Originally posted by Cam Banks
No, they couldn't. Only one patron deity per soul, thank you for playing, etc.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
See, absolutes don't cut it for me unless there is a plausible reason for it. If you refuse to give me a solid reason other than 2e game mechanics and "canon", then it feels hollow and ultimately doesn't satisfy.
It's not 2e game mechanics and canon, it's the way souls work in the Dragonlance setting. Each individual may only have one patron deity, one relationship exclusive to and reaping the rewards gained by that singular divine patron. One cannot be both a cleric of Reorx and a cleric of Shinare, even if they have similar or complementary realms of influence. Similarly, one cannot be both a ranger with spells gained from Habbakuk and a cleric of Majere, or a druid of Chislev and a Red Robed wizard of the Orders of High Sorcery. One can revere more than one god, and in fact most people do in daily life and in their honoring of various gods for their role in mundane activities from harvests (Chislev) to safety at sea (Zeboim). But reverence and devotion are two different things.
You outlined a long thesis which more or less agrees with everything I have previously said and submitted as rationale behind how sorcery and wild magic in general works. Chaos' influence at distinct points in Krynn's history has made it so that the wild magic is "closer" or within the reach of mortals to draw upon it for spells, even though some races and creatures have been able to draw on Krynn's primal magic the whole time (such as dragons). This adjustment of magic, this suffusion with Chaos' power, is the reason it's incompatible with the pure magic redirected by the gods and used by wizards and clerics. Again, you give some plausible reasons for that, echoing (in some detail) what has already gone before.
The problem we encounter is that a Wizard of High Sorcery has, in commitment to the Orders and one of the gods which govern the magic, chosen a patron deity. This choice rules out a similar unique relationship with any other god, any relationship strong enough to gain power in return. No WoHS/spellcasting rangers, no WoHS/druids. Reverence and honor for the other gods is fine, but that's the extent of it, for the individual who has passed the Test, embraced the truth of the magic and aligned himself with a divine patron has made the choice not to get his magic from another god.
You're correct in thinking that a renegade or dabbler is perfectly capable of multiclassing with druid, cleric, whatever. Forswearing the gods of magic for another divine patron means giving up the influences and benefits of such a commitment, and when their knowledge of wizard magic is great enough they threaten the stability and order of the magic as you say. But they might not care, since they have their own additional bonuses from their devotion to the other god.
Hence, one soul, one patron deity. Does this commitment and devotion to a god rule out the use of mysticism? I feel it very well may, for mysticism is an acceptance of a singular and abiding faith in something other than the gods in order to draw power from Krynn's living web of magic, the interconnected chain of soul-sparks and life-forces around the planet. Citadel Mystics had their faith in the memory of the gods, not the gods themselves, and once the gods returned they needed to make the choice - continue using mysticism through the filter of remembered divinity, or embrace the true power of the restoration of the heavens. Too, a Wizard of High Sorcery who also practiced mysticism needed to choose between surrendering himself to divinity (and reaping the rewards) or maintaining his mystical paradigm. The two are exclusive, each demanding that part of a person's soul which aligns itself in accordance to a singular faith.
Thus, multiclassing mystics with any other class that requires a patron deity is not possible. Multiclassing any two classes that require two different patron deities is also impossible. Neither is a 2nd edition throwback, but a statement of the way magic works in the Dragonlance setting and the path of souls laid out in the Tobril.
Cheers,
Cam
Look at the Knights of Solamnia; a Solamnic Knight that hopes to become a Rose Knight will have to continue to shift his main alliance from Habbakuk to Kiri-Jolith to Paladine. At the end of his journey the Solamnic knight will be the wiser for it. Sure, he’ll probably only worship Paladine now, but there is nothing wrong with holding the aforementioned gods in the same high regard.
For the exception of the God of Darkness (who know no mercy), the Gods will probably not take any offence to a character that shares his faith with an ally god who also shares a similar viewpoint, especially if the character stays true to his path and advances their dogma.
I guess I see sorcery and mysticism as pretty similar. The only difference to me is one is divine and the other is arcane. They both come from within. A person finds that he has the power to create wonderful things and wills them to happen. I think of them as just two sides of a coin, both connected, but they just are a little different.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It's not 2e game mechanics and canon, it's the way souls work in the Dragonlance setting. Each individual may only have one patron deity, one relationship exclusive to and reaping the rewards gained by that singular divine patron. One cannot be both a cleric of Reorx and a cleric of Shinare, even if they have similar or complementary realms of influence.
Okay, but why? Give me the story if you're going to provide an opinion. Flesh out the picture so that I'm not reading a dusty legal text, but a living relationship between the diety and the worshipper.
For example, did you know I have the belief that Krynnish gods do not truly grant divine magic at all? What they do instead is provide the divine revelation that allows for mortals to unlock their true nature. The difference between mysticism and clerical magic is that mysticism is really the path of salvation and revelation walked alone.
Mysticism is the other side of the coin to clerical magic, the same way that wild sorcery is the other side of the coin to high sorcery. Thus, I'm pretty content to allow for ecenumical clerical orders outside of the Holy Order of the Stars, such as the Knights of the Sword.
If you want me to play along with what you want the clerics and wizards to be, you have to make me dream. I have to feel the sanctity of krynnish clerical life, just as the magic of Krynn has to feel wonderous.
Besides, relying on authority to make all your points doesn't answer the little questions. Like, if you can only follow one god, why can you become a cleric of any diety after reading The Disks of Mishakal? Why could Guerrand become a wizard and a cleric of Chislev? Why exactly do some gods have a problem with mortals being devoted to more than one diety? If it is not the jealousy of the gods, what is it about the relationship that makes devotion to only one god possible? All questions that have to be answered.
You outlined a long thesis which more or less agrees with everything I have previously said and submitted as rationale behind how sorcery and wild magic in general works.
Yeah, that was deliberate. The simple fact is, it needs to be done if the setting is to have any depth or life into it. You have to feel like something vast and wonderful is going on. Not everyone considers the rules mechanics to be interesting, and enough of an explanation in and of themselves. I have to feel awe of the gods, and the holy ascension of my character's soul, not feel like I'm being given magic like a dog is given a scoop full of canned gloop into his dish.
This adjustment of magic, this suffusion with Chaos' power, is the reason it's incompatible with the pure magic redirected by the gods and used by wizards and clerics. Again, you give some plausible reasons for that, echoing (in some detail) what has already gone before.
Yeah, again, the plausible reasons are important. One needs plausible to have credibility. You can't simply have an absolute declaration and expect it to stick.
The problem we encounter is that a Wizard of High Sorcery has, in commitment to the Orders and one of the gods which govern the magic, chosen a patron deity. This choice rules out a similar unique relationship with any other god, any relationship strong enough to gain power in return.
See, here I disagree. They've chosen the magic, not a patron diety. They may choose to worship the lunar dieties, but they do not need to. They simply aren't granted magic like clerics are. They study their spells. The magic is an art, not a blessing or even a privelege.
No WoHS/spellcasting rangers, no WoHS/druids. Reverence and honor for the other gods is fine, but that's the extent of it, for the individual who has passed the Test, embraced the truth of the magic and aligned himself with a divine patron has made the choice not to get his magic from another god.
Yeah, see, we can't continue the conversation until we deal with this. I do not beleive Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari control or grant magic in any way. I beleive they are a part of magic and have influenced it, but they do not influence it on the level of the individual mage. Wizards of High Sorcery are not arcane spellcasting clerics, they are wizards.
If we cannot agree on that, the debate is stalled. Pretty much keeps me from commenting on the rest of your post too, for you assume the opposite of what I do on these two matters.
1) Whether or not the moon gods can pull the plug on magic.
2) Whether or not the moon gods grant magic to mages in much the same way that clerics are granted magic by their dieties.
Originally posted by True_Blue
I know I said it in the other thread, but I still don't see how a cleric/mystic isn't possible. I don't buy the "you can only believe in yourself or in a higher power..not both".
Majere is a great supporter of monks and monastic orders, whose power ultimately comes from mysticism. It makes sense because he is the god most directly concerned with enlightenment.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Dungeon and Dragons has never been about monotheism, and if you can find a middle ground you can dedicate your soul to the service of two or more gods. What is wrong with playing a Silvanesti White Robe abjurer, who is also a dedicated healer of Mishakal? I recall in the Defenders of Magic trilogy a character that was a member of the Tower of High Sorcery and a druid of Chislev.
Dragonlance has never been about monotheism, but it has been about exclusionary and singular worship of a single deity by clerics and those who are granted spells by the gods since day one. This is why Goldmoon is a cleric of Mishakal and Elistan a cleric of Paladine, rather than being "clerics of Light" or some such looser devotion.
And Bram diThon was not a druid of Chislev. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by pddisc
What would you say about a bard/cleric of Branchala? Or just any sorcerer/cleric hybrid? Would this be an acceptable spellcasting cross? What about the levels of ranger without spells? Would these be acceptable to multiclass with?
You could easily have a bard/cleric of Branchala. Sorcerers do not require any devotion to a philosophy, faith tradition, or other such thing, and arcane magic and divine magic can work together regardless of whether one or both are ambient.
A ranger/sorcerer or ranger/bard would be possible, just as a druid/sorcerer or druid/bard would be possible. You couldn't have a ranger/mystic or druid/mystic, however (divine magic of two different types) or a sorcerer/wizard (arcane magic of two different types). A sorcerer/bard on the other hand is fine, since both classes use ambient arcane magic.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
For example, did you know I have the belief that Krynnish gods do not truly grant divine magic at all? What they do instead is provide the divine revelation that allows for mortals to unlock their true nature. The difference between mysticism and clerical magic is that mysticism is really the path of salvation and revelation walked alone.
You know that line you gave me about not being able to get past something until we deal with it? Right back at you here with this. The gods do grant divine magic to their devotees - if you've got an alternate take on it and want to continue this discussion with that as your assumption, of course we're going to fail to meet in the middle.
If you want me to play along with what you want the clerics and wizards to be, you have to make me dream. I have to feel the sanctity of krynnish clerical life, just as the magic of Krynn has to feel wonderous.
Trust me Terry, I don't think I have it in me to make you dream of the sanctity of life.
Yeah, see, we can't continue the conversation until we deal with this. I do not beleive Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari control or grant magic in any way. I beleive they are a part of magic and have influenced it, but they do not influence it on the level of the individual mage. Wizards of High Sorcery are not arcane spellcasting clerics, they are wizards.
Okay, I'll clear this up a little. When you pass the Test, and make that choice of alignments, you become part of the bigger picture, as it were. You are aligned with one of the gods of Magic, moreso than you were when you hadn't undergone the Test. Its a commitment which brings focus, understanding, and reception to the deity's influences over you and the magic you weild. Your spells don't come from the god directly like a cleric, but you do establish that relationship. The Gods of Magic don't have clerics, because they have voluntarily given up that role in the pantheon in order to maintain the arcane energies of Krynn and its practitioners. The influence of the moon phases, additional benefits of spell enhancement and the like, these are a result of the wizard's commitment to that aspect of magic governed by the deity. Turn away from that, and you lose those benefits, and become a "standard" wizard again.
That's the plug being pulled. Your spells are still there, you still know how to prepare them and draw upon that arcane magic the moons radiate to the world. But that link is missing, which for many wizards would be akin to sacrificing something deeply personal and heartfelt.
It's that link, and others like it between clerics and their gods (who *do* grant the power to clerics to cast spells, and can switch it off if the cleric fails in their devotion) which is exclusive and cannot be interrupted by devotion to another god. You cannot maintain more than one link, one personal relationship - not because the gods are jealous, but because the understanding from the very beginning of creation was that a soul seeks out divinity along a path into the afterlife, and the path is laid by faith in one god.
Bottom line is - remember that line from a certain book you're familiar with, "thou shalt have no other god before me?" It's not because the higher power feels jealousy, despite what you may have read. It's because to embrace that philosophy, to become part of that faith, and to devote yourself fully in order to establish a more spiritual and committed relationship to the god, you can't place any other deity or power between you.
Cheers,
Cam
You fond of saying that Bram DiThon was neither a druid nor a cleric. If he is neither of those things, then how was he drawing power from Chislev? We have a clear example from a book that seems to give a character two different sorts of magic. One might say that it was all "fairy-magic (some unknowable mystery)," but the link to Chislev is stated. It is even more interesting that it occured before the War of the Lance.
But if Palin is a special case because he died and the Gods of Magic granted him life again, then since they've never stripped magic from anyone before, then I tend to belief that under most circumstances, they simply cannot do it.
Raistlin was another exception, but he willingly gave up Magic to re-enter the world to help against Chaos. So I think that was again another agreement, between mortal and Gods. on the condition that he gives up magic he can re-enter the world.
So I'm not entirely convinced that the Gods of Magic can strip people of Magic, they would have done so before if they could.
Originally posted by Dannelle
You fond of saying that Bram DiThon was neither a druid nor a cleric. If he is neither of those things, then how was he drawing power from Chislev? We have a clear example from a book that seems to give a character two different sorts of magic. One might say that it was all "fairy-magic (some unknowable mystery)," but the link to Chislev is stated. It is even more interesting that it occured before the War of the Lance.
Bram had an understanding of fey magic which he was able to draw upon and use in conjunction with his wizard magic. It was said that he had fey blood, from the tuatha, but it gets confusing. That particular series was written prior to a lot of the later conglomeration of ideas on how things work with regard to types of magic, and so I would expect that some slight retroactive effort will need to be made to accomodate unique individuals like Bram.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by True_Blue
I know I said it in the other thread, but I still don't see how a cleric/mystic isn't possible. I don't buy the "you can only believe in yourself or in a higher power..not both". I could see a person who worshipped a higher being and receiving spells for his reverence and also believe in himself and feeling the spark deep down and causing wonderful things to happen.
I guess I see sorcery and mysticism as pretty similar. The only difference to me is one is divine and the other is arcane. They both come from within. A person finds that he has the power to create wonderful things and wills them to happen. I think of them as just two sides of a coin, both connected, but they just are a little different.
But they don't both come from within.
Sorcerors and Wizards are both doing the same thing, just in different ways: they're manipulating the ambient magical energy that is loose in the world.
Clerics and Mystics are different. Their power is directed, not ambient. A cleric receives their power directly from a god to whom they are connected by true faith. A mystic draws their power through their own spirit by believing in themself.
While it is possible for a mystic to venerate a deity. They cannot give themselves 100% to that deity, which is what they must do in order to become a cleric.
When you're a spellcaster who has a connection with the gods, or one that gains power from faith in something else (ala a mystic), this is a path that requires total spiritual devotion.
The Orders of High Sorcery demand nothing less than complete devotion to the magic and, by association, the gods of magic. This doesn't make them clerics, but it does require them to have devotion.
Likewise, divine spellcasters who gain their power from a god must be completely dedicated to the god.
Mystics don't have to follow a god, but they do have to have total faith in something in order to have power.
This isn't to say that these classes cannot multiclass. The key, though, is that you can only be devoted spiritually to one deity when you play a wizard, cleric, druid, ranger, paladin, or mystic.
The new Dungeon and Dragons is about options, and I feel that while Dragonlance is more limiting, it doesn’t have to be.
I once played a cleric of Sirrion and Red Robe wizard. Now bare in mind, this was before 3rd Edition, there where no sorcerers around, which I would have chosen now for the concept. To continue with my example, this Red Robe was completely devoted to the teachings of Sirrion and become a wizard to “expand” the scope of what one could do with the fires of creativity and creation. To him the flames he wielded as a cleric of Sirrion where divine, while the pyrotechnics he summoned as a wizard where merely “alchemical” or “scientific” tools he used to expand his horizons.
Devoted wizards of the Tower might have sneered at him for just being a dabbler, but the fact remains that he did past the Test, he is a Wizard of High Sorcery, and while he gives his “respects” to the Veil Maiden, his heart belongs to Sirrion.
If you enforce the Wizards of High Sorcery as a spiritual order completely devoted to their deities and magic then you are closing the door on countless character possibilities.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
If you enforce the Wizards of High Sorcery as a spiritual order completely devoted to their deities and magic then you are closing the door on countless character possibilities.
The truth of this is that you'll play whatever you like regardless of whether the book says you can or not. Within the bounds of this discussion, for the most part I'm chiming in with the "official" point of view, one which doesn't come knocking on your door and force yo at gunpoint to stop playing your kender paladin/White Robe/monk/sorcerer.
So with that out of the way, it's fine to recognize that the setting's going to have just those limitations on countless possibilities as written. That's why I go on like I do.
For the record, one of my players plays a half-afflicted kender favored soul of Habbakuk, who casts spells spontaneously like a mystic. That's something out of left field, given the assumption that spontaneous caster = ambient magic.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I don’t believe that you have to be spiritually devoted when you play a wizard. Granted, the majority of the wizards in Krynn give themselves to the magic on a fanatical scale, and by default the deity of magic they practice.
“Spiritually devoted” was a poor choice of words of mine where wizards are concerned. You have the right idea that wizards give themselves to the magic, and by default the moon gods.
The new Dungeon and Dragons is about options, and I feel that while Dragonlance is more limiting, it doesn’t have to be.
Those who know me know that I fully believe in options. I mean, who else would support using Monte Cook’s alternate bard in Krynn? ;)
When I first was dealing with DL in 3e during the Nexus’ early years, I wanted as many options as well. What I discovered is that some limitations help to define a world. The key is to make sure you don’t overdo limitations, while also maintaining world flavor.
Devoted wizards of the Tower might have sneered at him for just being a dabbler, but the fact remains that he did past the Test, he is a Wizard of High Sorcery, and while he gives his “respects” to the Veil Maiden, his heart belongs to Sirrion.
I don’t really recommend players playing a wizard/cleric in DL, but if you are going to, the key is that they pass the Test of High Sorcery and use magic responsibly. That’s the very heart of the matter.
If you enforce the Wizards of High Sorcery as a spiritual order completely devoted to their deities and magic then you are closing the door on countless character possibilities.
Again, ignore the poor use of the word “spiritual”.
This is a point that I have difficulties with. On the one hand, we see wizards who obviously show tendencies towards other classes. For example, Dunbar Mastermate (?) from Dragons of Summer Flame obviously had some sort of mariner background.
At the same time, wizards are supposed to give of themselves fully to the magic. They must be completely dedicated.
Part of me says that the multiclass restrictions for paladins and monks should be applied to the WoHS prestige class, with the stipulation that they can only multiclass with classes that continue their progression with the power of High Sorcery.
Yet part also says that they passed the Test, and therefore will use magic responsibly. They may advance as a wizard slower than others, but so long as they don’t give up magic, who cares?
As Cam says, do what you want in your games. What is presented in the rulebooks are a guideline to follow, nothing more. Every game is different, as are the players who play them. Do what feels right to you.
And when you have characters like Bram (thank you for the name) and Gilthanas going around with magic and devoting themselves to various goals and ideals you can't expect us to believe that the Path of High Sorcery is so narrow that it has room only for the devotion of one deity or magic alone.
On a side note Gilthanas has been called merely a dabbler, but last time I checked he was a 6th Wizard. Casting lightning bolts and fireballs goes beyond “dabbling”.
I don’t want to get into the whole metaphysical aspects of magic, I couldn’t possibly follow up on ferratus post, and he did a well job already in covering those points, but I have to state again that officially the Wizards of High Sorcery are left open to interpretation on the point of devoting themselves spiritually to another higher force and magic.
I don’t think you have to be cleric to state that your primary believe is in a single deity, and I can easily see a White Robe Silvanesti who is completely devoted to Paladine. Just like some Black Robe mages in the War of the Lance gave themselves spiritually to the Dark Queen.
If the book said Wizards of High Sorcery cannot multiclass because of their total devotion to the magic that would have shut me up for good.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I don’t want to get into the whole metaphysical aspects of magic, I couldn’t possibly follow up on ferratus post, and he did a well job already in covering those points, but I have to state again that officially the Wizards of High Sorcery are left open to interpretation on the point of devoting themselves spiritually to another higher force and magic.
The good news is that a lot of this sort of thing will very likely be addressed and clearly accounted for in the Towers of High Sorcery book early next year. Questions regarding the nature of magic and how it works and relates to the world of Krynn will no doubt get answered.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
But I think that the Wizards of High Sorcery and their “complete” devotion to magic is not so clearly define in the book that it remains open to interpretation.
Agreed. Perhaps Towers of High Sorcery will delve more into this.
And when you have characters like Bram (thank you for the name) and Gilthanas going around with magic and devoting themselves to various goals and ideals you can't expect us to believe that the Path of High Sorcery is so narrow that it has room only for the devotion of one deity or magic alone.
Yet Soulforge and Brothers in Arms presents a view of magic that says that one must be fully dedicated to the magic, which ties into the gods of magic as well.
What we’ve both done is take an example, both supposedly canon, to prove our respective contradictory points. Which one holds more weight? Which one is canon?
On a side note Gilthanas has been called merely a dabbler, but last time I checked he was a 6th Wizard. Casting lightning bolts and fireballs goes beyond “dabbling”.
I’ve seen various stats for Gilthanas, many of which I feel are due to the rules on multiclassing in prior editions. Nothing has been said either way on whether he has taken the Test of High Sorcery or not. Being a dabbler…probably not.
…but I have to state again that officially the Wizards of High Sorcery are left open to interpretation on the point of devoting themselves spiritually to another higher force and magic.
Unfortunately, the DLCS was not the most clear on this.
Cam and I are not trying to be “DL police” here. We’re just trying to present Sov. Press’ view on magic in regards to multiclassing between spellcasting classes, and to help others understand the reasoning behind that view.
So take the views and opinions (key words) presented here, and see how they fit your own game. We all see DL differently, so you may find that your own views differ, and fit your group and personal opinions better.
I don’t think you have to be cleric to state that your primary believe is in a single deity, and I can easily see a White Robe Silvanesti who is completely devoted to Paladine. Just like some Black Robe mages in the War of the Lance gave themselves spiritually to the Dark Queen.
Ah, but Black Robe mages did not give themselves spiritually to Takhisis. They still were bond to Nuitari. The reason they followed the path of Takhisis is because Nuitari was following the path of Takhisis.
Note that in the Chaos War, when Nuitari opposed Takhisis due to the grey robed Thorn Knights, the Black Robes opposed the Knights of Takhisis as well.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Ah, but Black Robe mages did not give themselves spiritually to Takhisis. They still were bond to Nuitari. The reason they followed the path of Takhisis is because Nuitari was following the path of Takhisis.
Note that in the Chaos War, when Nuitari opposed Takhisis due to the grey robed Thorn Knights, the Black Robes opposed the Knights of Takhisis as well.
Hmm…. Good point. I concede.
I look forward to the Towers of High Sorcery and with luck we might have it by January. I won’t hold my breath though. We’ll see what the book offers… and what new debates will no doubt spark from it.
Once again, I reiterate that lunar dieties do not control magic in any way, but merely influence it passively by being connected to magic. Mages are bound to magic, the moon gods are bound to magic, but they are not bound to each other. Both the power of the moon gods and the robed mages wax and wane with cycles of the moons. The lunar dieties are teachers and allies, not masters. The devotion is to the magic itself.
Okay, Cam you've given me a reason why you should only have one patron diety, but how do you reconcile that reason with the fact that the gods are allied into three factions? The souls of the dead either ascend to the Dome of Creation, fall to the Abyss, go to the Hidden Vale or Reincarnate. So why is this a path laid out for the destiny of the soul in the afterlife? It seems to me the destiny of souls depends more on alignment of their worship than the particular god of the alignment they choose.
Then there is the fact that the Disks of Mishakal allow you to become the cleric of any good diety. You'd think that there would have to be a Disks of Paladine or Kiri-Jolith. Then there is the blended dieties of Taladas mainly Hiteh (Hiddukel-Chemosh), or Takhisis-Zeboim (goddess of the Shark men). Or the fact that Paladine and Majere are only male and female animas of an abstract force above good and evil, or that Zivilyn is considered an aspect of Gilean.
This can all be cleaned up and reconciled if you assume that divine power (unlike in other settings) rest with mortals, while the divine knowledge to use that power rests with the gods. Now that mortals have begun to understand their own power, it is the age of mortals. Then it doesn't matter if the Taladan religions and dieties are a little bent from the Ansalonian norm.
Finally, as for the source of mysticism, I am following the words of the Sage to Goldmoon when he said "Your faith and power still exists within you" or something like that." I agree with the sage there, because it just seems messy to grant magic outside of the mortal, when they can focus the inner magic of the mortal.
Originally posted by ferratus
Finally, as for the source of mysticism, I am following the words of the Sage to Goldmoon when he said "Your faith and power still exists within you" or something like that." I agree with the sage there, because it just seems messy to grant magic outside of the mortal, when they can focus the inner magic of the mortal.
Or...
"You have the power within you to tap into the life energies of the world."
Or is it that one taps into one's "divine spark"?
*shrugs*
There's a few different explanations on it, which mostly match up, but not always.
My thought is that all mortals have a divine spark within them - the essence of life itself. Everyone's divine spark creates living energy, which becomes a living web-net of energy known as mysticism. Those who have a strong basis in faith can draw that living energy through their own divine spark.
Mystics also draw upon the same cosmic forces as clerics, just through different means.
*shrugs*
Whether you believe that mysticism is one's own divine energy (which may or may not come from the gods), or that one draws upon the life energies of the world, the same principles apply.
One has to look within one's self in order to draw out divine magic.
In essence, what we have are different theories on how mysticism works, much like how there are different theories on things in our own world, such as the creation of the universe.
The fact that gods do not grant magic, but teach a variant form of mysticism is the only explanation I've seen thus far that seamlessly integrates the funky Taladan religions, mysticism and still keeps the Holy Order of the Stars' flavour intact. Divine revelation from the Disks of Mishakal brings back true healing. That's what we want right?
In a way I can sympathize. The Taladas and 5th Age teams should have made an effort to blend their own ideas into the canon more seamlessly. But there is no need to repeat their mistakes.
Originally posted by ferratus
Just a couple notes here.
Once again, I reiterate that lunar dieties do not control magic in any way, but merely influence it passively by being connected to magic. Mages are bound to magic, the moon gods are bound to magic, but they are not bound to each other. Both the power of the moon gods and the robed mages wax and wane with cycles of the moons. The lunar dieties are teachers and allies, not masters. The devotion is to the magic itself.
There's an influence which depends upon the connection which the gods of magic have with the magic. They're the cause of it, and they're the key to unlock the deeper secrets and resonances with it. Through Lunitari, illusion and transmutation are stronger. Through Solinari, divination and abjuration are stronger. This bond tends to diminish the power of the arcane schools associated with the other gods of magic, but that's the price of this alignment.
You could look at it like this. A wizard who has not taken the Test and aligned himself with one of the gods of magic has open access to magic, like a buffet. So long as he learns the right spells, studies hard, and invests his time in the practice, he can make use of it. For him, it's more of a tool than anything else, and he doesn't have much in the way of an emotional attachment to it. He has the inklings of that - the whispers of a deeper connection that he doesn't have. The buffet is there, but he can smell something else on the menu.
The Test forges a relationship between the wizard and the moon deity. The filter is stronger, the lens is more acute. The magic feels more like a living thing, as the experience of the Test has changed him. It's not a tool, it's something to cherish. The moon deity's patronage is like a tailored menu - some of the buffet items have been taken away, but you have a richer taste of the offerings in the god's kitchen.
Turn away from the god, or act contrary to the edicts that god has in place, and the kitchen door is closed. The menu is taken away, and the sense of loss is present. The buffet is still there, but somehow it isn't quite as good. The loss is even greater when the moon is absent, as we see with Palin - in this case, the mage is kicked out of the restaurant. Thankfully, this doesn't happen so long as the moons are present. The wizard can always help himself to the buffet.
Sorcery's more or less equivalent to being handed the keys to a number of larders and pantries by Chaos, the mad landlord, and told that you can go in there and make it yourself. Sorcerers don't have any relationship with the cook - they're the cook, and it's not exactly a bonding experience. Very talented sorcerers do a very good job with the basic ingredients. Less talented ones make something of a mess.
Okay, Cam you've given me a reason why you should only have one patron diety, but how do you reconcile that reason with the fact that the gods are allied into three factions? The souls of the dead either ascend to the Dome of Creation, fall to the Abyss, go to the Hidden Vale or Reincarnate. So why is this a path laid out for the destiny of the soul in the afterlife? It seems to me the destiny of souls depends more on alignment of their worship than the particular god of the alignment they choose.
The gods are allied into factions, but they're not a homogenous group. They don't so much bicker or fight among each other as the Olympians are known to, and indeed they get along fairly well (or at least, the Good and Neutral ones tend to) but devotion is not something which can be shared. Krynn's populace believes in and even reveres the gods as a group, but these are lay people. A priest needs to devote himself fully to one god alone, and thereby do that god's work.
Then there is the fact that the Disks of Mishakal allow you to become the cleric of any good diety. You'd think that there would have to be a Disks of Paladine or Kiri-Jolith. Then there is the blended dieties of Taladas mainly Hiteh (Hiddukel-Chemosh), or Takhisis-Zeboim (goddess of the Shark men). Or the fact that Paladine and Majere are only male and female animas of an abstract force above good and evil, or that Zivilyn is considered an aspect of Gilean.
Don't be sidetracked by the name of the Disks - Mishakal has a role in the pantheon of good as the goddess who brings understanding and knowledge to the people, so the disks have an association with her, but they are in truth the beginnings of a foundation of faith with any of the pantheon of Light. Once that foundation is met, and a deity with compatible interests is appealed, the Disks are no longer necessary. Elistan was converted overnight in meditation and consultation with the disks, and afterward they were considered a resource rather than the sum of clerical knowledge.
As for the interesting aspects of the gods, each of them is truly only associated with one deity. A cleric of Hiteh is likely given his magic by Hiddukel alone, not them both. It's incredibly unlikely, in fact, for the evil gods to work together in that fashion - they spend most of their time working as much against each other as they do against the gods of Light.
Finally, as for the source of mysticism, I am following the words of the Sage to Goldmoon when he said "Your faith and power still exists within you" or something like that." I agree with the sage there, because it just seems messy to grant magic outside of the mortal, when they can focus the inner magic of the mortal.
The Sage was Mirror, remember. A silver dragon with the power to work miracles of his own. Goldmoon's faith remained in the absence of the gods, and through Mirror's guidance she was able to draw upon that memory to access the power of the heart. Her framework was handily laid out for her, she just needed to direct it inwardly rather than appeal to the higher power she was used to.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Psionycx
Sorcerors and Wizards are both doing the same thing, just in different ways: they're manipulating the ambient magical energy that is loose in the world.
Clerics and Mystics are different. Their power is directed, not ambient. A cleric receives their power directly from a god to whom they are connected by true faith. A mystic draws their power through their own spirit by believing in themself.
Incorrect. High Sorcery and clerical power are both focused, while primal sorcery and mysticism are both ambient.
Originally posted by wolffenjugend
Is there a rule somewhere that says you can't multiclass a cleric with a ranger or any other combination of classes (based on religion)?
Just that multiclassing between divine spellcasting classes requires you to follow the same deity.
For example, a ranger/cleric would follow Habbakuk, Chislev, or Zeboim.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
There's an influence which depends upon the connection which the gods of magic have with the magic. They're the cause of it, and they're the key to unlock the deeper secrets and resonances with it. Through Lunitari, illusion and transmutation are stronger. Through Solinari, divination and abjuration are stronger. This bond tends to diminish the power of the arcane schools associated with the other gods of magic, but that's the price of this alignment.
Okay, I'm with you so far.
You could look at it like this. A wizard who has not taken the Test and aligned himself with one of the gods of magic has open access to magic, like a buffet. So long as he learns the right spells, studies hard, and invests his time in the practice, he can make use of it. For him, it's more of a tool than anything else, and he doesn't have much in the way of an emotional attachment to it. He has the inklings of that - the whispers of a deeper connection that he doesn't have. The buffet is there, but he can smell something else on the menu.
Okay, I had a similar analogy that I had thought up a couple days ago, involving a school cafeteria, and magic as mashed potatoes. Unfortunately it was an argument against your explanation of arcane magic. I simply don't like the lunar dieties preparing magic for consumption by the mages, as if the mages were ordering food from a menu. I want them to be more self-reliant. I want the magic to belong them, not the gods.
Oh well, let's assume that your way is the way it is.
Since the sorcerers are the ones who use the kitchen themselves, they take the role that the wizards take in other settings. They are the ones who study spell theories, toil in laboratories and discover and create new spells. For them, magic is a creative art. Fair enough, given that sorcerers currently don't have any flavour outside of their game mechanics to distinguish them from wizards on Krynn. So instead of bending the sorcerers, we bend the wizards a little, and turn them into a mystery cult.
See, for the wizards that means instead of researching and studying new spells they get it through revealed knowedge. Ancient spellbooks and direct revelation by the lunar dieties are the means in which the mages of Krynn receive their magical spells. In fact, instead of researching new spells, I am imagining them preparing themselves to entering a sacred space where the secrets of magic are given to them from the lips of the lunar gods themselves. That would restore wonder to magic that's been missing since the WoS (or even the 5th Age) for me. I mean, all this talk about focused and ambient magic is very, very dry. Nothing that conjours up any vivid imagery.
After all, sorcery and wizardry are the same magic, fundamentally. It was only that, in the 5th Age, the secrets that had been revealed to access high sorcery were not the secrets needed to unlock wild sorcery.
I'll deal with gods and divine magic in another thread.
Originally posted by ferratus
Since the sorcerers are the ones who use the kitchen themselves, they take the role that the wizards take in other settings. They are the ones who study spell theories, toil in laboratories and discover and create new spells. For them, magic is a creative art. Fair enough, given that sorcerers currently don't have any flavour outside of their game mechanics to distinguish them from wizards on Krynn. So instead of bending the sorcerers, we bend the wizards a little, and turn them into a mystery cult.
The Wizards of High Sorcery are a mystery cult - standard, non-WoHS wizards are not. They use magic as a tool, researching what has gone before, studying it within the limits of their own experiences of the magic without the additional influence of the Gods of Magic.
Sorcerers aren't quite like the wizards of other worlds - they don't spend anywhere near the same amount of time in laboratories. They hone their talents through practice and the sharing of technique and discovery. One of the reasons why Charisma is so important to them is that they are necessarily social creatures as well as needing to have a lot of self-confidence. Wizards who haven't passed the Test have many tools, rituals, the language of Magius, and thousands of years of research to draw upon, which means they can approach it much more like academics than artists.
Cheers,
Cam
Here's an analogy to help describe the difference between clerical magic and wizardly magic.
Let's say we have a bowl of water, and the water is magic. Clerics receive their magic from the gods, who give water as needed to the cleric. If the cleric displeases the god, then the god doesn't provide any more water/magic.
The gods of magic, on the other hand, leave the bowl of water so that the wizard can gain water any time that he needs. The gods of magic keep refilling that bowl, but it is up to the wizard to get the water.
I think the big hangup here is that you have arcane magic, which typically does not involve the gods, being granted by three gods. This doesn't mean that the wizards don't have to discover the nature of magic on their own. In fact, the gods of magic want you to discover the nature of magic on your own.
Sorcerers, on the other hand, don't need the gods of magic for their power. They can draw it themselves without spellbooks or arcane rights. It's their own force-of-will that allows them to channel the arcane energies left over from creation.
Wizards tend to be more lawful, while sorcerers tend to be more chaotic and independent.
The only real difference between wizards in Krynn and wizards in other worlds is the source of magic, in this case being the gods of magic. Yes, the gods do have some influence over magic, but moreso in the waxing and waning of the moons.
Cheers,
Cam
After that, why couldn't their purpose be making the magic flourish by encourging the gifted to take up magic, or by revealing the formulae for new magical spells?
Originally posted by ferratus
See, it cheapens the wizard's study to be independent if his source of magic is actively being created (and perhaps being witheld) by the gods.
The moon gods are simply a source. Would it cheapen the wizard if his magic came from a wishing well?
Dragonlance is one of the few (if not the only) setting I know of where a wizard's magic comes from gods. Just because the source is the gods, that does not mean that they dont' do wizardly things still. There's still self-discovery, spell study, ancient artifacts, etc. etc.
It is also completely unnecessary. Why do the gods need to actively and constantly create magic? Why couldn't they have simply created the ordered and focused magic at the moment of their incarnation?
Union rules. ;)
After that, why couldn't their purpose be making the magic flourish by encourging the gifted to take up magic, or by revealing the formulae for new magical spells?
This is still a big part of what moon gods do.
Terry, I get the impression (and perhaps I'm wrong here) that your big hang-up with the wizards is their connection to the moon gods. This type of connection can come across as being similar to the connection between a cleric and his god. Having Wild Sorcery in the mix makes it a bit more confusing as well.
I could go on about the nature of magic forever, but I think we're at the point where we're just doing circular reasoning.
Here's a thought for you, Terry. Perhaps, instead of approaching all 4 magics at once, approach 2 at a time - first with the WotL era with clerics and wizards, then during the early 5th age with mystics and sorcerers. I'm not sure if that would help or not.
Also, you may try breaking things down to the basics.
1. Clerics gain divine magic directly from the gods.
2. Mystics find divine magic within themselves.
3. Wizards gain arcane magic from the gods, although they must discover it themselves.
4. Sorcerers discover arcane magic independently, without the moon gods.
I don't know if those ideas will help or not. The key thing to remember is that the wizards are giving out a different type of magic than clerics, and that wizards have to learn this magic on their own. Clerics rely solely on their deity.
Hope that helps.
Originally posted by ferratus
See, it cheapens the wizard's study to be independent if his source of magic is actively being created (and perhaps being witheld) by the gods. It is also completely unnecessary.
Wizard magic is constantly being directed back to Krynn by the gods of magic, whose cycles are felt by those wizards who have aligned themselves to them. Unaligned (renegade or dabbler) wizards are unaffected by these cycles, don't have the additional focus and intensity of connection that aligned wizards do, and so for them it is more or less as if the magic is just there and they only need to learn progressively harder and harder rituals to access it.
I think Trampas has the right of it - you are hung up on the god's relationship to the aligned wizard, which is very different from the god's relationship to the devoted cleric. A cleric loses all power when he turns from his god - a wizard does not. What the wizard loses by turning from the god of magic to which he was aligned is that deeper connection to the currents and wavelengths of magic which that specific moon god resonates. In a sense, the connection blurs out of focus. The moon god isn't granting spells of any kind to the wizard, he's making the magic the wizard uses more focused and precise, more alive, more intoxicating in many cases.
Cheers,
Cam
You want the raw power that the wizards use to come from the gods, while they research and study the knowledge of how to cast spells.
I want the knowledge of how to cast spells to come from the gods (or as traditional lore found in spellbooks) while the raw power comes from the wizard's abilities and magical potential.
P.S. No, the gods don't need to be actively focusing magic. They focused magic by creating the moons of magic. The cycles of the moons put the magical energies of the world into order. It is done.
Originally posted by ferratus
No, the gods don't need to be actively focusing magic. They focused magic by creating the moons of magic. The cycles of the moons put the magical energies of the world into order. It is done.
Except that when the Gods of Magic and their moons aren't around, wizard magic doesn't work. Ontologically speaking, the gods of magic's existence creates this magic, their moons acting as lenses for the focusing of ambient magic back to Krynn. They don't just set the wheels turning and then sit back and watch.
Cheers,
Cam
Possibly with similar (or the same) effects, but the ritual itself would differ enough that they should not be able to use each others' scrolls.
Originally posted by TranquilDarkness
So, in the DL world, wizards and sorcerers cast completely different spells..?
Possibly with similar (or the same) effects, but the ritual itself would differ enough that they should not be able to use each others' scrolls.
The difference between sorcerers and wizards in Dragonlance is where the magic comes from. Otherwise, they cast the same types of spells, although in different ways. Wizards study from their spellbooks, while sorcerers don't need spellbooks.
Dragonlance can be confusing in that it has 4 types of magic. There are two arcane types and two divine types.
Originally posted by ferratus
You want the raw power that the wizards use to come from the gods, while they research and study the knowledge of how to cast spells.
I want the knowledge of how to cast spells to come from the gods (or as traditional lore found in spellbooks) while the raw power comes from the wizard's abilities and magical potential.
I don't think these are mutually exclusive.
The moon gods are the source of power, as well as the original teachers of magic. They said, "Here's the power, here's how to operate it, now you're on your own."
They do, of course, keep a watchful eye. lol Sorry, couldn't resist the pun.
So the gods of magic provide the magic, gave the original teachings at the Lost Citadel, and even served cupcakes.
It is still the wizard's own talents that allow him to access the power. Some are more gifted than others, and so are able to do greater feats with the magic.
Really, other than the source of magic and the waxing and waning of magic with the moons, the DL wizard is similar to wizards of other worlds.
I guess my advice is to either take wizards as they are, model them for use the way you want, or don't use them in your games and go for sorcerers, which fit more of the idea of a spellcaster whose power comes from within.
then how can it be explained that while the moons are gone, no wizard can cast spells, whilst the sorcerers can happily go on casting?
Or could renegades also continue casting wizard spells when the moons were gone?
If they are casting the same spells, they should be able to either cast both, or not. But it should apply to both of them at the same time. Even the difference of calling on a different source would count as 'casting a different spell' in my opinion.
Originally posted by TranquilDarkness
If they are casting the same spells, they should be able to either cast both, or not. But it should apply to both of them at the same time. Even the difference of calling on a different source would count as 'casting a different spell' in my opinion.
You've really hit on the major game mechanics impact on this whole model, TD. To make it work with 3rd edition and to provide the maximum amount of consistency with the rules everyone is expected to use, spells all work the same way. They're just effects broken out into spell levels, with durations, components, and so forth.
A host of optional rules present themselves right up front - from giving sorcerers and wizards a penalty in trying to recognize (with Spellcraft) and counter each other's spells, to making it impossible for sorcerers and wizards to use each other's magic items without a special feat.
At least from where I stand, I like to avoid as much of this as I can in my games. I'm happiest when I can have things work as well together as possible, with sorcerers and wizards both casting fireball and the only difference being roleplaying and story background. The latter is much easier for me to toss into the mix than the rules.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I guess my advice is to either take wizards as they are, model them for use the way you want, or don't use them in your games and go for sorcerers, which fit more of the idea of a spellcaster whose power comes from within.
I'm not saying the wizard's power comes from within, just not from the gods. The talent for the casting of the spell's is the wizard's own however.
Originally posted by ferratus
I'm not saying the wizard's power comes from within, just not from the gods. The talent for the casting of the spell's is the wizard's own however.
So basically, your issue is that arcane magic comes from the gods.
Sorry to say, but they are the source of High Sorcery. Whether they grant it themselves, or purify Wild Sorcery into a non-chaotic form, or a bit of both, or whatever - the source of High Sorcery comes from the gods of magic.
This does not make wizards into "arcane clerics".
Originally posted by TranquilDarkness
then how can it be explained that while the moons are gone, no wizard can cast spells, whilst the sorcerers can happily go on casting?
Same way I've explained it all along - that High Sorcery comes from the moon gods.
Or could renegades also continue casting wizard spells when the moons were gone?
Nope, the power of High Sorcery was gone, so they couldn't cast spells either.
If they are casting the same spells, they should be able to either cast both, or not. But it should apply to both of them at the same time. Even the difference of calling on a different source would count as 'casting a different spell' in my opinion.
See Cam's answer on this. I think he sums it up pretty well.
Now, we can certainly agree that the lunar dieties have intervened and fundamentally created a source of magic that the wizards can draw upon, that's what the moons are for. However, the creation of the moons should be the beginning and the end of the lunar dieties intervention with the raw powers of magic. The purified and ordered magic is there now, the cycles of the moons take care of it automatically. When a wizard is no longer receiving the bonuses of the moons, it should be because his soul is unwilling to serve magic, not because he is unwilling to serve the gods of magic.
Originally posted by ferratus
It does if there is any hint that the moon gods can pull that bowl of magic away from an individual wizard and make them completely unable to cast magic at all. When you are dealing with the baggage of a diety vs. mortal spellcasting relationship, it is going to reflect a clerical model.
They can't pull all magic away from an individual wizard, just the additional benefits that wizard gains by being a Wizard of High Sorcery and aligning himself with white, red or black magic. If the gods of magic are absent entirely, then no wizards can use magic at all. They have to pull it from magic items and depend on that residual power - once that's over, that's it.
Now, we can certainly agree that the lunar dieties have intervened and fundamentally created a source of magic that the wizards can draw upon, that's what the moons are for. However, the creation of the moons should be the beginning and the end of the lunar dieties intervention with the raw powers of magic. The purified and ordered magic is there now, the cycles of the moons take care of it automatically. When a wizard is no longer receiving the bonuses of the moons, it should be because his soul is unwilling to serve magic, not because he is unwilling to serve the gods of magic.
They are one and the same. Serving the magic, in respect of commiting oneself to the deeper mysteries and tenets of one of the three Orders, is synonymous with serving the gods of magic. If you don't, keep in mind, you can still cast wizard spells. You just don't get the additional benefits.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
They are one and the same. Serving the magic, in respect of commiting oneself to the deeper mysteries and tenets of one of the three Orders, is synonymous with serving the gods of magic. If you don't, keep in mind, you can still cast wizard spells. You just don't get the additional benefits.
Excellent! We had a big debate months ago about whether or not wizards could have their magic pulled away from them. I argued it was a bad, bad idea because it made renegade hunting extremely uncecessary and boring.
Since renegades are back to being powerful menaces again, you can say that the gods of magic are actively granting magic if you want to. The fact of the matter is that the magic and the orders are looking after themselves, so the lunar gods are passive and remote figures in actual gameplay.
A compromise has been reached. Yay!
Originally posted by ferratus
A compromise has been reached. Yay!
But this is what we've been saying since the start of this most recent discussion, man. Wizards (little W) can cast spells without committing themselves to the gods of magic, but gain no moon benefits, and if they're too powerful they're renegades and the orders have to go and deal with it.
Hence the buffet example, the other examples, the clarifications, etc etc etc. I'm glad I was able to express it in a way that made sense, at least.
Cheers,
Cam
I'm glad it is crystal clear now.
Originally posted by ferratus
It was the part of the analogy that they could be kicked out of the resturant that threw me.
Ah. Well, that was more to explain what happened when the restaurant was closed for business. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
Of course, then moon gods settle with Takhisis in a particularly harsh court case in which she is executed and return to their resturant. Inside they find a whole bunch of sorcerer punks who are trashing their kitchen making food. Not putting the mustard away, leaving the bread out to dry, etc.
All in all a big headache.Originally posted by ferratus
Hmm... I'd tinker with the analogy this way. Rather than Chaos being the mad landlord that gave them the keys, it should be that Chaos was the landlord that closed the place down in the first place.
Yes, that's more of what I was aiming for.
Cheers,
Cam