What happens, when a defiler casts a spell on the same spot more than once?
In the 2e DS boxes it was possible, and the defiling radius increased by 1 yard. If the spell was higher level then anyone cast before, then it become a new base for radius, and the other spells give the extra yard to it.
What is the official rule about it in the 3e/3.5e DS?
If it works similar way than in 2e, is there any limit about how far can a defiler suck the energy for spells?
What if the defiler moves out from the defiled circle, and cast again, but the second defiling radius partly overlaps the first one? Obviously the defiler can't get energy from an already defiled area, so logically the defiling radius of the second spell should increase to compensate.
Question for bonus points: :D
Is it possible for a defiler to manipulate the shape of the defiled area? I already suggested two defiler feats about it on the board, do you think it is okay?
Sculpt Defiling
Feat type: defiler
Requirement: Concentration: 6 rank
When you defile, you can change the form of the defiled area from the standard circle. The new area has to be the same size in square feets (best to measure in 5x5 feet squares, and the caster rearranges the squares on the grid), has to be one continous area (its border could be drawn with one continous line), but can contain spots (empty squares). The new territory has to include the square the defiler stands at the time of casting. (It doesn't allow defiling from a distance.) If this feat is used the casting time is slowed by one step (similar way when PHB sorcerer using metamagic feat) due to the control needs to be extended by the defiler. This slowness stack with the casting time increase due to getting +1 caster level when defiling, and can be used in conjunction with that. This feat can be choosen as a wizard bonus feat at the appropriate levels for defilers.
Focused defiling
Requirement: Agonizing radius, Efficient Raze and Sculpt Defiling feats, Concentration: 12 rank
Feat type: defiler
When you defile you can choose one living being as source and snuff out all the energy needed for the spell from that being. The source have to be in line of sight of the defiler, and no farther than 20 feet. The source gain as many negative levels as the level of the spell cast (1 negative level in the case of 0th level spells). The DC to regain these negative levels is 10+level of the spell cast. If the source doesn't have enough HD or level to survive the energy gathering (has the same or less HD or level than negative level gained this way) it is dead, turned to ash, and the defiler loose the spell due to inadequate energy source which causes broken concentration. If the source survives the energy gathering it can be reused for further spells as source, but due to the stacking of negative levels the probability of loosing the spell is higher. The spell casted this way is considered as cast on an infertile terrain (the terrain modifier is zero). The feat Efficient Raze can not be used in conjunction with this feat. If this feat is used the casting time is slowed by one step (similar way when PHB sorcerer using metamagic feat) due to the control needs to be extended by the defiler. This slowness stack with the casting time increase due to getting +1 caster level when defiling, and can be used in conjunction with that. This feat can be choosen as a wizard bonus feat at the appropriate levels for defilers.
The second one is the first step toward dragin magic, to suck the life out from living beings.
And yesssss, I LOVE to beat the dead kank!:D
No comments at all? 52 views on the topic, but zero comment? C'mon guys, do I made you bored, or what? Gab, Flip, Jon, anybody?
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
I'm busy with exam papers. *pokes Flip*
*chew* And I. *chew* Am busy with Turkey.
I'll digest it a bit and get back to you sometime tomorrow.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
In the 2e DS boxes it was possible, and the defiling radius increased by 1 yard. If the spell was higher level then anyone cast before, then it become a new base for radius, and the other spells give the extra yard to it.
What is the official rule about it in the 3e/3.5e DS?
If it works similar way than in 2e, is there any limit about how far can a defiler suck the energy for spells?
Yes, it's possible to recast without moving. Has to be, otherwise we're forcing a particular class to be extremely mobile in order to make use of their basic class abilities.
Ugh. This actually is important, because there are penalties for getting caught in a defiler radius.
Not to mention that I've always had severe problems with the handling of this as a "Radius" ... adding yards to a radius actually means that you're pulling from more area as you go further out. Adding 1 yard to a radius is not the same as defiling a yard's worth of area.
I don't really have any good answers for you Nagy. Well, short of converting from 5' increment Radius to stating that defiling destroys a number of 5' areas ...
That is, instead of a 2nd level spell defiling a 10' raidus, it defiles two 5' squares. Kind of loses the idea of a Radius, but it fits 3e's fixation with a miniature grid much better. ugh.
That is, instead of a 2nd level spell defiling a 10' raidus, it defiles two 5' squares. Kind of loses the idea of a Radius, but it fits 3e's fixation with a miniature grid much better. ugh
It would actually end up being rather similar in the end anyhow. Consider always the square the defiler is standing on to be the first effected square, while the one directly in front of the defiler is the second. Use a left, up 2, right 2, and down 3 spiraling pattern from there. Another option could be to radiate outwards. Base square is as above (defiler's location), Then one square left, right, up, down, then corners for fill; next 2 left, 2 right, 2 up, 2 down, etc (more confusing so blah to me using it).
For those who don't use miniatures, it would still be perfectly viable to keep track of player positions in the usual verbal descriptive way.
Originally posted by flip
Yes, it's possible to recast without moving. Has to be, otherwise we're forcing a particular class to be extremely mobile in order to make use of their basic class abilities.
Ugh. This actually is important, because there are penalties for getting caught in a defiler radius.
Not to mention that I've always had severe problems with the handling of this as a "Radius" ... adding yards to a radius actually means that you're pulling from more area as you go further out. Adding 1 yard to a radius is not the same as defiling a yard's worth of area.
Exactly, that's why the question... But we can go with that the increase is an extra 5 ft radius instead of one yeard, so it fits the grid.
I don't really have any good answers for you Nagy.
Call me Nagypapi, please. Thanks.
Well, short of converting from 5' increment Radius to stating that defiling destroys a number of 5' areas ...
That is, instead of a 2nd level spell defiling a 10' raidus, it defiles two 5' squares. Kind of loses the idea of a Radius, but it fits 3e's fixation with a miniature grid much better. ugh.
Yeah, but it is much smaller area, isn't it? With the current rules if a wizard defiles, she razes in a 3x3 tile area with a 1st level spell (9 tiles), a 5x5 tile (25 tiles) with a 2nd level spell, etc. So the razed area is much bigger. If the area is so small, the Agonizing radius feat looses its usefulness.
Another thing is, that if the wizard razes a certain amount of squares, how she arrange the grids. From here comes my idea for Sculpt defiling feat above. Or maybe this kind of flexible arrangement can be a class feature of the wizards from the start.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
It would actually end up being rather similar in the end anyhow. Consider always the square the defiler is standing on to be the first effected square, while the one directly in front of the defiler is the second. Use a left, up 2, right 2, and down 3 spiraling pattern from there. Another option could be to radiate outwards. Base square is as above (defiler's location), Then one square left, right, up, down, then corners for fill; next 2 left, 2 right, 2 up, 2 down, etc (more confusing so blah to me using it).
For those who don't use miniatures, it would still be perfectly viable to keep track of player positions in the usual verbal descriptive way.
Hmm, if I understand correctly, than it looks something like this (the defiler is always in the middle):
1st level spell (5 grid):
x
xxx
x
2nd level spell (13 grid):
x
xxx
xxxxx
xxx
x
3rd level spell (25 grid):
x
xxx
xxxxx
xxxxxxx
xxxxx
xxx
x
etc. It looks good.
Than the question remains: what happens, if the defiler casts a 3rd level spell than a 2nd level spell on the same spot? And what if she casts a 2nd level spell than a 3rd level spell on the same spot? Logically the affected area should be the same, so some commutative mathematical algorythm is needed...
(defiler is the plus sign, dots are nothing, X are original radius, Os are added new radius; side note, it comes out on graph paper more squared than spherical, but hey)
------xxxxxx
------xxxxxo
------xx+xxo
------xxxxxo
------xxxxxo
------------oo
If defiler moves to a new spot, but still within the old ash radius, tossing out another 2nd lvl spell you have this trasposition (where x is still the old, O is the new, + is defiler but the = is the area where the radius would have been drawn from if it weren't already defiled land and hence is simply traced overlap):
-------xxxxxxxx
-------xxxxxxxx
-------xxxxxxxx
-------xx===xx
-------xx=+=xx
----------ooo
----------ooo
Continue to use the spiral overlap untilyou come to new ground that the defiler can reach out to.
Then to complicate matters we could start thinking about what happens if a preserver keeps on casting on the same spot. Can they ever draw so much energy from the area that taking any more would lead to it being defiled? Personally I run things that such is always a possibility but the preserver knows that such would be the affect and can always choose to change action and so not cast the spell. It can make combats with defilers interesting as all the wizards tend to keep moving around the battlefield when casting and also don't want to spellcast in areas that have been used previously. But I don't know if this changes the balance of the classes. Does the fact that the defiler pretty much has to move on after casting weaken the defiler too much or does the fact that the preserver can stay still for a while make them more powerful? And does the fact that they both have to move eventually make them weaker than the core wizard?
However ... basically, it's more trouble than it's worth, to try and keep track of how many times a particular square can be used to power a spell before it turns to ash ... It's an awful lot of bookkeeping, especially at higher levels. And that bookkeeping is going to slow down combat quite a bit.
I'm not saying the points you bring up are bad, or that your comments lead to bad ideas ... Just that, really, we're not dealing with any of that in the interest of keeping the game flowing.
You're free to develop variants that take all that into account, if you like.
Granted all the above sounds nice, but as Flip said, its more hassle than its worth. I use mini's and battlemats in my game, but only loosely. We tend to wing it with some ranges and area of effect stuff to speed the game along and the above proposal, while it does work, is also very tedius.
My idea:
First the defiled area is simply to show. The level of spell is 'n', the area is a diamond. The tops of the diamond are 'n' grid away from the defiler, and then we simply fill in the diagonals to get the additional area. As I showed before a 2nd level spell would affect the area like:
ooxoo
oxxxo
xxDxx
oxxxo
ooxoo
'o' is not defiled grid, 'x' is defiled grid, 'D' is the defiler.
Second: with the additional casting from the same spot the tops of the diamond moves further as many grid as the level of the new spell (again, fill in the diagonals after that). It means that casting a 5th level spell destroys the same area, as the casting of five 1st level spell, or a casting of a 2nd and a 3rd level spell, etc. The spell levels stack.
Comments?
Your first casting:
_ooxoo
_oxxxo
_xxdxx
_oxxxo
_ooxoo
You move one square west and cast the same spell again:
ooxdoo
oxddxo
xdDddx
oxddxo
ooxdoo
So basicly, an area defiled two times in the defilers reach become defiled.
What do you think?
Originally posted by Grummore
Nagypapi, I'm taking this idea into my game!
Feel free, just don't forget the copyright fees...
It' simple, efficient and easy to understand. Yet, I would add something more. Since the defiled area is "defiled" you no longer can cast on that square. You have to do at least a 5 foot move. What I would add, is when you actually put an "x" on another "x", it become a "d".
Your first casting:
_ooxoo
_oxxxo
_xxdxx
_oxxxo
_ooxoo
You move one square west and cast the same spell again:
ooxdoo
oxddxo
xdDddx
oxddxo
ooxdoo
So basicly, an area defiled two times in the defilers reach become defiled.
What do you think?
My opinion that a given area (grid square) can be defiled only once, as defiling does a very throughful job. No life remains in the area. Full stop. So if the defiler makes a 5' step before the second casting as in your example she is still standing on dead land. She has to reach out farther for energy.
I think if there is already defiled area in the radius we have to calculate how many area it takes, and this area has to be added elsewhere. But maybe it makes the system too slow... I have to re-think it, this is a weak point.
-full compatibility on the official rules (as this is intended a suggestion for this missing topic in the rulebook)
-easy and quick math for all three cases: defiling once, defiling more on the same spot, defiling when the affected area overlaps with already defiled area.
-easy presentability on a grid map
I think that if you've defiled a spot then that's it, it's defiled so you can't get any more out of it. Have any spell have a radius of required defiling based on it's level, centred on the square under the defiler (you can always have feats to allow defiling from further away). If the maximum area a defiler can draw from is determined by their maximum castable level of spell and you say that any defiled area can't be drawn from so you'd have to extend the radius up to the caster's maximum then to be honest it's not going to be complicated. (Honest, it's just difficult to explain it here and now but the idea is fairly simple!!) Leads to wizards being a lot more mobile than in other D&D settings which is fun.
In the origianl 'ever expanding radius' method, a simple way to explain it is this: the defiler's ash radius can continue to grow up to his maximum line of sight (which is pretty darn far and likely not to be exceeded even by a master defiler who just lost his glasses). The rational for why the actual square footage becomes greater is that, as the defiler draws energy from further away, some of the energy dissipates as it travels to the defiler. This is why, after casting a few spells on the same spot, even a 1st lvl spell defiles the equivalent in sq. ft. as a 9th lvl spell. So much energy is lost so quickly. Does the defiler care? Nope, as long as he can fuel that particular spell.
While I like the realism of the above systems, they're just too clunky in play. I'm all for a hard and fast system that makes defiling a bit more realistic (and makes the few hundred I've chunked out in mini's and mats, not to mention the hundreds of dry erase markers, a bit more worth while), but it seems to me that it simply can't be done quickly enough.
The rational for why the actual square footage becomes greater is that, as the defiler draws energy from further away, some of the energy dissipates as it travels to the defiler. This is why, after casting a few spells on the same spot, even a 1st lvl spell defiles the equivalent in sq. ft. as a 9th lvl spell. So much energy is lost so quickly. Does the defiler care? Nope, as long as he can fuel that particular spell.
I like this, but I have to agree with Wintergreen about the line of sight aspect. It becomes a problem. A Blindness spell later and the defiler can't cast any spells if I'm reading you right, Mach. Remove the line of sight aspect, and you have a viable explanation for the existing official mechanic. Why does a wizard need to see where he gathers energy, can't he feel it?
For similar reason should be line of sight removed from the equation. It would hamper the wizard such way which is not allowed by the holy balance rules.
I have a rule idea, altough it needs a bit modification to the official rules:
-if the spell level is 'n', than it defiles (n+1)x(n+1) number of grid (5'x5' square). So zero level spells defiles one square, 1st level spells defile 4, 2nd 9, etc. 9th level spells defiles 100 grid. (This is the modification to the rulebook, as using this instead of the 5' radius/level)
-The default shape is a square (2x2 for first level spell, 3x3 for 2nd level spells, etc. In case of zero level spells the affected square is the one the defiler stands in). The defiler has to stand in the center field if the side is odd-numbered grid (like 3x3, 5x5), or in one of the 4 center grids, if the side is even numbered grids (2x2, 4x4, etc.) Why using square shape instead of diamond? It's much more easy to handle.
-the defiler can't use a given grid twice for defiling, she always drains the energy from a new one. Due to balance reasons we can't put a limit how far the defiler can suck the energy from. It would make the class weaker, as it can happen that she can't use her full load of spell standing on a given spot for the whole day, and this is not acceptable balancewise. Only some vague limit can be included, like the line of sight, but it also lost its sense in underground situations. So basicaly if the defiler wants to cast a spell, there is sufficient life in the vicinity, and it has no effect on the others on nearby (e.g. everybody stands on an already defiled spot) than she can cast the spell without problem.
The next question to decide is how we allow the defiler to change the form of the defiled area. Can she does it by default, or does she need a feat for it (Scuplt Defiling, see above).
Why does a wizard need to see where he gathers energy, can't he feel it?
Okay, you got me. That was just a lame and underthought . . . . thought. Or something. It happens. See why I don't do mechanics
You just pick an square from where to draw the energy from, starting from where you are to... say 3 squares away in any direction.
Since characters "suffer" from being in that area, add a -1 to initative for every square away from yours. Squares defiled cannot be used again, and that should be it (for the core at least).
Yes, our defiler will have to move eventually, but then, it has its benefits and disadvanages.
As it has already been said, miniatures are on the rise, and using squares is actually really easy to imagine what is actually happening (no, I don't use miniatures, but still...).
I think that for the core, squares are better than a radius, and that the ideas discussed over here would be really good for a preservers & defilers supplement ;)
Edo.
Is having to move to fertile areas really a hindrance for a wizard. After all, they can cast and have a move action so it doesn't take anything from them?
In people's games, how much do wizards move around as opposed to standing in one spot and blasting out spells? I'm not sure if the lack of a 'Cast on the Run' feat is because mages are expected to stay still in fights or that due to big ranges, etc it really doesn't matter where a mage casts from. What do people think?
I don't know about you, but I'd rather just work with the whole "defiler pulls from a wider and wider area because life-energy dissappates/escapes into the gray/whatever along the way." Drop the line-of-site bit: it draws in a circle from around the defiler. LOS has nothing to do with it. No reason to overcomplicate it in any direction.
If you're really **** about this sort of thing (or the PCs are really ragging you about it), give them this formula:
http://www.mines.edu/students/d/dzickefo/MCircle.htm
It even explains it. As for me, I'll just stick with the ever-increasing-area phenom. Of course, if I'm the minority, so be it: wouldn't be the first time.
"As for me, I'll just stick with the ever-increasing-area phenom."
Well I'm all for magic and story elements being superior to scientific realism in D&D but there's got to be some limits. An ever-increasing area? So even a 1st level defiler could just sit down and start casting spells from the same spot every day and eventually defile her entire village/city/region/continent....
There's got to be a limit to how far a defiler can draw from. The question is, is it small enough that it would come into play in a combat or not? Why not go with the maximum a defiler can draw from (without any feats etc) is the radius for the maximum spell level they can cast. That uses a limit that's already present for the character. Have that area as a radius of 5' per level around the caster (or calculate it in squares if you want). The only extra bookkeeping is noting which areas are defiled, which would be part of your description of the scene anyway. Seems pretty simple to me ;)
Of course I've not seen the latest Dragon article so I don't know if that tries to deal with this factor. Could be we're talking over a problem that's already been sorted out.
Originally posted by Wintergreen
An ever-increasing area? So even a 1st level defiler could just sit down and start casting spells from the same spot every day and eventually defile her entire village/city/region/continent....
There's got to be a limit to how far a defiler can draw from.
I think that parameter comes into play only if the defiler settles down, not in combat. For balance reasons you can't deny the defilers for casting spells with the reason that life source is too far. And if even you do, you should stop the preservers as well, as they also using life as energy sources.
Things should apply to all situations. A rule on how something works and the parameters surely can't just apply in combat surely!
"For balance reasons you can't deny the defilers for casting spells with the reason that life source is too far. And if even you do, you should stop the preservers as well, as they also using life as energy sources."
I'm all for all restrictions on defilers being applied to preservers too. The topic was focussed on defiling but I've been assuming that energy gathering limits apply to preservers who also have just as visible an energy gathering area - it's just less ahrsh on the plants. (I did make some comments on there being a limit to how many times a preserver could cast on the same spot before it became defiling in an earlier post.)
But why is saying the life energy is too far away upsetting the game balance? We're already saying to a spellcaster that high levels spells are too complex for them to cast at low levels, etc. There are limits to how things work. I don't see this being an unbalancing limitation on spellcasters. Sure in an enclosed space it could quickly become a limit, but as enclosed spaces tend to ahve limited plant life and the setting limitation is that an arcane spell requires plant life energy then that hardly seems to upset the balance. (Okay I don't want to get into another argument about what is game balance as that never seems to come to a satisfactory explanation but I just can't see your reasoning for saying that this would upset game baalnce. Care to explain?)
ciaran
Originally posted by Wintergreen
"I think that parameter comes into play only if the defiler settles down, not in combat. "
Things should apply to all situations. A rule on how something works and the parameters surely can't just apply in combat surely!
"For balance reasons you can't deny the defilers for casting spells with the reason that life source is too far. And if even you do, you should stop the preservers as well, as they also using life as energy sources."
I'm all for all restrictions on defilers being applied to preservers too. The topic was focussed on defiling but I've been assuming that energy gathering limits apply to preservers who also have just as visible an energy gathering area - it's just less ahrsh on the plants. (I did make some comments on there being a limit to how many times a preserver could cast on the same spot before it became defiling in an earlier post.)
I agree with your position. Besides, we could include features to the preserver & defiler class to overcome this settings "self imposed" limitation on spellcasting to keep balance. For example, we could add a feature for say... a 10th level wizard that allows him to extend his "energy gathering range" for a limited penalty, say a temporary 1 point drain on WIS (1 minute duration).
Basically you drain your willpower to extend your gathering radius. This way, "dungeon crawls" would not severely limit wizards, same thing for fights against BBEGs, as you could still cast most of your spells against him this way for a limited penalty.
Edo.
Originally posted by Wintergreen
Things should apply to all situations. A rule on how something works and the parameters surely can't just apply in combat surely!
What I'm trying to say here: do we really need a rule for that? See below later the explanation.
But why is saying the life energy is too far away upsetting the game balance?
Well, I made wrong wording here, sorry. The "life source is too far away" error message is not acceptable due to the cross-compatibility of the system. Why?
1) If we put such restriction on defilers, we have to put it on preservers, too, as we agreed.
2) But based on the WotC guidelines preserver should be equal to PHB wizard. So we can't put such restriction.
My proposition is the same as somebody wrote here already: we should allow the wizard (be it preserver or defiler) to cast her daily allotment of spells on the same spot. And it means a certain area to be used/defiled, and its maximum size is essentially dependant on level (through the number of spells can be cast parameter).
With this in writing we are almost at the same spot as if we don't put a rule for that, and simply don't take care of that. As the wizard can cast if she still has a spell memorized. The only situation when this two can be different if the wizard somehow can cast more spells as her normal daily allotment. This is a rare situation indeed, but in fantasy everything can happen, so that's why better to have it said and written.
I think there is no need for something more complicated rule regarding this, as it would slow down the system too much.
So what I'm proposing is thta the wizard can be a balanced class by having it that preservers have the advantage of being able to cast multiple times from a spot but the disadvantage of not having the defiler pain effect and there being some limit to how many times they can cast from the same spot whereas defilers have the advantage of the defiling pain effect but the disadvantage of not being able to cast multiple times from the same spot. That seems to me to have the two variant wizards being internally balanced and balanced with each other while still being balanced against other classes.
Some people seem to think calculating the energy gathering radius is an added complication but you're already doing it to determine who is affected by the defiling and for the visual description of the energy being gathered by defiler or preserver. If you don't have plant life energy gathering happening with the wizards then you've not got dark sun wizards, they're just standard wizards.
So overall, yes the issue of defiling from the same spot is a flavour one, but it's flavour essential to the setting and deserving of having a rule to reflect it, particularly when the rule is so simple to apply and really what I would expect is being used whenever somebody describes an athasian wizard spellcasting.
Has never existed. It's never been the case that, suddenly, a defilier through the rules suddenly cannot cast a spell because he's cast too many spells in the same area.
And yet, remarkably, they managed to convey the very flavor that you now think dictates a need for complicating the rules with even more bean counting.
However, I still don't see where the extra bean counting for a difficult rule comments apply. I've not suggested any complicated rule and what I keep on saying is that all the mechanics for what I'm suggesting are already being done - ie working out the area of energy gathering.
You just have to add in a statement that a defiled area is an area with no energy (as it's not explicitly said) and so you can't draw any energy to spell cast from it.
Done. Let me know what's the complicated bit with lots of numbers involved.
You just have to add in a statement that a defiled area is an area with no energy (as it's not explicitly said) and so you can't draw any energy to spell cast from it.
No numbers involved, but it creates an (IMO needless) element that can easily be misunderstood. Questions such as "what if a wall blocks the defiling radius" might arise. People might assume defilers cannot gather energy outside a given enclosed area on a map for example. The principle of Ockham's Razor applies.
For example, the PCs are on the other side of a wall when the defiler casts some preparation spells. Are they affected by her defiling (and so warned that she is nearby)?
The three-dimensional aspect of defiling is a nice thought. Most of the time it doesn't get mentioned much as all the plants are on the ground but it could 'crop' up.
Originally posted by Wintergreen
The three-dimensional aspect of defiling is a nice thought. Most of the time it doesn't get mentioned much as all the plants are on the ground but it could 'crop' up.
I need a signature smiting technique.
That was horrid.
It has come up from time to time -- remember Sadira drawing from the celing beneath Tyr?
Of course, even that doesn't mean it was three dimensional, because she could have just pointed at the ceiling ... Which still doesn't necessarily mean "not" three-demensional ... just not sphereical. I can see it being kind of cone-ish. Sides of varying steepness ... How relevant for day-to-day is a question...
Originally posted by Wintergreen
I do think that if wizards (of either stripe) can freely cast spells from the same spot then it robs them of some of their setting flavour.
But if you take the magic away from the wizards for whatever reason you technicaly kill the class. Wizards has nothing but magic, if you take it from them then nothing remains.
It's okay to pose some limitations on them, and that's what we tried here with finding a way to define how much can a defiler cast on the same spot. But these limitations should still keep the class playable. As somebody already wrote here: if the defilers can't cast on the same spot more than once they have to continously moving in combat. A tremendous hindrace against psions and clerics!
So a simple wall doesn't block it, it goes through it, so people on the other side is affected by defiling.
This simple rule served us well in the old times, and I see no reason why it can't be in effect in 3.5 e as well.
So if a defiler steps out of his circle of ash and then steps back into it then the result should be the same as if he stayed there. I'd even go as far to say, that if a defiler stands in someone else's circle of ash and casts a spell the sresults would be the same as it were his own.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Regarding what blocks energy gathering: the simplest rule is to say that everything that blocks the usage of maigic itself. Antimagic field, for example.
I like the AMF mechanic. Do you think that defiling could be blocked by certain materials?
ciaran
So are you saying that a wizard is just a spellcasting machine. that the 1st level wizard is just extra baggage until he casts his few spells and then is even more of a waste of space? You make it sound like a wizard is just a wand on legs.
Seriously, there's a lot more to a wizard character than casting spells. Knowledge skills, familiar, creative thinking. And that is even more the case on Dark Sun where the social stigma of spellcasting means the wizard can be pretty reluctant to cast spells. I've played and seen played wizard characters who didn't cast any spells for a number of sessions yet they were among the most useful and active party members. Any character can be in a situation where they temporarily can't use their most powerful abilities and still be useful.
Okay, some arguments for my take on this:
Even if it is made the case that defilers can't cast in defiled areas they can still move out of the area. And having to almost constantly move around in combat doesn't seem to put them at a disadvantage compared to other spell casters. After all, the majority of combat spells are one action casting times so you can cast and move quite freely. In fact, most 3rd ed combats I've seen the spellcasters tend to be fairly mobile so they can get line of sight and aren't easy targets for melee attacks.
Overall, the whole idea is a bit of flavour that makes life a little bit more difficult in some situations but makes explicit the damage that arcane spellcasting is doing to Athas in that it has an immediate effect on the suroundings and affects the wizard himself. If wizards can just keep on casting from defiled areas then what's the big deal about defiling. 'So it looks ashen. It's not like there was a huge amount of plant life around anyway' becomes the attitude.
I'm proposing that spellcasters can't draw energy from a defiled area because a defiled area means an area with no more energy. And I'm saying that there has to be a limit to how far wizards can draw energy from as it seems wrong to have an infinite range. It does add a mechanic that isn't there in the rules at present but I don't think it needs to be complicated or slowing things down as it actually clarifies things that were being used anyway (such as the defiler radius).
If anybody ahs seen the defiler article in the latest dragon, can they say if it covers any of what we've been discussing here?
Originally posted by ciaran00
I like the AMF mechanic. Do you think that defiling could be blocked by certain materials?
ciaran
Why not? Everything can happen in a fantasy. It would be a nice thing to describe if we will have a 3.5e DS Defilers and Preservers supplement book.
But again logicaly thinking: if this effect/material/whatever blocks the life force draining mechanism it affects preservers as well.
The way I read this thread it's a discussion about the issue and various suggestions. Somebody has already said that it's an issue they hadn't given any thought to before now. I didn't think any firm and definite answers had been given by anybody (whether the 'we' you mention is the members of this board, athas.org or whatever) and even if a binding decision has been made there may still be some wishing to discuss options.
As for "And we didn't say that defiler drains energy form an already defiled area. She just standing in one, but she drains the energy from farther. "
Well that's why I mentioned the range limit of energy gathering. If you accept that a wizard can't draw energy from a defiled area (which it sounds like you do) then you have to think about the range limit for preservers and defilers.
Originally posted by Wintergreen
Hi Nagypapi.
The way I read this thread it's a discussion about the issue and various suggestions. Somebody has already said that it's an issue they hadn't given any thought to before now. I didn't think any firm and definite answers had been given by anybody (whether the 'we' you mention is the members of this board, athas.org or whatever) and even if a binding decision has been made there may still be some wishing to discuss options.
It's true that we (the contributors to this thread) just brainstorming about the issue, and if we find a good answer than hopefully athas.org will take our humble results into the official document. But I didn't see any active opinion against the currently final version we had, so I assume it's OK and accepted by the readers until now.
As for "And we didn't say that defiler drains energy form an already defiled area. She just standing in one, but she drains the energy from farther. "
Well that's why I mentioned the range limit of energy gathering. If you accept that a wizard can't draw energy from a defiled area (which it sounds like you do) then you have to think about the range limit for preservers and defilers.
Yes, and we did. To clarify things this is the summary of what we have so far:
-defilers destroys in a 5' radius/spell level area (by the official conversion)
-if the defiler casts multiple spells on the same spot the defiled area increases as the defiler draws energy from the closest possible (still not defiled) area. The increase is again a 5' radius/spell level. (Example: casting a 3rd level spell defiles a 15' radius area around the defiler. If she casts a 2nd level spell on the same spot again, the total defiled radius grows 25')
-if the defiler has an already defiled area in her defiling radius her defiling radius is altered. If we using 5'x5' grids than -logically- we should count how many grid in her defiling radius is unusable (alredy defiled), and place these grids as an attchment to her defiling radius. The problem is that this can slow the play down, so maybe some compromise would be good here. And also this calucalation is only neccessary if there is affected creatures (party memebrs and NPCs/monsters) in the area.
-due to balance reason (and we have to be strict here if we have these ramblings as part of the official rules) we can't put a too restrictive rule on how far a wizard can gain energy. We can't force the wizards to "move in combat or you can't cast" situations. But we have to have something. So the best idea so far is that the maximum range the wizards can gain energy is 5' of the total spell level they have for a day. Ie if she has 5 1st level, 3 second level and two 3rd level spell than she has 17 spell level, so the farthest she can draw energy is 17x5'=85'.
It also means that a defiler standing on the same spot can cast her full daily allotment of spells. If the wizard from the above example doesn't move, and starts defiling blasting all the spells she has for the day she would reduce exactly the 85' radius area to ash. If there are defiled spots in these area, than she will be in trouble, as she won't be able to use her full power unless she moves out of the region to get a suitable big and life-bearing area within 85' to her.
So comments and ideas to that above is gladly welcome.
And there is one more tought to this: logically preservers gather energy from a bigger area than defilers by default, as they take care not to ruin the environment. Logically it would mean that if a wizard uses the preserving energy gathering she is able to reach farther. Should we think about it as well, or is this not so important?
Originally posted by Wintergreen
So are you saying that a wizard is just a spellcasting machine. that the 1st level wizard is just extra baggage until he casts his few spells and then is even more of a waste of space? You make it sound like a wizard is just a wand on legs.
I don't see it that way, but 3.5e is a very gamist system. The whole CR system supposes that characters has a certain power in abilities, magic items, etc. If we remove potential than the whole system should be re-calculated and re-considered. Of course it is not imposible, DMs doing it all the time, but it's easy to make mistakes, especially if somebody is a beginner. That's which we should think about a bit as well.
It also means that a defiler standing on the same spot can cast her full daily allotment of spells
This 'mechanic' may actually, for those who wish to use it, may actually provide a rational for why defilers don't band up together like preservers do. A team of defilers all standing around together lobbing mana would quickly fill drain out the region beyond their ability to draw energy. Just a thought.
I guess having the range be determined by the number of spells the wizard can cast is a nice way to get round the problem of having to move to cast. (Though I'm not convinced that sometimes having to move is unbalancing)
But does it mean that specialist wizards have a greater range than other wizards? (I know in 2nd ed you couldn't have specialised wizards on Athas but I assume 3rd ed does allow them.) What about if the wizard has a pearl of power or two? Would they extend the gathering range as well? [Don't know if magic items that increase spellcasting capacity are real issues but I can see them coming up if we don't decide on a ruling]
Nagayapi said that the mechanic is:
"-if the defiler casts multiple spells on the same spot the defiled area increases as the defiler draws energy from the closest possible (still not defiled) area. The increase is again a 5' radius/spell level. (Example: casting a 3rd level spell defiles a 15' radius area around the defiler. If she casts a 2nd level spell on the same spot again, the total defiled radius grows 25')
-if the defiler has an already defiled area in her defiling radius her defiling radius is altered. If we using 5'x5' grids than -logically- we should count how many grid in her defiling radius is unusable (alredy defiled), and place these grids as an attchment to her defiling radius. The problem is that this can slow the play down, so maybe some compromise would be good here. And also this calucalation is only neccessary if there is affected creatures (party members and NPCs/monsters) in the area."
Well speaking for me I'm happy about that so I want to know if that is official/going to be official and all agreed upon or is it still up for discussion?
(One minor question, you say the calculation is only necessary if somebody is in the area but how do you know they are in the area without doing the calculation?)
Gathering range for preservers. Making it bigger than the defiler's range isn't the only way it could be. Going by the descriptions in Preservers & Defilers (and some of the Prism Pentad) then preservers take energy to power their spell but give some back whereas defilers gather as much in as they can as quickly as they can. So rather than having a greater range it could just be that the preserver has the same range but draws the energy out slower and gives some back to the plants and that is why they aren't destroyed. That way we can keep the same rule (whatever we decided on) to determine gathering radius for both defilers and preservers. Seems a logical way to rule it to me.
Oh and thanks for putting up with me asking questions (and seeing that the questions aren't criticisms). It helps me work out how I'm running things and lets me see the logic of other people's ideas which is always interesting.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
This 'mechanic' may actually, for those who wish to use it, may actually provide a rational for why defilers don't band up together like preservers do. A team of defilers all standing around together lobbing mana would quickly fill drain out the region beyond their ability to draw energy. Just a thought.
Good point, Mach, and I think it's absolutely fitting, as defilers really a lonely bunch.
To think it further it also means that defilers should be careful with magical research. Just logically thinking magical research should involve "testing", casting the spell and see what happens. And it causes defiler destruction. So if a defiler wants to do research, she should think about it if she doesn't want to reduce her home base into an ashland. She has to go to an appropriate area to do the research (possibly far away), or she has to amass sufficient life force. Later can be accomplished for example through the 'Orb of power' and similar spells written in Defilers and Preservers.
Hmm, classical DSadventure idea came in my mind: a defiler starts to collect obsidian orbs, than collects slaves to fuel the orbs to have enough life force for the research. The players can be involved in this several way, even one of them can be the defiler... Or they are tricked to collect these for the defiler, and when they realise what is the purpose of all this it's too late...
Originally posted by Wintergreen
I think the main thing here is that we are talking about a limit to how far a wizard can gather energy which means that there will be times when they are going to have to move to cast. What that range limit is, we can discuss and come up with game mechanic numbers for but I wasn't sure that it had been officially accepted that there be some limit as there is nothing explicitly mentioned about such or not being able to draw energy from defiled areas in the current rules.
Yes, this topic is not covered in the official document, but I think it is quite important and relevant part of the magic system. That's why I started this thread. I hope if we come up with something good for this, we can ask athas.org team to include it into the official document, or at least has a place for it in the 3.5e DS version of the Defilers and Preservers. A humble contribution to their great work.
I guess having the range be determined by the number of spells the wizard can cast is a nice way to get round the problem of having to move to cast. (Though I'm not convinced that sometimes having to move is unbalancing)
The tricky part of it is the 'sometimes' parameter.
As it is D&D not just d20 system, the Athasian defilers and preservers should be in par with normal PHB wizards. If we got them move too much, it's a hindrace for the Athasian wizards, and therefore a balance issue. Not to mention underground adventures or adventures in any cramped space (dungeon, castle corridors and rooms, caves, tunnels -and these are very often places for adventure!), where the movement possibilities are quite restricted.But does it mean that specialist wizards have a greater range than other wizards? (I know in 2nd ed you couldn't have specialised wizards on Athas but I assume 3rd ed does allow them.) What about if the wizard has a pearl of power or two? Would they extend the gathering range as well? [Don't know if magic items that increase spellcasting capacity are real issues but I can see them coming up if we don't decide on a ruling]
I think specialist wizards can have a greater range. Having specialised in a certain school of magic on Athas could mean that the energy gathering method goes better for these spells as well. Levelling up in wizard means generally more spells and increasing range for defiling. Having specialisation means more spells (with restriction regarding school, but more spells nevertheless) and increased range for defiling. The specialist not achieving something impossible, just achiveing it a bit earlier (in levels).
But I would say no on magic items for increased defiling range. They are not internal abilities (like the specialisation), so logically I wouldn't allow the increase for them. (Of course exceptions are possible, especially in the case of strong defiler/dragon magic items like a life-sucking obsidian orb.) The magic items would be the point where the difference between the 'defiler can cast as many spells as she has on the same spot' and the 'defiler can cast her normal dailly allotment of spells on the same spot' expressions come into the picture -as the latest doesn't allow the magic-item-prowided boosts to be used fully.
Nagypapi said that the mechanic is:
"-if the defiler casts multiple spells on the same spot the defiled area increases as the defiler draws energy from the closest possible (still not defiled) area. The increase is again a 5' radius/spell level. (Example: casting a 3rd level spell defiles a 15' radius area around the defiler. If she casts a 2nd level spell on the same spot again, the total defiled radius grows 25')
-if the defiler has an already defiled area in her defiling radius her defiling radius is altered. If we using 5'x5' grids than -logically- we should count how many grid in her defiling radius is unusable (alredy defiled), and place these grids as an attchment to her defiling radius. The problem is that this can slow the play down, so maybe some compromise would be good here. And also this calucalation is only neccessary if there is affected creatures (party members and NPCs/monsters) in the area."
Well speaking for me I'm happy about that so I want to know if that is official/going to be official and all agreed upon or is it still up for discussion?
(One minor question, you say the calculation is only necessary if somebody is in the area but how do you know they are in the area without doing the calculation?)
It's still under discussion but as I wrote it above, my hope is that it goes into official on some glorious day.
With the calculation is not neccessary I thought about situations where the possibly affected parties are seeably too far away at the first glance (i.e. 200 feets or so), or all of them standing in an already defiled area, so they are out of the way of a second defiling as the defiler has to suck life from elsewhere.
Gathering range for preservers. Making it bigger than the defiler's range isn't the only way it could be. Going by the descriptions in Preservers & Defilers (and some of the Prism Pentad) then preservers take energy to power their spell but give some back whereas defilers gather as much in as they can as quickly as they can. So rather than having a greater range it could just be that the preserver has the same range but draws the energy out slower and gives some back to the plants and that is why they aren't destroyed. That way we can keep the same rule (whatever we decided on) to determine gathering radius for both defilers and preservers. Seems a logical way to rule it to me.
As I see a given area (i.e. a 5'x5' grid) can give only a certain quantity of energy. If you suck it out it will finally turn to ash, doesn't matter you suck it out slowly or quickly. If you suck it out but give a part of it back (or just take a little) you don't have enough energy to cast the spell. You need bigger are to collect the neccessary energy. That's what preservers do.
Analogy again:
you have several glass of water before you, and you are thirsty, wanna drink a glass of water (let's say 3 dl). You can drink one glass of water fully (defiling) or taking a sip from every glass until you have the 3 dl water in your belly (preserving). Forget hygiene... I always read things that preservers had learnt to be more efficient with the energy they do gather so they gather from the same area as defilers but are able to give some back so that plants aren't destroyed. That efficiency plus no need to feed an addiction to the rush of defiling energy makes preservers what they are rather than an extended range. Otherwise you seem to want preservers to have a bonus over defilers of having a greater range. And if that's the case, couldn't a wizard then use their greater energy gathering range they'd got from learning preserver techniques to then defile with a greater range?
Gotta agree with you on seeing this stuff as an important and relevant part of the magic system - wouldn't have been writing so much about it if I didn't so yeah hopefully you can get it included in the official document.
Originally posted by Wintergreen
Problem with the analogy: To be faithful to what Preservers are supposed to do you'd have to be spitting some of the water back into the glass so as to preserve having some water in the glass.
I always read things that preservers had learnt to be more efficient with the energy they do gather so they gather from the same area as defilers but are able to give some back so that plants aren't destroyed. That efficiency plus no need to feed an addiction to the rush of defiling energy makes preservers what they are rather than an extended range.
Well, honestly speaking I think the "get the energy from the plants in the form of lightning and give it back" is a wrong description in the Defilers and Preservers. Why?
-if you draw the energy, the plant becomes dead. You give the energy back on vain, the plant won't turn into whole again. So it is a logical frogjump.
-if the preservers' energy gathering method (energy visibly drawn to the wizard) is as visible as the defilers', then how can they hide it? Simple: if you see the energy in the air, you know it's an arcane casting. You don't need the further proof of the ash. Again a logical frogjump, not to mention the effect of this on the gaming system, as arcane spellcasting is impossible to hide no matter it's preserving or defiling.
So in my mind the method of casting doesn't involve visible lightnings, and preservers only take as much as they need, not take all the energy and give back some.
Regarding efficiency: I'm quite sure that during the centuries of magic the casting efficiency was perfected as much as possible. It's 100%, or as close to it as possible. You can't increase efficiency more. You can increase the power of the spell, but it needs metamagic feats, which in turn needs higher spell slots, which in turn needs more energy (larger defiled area). If there would be a way to use the energy more efficient without any further trick (metamagic feat) it would be done that way. And it's also possible, that there is a more efficient way, but the todays' wizards don't know it. Maybe it would need Rajaat and other 500 years of experiment to find it. But it doesnt' matter: the point is that the day-to-day wizard depends on the amount of energy present only, efficiency is a stationary factor.
It's only my point of view on things, but I found this the most logical until today, supported by a lot of things, opported by a very few, mostly fancy descriptions and flavour texts.
Otherwise you seem to want preservers to have a bonus over defilers of having a greater range. And if that's the case, couldn't a wizard then use their greater energy gathering range they'd got from learning preserver techniques to then defile with a greater range?
Based on what I wrote above I think it's again logical that preservers use a bigger area for gathering energy. And even if it is not a slower process than defiling (as preserving and defiling in itself doesn't modify the casting time) it's mentally more taxing to do it a controlled way. Defilers are lazy to do that, or lost the necessary self-control to do that due to addiction.
My personal opinion is that I don't agree with the rule in the rulebook the defiler loose preserving ability outright as it is again not logical. A Will save (can be very difficult of course) is more appropriate IMHO, as logically preserving is not impossible for a defiler, just very hard to force herself to do. But it's just a side remark, my eyes are always on the official athas.org version. ;)
Gotta agree with you on seeing this stuff as an important and relevant part of the magic system - wouldn't have been writing so much about it if I didn't so yeah hopefully you can get it included in the official document.
We are on it, man, we are on it... ;)
-if you draw the energy, the plant becomes dead. You give the energy back on vain, the plant won't turn into whole again. So it is a logical frogjump.
If the first sentence were true, then a preserver drawing upon a larger area would simply kill the entire area of plantlife as well.
Instead, I think a consistent explanation of preserving can consist of primarily drawing much less energy from the plant (leaving it alive) and then if the preserver still has more energy than he needs, returning it to the plant (which is alive and therefore can recieve the influx of energy).
Though this position doesn't resolve the question of whether the preserver can draw from the same radius, or needs a larger radius, I think the assumptions you have used to show that the preserver cannot draw from the same radius is flawed (ie, by assuming drawing energy kills the plant, you destroy your own argument that the preserver can preserve at all).
Of course, back to the issue of same radius to larger radius -- it comes down to an opinion (I don't believe 2e or flavor comes down equivocally on this) on how much minimum energy a spell requires and how much minimum energy a plant needs to survive, which at this point are both arbitrary.
So I see people could come down on both sides of the issue.
For me, it's the preserver draws upon the same radius for simplicity's sake.
Initially I based everything on a spherical volume. But after some thinking decided that, because of the nature of most places where a wizard will be collecting energy, the increase will be more of an area based effect.
So simply
radius of new area = 5 * sqrt((sl1)^2 + (sl2)^2 + .......)
ie
1. square the spell levels
2. add them together
3. find the square root of that
4. multiply by five.
You will find the radius does not increase significantly.
two 9th level spells increases from 45' to 64' and three 9th level spells brings that up to 78'. At the same time 27 (9*3) 1st level spells has a radius of 26'.
Three 1st level spells brings it out to 8.5' but a first and a 2nd is about 11'
Not that usefull in game play, too long to work out and the radius' (sp) are not in nice 5' increments.
But interesting to show how little energy the lower level spells need verses the higher level ones.
Example 1: Lightning bolt defiles a radius of 15 feet. If our defiler casts any other equal or lower level spell within that circle, the radius expands another 5 feet for each spell.
Example 2: Lightning bolt defiles a radius of 15 feet. Our defiler then casts chain lightning (6th level spell) in the same spot. We use the 30 ft. radius of chain lightning as the base, and add 5 ft. for the lightning bolt for a total of 35 ft. defiled around the caster.
If you wanna get more complicated than that by adding in terrain modifiers etc., be my guest. But this is all I'm gonna do. You don't have to worry about any ranges for pulling the energy in or shaping the defiling area into diamonds/trapezoids/rhombuses, and its easy to use with miniatures. Plus you could even screw over preservers by killing all the land around their character, thus weakening their spells. A second defiler using defiled territory would simply expand the radius as mentioned above.
When we get lost... let's return to simplicity.
Originally posted by elitesix
If the first sentence were true, then a preserver drawing upon a larger area would simply kill the entire area of plantlife as well.
Instead, I think a consistent explanation of preserving can consist of primarily drawing much less energy from the plant (leaving it alive) and then if the preserver still has more energy than he needs, returning it to the plant (which is alive and therefore can recieve the influx of energy).
I'm with you on this one, only my wording was bad. What I intended to say: draining ALL energy killing the plant. Of course it's possible to drain a little, with no harm to the plant, that's what preservers do.
However I think that 'returning energy' is a thing we should forget. Things become more simply than. As I see preservers don't take more energy than needed, so there is no surplus that they can return. And obviously defilers never return energy.
Though this position doesn't resolve the question of whether the preserver can draw from the same radius, or needs a larger radius, I think the assumptions you have used to show that the preserver cannot draw from the same radius is flawed (ie, by assuming drawing energy kills the plant, you destroy your own argument that the preserver can preserve at all).
Of course, back to the issue of same radius to larger radius -- it comes down to an opinion (I don't believe 2e or flavor comes down equivocally on this) on how much minimum energy a spell requires and how much minimum energy a plant needs to survive, which at this point are both arbitrary.
So I see people could come down on both sides of the issue.
For me, it's the preserver draws upon the same radius for simplicity's sake.
Logically thinking preservers have to use bigger area than defilers to collect the energy. Casting a spell needs a certain amount of energy. If you preserve, gather energy in small pieces, just take little from every plant you can't amass the same volume of energy from the same area than if you suck the plants dry around you, getting all energy from them in the process. You have to reach farther, getting the necessary volume of energy by small bits and scraps taken carefully from the plants from a bigger area.
As simplicity rules ;) I would say preservers use three times bigger area than defilers to gather the energy for the same spell in the same spot. Of course the number is totally arbitrary, but it is not such a big problem. Why? As the preservers energy gathering has no significant (I mean game mechanic) effect, this only comes in picture when the preserver are in a very low-life area. In a very specific situation where the plant life is so few that it makes preserving impossible, as every magic use results in defiling. What am I thinking about here? I tell you.
To cast a spell the wizard collects the necessary amount of energy from the territory she can tap. As written above, it is 5' x total spell level for defiling, three times as more for preserving. But if the plant life of the reachable area so scarce that it simply doesn't carry enough energy for casting a spell in preserver mode than the only way to cast an arcane spell is defiling. Of course this defiling would effect a greater area than usual.
These are only my toughts on this trying to use logic for this. Of course the situation I described above is a very specific one which doesn't come up in adventures at all. However it presents a very good possibility for a preserver to show her dedication: refraining from spellcasting when she knows that it can be done, but it causes defiling. From role-playing point of view this is a strong moment.
as a comprimise between the complicated increasing radius formula and the idea of having to move before defiling again, let me propose a mechanically simplistic solution.
mr defiler stands in spot A and casts an xth level spell thus defiling y number of blocks in the circular (or whatever) pattern as mentioned above. the wizard wants to cast again, but for some reason doesn't want to move. in one of the above proposed systems, he'd be SOL, but i say let him cast where he stands again.
how long does your average combat last? a couple of seconds? minutes tops right? exceptions exist, of course. Let the defiling "catch up" after combat. the total amount of defilement (is that a real word?) appears after combat is over. thus wizards do **** the land, and defilers aren't weakened by having to hotrot all over the stupid field just to cast magic missile. after combat, the defiling effects appear. i know this doesn't quite fit the image of defiling that most have in mind, but who says you have to change that image? the agonizing radius effect still works, it just doesn't keep getting further away from the wizard, rather it uses exactly the same radius every time.
just an idea... it's what i use in my athas games simply because my guys demand furiously paced combat, and we have one halfling defiler who HATED having to run around. he couldn't get out of his one defiled radius in late game without flying or using dimension door. the poor little guy...
books
-defilers/preservers can't take animal life force without the help of special magical items, usually involving obsidian spheres (Borys/Hamanu/Nok)
-Preserving requires a little bit of knowledge of nature, as in some places the balance is rather fragile.
-energy can be pulled from nearby, out of sight areas. Appears to have a medium range.
-energy does not seem to have to be pulled in any pattern, spherical or otherwise... take a little from here, a little from there...
game
-with agonizing radius, animal life force can be harmed.
-preserving is automatic, assuming that the preserver knows how much to take
-all defiling occurs underfoot.
-Defiling is spherical.
Not that what the game has done is bad (agonizing radius certainly has put the sting in defiling, and simplicity is best.) All I'm saying is, they haven't been totally faithful to description so far, so why start now? ;] It is an important issue that should be resolved.
I say, draw the radius of the defiling, and if it touches another defiled area, add 5 feet to the new radius. if you are casting from within a defiled radius, and your new radius is less than the one youre standing in, add 5 feet to the pre-existing radius.
Ideally though, (for me anyway) the system would work to mostly resemble the books. The Athas.org team seems to favor the rpg, though.
Preserving was automatic under AD&D 2nd edition rules. We've added "line walker" rules to reflect Sadira's bouncing back and forth between preserving and defiling in the Prism Pentad novels.
Preservers had the same ability score requirements as defilers under AD&D 2nd edition rules. Nothing in the Dark Sun rules required knowledge about nature represented in game mechanics to be able to preserve.
As for spherical defilement, that's the easiest solution and what AD&D 2nd edition used. However, we are considering a feat along the lines of Nagypapi's Sculpt Defiling feat.
So, contrary to your claim, the only changes we've made have been in favor of the novels.
Regarding what blocks energy gathering: the simplest rule is to say that everything that blocks the usage of maigic itself. Antimagic field, for example. Energy gathering part of the casting, so if casting is not possible, the energy gathering also not possible. And if casting is possible, then energy gathering is possible as well -it's a separate question than that the area has enough energy or not.
The gathering of life energy was never presented in the novels as an innately magical process, only the use of the energy in casting is.
For example, Rajaat developped magic...without having magic skills in the first place.
I'd say you can gather energy in an antimagic zone but can't shape it into a spell, meaning you either have to release it back, store it somewhow or cook from the inside. :D
Mmm, cooking from the inside: reminds me of that monster...what was its name again...oh yeah, the ashen.
(selfish plugging)"this is an old thread, so no one may care, but...
Let the defiling "catch up" after combat. the total amount of defilement (is that a real word?) appears after combat is over. thus wizards do **** the land, and defilers aren't weakened by having to hotrot all over the stupid field just to cast magic missile. after combat, the defiling effects appear"
Interesting idea. I kind of like the image of the ground and plant life 'bubbling away' and slowly being destroyed after the battle is done. I can picture a party coming across a battle scene with the dead and dying and knowing that it only happened a short while ago (as the ground is still turning to ash and leaking out energy) and so the PCs rush off to find the evil defiler who did this.
(Still favour the idea of defilers having to keep on the move to stay out of their defiled area though :D )
As for spherical defilement, that's the easiest solution and what AD&D 2nd edition used. However, we are considering a feat along the lines of Nagypapi's Sculpt Defiling feat.
Yes! Yes! My humble suggestion gets through! Oh, the moment of immortality! My touch formed the world of Athas forever! I'm a god!
Hey... What are you doing? Is that a straightjacket? No, I won't wear this... Hey, let me go... Hey... hey... leave me alone... Nooooooooooooo....
:D
By the way, I can see the styly defilers, who write their names, or rune, or personal marks in the land with defiler ash...
this is an old thread, so no one may care, but...
Oh noo, I simply LOVE to kick the dead kank! :D
how long does your average combat last? a couple of seconds? minutes tops right? exceptions exist, of course. Let the defiling "catch up" after combat. the total amount of defilement (is that a real word?) appears after combat is over. thus wizards do **** the land, and defilers aren't weakened by having to hotrot all over the stupid field just to cast magic missile. after combat, the defiling effects appear. i know this doesn't quite fit the image of defiling that most have in mind, but who says you have to change that image? the agonizing radius effect still works, it just doesn't keep getting further away from the wizard, rather it uses exactly the same radius every time.
Good idea, but I think it doesn't solve the problem. Even if the total defiling appears just after combat (which is a good idea, simply the plants don't become ash instantly, but a few minutes later), it's effect appears instantly. The effects are the devastation of the plant life, and the penalties for the other living beings inside. And these have to be calculated instantly (especially the second one in combat), even if the visual effects (the revelation of the total defiled area) are delaying.
-we can go with the same idea 2e had: every additional spell increases the defiled radius by 5 feet. The basic area is determined by the biggest level spell casted on the same spot.
-The second (or more) defiling is in effect in the whole enlarged defiled territory, not just in the added area. It lashing out in the whole territory, trying to get the energy from the closest source possible and if any living is in there, walking in stupidly it gets through it. Example: a radier attacks a defiler, distance is 10 feet. Defiler casts a Lightning Bolt on the radier, defiled are is 15 feet radius, raider is affected by defiling, getting the penalties (plus a lightning bolt of course). But he survives, and moves closer to attack the defiler in melee. The defiler tries to escape with Invisibility. It's not the highest level spell cast on the same spot, so it causes extra 5 feet radius getting defiled, but this defiling effects the whole 15+5=20 feet radius area again. Affectable plants are only in the new outer ring (between 15 and 20 feet radius), so these turn to ash. But our raider is standing between the defiler and the life force source for his spell. The energy gathering sweeping through him. So the raider gets the penalties again. If our raider is a treant, or other plant, it would get the HP loss two times.
-simplier sculpt defiling feat: if the defiler uses this feat, the defiled area is 5 feet radius bigger. However the defiler can designate as many creatures (including plant creatures) in this enlarged defiled area as many wizard level he has. These creatures are not affected by the negative effects of defiling. Why is it so? The defiler PC usually travels with the party, so only his comerades (plus maybe 1-2 NPC) are the ones he would like to spare in 95% of the cases. So generally no more rules needed.
-if the defiling area contains non-defilable parts (e.g. partly overlapping already defiled area) the defiling radius is 5 feet bigger. Again, it affects those who are standing in the non-usable are, as in rule 2 above.
These could go as a basic ruleset for defiling in the DS book. ;) (Yeah, I'm shamelessly pushy.) :D If the team ever does a 'Defilers and Preservers 3e' sourcebook, there can be advanced rules, like where defiled area is calculated by 5x5 feet squares, with sculpt defiling the defiler can freely re-arrange these squares, etc.
Toughts? Applauses? Curses?
I thoughat that what you're suggesting was the agreed upon way of doing it to be honest. It's certainly how I've been running things and my only problem with your suggestion is that it still says nothing about the limits of defiling range. If there is a limit to how far the plant source can be from a defiler (or indeed a preserver) then at some point they are going to have to move closer to the energy source. If there is no limit to defiling range then I think a whole lot of problems come up.
Hi Nagypapi,
I thoughat that what you're suggesting was the agreed upon way of doing it to be honest. It's certainly how I've been running things and my only problem with your suggestion is that it still says nothing about the limits of defiling range. If there is a limit to how far the plant source can be from a defiler (or indeed a preserver) then at some point they are going to have to move closer to the energy source. If there is no limit to defiling range then I think a whole lot of problems come up.
Hi Wintergreen, nice to have you here, a very nostalgic feeling in this topic for me.
Yep, I just actually summarised the toughts came up here. Regarding defiling range: I think with the simple rules (the summary above) we don't have to take it into consideration. It slowes down play unneccessarily, as it only very rarely comes into play, so we can let it into the DM decision.
But we can definitely put it into the advanced rules. IIRC we came up with something that the maximum range to gather energy from is equal to the radius the defiler defiles if he casts all of his spells in the same spot. Which is a kind of 'bird in the bush' (not Bush, for God' sake!) :D rule, it says something, but it's effect almost never comes into play. Only if somehow the defiler can cast more than his normal allotment by level, e.g. wearing a ring of wizardry.
Distance Raze
You can gather energy for spells at a distance.
Benefit: You can move the center of your defiling circle (on the ground) up to 10 feet per caster level, in effect moving the entire circle of defiling.
Normal: Your defiling circle is centered on you.
Friendly Raze
You increase your defiling radius and may specify unaffected squares.
Benefit: Your defiling radius increases by 5 feet. You can specify one 5 ft. square per 5 ft. radius of your defiling circle that is unaffected by your energy gathering. Creatures in unaffected squares do not suffer the adverse effects of being caught in the defiling circle, nor is vegetation turned to ash.
Normal: All squares in your defiling circle are affected by your energy gathering.
I would give Distance Raze to city defilers, and Friendly Raze is a must have for defilers with levels in Arch Defiler and/or Leech and who work as part of a team.
*deliberately vague*
Hi Wintergreen, nice to have you here, a very nostalgic feeling in this topic for me.
Nice to be remembered
This topic always was my favourite.
I like the idea of the maximum range just being the total of spell levels you can normally cast . Just have to watch out for those rings of wizardry, etc plus I allow defilers to draw bonus spell energy so it's more likely to come up in my game.
Jon,
Feats you suggested look very useful. I'd be tempted to perhaps put a pre-requisite in but not sure what. (Spellcraft ranks would proabably be redundant as most wizards will have enough of those, perhaps concentration and/or make their application require a move-equivalent action?)
As for obstructions and the defiling circle, I'd be inclined to either say it has no effect on the circle or perhaps it can be blocked by the same methods as detection spells (1 foot of stone etc) which would force the defiled area to be a different shape. Sound reasonable?
Let me know what you think about these two feats I cooked up, heavily inspired by Nagypapi's ideas.
Distance Raze
You can gather energy for spells at a distance.
Benefit: You can move the center of your defiling circle (on the ground) up to 10 feet per caster level, in effect moving the entire circle of defiling.
Normal: Your defiling circle is centered on you.
Friendly Raze
You increase your defiling radius and may specify unaffected squares.
Benefit: Your defiling radius increases by 5 feet. You can specify one 5 ft. square per 5 ft. radius of your defiling circle that is unaffected by your energy gathering. Creatures in unaffected squares do not suffer the adverse effects of being caught in the defiling circle, nor is vegetation turned to ash.
Normal: All squares in your defiling circle are affected by your energy gathering.
My Master, your creations are perfect as always.
:D Okay, seriously: my worry is that maybe we start to have too many feats here. I think (the number is just a gut feeling) that we should have no more than two feats to handle the whole 'defiling not happens in a circle centered by the defiler' question. What we should touch here:
-defiling doesn't happen around the defiler. Distance raze solves it nicely.
-defiling doesn't happen in a normal circle. That's my sculpt defiling feat, where you can change the form, and leave out empty spaces, etc. Friendly defiling only covers this second usage. If you don't want to cover the first part (i.e. change the form from circle) with a feat (maybe keeping it as PrC class ability), OK. But if you do I think having a third feat for it as too much. One should cover both, logically.
Nice to be remembered
This topic always was my favourite.
I like the idea of the maximum range just being the total of spell levels you can normally cast . Just have to watch out for those rings of wizardry, etc plus I allow defilers to draw bonus spell energy so it's more likely to come up in my game.
I just realised we missed one opportunity here: the cases where the normal defiling radius is increased due to a feat use, overlapping defiled area, etc. It could cause to reach the distance limit when the defiler still has spells from his normal daily allotment.
As for obstructions and the defiling circle, I'd be inclined to either say it has no effect on the circle or perhaps it can be blocked by the same methods as detection spells (1 foot of stone etc) which would force the defiled area to be a different shape. Sound reasonable?
Sounds logical, my worry here is the slowing down of game speed. These circumstances can came up quite often. It means a lot of re-calculation of the defiled territory. Especially in a city adventire with lot of walls, etc. If we use an earlier suggestion, that anti-magic fields and continous dispell effects hinder the energy gathering (the same effects thet hinder spell casting in itself), these circumstances come up much rarely, and in this case it means fun to re-calculate the defiling (as this is a main factor in the encounter).
Wintergreen, one prerequisite would in any case be "Defiler". Spellcraft is not an illogical choice, except very few feats have skill requirements (at least very few core feats have them), and energy gathering has not really been assigned to a particular skill, so I'm not too keen on adding more requirements.
Ah, I'd assumed the feats would be available to all arcane spellcasters. I was going to ask about if other types of wizard (shadow, necromancer, etc) could use them. I hadn't thought that they would be defiler only. So is it the case that preservers couldn't use these feats, or somebody who sometimes defiles and sometimes preserves but hasn't taken the plunge can't use them? What's the justification for preservers not being able to use these feats?
I can understand your reluctance to add any requirements. Perhaps a wisdom requirement to reflect some element of self-control?
Nagypapi,
with the obstructions causing the defiling area to be recalculated, I'm thinking that it's a pretty simple calculation anyway (and to work out if the obstruction is in the way then you're going to have started working it out anyway) but I guess to keep it really simple we should just say that nothing blocks the gathering apart from antimagic areas. (I rather like the idea of the defiler on the other side of the wall causing pain to a bunch of adventurers even as he puts up his mage armour and stoneskin!)
Ah, I'd assumed the feats would be available to all arcane spellcasters. I was going to ask about if other types of wizard (shadow, necromancer, etc) could use them. I hadn't thought that they would be defiler only. So is it the case that preservers couldn't use these feats, or somebody who sometimes defiles and sometimes preserves but hasn't taken the plunge can't use them? What's the justification for preservers not being able to use these feats?
Correct. You would have to have Defiler status to take the feats. That applies to all the Raze feats. The justification would be that you need training to manipulate the defiling circle.
(I rather like the idea of the defiler on the other side of the wall causing pain to a bunch of adventurers even as he puts up his mage armour and stoneskin!)
Yes, you get the feeling right, man! :D
Yes, you get the feeling right, man! :D
Excellent!
Jon,
I don't understand why a preserver couldn't acquire the training (i.e. purchase the feat) that would enable them to gather energy at a distance or shape the area but defilers can. Maybe I'm missing something?
Plus, if you succeed at hiding your spellcasting (gestures and all) no one will know a spell has been cast, or that you cast it, since the preserver gathering process is basically invisible. So no need for you to hide the gathering itself (the pulling of energy).
For a defiler who succeeds at hiding his spellcasting, there is still the ash to tell magic as occured, which may ultimately lead back to him with dire consequences.
Anything that control defiling, in any way, is the exclusivity of defilers, even if preservers can sometimes defile.
Pennarin, is the preserver energy gathering invisible? That's a big change from 2nd edition and the novels if that is the case. If that is so then it would make the 'green test' of the veiled alliance a lot easier to apply. Get the candidate to gather energy, if they can do it without visibly drawing energy to them then they are preservers!
I know that the preserver doesn't need to take these feats as written but they gather energy and have practise at doing that like defilers do. If they are a feature of the defiling process rather than the energy gathering process then maybe instead of the requirement that the character be a defiler it should say in the feat description that it can only be applied when defiling not preserving?
Objulen, sorry what's SOL? Not sure what point you're making. Yes defilers need life energy to cast spells, so do preservers. Drop a preserver into the heart of the obsidian planes and they won't be able to cast spells either.
In 2E it was different: checking Preservers & Defilers you can see a sidebar called The Color of Magic or something. In the novels plant energy was green and animal life golden, the reason why a wizard in public would draw energy with his palms close to his body (energy flows towards the palms), so to ensure that energy passes first through the ground and then trough the body before making a run for the palms.
I guess all of that is too much for 3E and is better reserved for in-game fluff.
What Pennarin said. You'd need to defile so many times that you'd fail your Will Save and become a defiler before you have enough practice to manipulate the defiling circle.
Sounds logical to me. Practice makes perfect! (And a defiler at the same time...)
I guess I'm assuming that the defiling circle is the energy gathering circle. They are the same thing, just the defiler takes all the energy in the area while the preserver only takes some, right?
I'm shamelessly copying my earlier answer on this here:
"Logically thinking preservers have to use bigger area than defilers to collect the energy. Casting a spell needs a certain amount of energy. If you preserve, gather energy in small pieces, just take little from every plant you can't amass the same volume of energy from the same area than if you suck the plants dry around you, getting all energy from them in the process. You have to reach farther, getting the necessary volume of energy by small bits and scraps taken carefully from the plants from a bigger area."
However, it's just a fluff. It has no real rule effect, as -by the rules- you can't deplete an area if you are preserving. So we can go easy on this one.
Drop a preserver into the heart of the obsidian planes and they won't be able to cast spells either.
That's right, and a very important thing in this whole topic. Without life force the preserver as helpless as a defiler. Both of them need it to cast spells. The only difference is in the way how they gather it.
Yes Wintergreen, in current DS3 rules the preserver energy gathering process is invisble. So is the defiler's, I think. The difference with a defiler is that ash appears around him, telling everyone he's a wizard.
In 2E it was different: checking Preservers & Defilers you can see a sidebar called The Color of Magic or something. In the novels plant energy was green and animal life golden, the reason why a wizard in public would draw energy with his palms close to his body (energy flows towards the palms), so to ensure that energy passes first through the ground and then trough the body before making a run for the palms.
I guess all of that is too much for 3E and is better reserved for in-game fluff.
I never liked the visible energy gathering stuff. It turns the whole hide-your-spellcasting part totally upside down. Even in 2e we played it in such way.
Objulen, sorry what's SOL? Not sure what point you're making. Yes defilers need life energy to cast spells, so do preservers. Drop a preserver into the heart of the obsidian planes and they won't be able to cast spells either.
SOL is Sorry Out of Luck.
Preservers do need life energy to cast spells, but they don't destroy the plants around them when casting spells. Defilers to the area around them into "mini-obsidian planes" by destroying the local plant life; after a while, they would run out of plants to draw energy from (which would also affect preservers). Preservers, exercising greater care, would definantly have greater lattitude at the very least. You might make the case that eventually, a preserver would start harming plant life in the area through her/his constant use of the energies of the local plant life, but I would be more inclined to simply give them infinite casting ability in the area for simplicity's sake.
similarity to defilers would make it too easy for them surely. Preservers would be able to just pretend to be clerics or psions much of the time. The fact that preserving is so similar to defiling and gets mistaken for it by non-wizards just adds to the temptation to defile and makes the true preserver a rarer and more noble creature (IMHO).
Maybe this is just fluff, but it is fluff that has a great impact on the setting. I'd honestly assumed that the 3rd ed conversion hadn't changed the 'fluff' of preserving and defiling to such an extent, given their commitment to maintaining the feel of Athas. (Guess I should go back and re-read everything to see what else has been changed.)
Quick question then: Am I the only one who assumed that preserving involved visible energy gathering (as in 2nd ed rules) and the only one who thinks it should still be the case?
Isn't that a major part of the sacrifice that preservers make?
Actually, no, the greatest sacrifice that preservers make is a sacrifice of power. Defilers gain power at a faster rate, at least in 2nd edition. Regaurdless of what the convertion does, I will probably give defilers an extra spell slot for each spell level unless the defiler feats are very good, and will probably add back in the charisma penalty from 2nd ed. Defiling should offer excellent benefits to offset the social stigma and the fact that you can get the same package deal from a different source; why bother being a defiler and thus giving up the Vieled Alliance and haven in Tyr if you don't get some good benefits from it?
The reason why defilers can't hide their magic is because of the defiling radius. The actual energy collected could be hidden, but this was not the problem for defilers. When every plant around you turns into dust, it doesn't matter how many tendrils one sees, no?
But here's a bit of a question: what about Necromancers, Shadow Mages, and the like? Defilers are evil because they destroy plant life, but necromancers and shadow mages, who draw energy from the grey and the black respectivly, wouldn't have this problem, and you could concievably have a necromancer or shadow mage defiler who never killed a single plant back in 2nd ed rules, or, for 3rd edition, have a preserver "fall" and become a defiler in grand meaningless fasion after picking up one of these prestige classes, sort of like falling to the dark side with all the perks but none of the disadvantages. And what sort of dragon or avangion would such a wizard become? If the transformation was fueled by the grey or the black, how would that alter the process? Could they even become advanced beings at all? Or would they become something else?
Quick question then: Am I the only one who assumed that preserving involved visible energy gathering (as in 2nd ed rules) and the only one who thinks it should still be the case?
I think yes, sorry.
IIRC this visible enrgy gathering was described in the 'Defilers and Preservers' accessory on the sidebar. So even in 2ed it was an optional rule.Having preservers able to spellcast with no
similarity to defilers would make it too easy for them surely. Preservers would be able to just pretend to be clerics or psions much of the time.
That's the only way they can keep their real sorce of power in secret. Or not use it at all.
But here's a bit of a question: what about Necromancers, Shadow Mages, and the like?
They simply don't exist in my DS campaigns. IMHO they are ruining the setting a bit. A big part of the uniqueness of DS is the special way of arcane magic. Having other arcane magic users, who are effectively out of the defiler-preserver way of things is not good for the style.
And what sort of dragon or avangion would such a wizard become? If the transformation was fueled by the grey or the black, how would that alter the process? Could they even become advanced beings at all? Or would they become something else?
This has been addressed in other threads. Do a search. Keep this thread focused.
Quick question then: Am I the only one who assumed that preserving involved visible energy gathering (as in 2nd ed rules) and the only one who thinks it should still be the case?
I have always assumed that preserving took the form of a faint twinkling of light, leading from the ground to the palm... I beleive it is described in the novels that way. Also, I beleive in one part in either Verdant Passage or Amber Enchantress, Sadira crouches low to the ground to mask her attempt at spellcasting. So yes, it's visible, but with a little skill and a little luck, it can be hidden. Defiling preculdes that fact, so there's one thing in the novels that preserving has over defiling.
Personally, i think preserving does come with a certain degree of security... With the VA's to help you, and the ability to keep your power secret. I know that's an additional bribe to stay a preserver, but I think thats a small condolance when some beast is chasing you down in the middle of the desert, and you wouldn't mind just a little more fire in your fireball. Preserving doesn't have to be bankrupt of everything save moral superiority in order for defiling to be a temptation, at least in my humble opinion.
This has been addressed in other threads. Do a search. Keep this thread focused.
I actually have been searching, but unsuccessfully. Perhaps my search has been too limited, but I have not been able to find the answer. However, I will keep looking.
They simply don't exist in my DS campaigns. IMHO they are ruining the setting a bit. A big part of the uniqueness of DS is the special way of arcane magic. Having other arcane magic users, who are effectively out of the defiler-preserver way of things is not good for the style.
This I would have to agree with. I like the flavor of these wizards, but I have to wonder why there would be any defilers or preservers at all with these types of wizards. As presented in 2nd ed, you basically get all the benefits of being a defiler with none of the draw backs. The flavor wasn't bad though, with the strange mysteriousness surrounding it, but you have to wonder -- if just one of these guys spreads their secrets to the VA, why didn't they snap them up? It is rather a bit of a stretch to accept that they remained utterly hidden for how ever many centuries. It also defeats the purpose of the planar issolation of Athas -- what's the point of keeping Athas cut off from the Planes so outside wizardry can't get in when you have alternate sources right at home?
However, the Shadow Wizard and the Necromancer might work as heavily modified sorcerers or some sort of "plane-touched", humans or whatever "infected" by the grey or the black, who could not learn wizard magic but could tap their blood for very specific powers. The new Warlock class coming out with Complete Arcane might be an option.
Obviously Raze feats wouldn't work if you tap into an alternative energy source than plant life, so there is loss of some defiler benefits. Of course, the ceruleans et al. are free to defile when they won't suffer any consequences, for example in the middle of the desert being chased by a gray-touched mekillot, so they do in fact enjoy some benefits if they are defilers (though those pesky druids have a knack for showing up at the wrong time). But really, there's the moral choice - not just the numbers.
I was refering to second edition in my post. And while it is true that you lose Raze feats, from the admittedly little I have been able to experiance with them, they are not just not good enough compared to the experiance point boost defilers got in 2nd edition for a variety of reasons; I would house rule that defilers get an extra spell slot per each level of spells as well.
From the way preserving is described here I wonder why there is any stigma attached to being a preserver. It seems that they are engaged in a different process to defilers so they could do it quite openly. A major element of the background for me was always that preservers suffer the prejudice against defilers despite the fact that they have found a plant friendly way to gather energy for spellcasting. But it looks like defiling, which is why people don't know of the existence of preservers and just see wizards as being synonomous with defilers.
Ignorance. Most people don't know the difference between defilers and preservers. Those who do are generally at least tolerant of preservers.
Actually, preservers gather energy the same way and defilers, they just exercise greater control so they don't destroy the plant life they are drawing off of.
I was refering to second edition in my post. And while it is true that you lose Raze feats, from the admittedly little I have been able to experiance with them, they are not just not good enough compared to the experiance point boost defilers got in 2nd edition for a variety of reasons; I would house rule that defilers get an extra spell slot per each level of spells as well.
Read the DS3 FAQ on www.athas.org/faq
Btw - if you can't create an über-defiler with the Arch Defiler class and the right raze feats, then you're not a munchkin - which is considered a good thing by many!
Ignorance. Most people don't know the difference between defilers and preservers. Those who do are generally at least tolerant of preservers.
Actually, preservers gather energy the same way and defilers, they just exercise greater control so they don't destroy the plant life they are drawing off of.
Ignorance of what? if preservers leave no ash and their energy gathering looks nothing like defiler energy gathering and people are ignorant about spells (ie they have no spellcraft) then why would they attack a preserver but not attack a druid or a cleric or a psion?
If preserving is the same process as defiling then why does it look radically different? (I understand people have given gaming reasons of making life easier for preservers but what is the in-game, setting explanation of why the same process looks so different?)
Ignorance of what? if preservers leave no ash and their energy gathering looks nothing like defiler energy gathering and people are ignorant about spells (ie they have no spellcraft) then why would they attack a preserver but not attack a druid or a cleric or a psion?
Because most people will have seen a Psion working their powers, and Clerics (especially Templars) doing theirs. Arcane magic they won't have seen, and it looks radically different (Preserver or Defiler) to Psionics or Clerical invocations)
Read the DS3 FAQ on www.athas.org/faq
Btw - if you can't create an über-defiler with the Arch Defiler class and the right raze feats, then you're not a munchkin - which is considered a good thing by many!
I read it, and I am quite aware of the reasons why defilers are being balanced as they are, I just don't agree with them. Defilers are supposed to be more powerful that preservers -- this was the allure of defiling, and compensation for the extra social stigmas associated with the class. Without some benefit for defiling that preserver don't get, why bother with the class at all? Why give up the Vieled Alliance and haven in Tyr to be a class when you can get all the features of that class and more from another? While I admit I haven't played much, I have not seen a credible reason why, if given the choice and a full information, anyone would choose to be a preserver over a defiler. With increased power, the reason exists.
Ignorance of what? if preservers leave no ash and their energy gathering looks nothing like defiler energy gathering and people are ignorant about spells (ie they have no spellcraft) then why would they attack a preserver but not attack a druid or a cleric or a psion?
Most people don't know this, and on Athas, the "Psionics is different" option is used -- psionics and divine magic appear quite different from arcane magic, and the people fear them, a fear supported by the Sorcerer Kings. They can recognize wizards, but all they know is that all of them are evil, which, while obviously being untrue, is all you need to get a mob going.
If preserving is the same process as defiling then why does it look radically different? (I understand people have given gaming reasons of making life easier for preservers but what is the in-game, setting explanation of why the same process looks so different?)
It doesn't look radically different, or different at all. A preserver and a defiler can hide the actual energies gathered from the process, but a defiler can not hide the results of the process, the circle of lifeless ash. This is the difference.
Does this really matter game mechanically? If you kneel down and place your palms close to the ground or put them behind your back so people in front of you can't see you gather energy, this is covered by the Bluff check to conceal spellcasting. This flavor issue does not need to affect the mechanics.
Some people like things to make sense in a game; its the relative ratio of suspension of disbelief. Some people have it in greater abundance than others. I have to stop myself on occasion from mentioning some nagging, insignificant flaw in the setting or consistency in the game. It depends on the person.
People cite ignorance of spellcasting for the reason preservers are attacked and reviled by the population. Surely how it is is that presevers and defilers do the very same thing (gather life energy from plants to cast spells) and as it is the very same process, just done at a different rate, then it looks the same. People are ignorant of the fact that you can preserve and so not destroy the environment so when they see the beginnings of energy gathering they attack the gatherer because they believe them to eb a wizard. Their ignorance is in not knowing about preserving/just thinking that wizard=defiler.
If arcane spellcasting gestures look so radically different from clerical spellcasting thenwhy have the same skill used to identify them (spellcraft)? [Admittedly in my games I divide it into arcane spellcraft and divine spellcraft but that's not what most people seem to do). Plus that only really covers spells with somatic and material components. If you have a wizard casting with still spell, etc then there isn't going to be such a difference.
Jon, overall no this doesn't affect game mechanics and I'm really asking because I want to find out how other people present dark sun. I don't intend this to be a discussion about game mechanics (I know I already use different mechanics for preserving/defiling to most), it is just a discussion about the flavour in a campaign (as far as I'm concerned).
I read it, and I am quite aware of the reasons why defilers are being balanced as they are, I just don't agree with them.
You don't have to agree, but it is the way it has to be done if we are to have an official convesion. Like I've also stated in the FAQ, just toss out the CR/XP system and you can modify as much as you want - including giving defilers more benefits. More power to you.
Defilers are supposed to be more powerful that preservers -- this was the allure of defiling, and compensation for the extra social stigmas associated with the class. Without some benefit for defiling that preserver don't get, why bother with the class at all? Why give up the Vieled Alliance and haven in Tyr to be a class when you can get all the features of that class and more from another? While I admit I haven't played much, I have not seen a credible reason why, if given the choice and a full information, anyone would choose to be a preserver over a defiler. With increased power, the reason exists.
Then I suggest you sit down and actually try it. One example: A defiler 5/arch defiler 5 with Destructive Raze, Empower Spell and Maximize Spell cast an Empowered Fireball and uses the Casting Time Metamagic class feature to apply Maximize Spell. That's the maximum effect of (10d6+10) +1/2 of (10d6+10) rolled normally, which amounts to 92.5 points of damage on average. If our defiler also has Distant Raze, he can apply a -3 penalty to opponents' saves, attack rolls and skill checks due to the Painful Radius class feature. Let me see your 10th level preserver do that. A 10th level preserver with Empower Spell, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus would deal an average of 52.5 points of damage and increase the save difficulty of the spell by 2. If you've got a more potent example, please do tell.
If you've got a more potent example, please do tell.
A defiler 5/arch defiler5/leech 1 with the Distant Raze feat and the Ashbound Scarab magic item (only useful for defilers ;)).
With Distant Raze you can position the defiling radius on your target so that it takes a -4 penalty (Agonizing Radius feat, painful radius class ability, ashbound scarab) and 2 points of damage per level of the spell being cast (life-draining radius class ability, ashbound scarab).
Ya baby!
You don't have to agree, but it is the way it has to be done if we are to have an official convesion. Like I've also stated in the FAQ, just toss out the CR/XP system and you can modify as much as you want - including giving defilers more benefits. More power to you.
You don't even need to toss out the CR/XP system. You can keep the xp system -- all you have to do is increase the power of defilers per level. Then you have to adjust the CR system for the new power level. I also wasn't trying to start an argument up, just stating my opinion.
Then I suggest you sit down and actually try it. One example: A defiler 5/arch defiler 5 with Destructive Raze, Empower Spell and Maximize Spell cast an Empowered Fireball and uses the Casting Time Metamagic class feature to apply Maximize Spell. That's the maximum effect of (10d6+10) +1/2 of (10d6+10) rolled normally, which amounts to 92.5 points of damage on average. If our defiler also has Distant Raze, he can apply a -3 penalty to opponents' saves, attack rolls and skill checks due to the Painful Radius class feature. Let me see your 10th level preserver do that. A 10th level preserver with Empower Spell, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus would deal an average of 52.5 points of damage and increase the save difficulty of the spell by 2. If you've got a more potent example, please do tell.
I have actually sat down and tried. I said that I hadn't played it much, but I had played it. I just need more testing before I make a final judgement. But what you have here is not the straight defiler class, it is the defiler class with a prestige class, albiet one that only defilers can take. If the entire point of the defiler is eventually move onto the arch-defiler prestige class, why don't you just roll it into the defiler class and cut out the middle man? I am aware that you have to worry about the CR system, but if every defiler worth her/his salt is going to take the arch-defiler class, then every smart defiler is going to have a higher effective CR anyway, and the entire argument of keeping CRs and levels constant is moot beyond a need for book keeping. How is it logical that you can't have an unbalanced base class but you can have an unbalanced prestige class? Defilers always were supposed to be unbalanced in terms of wizardly power -- that's their benefit. They suffered in terms of social stigma, made manifest by the charisma penalty that they suffered as they advanced in level.
You don't even need to toss out the CR/XP system. You can keep the xp system -- all you have to do is increase the power of defilers per level. Then you have to adjust the CR system for the new power level. I also wasn't trying to start an argument up, just stating my opinion.
Heh, good luck.
But what you have here is not the straight defiler class, it is the defiler class with a prestige class, albiet one that only defilers can take. If the entire point of the defiler is eventually move onto the arch-defiler prestige class, why don't you just roll it into the defiler class and cut out the middle man?
Not all defilers become arch defilers. Some take levels in myrmeleon, leech or multiclass into a class that utilizes other energy sources. If you read the FAQ, you know that we can't make a defiler core class more powerful than a core preserver class, and since switching back and forth (such as Sadira appears to do) between being a defiler and preserver would be a nightmare with two separate classes, that is not an option.
if every defiler worth her/his salt is going to take the arch-defiler class, then every smart defiler is going to have a higher effective CR anyway, and the entire argument of keeping CRs and levels constant is moot beyond a need for book keeping. How is it logical that you can't have an unbalanced base class but you can have an unbalanced prestige class? Defilers always were supposed to be unbalanced in terms of wizardly power -- that's their benefit. They suffered in terms of social stigma, made manifest by the charisma penalty that they suffered as they advanced in level.
A prestige class can be more powerful than a core class. If you've rifled through any D&D book released by Wizards of the Coast, you'll note that some prestige classes are more useful/powerful than others, and the same applies to feats. Thus, we made the defiler potentially more powerful than a preserver within the bounds of these concepts. It's not breaking the CR system, but a core class that is significantly more powerful than another core class is unacceptable. Furthermore, roleplaying penalties can only to a limited degree balance "non-roleplaying" penalties (i.e. combat benefits). A defiler in the middle of the desert with no witnesses around doesn't suffer any social stigma - it depends on the campaign. And no - druids showing up is just an XP source unless the DM wants to kill the PC.
But what you have here is not the straight defiler class, it is the defiler class with a prestige class, albiet one that only defilers can take.
Don't underestimate the extra points of damage from Destructive Raze. An additional 1.5 points of damage per die if you use Empower Spell is in fact quite potent on its own. And the defiler in our example would still inflict a -2 penalty to saves, attacks and skill checks to those caught in the defiling radius.
Even a magic missile without any metamagic applications inflicts an additional 5 points of damage. That's a leap from 17.5 to 22.5 points of (almost) unavoidable damage at 9th level - more significant than you might think.
Not all defilers become arch defilers. Some take levels in myrmeleon, leech or multiclass into a class that utilizes other energy sources. If you read the FAQ, you know that we can't make a defiler core class more powerful than a core preserver class, and since switching back and forth (such as Sadira appears to do) between being a defiler and preserver would be a nightmare with two separate classes, that is not an option.
Except that according to the rules, you can only switch from defiler to preserver and back once -- you get one chance, and then your toast, as they say. Wizards/TSR has never been very good at following its own rules in the books that are written for the various settings. Additionally, while defilers don't have to become arch-defilers, can you honestly say that arch-defiler isn't basically a bigger, badder defiler class that you can only get at higher levels?
A prestige class can be more powerful than a core class. If you've rifled through any D&D book released by Wizards of the Coast, you'll note that some prestige classes are more useful/powerful than others, and the same applies to feats. Thus, we made the defiler potentially more powerful than a preserver within the bounds of these concepts. It's not breaking the CR system, but a core class that is significantly more powerful than another core class is unacceptable. Furthermore, roleplaying penalties can only to a limited degree balance "non-roleplaying" penalties (i.e. combat benefits). A defiler in the middle of the desert with no witnesses around doesn't suffer any social stigma - it depends on the campaign. And no - druids showing up is just an XP source unless the DM wants to kill the PC.
This is very true, except that these prestige classes are designed to have a certain limit on them in most cases, and these prestige classes are designed to change the core class in some way, to refocus it. Arch-defiler is a bigger better defiler, basically, a more potent version. The myrmeleon and leech refocus or add to the defiler class, while the arch-defiler is defiler, extra large.
As for being unsociable in the desert, the unsociable part was a game mechanic in 2nd ed; if you recall defilers recieved a charisma penalty as they leveled. And defilers are supposed to end up in the desert, alone, brooding in their dark power. That was the flavor of the class. They are hated like preservers but they can't hide their casting easily because of the radius of ash, they don't have the Vield Alliance, and they don't have Tyr. Elemental clerics and druids hate them, while these two classes usually tolerate preservers for a short time, or at least don't attack them on sight.
Don't underestimate the extra points of damage from Destructive Raze. An additional 1.5 points of damage per die if you use Empower Spell is in fact quite potent on its own. And the defiler in our example would still inflict a -2 penalty to saves, attacks and skill checks to those caught in the defiling radius.
Even a magic missile without any metamagic applications inflicts an additional 5 points of damage. That's a leap from 17.5 to 22.5 points of (almost) unavoidable damage at 9th level - more significant than you might think.
As I said, I am not done testing. I will certainly test more before making a final decision on the topic, but I am skepitcal. It's a personality trait.
Except that according to the rules, you can only switch from defiler to preserver and back once -- you get one chance, and then your toast, as they say.
That's not exactly the whole truth. The spell conversion can be potentially used many times by tainted preservers and outright defilers alike.
As for being unsociable in the desert, the unsociable part was a game mechanic in 2nd ed; if you recall defilers recieved a charisma penalty as they leveled. And defilers are supposed to end up in the desert, alone, brooding in their dark power. That was the flavor of the class.
2nd edition is and will always remain unbalanced. It has fundamentally different design principles than 3/3.5 edition. You can't make a conversion without breaking some eggs or tweaking things within the boundaries of the system.
This is very true, except that these prestige classes are designed to have a certain limit on them in most cases, and these prestige classes are designed to change the core class in some way, to refocus it. Arch-defiler is a bigger better defiler, basically, a more potent version. The myrmeleon and leech refocus or add to the defiler class, while the arch-defiler is defiler, extra large.
Yes and no. The Arch Defiler represents the "more powerful than a preserver at the cost of social stigma" defiler from 2E. But don't forget that all defilers in the novels aren't like that, for example Escrissar. There are defilers who are masters of seduction and are the center of attention at every party (Temnya Shom for instance) - hardly social stigma.
Yes and no. The Arch Defiler represents the "more powerful than a preserver at the cost of social stigma" defiler from 2E. But don't forget that all defilers in the novels aren't like that, for example Escrissar. There are defilers who are masters of seduction and are the center of attention at every party (Temnya Shom for instance) - hardly social stigma.
But then again, the books have never been very good at following the printed rules from any D&D campain setting. Sardira was one example, and Dark Sun 2nd edition specifically states that defilers recieve a charisma penalty as they level up from the arua of death that klings to them. You certainly could make a PrC defiler "social stealth" class, on the perhaps even sacrifices some power for being able to exist in society, but then again, that is the entire point of PrCs, to modify and change a core class or classes to have a focus of some kind, generally built around a theme. My issue here is that the Arch-Defiler class doens't really fit the point of a PrC; it's just what the defiler should end up being anyway.
I'm just curious about how people present things. Yes the game mechanics are important but I'm just wondering about in game descriptions. Some people seem to say that there is visible energy gathering going on with defilers but not with preservers while others say that it is visible for both but it can be easily hidden by placing palms close to the source of magic. That can help hide it but presumably energy flows from all parts of the energy gathering radius so if that is larger than a palm something can be seen.
[...]
Jon, overall no this doesn't affect game mechanics and I'm really asking because I want to find out how other people present dark sun. I don't intend this to be a discussion about game mechanics (I know I already use different mechanics for preserving/defiling to most), it is just a discussion about the flavour in a campaign (as far as I'm concerned).
Well Wintergreen, the energy gathering process in my campaign is visible to the naked eye as a mirage-like green or golden shimmer. I like it that mages can be identified and it doesn't take long for them to be lynched if they're in public be they preserver or defiler.
As for defilers being weaker or not, I like them the way they are with Athas.org: balanced. (Oh! I'm being a suck-up, ain't I? :D )
PB
That's not exactly the whole truth. The spell conversion can be potentially used many times by tainted preservers and outright defilers alike.
Which supplement is this spell in? I have not been able to look it up in my 2nd ed books.
Which supplement is this spell in? I have not been able to look it up in my 2nd ed books.
It's in DS3.
My issue here is that the Arch-Defiler class doens't really fit the point of a PrC; it's just what the defiler should end up being anyway.
You're the only one I've heard of who has ever fronted an issue with this. Even if *you* feel that the Arch Defiler violates a prestige class design principle, I don't, and regardless of either of our opinions, the current solution is within the boundaries of the rules set, and more flexible than the 2nd edition defiler ever was - there are those who feel the books are as canon as the game material, if not more so. The current solution accomodates all - if you feel you *must* take levels in arch defiler to be true to the 2nd edition game rules defiler, then that's your issue. I've yet to see something that adds value to the conversion from our discussion and your views. All I read is that you want an unbalanced defiler core class, and I've explained to you why that is a bad idea in a D&D 3E conversion and our rationale for our solution. Go ahead and make a new D20 conversion with more powerful defilers than preservers utilizing only a core class, but it doesn't fly well in D&D 3E.
The Arch Defiler represents the "more powerful than a preserver at the cost of social stigma" defiler from 2E. But don't forget that all defilers in the novels aren't like that, for example Escrissar.
Escrissar was a wizard? I thought he was a psionicist! I seem to recall people refering to him as something like a mindbender when he made an attempt on the life of Pavek...
IIRC, Escrissar was a Deadheart, a necromancer.
I'll have to reread that novel then, but it does strike a chord.
The Arch Defiler represents the "more powerful than a preserver at the cost of social stigma" defiler from 2E. But don't forget that all defilers in the novels aren't like that, for example Escrissar. There are defilers who are masters of seduction and are the center of attention at every party (Temnya Shom for instance) - hardly social stigma.
Jon has a good point Objulen: not all defilers are uncharismatic or even spotted as defilers at all.
If you want to play a defiler that fits the limited 2E mold it had then you take levels in Arch-Defiler or Leech and you gain that Tainted Aura class ability that you so much like from 2E. Its not an outright Charisma penalty but its penalties to skills related to social interaction and a bonus to Intimidate.
Any other defiler can potentially hide his spellcasting through the feat Distant Raze or by taking a level of Myrmeleon (although the class is made for SK infiltrators into the VA, its perfect for defilers trying to survive in a city), or through a magic item that hides or otherwise modifies the ash circle you create (SKs are supposed to give such items to the myrmeleons under their service).
I'm just combing through the boards catching up on stuff.... and I noticed this thread has turned into quite a few different subjects recently... so I'm gonna try and touch on all of them real quick..
Regarding the original topic of this thread, the defiling radius:
during the only times that it is going to matter and come into play, it will pretty much REQUIRE the GM to make stuff up on the fly anyway.. no matter what rules you think need to be added for it..... so why bother adding more rules for it?..
Regarding the Defiler-Only Raze Feats:
somebody mentioned that they need requirements.... maybe this shouldnt be in the form of Prerequisites.. but something like a Concentration check when you use it during the casting of a spell... as in the same way you "cast defensively"?.... maybe this should have its own thread?(or does already and I didnt see it?)..
Regarding the display of Arcane Magic:
all this talk about being able to hide a casting, and defiler vs. preserver, and what color the energy gathering is, and the lack of energy display in 3e/3.5... are almost no mention of the fact that almost every spell has a VERBAL or SOMATIC component... OR BOTH.... between using the Silent Spell feat, the Still Spell feat, and hiding your raze circle if you're a defiler.. what level of spell do you expect to get off in public without being seen? (not to mention avoiding the psionicists trying to locate the caster mentally!)...
this topic also should maybe have its own thread?..
Regarding the display of Arcane Magic:
all this talk about being able to hide a casting, and defiler vs. preserver, and what color the energy gathering is, and the lack of energy display in 3e/3.5... are almost no mention of the fact that almost every spell has a VERBAL or SOMATIC component... OR BOTH.... between using the Silent Spell feat, the Still Spell feat, and hiding your raze circle if you're a defiler.. what level of spell do you expect to get off in public without being seen? (not to mention avoiding the psionicists trying to locate the caster mentally!)...
No one mentions that because in DS3 the Bluff skill is showned to be useful in hiding the verbal AND somatic components of a spell.
You're only in trouble when missing your Bluff check, defiling, or using a spell with a range of personal and a visible display, or a ranged attack spell originating from the caster's body...
A smart DM and player will know its spells and use them accordingly so that all he needs to do to survive is use Bluff and, in the case of a defiler, make creative use of the Distant Raze feat...
No one mentions that because in DS3 the Bluff skill is showned to be useful in hiding the verbal AND somatic components of a spell.
is there a discussion about the development of this that I cant seem to find?.... I kinda want to know who thought it was balanced to replace the use of TWO metamagic feats with a SINGLE skill check?.....
at the very least should it not be two bluff checks?... one for the verbal and one for the somatic?..
So now in 3E both possibilities are found under the Bluff skill (Paizo's own conversion does the same but uses Sleight of Hand).
The actual use of Slient and Still spells, in DS as in any other setting, is to allow the player to cast a spell while grappled or bound, gagged or within a silence area, which still are good reasons for taking the feats even in DS. Besides, if you increase a spell's slot level by 2 to make it silenced and stilled you don't need to succeed at a Bluff check.
It's in DS3
That's why I couldn't find it. I was refering to the 2nd ed. rules when I made that statement. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
You're the only one I've heard of who has ever fronted an issue with this. Even if *you* feel that the Arch Defiler violates a prestige class design principle, I don't, and regardless of either of our opinions, the current solution is within the boundaries of the rules set, and more flexible than the 2nd edition defiler ever was - there are those who feel the books are as canon as the game material, if not more so.
My issue here is the flavor. Defilers were supposed to be much more powerful than preservers by about 25%, given the xp difference between the two classes; this means that a level 4 defiler should have a CR 5, a level 8 defiler should have a CR of 10, etc, if you were going to compare the preserver and defiler from 2nd edition. While it is quite true that the PrCs from 3rd edition are much more flexible, there were still "kits" in 2nd edition, which are somewhat analogous -- several kits from 2nd edition made their way to 3rd in the form of presitge classes. However, the defiler was a class, not a kit, and it is my opinion that the standard defiler should end up being more powerful than preservers in the fasion I described above -- by about 25%. Making the natural progression of the defiler into a prestige class is like taking the base 20 level class, cutting it down to 10 levels, and then making a PrC to finish it off. And what's the point in that? PrCs are about taking your character down another path, not finishing off an existing class. The official reason is that it won't be balanced with the rest of the classes, but I don't see how it is an issue in 3rd edition when it wasn't an issue in 2nd edition. The only difference in 3rd edition is the standardization of power for each class per level, at least in theory; theoretically, a wizard with 1,000,000 xp was as powerful as a fighter with 1,000,000 xp (this wasn't true, but that was a theory), so a defiler, who levels faster, had 1,000,000 xp, then the defiler would be obviously more powerful than any other class. The only difference in 3rd edition is that since the xp per level per class is standarized between classes, you have to make the defiler more power in another way -- CR.
As for the book being canon, I would disagree. But in any case, if you accept the books as canon, then you can't use canon for much because it would contradict itself in several ways. Since TSR printed the Campain setting as the mechanics to actually run the game, I believe that those take priority, and the differences in the novels being literary liscence.
The current solution accomodates all - if you feel you *must* take levels in arch defiler to be true to the 2nd edition game rules defiler, then that's your issue. I've yet to see something that adds value to the conversion from our discussion and your views. All I read is that you want an unbalanced defiler core class, and I've explained to you why that is a bad idea in a D&D 3E conversion and our rationale for our solution. Go ahead and make a new D20 conversion with more powerful defilers than preservers utilizing only a core class, but it doesn't fly well in D&D 3E.
I have yet to see that great of a difference. As I said, a defiler would become gradually more and more powerful than the preserver anyway, which was in theory the base wizard and thus in theory balanced to the other classes, and I honestly think that the situation you say wouldn't work in 2nd edition would have been the reality if the classes were actually decently balanced across all levels, instead of fighters being better at lower levels and wizards being better at higher levels, etc. It also depends on play style and DMing. There are drawbacks to being a defiler that really matters, but they are social drawbacks, which have to be enforced by the DM. A defiler has no friends, and a known defiler has a great many enemies. Further, a defiler's greater spell casting power would be of great impact in a "kick in the door" style game or a one shot game. In a game that has as much emphasis on role-playing and character interaction, both PC and NPC, or a game set in the city states, or a game with a more cloak-and-dagger politicing, the defilers extra spell casting strength doesn't go quite as far.
The official reason is that it won't be balanced with the rest of the classes, but I don't see how it is an issue in 3rd edition when it wasn't an issue in 2nd edition. The only difference in 3rd edition is the standardization of power for each class per level, at least in theory; theoretically, a wizard with 1,000,000 xp was as powerful as a fighter with 1,000,000 xp (this wasn't true, but that was a theory), so a defiler, who levels faster, had 1,000,000 xp, then the defiler would be obviously more powerful than any other class. The only difference in 3rd edition is that since the xp per level per class is standarized between classes, you have to make the defiler more power in another way -- CR.
Black Knight: "I'm invincible!"
Arthur: "You're a looney"
The only difference in 3rd edition is that since the xp per level per class is standarized between classes, you have to make the defiler more power in another way -- CR.
If I lower the brightness of my monitor to 0, this actually makes sense.
If I lower the brightness of my monitor to 0, this actually makes sense.
And how, pray-tell, does it not make sense. Please, enlighten me.
Black Knight: "I'm invincible!"
Arthur: "You're a looney"
Come pack here! I'll bight your knee caps off!
Honestly, though, I might be a looney, but I'm a looney with a point.
In second edition the theory was that class X at a general level of experiance was as powerful as class y at the same general given level of experiance. Now, it didn't work out that way, but that was because of poor implementation, not because it wasn't the intent. So, since the defiler isbasically the wizard, which was, in theory balanced with everyone other class at the same xp level, and defilers level faster, it can be said that the thoery was for the defiler to be more powerful than the other supposidly balanced core classes. The reason why this didn't happen was poor implementation, not intent.
Now, if anyone can see any reason why this analysis is wrong, please tell me. I would like nothing more than to be accurate.
Come pack here! I'll bight your knee caps off!
Honestly, though, I might be a looney, but I'm a looney with a point.
I'm glad you see the humor in it.
Dark Sun under AD&D 2nd edition was never a balanced setting, nor was it intended to be. You had half-giants that doubled their hit die rolls, one kind of wizard (defiler) who gained levels much rapider than the standard wizard in the Player's Handbook (preserver), thri-kreen with x amounts of attacks per round that with psionics could get off close to 200 attacks or something IIRC. Balance between classes, races etc. just wasn't a design principle in AD&D 2E Dark Sun - even if it was supposed to be in the AD&D 2E Player's Handbook. Dark Sun was very different from other settings in that regard.
You miss my point. Yes, Dark Sun AD&D 2nd edition was never a balanced setting, but that is the entire point of my argument -- there were elements, like defilers, that were supposed to be unbalanced. My argument was that core AD&D 2nd edition was intended to be balanced, so the imbalances of Dark Sun were intentional and part of the setting, and should be retained when applicable. For example, Half-Giants are still more powerful than humans and other races, but now we have LA and ECL to help balance that out and keep things even. But races need to be balanced so there is no mechanical reason to pick one over the other for players, who shouldn't feel pushed to choose a specific race, which ECL's do, and there was no setting emphasis on one race being better or more powerful than another. Sure, half-giants were strong and tough, but you didn't see a massive empire of obviously superior half-giants ruling the city states.
Defilers, on the other hand, are a very different story. Defilers were supposed to be intrinsicly more powerful than preservers, to create a lure to be one and a story based reason why there were still defilers when preservers get benefits defilers don't. Defiling magic has always been Athas' "dark side of the force", to use a star wars analogy, and the imbalance in 2nd edition between the defiler and preservers served as the carrot, the lure to tempt wizards and power seekers down the dark side of magic.
As for psionics, 2nd edition psioncs were buggy and flawed, and the Thri-Kreen exploit was obviously something to be disallowed, at least by any intelligent DM who is trying to run a serious game.
Well you basically state that in 3E classes are balanced in relation to each other and then go right out saying you need to make the defiler more powerful by nixing the basic rules of 3E.
Defiler-only feats and PrCs is a legal way to go around touching the XP/CR and other read-only systems.
Its also quite frustating that you keep wanting to talk 3E yet keep starting your arguments with "In 2E...", which is a sure indication of a lack of a foundation in current game reality. Some stuff's legal, some is not, thus some stuff's made for d20/home entertainment and other is made for official material like DS3. There's no way around it.
You might have appreciated the old discussions and argumentations around the rules that would make defiling slightly more powerful than preservers, but sadly those threads were on the Old Boards. Maybe some threads on the current forum still exist about filled with the arguments of people not happy with the very thing you currently aren't happy with.
Many believe that Paizo's defiler was unbalanced because the game penalties that were to counteract the bonuses were meager, like becoming a t'liz was actually a bad thing! If an evil wizard on Toril only needed to cast lots of spells with the Evil descriptor to become a lich, you bet there would be thousands more of them out there.
Athas.org found a good way of making defilers slightly more appealing mechanic-wise at low levels, and to keep the appeal throughout later levels (one can always use a +1 to spellcaster level from casting in a full-round action). Anything more than that no longer matches the guidelines set down by WotC and must be expressed through PrCs and feats.
You miss my point. Yes, Dark Sun AD&D 2nd edition was never a balanced setting, but that is the entire point of my argument -- there were elements, like defilers, that were supposed to be unbalanced. My argument was that core AD&D 2nd edition was intended to be balanced, so the imbalances of Dark Sun were intentional and part of the setting, and should be retained when applicable.
Read the FAQ. http://www.athas.org/faq. It's stated quite clearly why we cannot retain imbalance between any elements in a D&D 3E conversion, especially the part about a new d20 conversion vs. D&D 3E conversion.
For example, Half-Giants are still more powerful than humans and other races, but now we have LA and ECL to help balance that out and keep things even. But races need to be balanced so there is no mechanical reason to pick one over the other for players, who shouldn't feel pushed to choose a specific race, which ECL's do, and there was no setting emphasis on one race being better or more powerful than another. Sure, half-giants were strong and tough, but you didn't see a massive empire of obviously superior half-giants ruling the city states.
You contradict yourself. First you say we need to keep imbalance, and then you use an example with balanced elements (LA and ECL). Your racial power argument is moot, seeing half-giants make up but small percentages of the total populations in all city-states, so even if one 2E half-giant could take down three humans, the humans would still win by sheer strength in numbers. In 3E a half-giant and an equivalent ECL human character would have a 50-50 chance of either winning. In 2E it wasn't so. The half-giant was supreme. Thus half-giants were superior warriors, just as defilers were superior wizards. You must understand that classes must be balanced just as races have to be in D&D 3E. It is a fundamental design principle.
Defilers, on the other hand, are a very different story. Defilers were supposed to be intrinsicly more powerful than preservers, to create a lure to be one and a story based reason why there were still defilers when preservers get benefits defilers don't. Defiling magic has always been Athas' "dark side of the force", to use a star wars analogy, and the imbalance in 2nd edition between the defiler and preservers served as the carrot, the lure to tempt wizards and power seekers down the dark side of magic.
Your argument falls flat in that the Dark Side is not more powerful in Star Wars D20. Check the Force Point tables.
Well you basically state that in 3E classes are balanced in relation to each other and then go right out saying you need to make the defiler more powerful by nixing the basic rules of 3E.
Defiler-only feats and PrCs is a legal way to go around touching the XP/CR and other read-only systems.
Game systems are designed to serve the setting; the setting is not designed to serve the game system. I'm a huge fan of
Its also quite frustating that you keep wanting to talk 3E yet keep starting your arguments with "In 2E...", which is a sure indication of a lack of a foundation in current game reality. Some stuff's legal, some is not, thus some stuff's made for d20/home entertainment and other is made for official material like DS3. There's no way around it.
I am comparing 2nd edition to current 3rd edition because 3rd edition was based on 2nd edition both thematically and more or less (emphasis on the less) rules wise, and the same general theories (such as the supposed balance base classes). My question is this: if creating an intrinsically more powerful class for 2nd edition isn't a problem, then why is it a problem to recreate an intrinsically more powerful class for 3rd edition? I am quite aware that it doesn't fit exactly in the 3rd edition rules, but rules are made to serve the game, not vice-versa.
Further, everything in the 3rd ed conversion is from 2nd edition, so it has to be used as the reference point; how can you hold a debate or discusion without some sort of foundation that both parties agree is true? If the topic of contention is
You might have appreciated the old discussions and argumentations around the rules that would make defiling slightly more powerful than preservers, but sadly those threads were on the Old Boards. Maybe some threads on the current forum still exist about filled with the arguments of people not happy with the very thing you currently aren't happy with.
I not really unhappy with it, I would just prefer it the old way. I am a big fan of measuring the results; I understand that there are restrictions on what the official conversion can do, and that those who are making the official conversion want it to mesh with the existing system as much as possible. The former reason would be enough for me to use PrCs and feats, but I would prefer to make a more powerful base defiler class.
Read the FAQ. http://www.athas.org/faq. It's stated quite clearly why we cannot retain imbalance between any elements in a D&D 3E conversion, especially the part about a new d20 conversion vs. D&D 3E conversion.
I know. I have read the faq, and I understand why you can't change it; you have to opperate under Wizard's rules, and you think this is the best way. It isn't how I would do it, personally, but if you note, this entire conversation started out with the applications of defilers and alternate energy sources for necros and shadow mages, and grew out from there.
You contradict yourself. First you say we need to keep imbalance, and then you use an example with balanced elements (LA and ECL). Your racial power argument is moot, seeing half-giants make up but small percentages of the total populations in all city-states, so even if one 2E half-giant could take down three humans, the humans would still win by sheer strength in numbers. In 3E a half-giant and an equivalent ECL human character would have a 50-50 chance of either winning. In 2E it wasn't so. The half-giant was supreme. Thus half-giants were superior warriors, just as defilers were superior wizards. You must understand that classes must be balanced just as races have to be in D&D 3E. It is a fundamental design principle.
Not really. If you wanted to you could keep the racial imbalances you can do so quite easily -- just chop of the LA. I wouldn't, because I don't think that racial imbalances were a big part of the rules, but that is just my opinion. As for the half-giant population limit, that is somewhat ironic given the description of half-giants in the XPH, but then again I consider that description invalid. I also wasn't refering to just half-giants, but thri-kreen as well, who could quite successfully wage a rather nasty gorilla war against a city state if they banded together. Further, that mention of take over was a reference to themeatic settings, not what would happen on Athas. My point was that the greater power of defiling was a large part of the setting of Dark Sun, while the racial imbalances were not, so I saw no reason that they needed to be included. My motives here is pragmatism vs. setting; I consider defiler power a large enough part of the setting to warrant messing with the system, but not racial imbalances. Restoring racial imbalances, ironically, would be incredibly easy, but was not that big of a part of the setting IMO.
Your argument falls flat in that the Dark Side is not more powerful in Star Wars D20. Check the Force Point tables.
The dark side is more powerful at lower levels at the light side is more powerful at higher levels is Star Wars D20 revised. The dark side also offers more offensive force powers, but few defensive powers. The general allure of the dark side, however, is the "freedom" from ethical concerns and discipline, but I find the comparison apt. It isn't by any means exact, but the Jedi face their temptation with the dark side, and preservers face their temptation with defiling; in the case of the Jedi, the carrot is the "freedom", while with the preserver there is an actual, tangible power difference.
Jon out.
My question is this: if creating an intrinsically more powerful class for 2nd edition isn't a problem, then why is it a problem to recreate an intrinsically more powerful class for 3rd edition? I am quite aware that it doesn't fit exactly in the 3rd edition rules, but rules are made to serve the game, not vice-versa.
Ok, that's what's clouding your vision: ignorance.
Classes in 3E CANNOT be more powerful than other classes.
Any design has to FIT EXACTLY in the 3rd edition rules, even if it means altering 2E flavor elements.
You say "but rules are made to serve the game, not vice-versa" which is true for 3E settings but not for conversions of 2E settings: some sacrifices HAVE to be made to match CURRENT rules (even Forgotten Realms had some serious changes to its normally sacro-saint setting).
Allowing changes to the rules that create imbalances is reserved for d20 conversions of DS. DS3 is a 3E conversion of DS. There's a difference, rules to follow.
My racial power difference example shows that there is nothing unique to the "defiler more powerful than preserver" concept. There are just as many people out there who have complained that half-giants and thri-kreen are more balanced now, that you can't get the multiple über wild talents any more, that kinetic control is now an epic level spell versus a psionic power etc compared to 2E. Just because *you* choose to emphasize class power differences and ignore the other element power differences (such as races), and cling to your theory proven too narrow, does not leave your theory nor your flawed 3rd edition application of it more credit ("Defilers should have a CR multiplier of 1.25").
None of these theories have any real credit. This is a game conversion. It is all about opinions; there is no "right way" to do this, just what makes people happy. The game rules serve the setting, not vice-versa, and if person X believes that Y should be part of the rules, and wants to take the time to change them, so what? I was never argueing to get you to change your the official conversion -- I knew that would never happen, and you couldn't/wouldn't do it.
If anyone wanted to retain all of the imbalances from 2nd edition, it would be rather easy, as I said -- just axe the LA and ECL system and run character level off of HD and class levels alone. Some people feel that having half-giants and thri-kreen being more powerful that the other races was a big part of the setting. I disagree. While thri-kreen and half-giants were more powerful than the average human, the comparison was a macro -- it was a comparison of the masses. The average thri-kreen "commoner" is ECL 4, the average human commoner is ECL 1, and the average half-giant commoner is ECL 2 (and was obviously notched down in power from 2nd edition). So I don't think that there really isn't any great deviation from the setting, since the average human is less powerful than the average Thri-kreen, just like the average human is less powerful than the average mind flayer or archon or glabrezu. The ECL system is more about balance between the players and to give each race equal footing; in 2nd edition, if you were going for raw power as a gladiator, fighter, etc., the general choice was thri-kreen. Now that disparity does not exist between players, so there is no reason to pick one race over the other. So, even if one is a big fan of the different power levels between the diffrent races, the setting power disparity between thri-kreen, half-giants, and everyone else is preserved because it holds true on a macro level, but isn't really part of the game on the micro level, where the PCs opperate.
I do feel that having more powerful defilers was a bigger part of the setting, however, and not having that power intrinsic to the class is somewhat a deviation. The concern of player power goes out the window, since under any system that truely preserves defilers in one form or another, the defiler is going to be more powerful than the base wizard class one way or another -- you admit yourself that. The difference we share is that you want/must make the defiler more powerful by working within the boundries of feats and PrCs, while I would just as well designed a more powerful base class. The greater power is the carrot to the stick of using the "dark side" of magic; you can't be good and people hate you even more.
By all means, do whatever modification you want to your own game, but Athas will be a frozen arctic setting before the core wizard class is split in two and the defiler gets a CR multiplier of 1.25 in the official conversion.
Which I am quite aware of. I was never thought that there would be any changes to the official conversion. It is just what I would do.
Ok, that's what's clouding your vision: ignorance.
Classes in 3E CANNOT be more powerful than other classes.
Any design has to FIT EXACTLY in the 3rd edition rules, even if it means altering 2E flavor elements.
You say "but rules are made to serve the game, not vice-versa" which is true for 3E settings but not for conversions of 2E settings: some sacrifices HAVE to be made to match CURRENT rules (even Forgotten Realms had some serious changes to its normally sacro-saint setting).
Ironically, I would say that what limits your vision is ignornance. You seem to be stuck with this idea that you have to follow the rules of 3e. No design has to fit exactly with the 3rd edition rules as long as it creates the desired results. Now, it might be more difficult to go around the rules in this fasion, but there is no intrinsict reason why it should not be done that is not totally based on opinions. The reason why the setting is sacrificed to the rules is because Wizards wants to have their settings to be exactly the same rules wise so one character/monster/feature/whatever can "warp" between settings, and believes this to be more important than setting integrity. I'm not here to judge that; it certainly makes their products more useful for the general gamer. For example, you could take any FR specific feat, change the fluff a little, and make it work in any other setting. I, however, am not really worried about "warping" materials between settings. Any official conversion has to be concerned with standardization for this reason, but the lone gamer does not.
Allowing changes to the rules that create imbalances is reserved for d20 conversions of DS. DS3 is a 3E conversion of DS. There's a difference, rules to follow.
It's semantics and goal setting, as I stated above. An official 3E setting has to mesh totally with all other 3E settings, because that's the goal of the "3E" name -- everything is a block that fits in square holes of over-arching rules comformitty, the GURPS of D&D, if you will. I would personally prefer a "d20" conversion that was truer to the setting than the rules, but this is, again, a matter of opinion and taste.
Well Wintergreen, the energy gathering process in my campaign is visible to the naked eye as a mirage-like green or golden shimmer. I like it that mages can be identified and it doesn't take long for them to be lynched if they're in public be they preserver or defiler.
As for defilers being weaker or not, I like them the way they are with Athas.org: balanced. (Oh! I'm being a suck-up, ain't I? :D )
PB
Thanks PB. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks life should be difficult for all wizards on Athas ;)
So do you have any rulings for the area of effect of that 'shimmer', how noticeable it is or what ca be done to conceal it? So far I've kept it pretty much unconcealable without some clever tactics from the wizard.
BTW where des the gold shimmer idea come from? In Defilers & Preservers the Colour of Magic sidebar only mentions green energy and it only talks about drawing plant energy? Was there ever anything written about the colour of dragon/avangion magic?
Objulen, I'd prefer a more setting faithful conversion too but unfortuantely the rules laid down by wizard for athas.org being the official conversion site mean that they cannot do such a d20 version of Dark Sun as they are producing a 3e D&D conversion. A subtle difference but one that seems to have a big effect on wizards in the setting. We've had discussions and arguments about this on the boards for quite a few years now but the bottom line is always the conditions laid down by wizards. So we have athas.org producing a 3e D&D conversion and then a few people like us adapting/transforming/adding elements to bring it into a d20 form that fits our visions of Athas. I'm afraid arguing with Jon isn't going to change that because even if he wanted to, he can't. You're going to have to settle with talking baout unofficial versions of defilers, etc
Failing that you can develop your own d20 defiler conversion, and if its good you're guaranted a lot of takers.
The #1 homebrew change that the people that posted on this board said they introduced is one form or other of a more powerful defiler.
#2 I think is alternate rules like those found in Unearthed Arcana, like armor as damage reduction, vitality and wound points and such.
Wintergreen, I'm the one who introduced the gold color thing earlier in the thread. Its not the color of dragon magic per say, it rather the color of animal life energy, just like plant life energy is green. Its from the last chapters of The Verdant Passage.
Wintergreen, I'm the one who introduced the gold color thing earlier in the thread. Its not the color of dragon magic per say, it rather the color of animal life energy, just like plant life energy is green. Its from the last chapters of The Verdant Passage.
Ah, thanks. I'll have to check out the book when I get home. I was curious about any 'official' reference to it. IIRC didn't the 2e rules talk about both dragons and avangions being able to use animal life energy for casting spells? I wonder what the difference would be between them?
Quick question to those who have preservers actually having to gather energy, what do you think it feels like to people within the gathering area? Almost as painful as a defiler? A slight 'tickle'? A tugging at their own life force?
Quick question to those who have preservers actually having to gather energy, what do you think it feels like to people within the gathering area? Almost as painful as a defiler? A slight 'tickle'? A tugging at their own life force?
I figure it would just be like feeling worn out and/or tired...
So do you have any rulings for the area of effect of that 'shimmer', how noticeable it is or what ca be done to conceal it? So far I've kept it pretty much unconcealable without some clever tactics from the wizard.
Other than the bluff check, if they want to conceal it... no. Although if they manage to come up with a good solution for concealing the gathering for the situation they are in (and it doesn't look too suspicious), I'll forego the roll.
BTW where des the gold shimmer idea come from? In Defilers & Preservers the Colour of Magic sidebar only mentions green energy and it only talks about drawing plant energy? Was there ever anything written about the colour of dragon/avangion magic?
Yep, like Penn said...
Ah weel, it seems to me that you guys want things to be far too easy for preservers on Athas. Having the act of energy gathering look the same for both defilers and preservers seems to reflect the unfairness of life on Athas to me. From the way preserving is described here I wonder why there is any stigma attached to being a preserver. It seems that they are engaged in a different process to defilers so they could do it quite openly. A major element of the background for me was always that preservers suffer the prejudice against defilers despite the fact that they have found a plant friendly way to gather energy for spellcasting. But it looks like defiling, which is why people don't know of the existence of preservers and just see wizards as being synonomous with defilers. I always took it that such was the way the setting worked (from the 2nd ed rules and the novels). Guess my vision of Athas where all wizards are afraid to reveal their powers to others and visibly gather energy is too harsh for others!
As I see the problem is that you can't have all the cookie at the same time.
If you are going with visible energy gathering (both for preservers and defilers) it's hard to belive how you can hide it. Based on the description it's like a storm of lightning, so putting your hands behind your back or close to the earth is not enough. Even with a 1st level spell the affected area is so big that you can't hide the ribbons of life with your body. Not to mention if you think back an older topic from here: preservers has to collect the energy from a much bigger area than a defiler, ergo the life energy is even more visible. So spellcasting logically can't be hidden by a Bluff check, but not even with still/silent spell feats, as the energy gathering remains visible even then.
If you are going with invisible energy gathering (again, for both defilers and preservers), and there is only the defiler ash you have hard time to explain the "public doesn't make difference between preservers and defilers" thing. As for people without the proper training (=spellcraft skill) can't see the difference between a cleric, a wizard and a psion.
We use method 2, and if it's problem comes up the DM uses mob reactions: if somebody "cry witch" then there is no further proof needed, the lynch party is on.
It's definitely not an option to have differently visible energy gathering method for defilers than for preservers, this part should be the same for them, either way is choosen.
Yeah, you're more than welcome Objulen to help the community develop homebrew aids to make the DS3 defiler more like in the novels or as in the earlier 2E setting.
Failing that you can develop your own d20 defiler conversion, and if its good you're guaranted a lot of takers.
Which is what I will probably do next time I find a group of players who want to play a DS game and are willing to do some testing. Right now, though, getting a game going is proving a bit difficult. Alas.
The #1 homebrew change that the people that posted on this board said they introduced is one form or other of a more powerful defiler.
#2 I think is alternate rules like those found in Unearthed Arcana, like armor as damage reduction, vitality and wound points and such.
I honestly do favor vitality and wound points in general, though this is niether here nor there, for the realism; you get hit in the head with an axe, but you survive with your brains hanging out becuase you're level 15 and not level 3? Right.....