Originally posted by Dannelle
You fond of saying that Bram DiThon was neither a druid nor a cleric. If he is neither of those things, then how was he drawing power from Chislev? We have a clear example from a book that seems to give a character two different sorts of magic. One might say that it was all "fairy-magic (some unknowable mystery)," but the link to Chislev is stated. It is even more interesting that it occured before the War of the Lance.
Originally posted by Brimstone
2) It is before the War of the Lance...if you allow other gods to have granted devine magic to mortals before Mishakal bestowed her gift on Goldmoon...that revelation looses all meaning, and the first book of Chronicles becomes stupid and pointless. Goldmoon was the first, she was meant to be the first, she and Riverwind were chosen to be the first.
A very important point, and reason why mysticism is not available at all times during Krynn's history.
3) The understanding of how magic worked and interacted with each other was not completely understood back then...it hadn't been completely fleshed out...
This is a point I wish to address.
Dragonlance is a world in evolution. From the original modules and stories, to the era of the second generation and the Chaos War, to the reign of the dragon overlords, the War of Souls, and now the modern era.
Our whole perception of how we view DL has changed so much over the years. Perhaps the biggest impact on this was the loss of godly magic after the Chaos War, and the discovery of ambient magic in the years dollowing.
Throughout all this time, we occasionally have to look upon magic in new ways, yet the foundation and core is still there. Yes, my view of magic is different than it was 10 years ago and much has changed, yet it is still Dragonlance.
I wanted to make one other point as well, and this is one I cannot stress enough.
Dragonlance is a world of legends. It is a mythic, fairy-tale world filled with stories of great deeds and great tragedy.
I think a lot of Dragonlance fans look at every novel as canon. My own take is that each novel is a legend, or a tale within the world.
Think of King Arthur. How many different takes have we heard on his tale? Dozens? Each one is slightly different, yet each one brings us enjoyment.
Point is, we're going to hear tales at times that are somewhat contradictory. If Bram is a druid in the truest sense of the word, then that contradicts the concept of no divine magic between the Cataclysm and the War of the Lance.
Sometimes, we have to take these tales with a grain of salt. Perhaps in the telling and retelling of the tale, the truth gets distorted.
Sometimes, we have to look at things in a new light. Brim mentions how Bram is part fey. Perhaps, then, he is able to tap into the power of Wild Sorcery without Chaos boosting the magic, as he is tied to the magic.
Basically, we all have to establish what is core for us in regards to DL. This is one of the many reasons I like gaming products, as they help to establish rules not only for the game, but also for the world.
When Bram was introduced to those powers, he learned all that was taught to him by his new family, including the Gods.
As for the wizards, the priests had been missing for a long time, it is obvious that they wanted to study the new powers that appeared to them with Bram.
As for Goldmoon being the person to introduce the Gods to the world, I'd consider that she was one of them. There were priests of Takhisis already for example. Why not in different places of Ansalon, different people learned about the Gods and introduced the faith in Gods to the world? Goldmoon was just the one known everywhere but in small towns it could be someone else.
During the Chaos War, there were several people that helped defeat Chaos. It wasnt just the battle in the rift
It wasnt just Goldmoon who found the power of the heart. Some other people throughout the world did it.
That's how I see it
Originally posted by lost_boy_84
It wasnt just Goldmoon who found the power of the heart. Some other people throughout the world did it.
Well, this wasn't really the point of posting this idea on Bram, but...
Okay, well, I disagree with that...in that the one item that was necessary to teach mortals how to become clerics again was the Disks of Mishakal. What was the point of the Heroes having to go to Xak Tsaroth to get them, if they aren't even needed to become a cleric. And why was Takhisis having them personally guarded by one of her dragons if they aren't that important.
No...I definately disagree with you on this one.
As for Bram, he was taught by someone who had never actually forgotten it, so he didnt need to read the stone and he never taught anyone, at least not in the novels Lost Boy makes a good point though; they were priest of Takhisis around at the time. Maybe others in different parts of Krynn practice a limited form of clerical magic, such as Khur shamans doing divination and minor healings. After all, the Khur where so apart from the world and so devoted to their “pantheon” they barely noticed the Cataclysm. They never lost faith. It just so happens that Goldmoon was destined to bring back the knowledge of the gods. Dragonlance is also about characters fulfilling their destinies.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Lost Boy makes a good point though; they were priest of Takhisis around at the time.
Of course. Takhisis wasn't exactly playing by the rules, remember. She was working behind the scenes to make her big return for a number of years prior to the Chronicles, and so evil clerics had already made a comeback. She was counting on no resistance, which is one of the reasons she was adamant that Verminaard prevent the Blue Crystal Staff from getting into the hands of those who might use it against her.
The other gods (even the other evil gods) more or less stayed without servants until the fit hit the shan, so to speak. Even then, the gods of light relied on mortals coming back of their own volition for the most part.
Cheers,
Cam
Secondly, what was the final fate of the true clerics? I know they went to the Lost Citidael, but they were not there in the Defenders of Magic Trilogy.
Originally posted by Dannelle
It is quite possible that Bram's power was primal sorcery, but if I remember correctly he had to focus it through a staff. This to me does not evoke images of wild, chaotic power, but something much closer to a medallion of faith.
Actually each sorcerer is different. The only thing similar in their spell casting was that they all needed some form of concentration to create a spell. Because of the chaotic nature of the magic, it took extreme amounts of concentration on the part of the sorcerer and mystic...which is why there would be a mishap so often when casting (I don't know the actual statistic...but if one was trying to cast an extremely powerful spell...there was about a 1 in 10 chance it would backfire and cause a mishap...because for powerful spells one would most likely have to draw a card from the Fate Deck...which was about 1/10th Dragon cards, which would cause a mishap).
Some sorcerers would speak the arcane words of old (Palin did this). Although the words no longer held any power that they used to, it helped the sorcerers concentrate. Maldred the Ogre-Magi would hum tunes when working his magic. Feril would create little idols shaped differently (depending on what kind of spell she was casting) that she could concentrate on. And other would use items of old that no longer held any power (or perhaps did...which helped them even more) like old staves or rings or amulets from previous Ages. So him focusing his magic "through" his staff fits very well with him being a sorcerer.
That and the fact that he's Fey...which are all sorcerers anyway.
Originally posted by Dannelle
Furthermore, I seem to remember a story in an anthology about a female druid and a bronze dragon before the War of the Lance.
You can't take everything written in DL at face value (especially in teh anthologies). There have been alot of people write stories about Dragonlance who had absolutely no (or at the very least, very little) understanding of the world
Originally posted by Dannelle
Maybe druidic power was something much different under previous incarnations of the game?
Well...I don't think druids officially existed in the DL D&D game until SAGA and 3e. And in SAGA they used Mysticism. But if one was a cleric of Habbakuk, Chislev, or Zeboim...you could essentially be a druid.
Originally posted by Dannelle
Secondly, what was the final fate of the true clerics? I know they went to the Lost Citidael, but they were not there in the Defenders of Magic Trilogy.
Well, eventually they would have died of old age.
That being said, though, I didn't remember them ever actually going to the Lost Citadel. Bastion was in a pocket plane that connected the Prime Material Plane to whatever Plane the Lost Citadel was located on...but I didn't remember them ever actually going to it. So how do we know if they were there or not?
The issue that I think is important is that this was not how he was presented. I don't know very many sorcerers who can cast entangle. Neither can Bram be a mystic because he worships Chislev as the source of his magic. At the moment, I'm deeply unsatisfied with the answers we have come up with. I would be happier if we admitted that either Bram is a fluke (which might be represented by some list of spell like abilities or template) or that one can mix divine and arcane magic whilly-nilly.
Originally posted by Dannelle
I accept that under the present 3.5 rules Bram could be a Fey sorcerer. In fact, I think that your view is probably the easiest solution: Bram as some sort of Sorcerer/Wizard combo. (Let's disregard that impossiblity of that.)
Well, if that's what you're looking for, I'm not going to be able to help you. It is clearly a case of Mary Kirchoff taking too much liberty with her character/story and creating a contradiction. Whether on purpose, or because at the time she did not know the setting very well, I don't know.
So you either have to ignore the contradiction, or consider the whole thing non-canon, essentially. Or change the setting to match the story, which I, personally, think is the wrong thing to do. Those really (as far as I can go) is all there is to do for it if doesn't want to try and manipulate the story to match it up with what I think is the most integrated Dragonlance setting we've ever had.
But the issue of canonitity is very much a personal preference...and it's quite difficult to come to a concensus on anything.
Originally posted by Dannelle
Secondly, what was the final fate of the true clerics? I know they went to the Lost Citidael, but they were not there in the Defenders of Magic Trilogy.
They re-entered Krynn during the War of the Lance period according to the Legends, many of them seen helping out in the rebuilding of Silvanesti.
And how do you know they were not there in DoM? Maybe their presence there was part of the reason that the gods of magic decreed no-one should enter it.
No, there were always Half Orcs in dragonlance. We just didnt know it till she wrote Kendermore :D
Now, I don't think we want the wizards of High Sorcery hunting down dryads or hruldrefolk as renegades. So we have to determine why these creatures can cast magic, while humans, elves and the other mortal races are forbidden. Is it due to the fact that the fey are not mortal?
Originally posted by ferratus
Now, I don't think we want the wizards of High Sorcery hunting down dryads or hruldrefolk as renegades. So we have to determine why these creatures can cast magic, while humans, elves and the other mortal races are forbidden. Is it due to the fact that the fey are not mortal?
Exactly. Ambient magic had been available throughout Krynn's history as the primal magic of the world, but not to mortals. Specifically, elves and men, and their offshoots - and ogres too, although I'm still unsure about the ogre magi. At any rate, fey and dragons and other beings with an innate magical quality were using their own slant on the same magic, but didn't need Chaos' influence to do so.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Exactly. Ambient magic had been available throughout Krynn's history as the primal magic of the world, but not to mortals. Specifically, elves and men, and their offshoots - and ogres too, although I'm still unsure about the ogre magi. At any rate, fey and dragons and other beings with an innate magical quality were using their own slant on the same magic, but didn't need Chaos' influence to do so.
Okay, then it seems to me that two things must flow from this.
All magic using creature types with spells or spell-like abilities must be immortal until killed. Not really a problem, because that essentially means extraplanar creatures such as elementals, celestials and fiends, and fey. We considered them all immortal anyway.
That means that all spellcasting humanoids and monstrous humaniods must have access to the Towers of High Sorcery and the Test. Granted, most monstrous humanoids will never be bright enough to take it, but the possibility must exist nonetheless. The tower cannot be restricted to men and elves.
Is that correct?
Originally posted by ferratus
That means that all spellcasting humanoids and monstrous humaniods must have access to the Towers of High Sorcery and the Test. Granted, most monstrous humanoids will never be bright enough to take it, but the possibility must exist nonetheless. The tower cannot be restricted to men and elves.
Is that correct?
I have a feeling the Conclave doesn't much care for the people who have had Chaos' touch upon them (the Graygem races) because they are deemed damaged goods, to a certain extent. Men and elves are more or less as they were made, whereas kender aren't. One imagines high ogres would have been extremely dangerous Black Robes had they remained as they were - now, they're brutes and not on speaking terms with anybody at the Conclave, regardless of their actual intelligence.
And yeah, I'd agree with the immortality of fey, outsiders, etc. Death only by violent means - or by giving up, which would be a sort of voluntary relinquishment of their immortal natures.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by wolffenjugend
Actually, I believe the 3.5 Dragonlance Campaign Setting mentions that there were in fact others who "found" the gods prior to Goldmoon. I could be wrong, but I'm almost certain it mentions it in passing somewhere (either the religion chapter or in the War of the Lance chapter).
Right. It says other clerics in other areas may have been similarly blessed at around the same time. This would probably be the case for the gods of the Neutral pantheon. However, Goldmoon was undoubtedly the first and most influential of these new clerics, chosen to lead the Heroes to uncover the Disks of Mishakal and unearth the treachery of Takhisis.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I have a feeling the Conclave doesn't much care for the people who have had Chaos' touch upon them (the Graygem races) because they are deemed damaged goods, to a certain extent. Men and elves are more or less as they were made, whereas kender aren't.
Oh, don't try to sneak in a restriction against kender in the WoS back into peoples' minds, or I'll sick the fanbase of the kencyclopedia website on you. You'll find plenty of pictures of kender mages there, and enthusiasm for new dragonlance characters should be encouraged. I myself want to play a kender wizard character someday, and the only time I'll be able be a player in Dragonlance is in the Living Dragonlance (Legends of Dragonlance? Tales of Krynn?) shared continuity that Sovereign Press wants to get started, or in online games.
Besides, that ship has sailed. Bless those minotaurs, they possessed the right amount of seriousness and intelligence to make minotaur wizards feasible to everyone and get themselves written into the DLCS. They opened the door to let all of the rest of the greygem races in.
One imagines high ogres would have been extremely dangerous Black Robes had they remained as they were - now, they're brutes and not on speaking terms with anybody at the Conclave, regardless of their actual intelligence.
I disagree. I think the trend, with the rise of the titans, is for Ogres to reclaim their place as the dominant evil species. Sure, they are brutes, but we should all have experienced people who combine savagery, brutal violence and a belly full of vengeful hate with a keen and cunning intellect. That's how I see Ogres. They would make excellent black robed wizards, particularly Ogre Magi. After all, if ogres are one of the three primary races, then obviously by our own logic they are not innate wild magic casters. Thus, what were they before the 5th Age if not wizards?
Before you answer that question, remember 5th Age fans feel about the discovery of Sorcery by Palin the way you feel about Goldmoon's discovery of healing magic in Chronicles.
And yeah, I'd agree with the immortality of fey, outsiders, etc. Death only by violent means - or by giving up, which would be a sort of voluntary relinquishment of their immortal natures.
Yeah, I could go for that too.