OK just so that I can get some help I do think that Athas has two moons but is that correct? If so what are their names? how much larger are they from our moon and also what color or distinctness do they have?
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2. Ral & Guthay (I think)
3. Thy're golden, if I recall, and Guthay's actually fairly large while Ral's smaller. I'm guessing the former is probably up to 2x the size of our moon, while the latter's about half. But I could be really off on that.
Which one I can't remember, and I'm pretty sure it was a joke to begin with.
Your button stuck or something? Patience is a virtue.
Originally posted by Gr8Scott
Any life on them?
Well, there's a legend that says Silk Wyrms hatch out of Guthay. :D
Yes, I know it's the direction that Troy and the gang wanted to take this, but COME ON.
Okay, enough. On to the moons: I always thought Ral was the big one and Guthay was the little one. Regardless, the little one has a greenish tinge to it, at least, it does on the cover of the original game. Which is which is up to you: we had this discussion on the old board and ended up on some tangent dealing with space halflings....
Long story and if you want to read it, you'll just have to look it up: I've had a year of therapy to deal with what I read there.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Okay, no one is allowed to make fun of my triple post ever again.
No kidding.
Holy cow, never seen 5 duplicated posts at once before. hehe
Originally posted by Cyrian
Well, there's a legend that says Silk Wyrms hatch out of Guthay. :D
Did you get that from an official source, or is that your own design?
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Dear. Sweet. LORD. If ANYONE brings up the "space halflings" theory again...
Yes, I know it's the direction that Troy and the gang wanted to take this, but COME ON.
Actually, that was less Troy and more Bill (don't ask me to spell his last name) on that theory.
At least that is the impression I got at last GenCon where I was able to talk to most of the designers.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Did you get that from an official source, or is that your own design?
It sounds vaugley familiar, so I may have seen it somewhere before. Not that I can remember for sure.
Just a note, my screen name was from my first Dark Sun character made before the names of the moons were known. I took it from a vido game I used to play at a liquor store called Rai-den, however, it looked like it was Ral-den. Odd coincidences!
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Come on, guys, you disappoint me. Uncle Tantor and the silk wyrms legend is in Dragon Kings.
/me blames a morning caffiene deficency.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Come on, guys, you disappoint me. Uncle Tantor and the silk wyrms legend is in Dragon Kings.
Damn, and I was just reading that earlier today.
/me goes back to it
Now if I can just find the info on that supposedly silk wyrm farm that raises silk wyrms for their silk.
Otherwise, if what was spoken in the legend was it, then that just reinforces the fact that I think silk wyrm silk should be the mithril of Athas, but oh well that's an old argument, and I will just use it for my campaigns until I can find the info on that farm.
:P
Orbital machanics suggests that terristrial size worlds, like Athas, will only have one moon that is not a captured asteroid.
Another case in point for a much larger than Earth style Athas.
On to the bit about orbital mechanics, though: Earth is the only planet with a single moon, unless you consider Pluto and Charon a planet and not a captured asteroid from the Oort Cloud (I do not). We have not seen enough other worlds to know what is the norm, but a larger terrestial world with two smaller moons is a distinct possibility.
I would tend to agree with Mach that Athas is a bit larger than Earth. This would also explain why Athasians are tougher than their [regular D&D] counterparts.
So, let's have a vote: this has come up a few times in recent boards, so let's have some Aye's and Nay's.
Who thinks Athas and the Tablelands need to be larger than they currently are?
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I agree with that point.
On to the bit about orbital mechanics, though: Earth is the only planet with a single moon, unless you consider Pluto and Charon a planet and not a captured asteroid from the Oort Cloud (I do not). We have not seen enough other worlds to know what is the norm, but a larger terrestial world with two smaller moons is a distinct possibility.
Actually, they're large Kupler Belt objects, IIRC. We've found dozens of small worlds in that orbit (none as big as Pluto, though
Jury is still out on what exactly to call them; astronomy seems to be in a state of flux as our telescopes get better and better and we get a clearer picture of the universe around us Who thinks Athas and the Tablelands need to be larger than they currently are?
Might want to make this a separate thread; it'll get buried down at the bottom of this one, since it's slightly off-topic of the original post. Either way: Athas - doesn't need to be much larger than as is, but Tablelands could be enlarged.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Actually, they're large Kupler Belt objects, IIRC. We've found dozens of small worlds in that orbit (none as big as Pluto, though
Might want to make this a separate thread; it'll get buried down at the bottom of this one, since it's slightly off-topic of the original post. Either way: Athas - doesn't need to be much larger than as is, but Tablelands could be enlarged.
I agree the Tablelands could be larger. Need to be actually. and I love Brax's Map of Athas. I am going to scan the only Color copy I have so that I can expand my campaigns beyond the Warrens of Tyr
HOW BIG IS BIG ENOUGH FOR ALL OF YOU... (a double entendre just waiting for a bite... oh oh another one)
Originally posted by kefka
please god... make the fighting stop... can't we just pick a map... how big do we want it to be... how big is the sea of silt... how much of it is land... we need a strong leader here
HOW BIG IS BIG ENOUGH FOR ALL OF YOU... (a double entendre just waiting for a bite... oh oh another one)
you really need to see Brax's map it is AWESOME
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Another case in point for a much larger than Earth style Athas.
Not exactly. To truely have multiple moons with no danger of collision that close to the gravity of the star, Athas would have to be a simi-gas giant. I would need its gravity to be about twice as much as earth's and be about 5 to 10 times larger than Earth.
Also, like our own Earth, Athas could be a fluke with two moons that are in a stable orbit. The Earth's own moon is slowly moving away from Earth (it is not going to escape). If the moon slowly moved towards the Earth, than about 3 billion years ago, the moon would have crashed into the Earth. Life would have had to start over if life originated on Earth and there would probably be a red surface like Mars with green alge seas and no higher organisms. Also, plate techtonics would have stopped and there would be very few continents left and shallow seas. Also, there probably would be a severe and eradic axis shift. Making winter/summer very extreme.
I would tend to agree with Mach that Athas is a bit larger than Earth. This would also explain why Athasians are tougher than their [regular D&D] counterparts.
Gravity depends on mass and density. I would say the differences in gravity are slight. Athas probably has 1.1Gs at the most. However, Athas can be twice the radius of Earth or more if it is not as dense or has the mass as the Earth. The lack of metal would explain a lot. Athas can be much larger than Earth and have the same gravity.
I for one would not like a planetary map or me or my players to know the exact size and geography of Athas. Players, confined to their little regions, would have no idea what the rest of the world would be like, unless the explore it for themselves, creating an adventure in itself. I do create a lot of other far off Dark Sun regions and I would like not to have to fit into the confines of someone elses ideas. I try to make all my regions, as regions without an exact location. The land of Whateveria is just a month's journy over those mountains etc. I have put regions to fit into the Brax map, however, I felt creatively confined by doing so and made up be creating other details not in the Brax map that could have been missed. I feel in a land of little communication and were survival is really all the counts, any world map should be rather vague, like the ancient maps of old. I wouldn't be surprised if the Athasians think the world is flat and the sun and moons get swallowed by Athas every night, then travel through its belly to appear at the other side, just like the ancient Eygptians believed.
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
Not exactly. To truely have multiple moons with no danger of collision that close to the gravity of the star, Athas would have to be a simi-gas giant. I would need its gravity to be about twice as much as earth's and be about 5 to 10 times larger than Earth.
Well maybe it is. I mean, in history of Darksun, very few outsiders gained access to Athas(Githzerai and githyanki being native of the plane, gravity of any world should slow them. But it doesn't: for game balance reason a suppose) Anyway just to mention that those races should feel(although very slitely) Athas's gravity. If individual from a terrian-like worlds were to venture into Athas's gravity, he MAY feel the *weight* upon its shoulders but Athas's cosmologie being what it is, they rarely can(if not very very rarely). Anyway all that just to say that athasian may have earth's double gravity on their shoulders and dont know about it(it's normal for them (maybe that's why most athasian are built stronguer then in other worlds(some races could have adapted better then others.
Gravity depends on mass and density. I would say the differences in gravity are slight. Athas probably has 1.1Gs at the most. However, Athas can be twice the radius of Earth or more if it is not as dense or has the mass as the Earth. The lack of metal would explain a lot. Athas can be much larger than Earth and have the same gravity.
See above except for the metal theory; metal was plentifull once. the cleansing wars depleated the natural rescourses. (and also because troy denning and the other guy(dont remember his name) wanted to create a non-tolkienesk world: but that is not the point here:D
I for one would not like a planetary map or me or my players to know the exact size and geography of Athas. Players, confined to their little regions, would have no idea what the rest of the world would be like, unless the explore it for themselves, creating an adventure in itself. I do create a lot of other far off Dark Sun regions and I would like not to have to fit into the confines of someone elses ideas. I try to make all my regions, as regions without an exact location. The land of Whateveria is just a month's journy over those mountains etc. I have put regions to fit into the Brax map, however, I felt creatively confined by doing so and made up be creating other details not in the Brax map that could have been missed. I feel in a land of little communication and were survival is really all the counts, any world map should be rather vague, like the ancient maps of old.
Good idea.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Athasians think the world is flat and the sun and moons get swallowed by Athas every night, then travel through its belly to appear at the other side, just like the ancient Eygptians believed.
In the Green age Athasians were worshipers of false gods(like us on earth:my point of view anyway) so I wouldn't be surprise of that belief. There is a bard tale that say: Once a powerfull earth lover found the Flat-wolrld Athas's bathtub plugg and pulled on it, emptying the oceans.
By the way, what's the trick for not having our own text in bold when we want to quote/reply several times in the same post??
sorry
Athas probably has 1.1Gs at the most
Gravity is based on density. Density is based on planetary composition. Earth's actual mass is mostly derived from its internal core of iron (the rest is simply icing). If Athas were to have a similar core, metal would not be so rare. Hence, the idea that Athas has a different core composition (unlikely) or that the core is much smaller, hence less dense. With less density comes a lesser pull of gravity. With a lesser pull of gravity comes the ability to be of much greater size. With said greater size, a planet has the capaicty to have more obiting objects abound, yet, due to its lower gravity, such objects would need to be in a slightly closer orbit that the earth-moon equation. Hence the reason for the Athasian moons to appear so friggin huge (they're not that big, or they would exert some rather interesting effects on the planet, but proximity does little until very extreme ranges). Multiple moons are perfectly fine, if their orbits are not contrary (i.e. if they are of equal size, but one is close and one is quite far, lets not forget that a planetary body can still exert a decent effect as far out as its L-points).
So . . . . Athas probably has much less than 1G, though to give an exact number requires far more information, computation, and of course, speculation.
[End thread Hijacking]
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Come on, guys, you disappoint me. Uncle Tantor and the silk wyrms legend is in Dragon Kings.
Yes, and there is 1 Spelljammer Colony sized battle cruiser in orbit over Athas from the days before the Realm became a "Closed System" as a side effect of the lifemasters ripping the Realm from the normal connections to the Astral, Etheral, etc from using the the power of the Sun to undo damage their own magic did in the first place. (Like putting out a fire by throwing gasoline on it)
Perhaps the "missing gods" saw what the Lifemasters were capable of and decided to isolate the Realm like "Ravenloft" to prevent their knowledege from spreading to other Realms/Spheres thus the "BLack" and "Grey"
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Brax and I worked on a newer version right before he "retired" from this board. I still have it, but want to clean it up (a lot) before it's released. The overall look is very similar to the old one, but with some additions that he wanted on the original, but couldn't argue past the artist.
Dawnstealer, any idea or need of assistance with this map I really want to expand my campaigns and knowledge of Athas
Brax and I worked on a newer version right before he "retired" from this board. I still have it, but want to clean it up (a lot) before it's released. The overall look is very similar to the old one, but with some additions that he wanted on the original, but couldn't argue past the artist.
Dawnstealer, did you ever finish what you were adding?
[email]Gr8ScottImsol8@yahoo.com[/email]
Btw, Dawnstealer is hum evaporated :D Havent been seem in a while.
Galek is greatscott? Greetings back. Though, you are bringning much old threads at the same time. You might not get all the attention you wanted for each of these old threads.
Btw, Dawnstealer is hum evaporated :D Havent been seem in a while.
Thanks Sebastien, gr8 to be back, been trying to play catch up on here. I know and agree about the old threads, but, I'm still playing 2E so I'm trying to get caught up here. Sad about Dawnstealer, hope still around. Yeah, Gr8Scott is me and Galek is my favorite character so I Stole his Identity. I'm working on a lonnnggg Short story of how I escaped from Ur Draxa before Kalak was killed. hehe. we shall see. sorry I havent been in touch, dodging snipers and RPG's and VBIED's keeps you up ALL the time, and I'm just a medic/Mechanic. going to finally finish my work soon, and going to work an a close to scale model of Tyr in FY11 or so, pics to follow
Scott
Gravity is based on density. Density is based on planetary composition. Earth's actual mass is mostly derived from its internal core of iron (the rest is simply icing). If Athas were to have a similar core, metal would not be so rare. Hence, the idea that Athas has a different core composition (unlikely) or that the core is much smaller, hence less dense. With less density comes a lesser pull of gravity.
[End thread Hijacking]
Theres a problem with the smaller core. Magnetosphere. To small and not active core = ewerything on surface fryed like in microwave
. The wolcanic activitiy in DS suggest an wery active core, mayby its bigger then Earts and, thanks to size, pulled all metals deeper underground?Thats, of course, if Athas aint flat :P
when i first started mapping i calculated the size of Athas based off the Distant Paths maps and the overall size of each of the boxed set maps. i think the final number was slightly smaller than earth's moon. when i had mentioned the size, someone had the idea that Athas was actually orbiting Guthay, the larger "moon" in the Athasian night sky; and that Ral was Athas' sister. so basically Ral and Athas are the moons of Guthay. i kind of liked that idea. mostly because no other campaign setting had the campaign world as a moon of another world.
It will look wery odd
And if Guthay was so big to support a moon it could be a gas giant (that will explain Guthay's color). Or better, twin planets rotating over the same point like Pluton-Charon pair.Or Athas is still flat ;P
when i first started mapping i calculated the size of Athas based off the Distant Paths maps and the overall size of each of the boxed set maps. i think the final number was slightly smaller than earth's moon. when i had mentioned the size, someone had the idea that Athas was actually orbiting Guthay, the larger "moon" in the Athasian night sky; and that Ral was Athas' sister. so basically Ral and Athas are the moons of Guthay. i kind of liked that idea. mostly because no other campaign setting had the campaign world as a moon of another world.
Actually, for my homebrew campaign setting, I have two larger worlds orbiting a smaller world (or rather, they are orbiting each other and the smaller world is "trapped" between them). I've always liked the idea of distorting the preconceptions about planets/moons. I've considered the concept that Athas orbits Guthay, the only thing is it could really, really change how the Athasian calendar system functions, which was already defined on the two moons, set in an obvious configuration to orbit Athas, and not vice-versa.
Still it's an intriguing idea.
i like your idea of two planets orbiting a smaller planet too, that's pretty cool.
3. Thy're golden, if I recall, and Guthay's actually fairly large while Ral's smaller. I'm guessing the former is probably up to 2x the size of our moon, while the latter's about half. But I could be really off on that.
Actually, I think that Guthay is pale white and Ral is a brighter red-brown.
Gravity is based on density. Density is based on planetary composition. Earth's actual mass is mostly derived from its internal core of iron (the rest is simply icing). If Athas were to have a similar core, metal would not be so rare.
I pointed this out on another thread: Just because a planet has a metal core doesn't mean it is going to have a lot of metal on its surface. The reasons why planets have metal cores is because during their formative stages, planets are nothing but molten balls of matter. At this time, the heavy, molten elements migrate towards the core. (Gravity causes these elements to sink).
In the case of earth, it cooled down quickly enough to trap some iron on its surface (LOTS of iron if you compare it to Athas). Athas could have cooled down much more slowly during its formation, resulting in depleted metals, but a heavier core. This would also make Athas more massive (not larger, but having more mass), which could account for a smaller planet with gravity comparable to Earth.
itf
So kind of on the same subject, what's the story on the Messenger? In one of the earlier adventures, it said the Messenger failed to appear in the night sky when it was supposed to. What were the consequences on that, and did it ever appear again?
Nothing official. But, that was one explaination for the earthquake that opened up the rift in the hinterlands allowing the Kreen empire access to the Tyr region. Supposedly the story line was headed in the direction of having the messenger be a blue age artifact (read: spaceship), carrying two nature masters and a nature bender who had been in stasis. after it crashed they would somehow be awoken and start meddling in the affairs of athas.
I pointed this out on another thread: Just because a planet has a metal core doesn't mean it is going to have a lot of metal on its surface. The reasons why planets have metal cores is because during their formative stages, planets are nothing but molten balls of matter. At this time, the heavy, molten elements migrate towards the core. (Gravity causes these elements to sink).
In the case of earth, it cooled down quickly enough to trap some iron on its surface (LOTS of iron if you compare it to Athas). Athas could have cooled down much more slowly during its formation, resulting in depleted metals, but a heavier core. This would also make Athas more massive (not larger, but having more mass), which could account for a smaller planet with gravity comparable to Earth.
sb1
Errr.. The reason why there isn't much metals left on Athas is the Ancient "Nature Masters" civilization depleted the "easy finds" building that tower they used to suck the life out of the Sun (Turning it From Blue to Yellow) to try to stop some kind of problem in the Ocean (which they caused in th first place by messing with the "Lifeforce" of Athas itself). Add to that that they were a Space Faring, Flying Cities,Submerged Cities type of "high tech" sociaty and they pretty much would have raped the envoroment of every resource by the time they caused their own "extinction"
Of Course that Tower was used again to Create the First Sorcerer Kings (Champions of Rajjat) turning the Sun from Yellow to Red Giant and causing the current State of Athas
Arming the Armies of the "Cleansing Wars" also was depletive and weapons do eventually wear out, which is why the only metal weapons seen today would be in any given Sorcerer King's Armory....Only they would have the ability to upkeep any surviving weapons from ancient times, and only they would have the resources to find the "hard find" metal deposits (In really deep mines)
Errr.. The reason why there isn't much metals left on Athas is the Ancient "Nature Masters" civilization depleted the "easy finds" building that tower they used to suck the life out of the Sun (Turning it From Blue to Yellow) to try to stop some kind of problem in the Ocean (which they caused in th first place by messing with the "Lifeforce" of Athas itself)
The Pristine Tower is not made of metal, nor does it contain any besides the two metal rings that hold the steeple chamber's crystals and dark lens in a circle and aligned with the light shaft from the above cuppola. (Even then, there's the possibility Rajaat probably made these changes to the tower since we know he made changes on the original design - of which we do not know the configuration in the first place.)
Metal is nowadays scarce very probably from several factors. Few and poor mines from the start, then having those mines pretty much all mined out throughout the millennias, and to finish it off plenty of metal items having broken, rusted, or that simply were lost to the sands and sea.
As a side note, the Tower is probably made of nen, the rhulisti material ressembling coral, with the exception of the material still being alive (nen "dies" after it has finished growing) even to this day since the Tower's substance is said to regrow in case of damage. Also the material is of artifact-like hardness, I'd say.
Errr.. The reason why there isn't much metals left on Athas is the Ancient "Nature Masters" civilization depleted the "easy finds" building that tower they used to suck the life out of the Sun (Turning it From Blue to Yellow) to try to stop some kind of problem in the Ocean (which they caused in th first place by messing with the "Lifeforce" of Athas itself). Add to that that they were a Space Faring, Flying Cities,Submerged Cities type of "high tech" sociaty and they pretty much would have raped the envoroment of every resource by the time they caused their own "extinction"
:D
Hello again The WarOverlord. It's been a while - how are you doing?
The Pristine Tower is not made of metal, nor does it contain any besides the two metal rings that hold the steeple chamber's crystals and dark lens in a circle and aligned with the light shaft from the above cuppola. (Even then, there's the possibility Rajaat probably made these changes to the tower since we know he made changes on the original design - of which we do not know the configuration in the first place.)
Penn, Penn, Penn...
Don't discourage the man. When The WarOverlord is in town, we are never more than a post away from a full Athasian spelljamming armada. Let him run with it, I say... ;)
:D
Hello again The WarOverlord. It's been a while - how are you doing?
Penn, Penn, Penn...
Don't discourage the man. When The WarOverlord is in town, we are never more than a post away from a full Athasian spelljamming armada. Let him run with it, I say... ;)
Yea.... he's always got.... a unique and very unorthodox view of Athas. Definitely not the way I perceive Athas, and definitely not going to win me over any time soon, but it's a....unique.... perspective.
I don't think that the Halfling Nature Masters would have been so reliant on metal technology. It has been established that their technology has been based on manipulating life, not using / consuming metal.
Space faring, flying cities, and submerged cities were never part of the canon (either from TSR or Athas.org) so I dunno why you would chalk those things up to metal consumption either.
I do agree that much was probably lost during the wars of the Green Age.
I was just trying to give some input about science, gravity, and metal availability. Some campaigns want scientific explanations, others don't. Feel free to take or leave whatever input I have to add.
itf
i actually used that in a campaign long ago, probably the only part that made any sense...i was a noob DM...don't hate me.
but in the SJ campaign material it hinted that the Spelljammer ship was indeed a living thing, and animate ship, that over the years had different crews erect different structures on its back. in the deckplans for it in the source box there were areas that were "shaped" rooms and corridors that opened up to the constructed architecture. stranger things have happened... ;)
i actually used that in a campaign long ago, probably the only part that made any sense...i was a noob DM...don't hate me.
We love you, you beautiful noob! :D
Btw contact me on MSN please!!
Greyorm will otherwise have my neck very soon...not such a bad thing in itself but you see my head is attached to it! :P...two nature masters and a nature bender...
Only THREE? No hoard of feral cannibals?:hoppingma You cheat me!!!
There's some speculation that some of the remaining rhulisti (green age, lifeshaping halflings) might be living on one of them.
"That's no moon, its a space station!" {ducks from the barrage of fireballs sent his way}
Ahem, sorry, I couldn't resist :
but in the SJ campaign material it hinted that the Spelljammer ship was indeed a living thing, and animate ship, that over the years had different crews erect different structures on its back. in the deckplans for it in the source box there were areas that were "shaped" rooms and corridors that opened up to the constructed architecture. stranger things have happened... ;)
Heh, actually, that's better than what SJ canon about the Spelljammer turned out to be. The ultimate 'truth' of the Spelljammer was that it was a big refugee ship that accidentally destroyed a sphere long ago. Most people didn't care for its backstory and preferred it as a mystery.