyond. This is where the alien dragons hailed from, to where the world was relocated by Takhisis (and surrounded by her own protective shell in the form of the necromantic barrier), and to where the souls of the dead apparently pass when they go through the Gate of Souls that Gilean guards. So, assuming one would want to use the Great Wheel as it stood, it would essentially have to exist wholly outside (and surround) Krynn's own planar model, which by its very design serves to proxy for those planes. Cheers, Cam
#13 sweetmeats Nov 24, 2003 7:17:07	Just because TSR had all the AD&D worlds linked doesn't mean that you have to. I know you all reaslise this but its there for clarification. As far as I'm concerned whatever campaign I use is seperate and the other worlds don't exist. As for the whole Abyss thing, I just assume that the people of Krynn name the Lower Planes as the Abyss.
#14 zombiegleemax Nov 24, 2003 7:25:31	Planar cosmology, and its corresponding mythology, has always been one of my favorite aspects of gaming and of fantasy in general. Up until the DLCS, the information on the planes was sporadic, scattered across countless novels and adventures and the like, and like much about DL, some of it was pretty contradictory. Going back to the original concept and tying that in with the War of Souls, came the "Orb in the Ethereal Sea" concept. Slowly but surely, the planes should be fleshed out, and hopefully before too long there will be a "mini-Manual of the Dragonlance Planes," but it'll probably be part and parcel of some other product. You'll have to ask Jamie ;) Christopher
#15 amon_hok Nov 24, 2003 7:37:19	So not to be to dumb about this the planes The Dome of Creation is not the Seven Heavens? The Hidden Vale is not Bytopia? The Abyss of Krynn is not the Abyss of D&D
#16 The_White_Sorcerer Nov 24, 2003 7:38:45	Originally posted by Amon Hok The Dome of Creation is not the Seven Heavens? The Hidden Vale is not Bytopia? The Abyss of Krynn is not the Abyss of D&D Correct. Besides, Bytopia is a good plane, not a neutral one.
#17 zombiegleemax Nov 24, 2003 20:14:49	Originally posted by Cam Banks So, assuming one would want to use the Great Wheel as it stood, it would essentially have to exist wholly outside (and surround) Krynn's own planar model, which by its very design serves to proxy for those planes. Cheers, Cam A suitably clever (or lucky) person could possibly find a planar connection to/from Krynn that doesn't pass through one of the deific demiplanes that surround it. But this would be extremely rare. Even Raistlin didn't have such a thing. More likely, a planar traveler from Krynn would end up in one of these godly realms. Now, planar travel has never been big on Krynn, presumably because the gods want to protect their experiment from outside contamination as much as possible. If you ventured into the godly realms, you would likely find all kinds of planar connections that would lead to the Great Wheel, and to realms of alien gods. The existence of a boundary around Krynn formed by these godly realms also explains why no other non-native deities have ever made inroads there. When you look at more "open" worlds like Oerth or Toril, you see at least some influence of foreign gods (the Azetc gods on Oerth, and an assortment of Norse, Finnish, Egyptian and Celtic gods on Toril). Since the conduits of Belief on Krynn do not flow directly to the Outer Planes, but into the demiplanes of the Krynn gods, foreign gods cannot gain a foothold there as they might do on other worlds.
#18 amon_hok Nov 25, 2003 6:08:50	Has anyone thought about what the Hidden Vale and The dome of Creation looked like? I see someone has done the Abyss (which looks good) But i would assume the Hidden vale would be half nature and half industry like a 2 parter one layer is all nature and the second layer is a city filled with a thriving industry for the merchant goddess and the forge deity
#19 baron_the_curse Nov 25, 2003 22:08:27	I’ve always been attracted to the concept of the various planes presented in D&D. I’m hoping that the upcoming Holy Order of the Stars sheds some light on the new Dragonlance cosmology.
#20 iltharanos Nov 27, 2003 0:50:10	Noone's asked, but I like the fact that Krynn has its own relatively unique cosmology. Given that, it's technically feasible to access alternate worlds. How? The Plane of Shadow. If Krynn's plane of shadow is exactly like the Manual of the Planes' Plane of Shadow (and I've seen no indication otherwise), then simply utilize the 5th level bard, 6th level sor/wiz spell known as Shadow Walk, wander off the beaten path, and perhaps stumble onto new worlds ... like Malys' homeworld. Hehe.
#21 jonesy Nov 27, 2003 2:12:17	A suitably clever (or lucky) person could possibly find a planar connection to/from Krynn that doesn't pass through one of the deific demiplanes that surround it. But this would be extremely rare. Even Raistlin didn't have such a thing. Raistlin isn't a very good example for anything relating to planar or interstellar travel, neither for or against, since he hadn't even thought about other worlds until Dalamar asked him about it in Legends, and even then he didn't seem very interested in the matter being so occupied with his goal of becoming a god.