~B4Real
Originally posted by B4Real
is it worth the money?
As far as I can tell, no.
Originally posted by Keg of Ale
As far as I can tell, no.
LoL!
I say its worth the buy I use it in my game quite a bit
Originally posted by Charney
Avoid that book at all cost. Only one feat was salvagable from it in my opinion. I don't even know what purpose this book is supposed to serve except introduce Munchkinism to RL!
LoL....What is munchkin-ism?
~B4Real
Originally posted by Keen_Man
Champions of darkness alowes for pc's that are walking the line to push more darkness into the game on the part of the players. its got some realy interesting things in it including many classes, feats and information on darker societies.
I say its worth the buy I use it in my game quite a bit
I have one player that loves to walk the line he has a chaotic evil pc that he made up and is playing along with the other pc's until he does not need them anymore.
~B4Real
Probably the worst Ravenloft product ever...
Get any other RL book instead (even Heroes of Light!), invest in RL PDF download of 2nd edition products, hug a tree, vote at school boards elections, buy a cake for your grandmother, or call a friend you haven't spoken in years.
Your time and money will be better spent.
Joël
Originally posted by Gotten
I second that "Hell, No !"
Get any other RL book instead (even Heroes of Light!), invest in RL PDF download of 2nd edition products, hug a tree, vote at school boards elections, buy a cake for your grandmother, or call a friend you haven't spoken in years.
Your time and money will be better spent.
Joël
LoL!
I realize this isn't a detailed criticism of the book, so if you want a bit more than simple vitriol, say as such. I'd just rather not bother with the book at all, even to reference for a review, if I can so help it. Hopefully someone else will step up to the bat for giving the book the downing it truly deserves.
Get the Gazetteers, Van Richten's Arsenal, the DM's Guide. Or, heck, some quality product outside of Ravenloft. With the amount of d20 companies out there, you could find better value for your buck than Champions of Darkness, even if it's not with a Ravenloft product.
Originally posted by TricksterGod
I realize this isn't a detailed criticism of the book, so if you want a bit more than simple vitriol, say as such. I'd just rather not bother with the book at all, even to reference for a review, if I can so help it. Hopefully someone else will step up to the bat for giving the book the downing it truly deserves.
*Evil grin* I'm currently writing reviews for each RL products in 3e ...
In short: overpowered and out of place villains (Sheriff Potato), useless PrC, and weird feats.
Joël
The single worst RL product to date.
Its of more use to a DM than a player. Some of the prestige classes and feats are mildly interesting, but certainly not essential. Most of the "advice" for running a gritty campaign with anti-heroes is shallow or inferior to what you might find in BoVD. The idea and implementation of the Ebon Gargoyles is regularly mocked on these boards - not to mention so grossly out of character for Barovia that the writters either (a) are badly ignorant and need to restudy what they were writting about or (b) (what I believe) they don't share the same vision of Ravenloft as the standard fans.
For example: Somewhere in Barovia in a village surrounded by a permanent giant ring of fire, wizards are supposedly being trained as spys to serve Strahd in his shadow war with Azalin. The graduation test is for them to Teleport out (ie reach 9th level). =( Of course none of this was shared with the team developing Gaz#1...or the team working on Gaz #1 couldn't bring themselves to abandon the feel of Barovia that much.
Not even a reappearance of the Carnival could save this book.
Look elsewhere to spend your money.
-Eric Gorman
Originally posted by HvF
CoD...?
For example: Somewhere in Barovia in a village surrounded by a permanent giant ring of fire, wizards are supposedly being trained as spys to serve Strahd in his shadow war with Azalin. The graduation test is for them to Teleport out (ie reach 9th level). =( Of course none of this was shared with the team developing Gaz#1...or the team working on Gaz #1 couldn't bring themselves to abandon the feel of Barovia that much.
-Eric Gorman
I didn't know that much, but surely, a permanent giant ring of fire.... if you hadn't told me where this was, I'd picture Planescape, or perhaps the Realms. But Barovia ? It really is hard, hard, hard to believe they've written it. :-(
So sorry to hear that.
By the way, what's that about the Ebon Gargoyles ?
W.C.
They're supposed to be Strahd's answer to the Kargat! A large group of (apparently fairly high level) flunkies under the control of the psycopathic scythe weilding horseman known as Sherif von Zarovich with the (IMO vile) Nighlord prestige class.
Never mind that Strahd hordes magic and does not share it.
Never mind that no history or rational was really given regarding their origens or history.
Never mind that Strahd has a history of squashing anyone who upsets his base of power and/or takes advantage of acting in his name.
Never mind that the rather pathetic villages of Barovia are already cowed and under Strahd's control and that the Kargat isn't really a threat in Barovia (what is there to threaten?) itself.
Sorry for the rant. There was a seperate thread on salvaging the EGs. You'll find more information there.
-Eric Gorman
Originally posted by HvF
What are the Ebon Gargies?
Never mind that the rather pathetic villages of Barovia are already cowed and under Strahd's control and that the Kargat isn't really a threat in Barovia (what is there to threaten?) itself.
Sorry for the rant. There was a seperate thread on salvaging the EGs. You'll find more information there.
Eh, to say there's no threat in Barovia is to say Strahd's beneath consideration, Inajira's beneath consideration, the nearest thing the Vistani have to a headquarters is beneath consideration, the very heart of the Demiplane of Dread that Azalin is so intent upon escaping is beneath consideration, and so on, and so on. There's plenty of reason for the Kargat to be there. Not to mention, the Gundarak region of Barovia is hardly all that cowed, and there's also the Cult of the Morninglord which has, on at least one occasion, nearly destroyed Strahd.
The main problem with the Ebon Gargoyles is that they're about as subtle as a brick to the face. They're intended to take care of Kargat spies in Barovia, yet are unsuited towards that purpose. They're a cudgel, a nail in a board, a falling piano, and a number of other things that aren't exactly going to be able to pry out a splinter that's worked its way underneath your fingernail. That splinter obviously being an analogy to the Kargat. They don't strike me as even particularly effective against the Church of the Morninglord and the Gundarakites, which both operate on a fairly guerrilla-level.
They also don't much jive with the mood of Barovia. The image of a small, quaint little Russian village, with the taciturn burgomeister and a superstitious population of country bumpkins, where there's a quiet paranoia about all things strange, different, and night dwelling is shattered by the shout of some doofus Snidely Whiplash in demonic plate-mail. The Ebon Gargoyles are, to a degree, like Drakov's Talons, and ruin some of the mood of Barovia by making it look more like Falkovnia.
And that group is just one reason why one should not pick up Champions of Darkness. Because the supposed champions of darkness presented within are essentially a bunch of trumped up, truncheon bearing slack-jawed yokels with all the style of a polyester wearing lounge lizard.
Oh, and the writers and editors couldn't even get the statistics right, or notice that they weren't right.
Take for example the 16th level vampiric elf fighter who should have, at minimum, 14 feats, up to potentially 19, yet is only listed with 6 (and not even all the bonus vampire feats at that).
Bad, bad, bad.
edit: Spelling
Is Champions of Darkness the worst Ravenloft product to date?
It all depends on what you want to do with Ravenloft.
If you're looking to introduce anti-heroism to your players, to allow them to walk the fine, gray line between Good and Evil...then this book will be worth the money you'll have to shell out. Well, no 3E product is actually worth the dollar you pay, but...you get the point.
There are a couple of cool feats there; some half-interesting prestige classes; semi-solid adventuring advice (plots and such); organizations, etc....again, only if you are considering to go against the stream; challenge what Ravenloft was (2E), and what people are pushing it to be (the majority here).
To be honest with you, there is more stuff in Champions of Darkness that I wanted to either ignore or change (in some cases, drastically) compared to the other books released under the 3E tag, but...it's just a book of left-wing ideas in relation to the "known" setting, if you ask me.
I suggest make the call for yourself. If you listen too closely to what people have to say, then you may miss out on something that's a little more linear to your gig...if you get my say. ie: We don't have a clue as to what you want to do with Ravenloft, so why ask us, really? Maybe if you stated your intentions...??
Interesting note, or, so I like to think: this is the only product that the crew at the website Secrets of the Kargatane didn't have anything to do with (correct me if I'm wrong)...so the negative say here might be a little...biased. Intentional or unintentional; really makes no difference.
Just a heads up.
Yes there are things of interest in Barovia that the Kargat would be interested in. But I can't see the kind of knife in the back quasi-spy type campaign you might get in a more metropolitan realm. Hence I can't see Strahd with "lame Kargat clones" in a "shadow war" through the Barovian countryside. Just as I can't think of a James Bond Novel that took place in a couple of squalid villages. The idea as presented doesn't fly.
And yes the book made some other interesting oversights. Correctable...? Ultimately yes. A good value...? IMO "Hell no."
-Eric Gorman
Originally posted by TricksterGod
Eh, to say there's no threat in Barovia is to say Strahd's beneath consideration, Inajira's beneath consideration, the nearest thing the Vistani have to a headquarters is beneath consideration, the very heart of the Demiplane of Dread that Azalin is so intent upon escaping is beneath consideration, and so on, and so on. There's plenty of reason for the Kargat to be there. Not to mention, the Gundarak region of Barovia is hardly all that cowed, and there's also the Cult of the Morninglord which has, on at least one occasion, nearly destroyed Strahd.
The main problem with the Ebon Gargoyles is that they're about as subtle as a brick to the face. They're intended to take care of Kargat spies in Barovia, yet are unsuited towards that purpose. They're a cudgel, a nail in a board, a falling piano, and a number of other things that aren't exactly going to be able to pry out a splinter that's worked its way underneath your fingernail. That splinter obviously being an analogy to the Kargat. They don't striek me as even particularly effective against the Church of the Morninglord and the Gundarakites, which both operate on a fairly guerrilla-level.
They also don't much jive with the mood of Barovia. The image of a small, quaint little Russian village, with the taciturn burgomeister and a superstitious population of country bumpkins, where there's a quiet paranoia about all things strange, different, and night dwelling is shattered by the shout of some doofus Snidely Whiplash in demonic plate-mail. The Ebon Gargoyles are, to a degree, like Drakov's Talons, and ruin some of the mood of Barovia by making it look more like Falkovnia.
And that group is just one reason why one should not pick up Champions of Darkness. Because the supposed champions of darkness presented within are essentially a bunch of trumped up, truncheon bearing slack-jawed yokels with all the style of a polyester wearing lounge lizard.
Oh, and the writers and editors couldn't even get the statistics right, or notice that they weren't right.
Take for example the 16th level vampiric elf fighter who should have, at minimum, 14 feats, up to potentially 19, yet is only listed with 6 (and not even all the bonus vampire feats at that).
Bad, bad, bad.
Originally posted by the Man in the murk
Is Champions of Darkness a good buy?
Is Champions of Darkness the worst Ravenloft product to date?
It all depends on what you want to do with Ravenloft.
If you're looking to introduce anti-heroism to your players, to allow them to walk the fine, gray line between Good and Evil...then this book will be worth the money you'll have to shell out. Well, no 3E product is actually worth the dollar you pay, but...you get the point.
There are a couple of cool feats there; some half-interesting prestige classes; semi-solid adventuring advice (plots and such); organizations, etc....again, only if you are considering to go against the stream; challenge what Ravenloft was (2E), and what people are pushing it to be (the majority here).
...it's just a book of left-wing ideas in relation to the "known" setting, if you ask me.
I suggest make the call for yourself. If you listen too closely to what people have to say, then you may miss out on something that's a little more linear to your gig...if you get my say. ie: We don't have a clue as to what you want to do with Ravenloft, so why ask us, really? Maybe if you stated your intentions...??
And, as a rebuttal for the sake of B4Real, I think it goes without saying the book is supposed to be about anti-heroes, the moral gray line, and playing up to the darker side of Ravenloft. And that, with this in mind...it's still not worth it, in my opinion. At times, it borders on comic-book villainy in the way it's been written. Whether it be a heroic, villainous, morally ambiguous or whatever campaign, or as a DM's tool, or whatever...I would not recommend this book. Perhaps if there is something specific that was being looked for, maybe it would be in there. I for one picked up Champions of Darkness, knowing it wasn't worth the paper it was printed on, as it had a bit of Carnival in it. Little did I know how little it was - I could type up more on Carnival straight from memory that would be useful than one could find in Champions of Darkness. I rather regret now not asking on a messageboard just how much Carnival was gone into.
So if anyone has specific questions on something they're looking for inside the book, ask them. The answer will likely be highly disappointing in nature.
Originally posted by the Man in the murk
Interesting note, or, so I like to think: this is the only product that the crew at the website Secrets of the Kargatane didn't have anything to do with (correct me if I'm wrong)...so the negative say here might be a little...biased. Intentional or unintentional; really makes no difference.
The Kargatane had nothing to do with the new material in the Ravenloft Player's Handbook. Nor, as far as I recall, had they anything to do with Heroes of Light. Notably, those two books, on top of Champions of Darkness, receive the most vitriol and ire, in the current Ravenloft line, as near as I can tell.
But that has nothing to do with who the authors are, as opposed to just how well they write in relation to one another. Despite opinions to the contrary, it's not bias that gives the Gazetteers and Van Richten's Arsenal such high praise, and books like Champions of Darkness the hatred of many a fan, but instead the relative quality of the books. Of course, not everyone's going to agree on what's a quality book, and what's not, but then again, I have a friend who went out to see the Martin Lawrence movie, Black Knight, twice in the theatre.
But to claim people are going to be biased just because they know the authors a bit better, or that they used to help run a website and gather together fan-based material into a book, well. At best (or worst, however you want to look at it), Kargatane loyalty is only going to give books their members worked on undue praise - not cause their fans to undeservedly criticize a book the Kargatane didn't work on, except in the most extreme of cases. If people were going to unjustly chastise the book for only its authors, most who have mentioned their problems with Champions of Darkness never would have bought it in the first place. Very few people purchase a book that they are automatically biased against.
what happens is that we all developed a culture based on a view of Ravenloft much influenced by the Kargatane authors via the Netbooks, their opinions and material on the site, and a strong interaction with them and many other fans. Now, the community was formed when RL was a closed line, where everything had been said and done, and what RL was was very well defined. So, we all, or at least the majority here, ended up with a fairly similar idea of RL.
Now that the line has new authors and new editors, we see that those people just did not have the same spirit we gained, they were not formed in the same mould, and that shows. Probably, they know less of RL than we do; perhaps, they played other games and were assigned to write for RL, without truly having experienced it. The point is, they do not share our views and they want to do something different, and we resent that, we feel that as strange and sub-quality because it goes against the principles this community here developed throughout the years.
Just in passing, it's immediately apparent that these new people do not have the feeling of 2E RL, perhaps because they just don't know the material, where we grew up with those in mind, right ?
Well, just my opinion.
W.C.
Originally posted by the Man in the murk
Interesting note, or, so I like to think: this is the only product that the crew at the website Secrets of the Kargatane didn't have anything to do with (correct me if I'm wrong)...so the negative say here might be a little...biased. Intentional or unintentional; really makes no difference.
Nonsense, IMHO.
The CoD "hate" threads started when I started a rant on Sheriff Potato and his goons, then others (Hackard was a close second) joined in on the Sherriff and other things, after the ice was broken.
And the K never said anything about CoD in the first weeks, then Azalin pointed out a few heresies, after the opinion of many was set.
And HoL wasn't hated as CoD even if no K worked on it.
I tend to agree with WC's opinion on the subject.
Jo
I dug out CoD a few days ago, thinking time would let me change my views and it is still as bad now as it was then.
I will say this go get HEREOS of LIGHT, that book has alot more to it then CHAMPIONS of DARKNESS.
Originally posted by TricksterGod
But to claim people are going to be biased just because they know the authors a bit better,
I said: "Interesting note, or, so I like to think: this is the only product that the crew at the website Secrets of the Kargatane didn't have anything to do with (correct me if I'm wrong)...so the negative say here might be a little...biased. Intentional or unintentional; really makes no difference."
The word "might" was underlined...to say that there may be some bias from those who idolize (bad term, maybe "support" is a better one
) what the ex-Kargatane writers are bringing to the setting...just sometimes, not neccessarily apparent, or intentional. All the same, this is just something that I thought I saw...I've been known to be wrong.
Disregard if you see fit.
CoD was awful, not written by the K
Hol wasn't all that great and also not written by the K
The modifications in RLPHB were awful and not made by the K
So in the future, we'll probably be very careful about any books not made by the K.
Originally posted by Charney
So in the future, we'll probably be very careful about any books not made by the K.
That's pretty weak, man...
The former Kargatane is doing a damn good job with Ravenloft 3E, that's not in question, but when it comes to monopolizing the setting? No friggin' way.
Let's try to keep an open mind, and allow others to at least try and influence our setting. Just because you made the mistake of buying a product that you couldn't work with, it don't mean the product "sucks". Well, neccessarily.
The creators of Forgotten Realms made this mistake, but they corrected themselves. I like to think anyway. To a certain degree.
(authors of novels have the power, and the range of authors is just short of great.)
Hell, a part of me wouldn't mind seeing Ravenloft's sponsors pull the plug on the setting, knowing damn well that there are people like the SotK crew to keep the setting going, forever, through netbooks, campaign journals and such. And with a proper webring, Ravenloft could be the instigators for the first online-supported campaign setting (ie: free, or, partially; minus the initial "start-up cost")...with each individual site being a take on what was previously published. People; gamers could then cut and paste, that is: choose which sites are more compatible with their respective gigs...thus making everything "canon" and everything equally "non-canon".
Yeah, they can do this with the published books, but, I'd like to see more gamer's take on the setting at the same time. Giving the people the power...to put it cheesily. For like Fear, Horror, and Madness, Ravenloft needs to be personalized for it to be an effective setting. And I dunno about you people, but rewriting practically all of the ideas (minus most info found in the Gaz's) found in each RL product is quite the bloody chore!
Give us the backdrop, some possible scenarios/adventure (what's the word again?) bits, and we'll do the rest.
But then again, the suits are into the setting to make some dough, so...all that I've just said is straight-up bunk.
Forgive the rant, but it is just that.
But, fear not, I am done.
10-7.
I don't mind taking the setting forward but there's reasons why I play RL and not FR. Replacing orcs by vampires isn't one of them.
Imagine if someone's take on Darksun was that iron was plentyfull and that casting magic made you a Dragon even if you were a preserver?
Which, I very much agree with.
I have Heroes of Light. It's not a fantastic book, but I rather liked the Morality scale, as it gave a better sense of where heroes stood when they're not failing powers checks constantly. I rather liked most of the Prestige Classes too, though they needed some work in game-terms. I especially liked the NPCs, and seeing the The Wanderers in game stats was a nice touch.
I have VRGttWD. It is a fantastic book, and one I highly recommend. I think it's easy (or at least, easier) to write a book about Liches and Vampires, as they're often found as Big Bad Guys in campaigns. They have class, they have savoir faire, and they're cool. Writing about their mooks, the skeletons and zombies, is a lot harder in that sense....they tend to lose that certain 'je ne sais quoi' that other undead have. I felt this book gave it back to them very nicely and did so in very classy manners.
But, these books may have failed completely and utterly had their authors not kept in close touch with the fan base. In a medium, like role-playing, where you need to know what your potential buyers want, not paying attention to them can be a fatal blow.
At this point I make note of the lack of prescence of the new authors on their own message board. Being there seems hollow, because just about everything is falling on deaf ears.
I know, on Monte Cook's forum, he reads new posts just about every day.
I know, at SotK, I didn't go a day without seeing one of the Karg members on.
From what I see at the S&S forums, such isn't the case.
I really hope that, sometime soon, they start paying attention to what we're saying....it could mean the life or death of the Ravenloft line.
Originally posted by Platinumwarlock
So, in that sense the problem is not so much "Everything not written by the Karg is bad" as much as it is "Everything written without regard to the readers is bad".
Yes, I think that's it exactly. I wish some of the new writers would show up here-- even if I never do get to liking the Ebon Gargoyle much I'd like to know who wrote it and why (and hope s/he doesn't get completely pimp-slapped by everyone as soon as s/he shows up!).
Originally posted by Brandi
Yes, I think that's it exactly. I wish some of the new writers would show up here-- even if I never do get to liking the Ebon Gargoyle much I'd like to know who wrote it and why (and hope s/he doesn't get completely pimp-slapped by everyone as soon as s/he shows up!).
We did see him back at the Goat last year when CoD was released. I just remember he said he essentially made his own campaign canon.
Is ChoD considered canon? I didn't think it was.
Originally posted by Charney
We did see him back at the Goat last year when CoD was released. I just remember he said he essentially made his own campaign canon.
No kidding? I think I did miss that, and it sounds like he plays a rather flashier version of Ravenloft than I'd care to...
[Aside: I agree with Deadbreaker's assessment of the book. It's not complete pants, but you can safely go a long time without buying it if you're prioritizing.]
it seems people didn't like Champions of Darkness because it wasn't how they envisioned Ravenloft.
these are people who have been dealing with a game for longer than i've been alive.
change makes them nervous. CoD was definately a change from how Ravenloft was explained to me back in the day.
if you're not the DM, don't buy the book, there's little for a player to use. if you are, i'd suggest getting it and just overlooking any parts you don't particularly care to deal with (such as the Sherriff).
and anyone who hurls insults & "because i say so" opinion without any actual content within their spew can be disregarded in general. they haven't put forth a good argument as to why the book isn't bad.
your best bet is to find it at some big store like Barnes & Noble & just read through it & decide for yourself if it's worth buying. most of these people are to caught up in coming up with semi-witty cutdowns to write a proper review.
(i'll tell you this, i'd buy a second copy of CoD before i went off and bought a RLPHB, which is another thread.)
I'm no fan of the book, myself. I strongly disliked the Barovia-Darkon cold war idea, and I disliked the use of Barovia as "Falkovnia Lite" even more. Also distressing was the fact that Gaz1 and ChoD, which appeared within two or three months of each other, were written without any apparent collaboration between the authors. (The right hand knoweth not what the left doeth, which is bound to create some nasty continuity issues.)
In terms of the prestige classes, I liked the Highway Rider and Dreamcaster. The Nightlord was a good idea with pretty lousy execution; the Worldbreaker was bizarre and probably unusuable; the Propagandist type classes were interesting but, I think, very, very difficult to use effectively. Um...I'd have to dig out the book to give an opinion on the rest.
Obviously, none of the NPCs were memorable, because I don't remember them. (Sherriff, you say? Let's get this straight--there is no Sherriff, and there never was.)
So, I wouldn't put out the cash for it. But, except for the Gazetteers and Van Richten's Arsenal, I'm not sure I would pay for any Ravenloft 3e products.
One NPC who surprised everyone by his reappearance was Jander Sunstar-- but even that turned into an argument over whether he was really CE or more neutrally aligned (certainly in the stories he's been featured in he seems to have kept his baser impulses in check).
Several of the feats were interesting but general enough that they didn't really evoke that 'anti-hero' feeling they were supposedly going for (Dispassionate Dread Companion, Equestrian, Musical Aptitude).
Oh, and the Freemen of Falkovnia weren't bad.
Originally posted by Aion Khonsu
change makes them nervous. CoD was definately a change from how Ravenloft was explained to me back in the day.
There's a not-so-fine line between "change" and "blatant contradiction," and CoD crosses it multiple times. While some of the people here may have been throwing around opinions, others have cited some decent facts as to why it's not a good buy. Disregarding these statements is as bad as saying "because I said so," IMHO. Further, you have neither refuted their comments nor suggested why it would be worth buying.
One NPC who surprised everyone by his reappearance was Jander Sunstar-- but even that turned into an argument over whether he was really CE or more neutrally aligned
Just for the record, it was officially declared that he should be considered Chaotic Neutral.
Originally posted by Walden
Just for the record, it was officially declared that he should be considered Chaotic Neutral.
While of the opinion he should be Chaotic Neutral, I don't believe he was ever declared to be officially so. I believe it was Azalin and the general Kargatane crew who said he should be Chaotic Neutral, or implied as such, but those folk don't have the "offficial" word on things. Perhaps the authoritative one, but there's a difference in that.
Unless you're getting this from somewhere else? If so, I am curious as to where.
Originally posted by TricksterGod
While of the opinion he should be Chaotic Neutral, I don't believe he was ever declared to be officially so. I believe it was Azalin and the general Kargatane crew who said he should be Chaotic Neutral, or implied as such, but those folk don't have the "offficial" word on things. Perhaps the authoritative one, but there's a difference in that.
Unless you're getting this from somewhere else? If so, I am curious as to where.
It was Azalin who declare him CN. And the Ask Azalin board was for official rulings.
If you want more official than this, ask Steve Miller who made Jander's write-up in CHildren of the night. Otherwise, it's Christie Golden
Then again, I haven't got 3.5 MM yet, so it might have changed...
Originally posted by Lance Dracon
As far as I remember from the Monster Manual, all vampires become CE when they gain the template.
Then again, I haven't got 3.5 MM yet, so it might have changed...
Constant repeating... so that's what it feels to be a Kargatane!
Read the description of Alignments in the MM (3.0 or 3.5).
So from the MM3.5: This line gives the alignment that the creature is most likely to have. Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to the species as a whole.
This means that their is individual exceptions to the species as a whole. Some might not have the same alignment that the majority of that species have. Maybe that's one in a million or one in an hundred.
Jander is such and exception.
Let's say: the vast majority of vampires are evil except 1 in a million. Jander is that one in a million!
Also check Van Kharkov, he's not Chaotic but Lawful. He's another exception.
Sorry if I sound rude but Jander's debate has been going on for a year now even with Azalin, the once official rule lawyer, said that he was supposed to be Chaotic Neutral.
Originally posted by Aion Khonsu
it seems people didn't like Champions of Darkness because it wasn't how they envisioned Ravenloft.
these are people who have been dealing with a game for longer than i've been alive.
change makes them nervous. CoD was definately a change from how Ravenloft was explained to me back in the day.
I would say the exact opposite of this statement is true Aion. Since I came to the Ravenloft boards It's been all the younger RPGers I've noticed who have the least tollarance for change. The old school gamers usually take 9-10% of anything they find in a game setting, take 2-3% from a resource or module (be it of that world, or whatever is useful to their story) and all the rest would be their own very unique and original creation.
I think this is why so many are lementing the absense of modules AND why only those that are capable enough to write the current books or produce a fan fic book are the only ones that have put out digital version modules for the fans. I see a definate lack of creativity in the younger generation. But its something i see in the society as a whole. Kids aren't exposed to a lot of creativity anymore.
When we were in 3rd grade we were learning about ancient cultures in great detail, and their monumential (read: dream-like) building achievements, reading the greek myths, or stories with no ending, and our homework was to write our own, or edgar allan poe. Or king arthur and robin hood legends. American tall tales like paul bunyon.
My friends kids are entering HS and never heard of half of that stuff.
After a lifetime of computer role playing games they were blown away when i ran an "old school" session for them. (And I'm a self proclaimed player) They couldn't believe that i could weave a story on the fly based on thier actions.
I guess they never played that game in school either where each person adds a sentence to a story.
I think old school gamers do what they always do with a resource. They use what they want and discard the rest or just change it around to suit their needs. I personally don't know why everyone had such an angry response to CoD. I bought it because I was told that and Heros of Light had most of the 3E prestige classes. I was looking for all of them to get the information to the programmers to add them to the Ravenloft video game. I've personally read much more useless or poorly done products for an rpg then that over the years.
Anyone ever read white wolf's Changling?
I still remember the upstairs neighbor trying to sell my group on the idea... and we were like so?
and his excitment revolved around (and i quote) "But! It's in color!" Almost ten years now... and that's still our in-joke for a useless RPG product... But! it's in color!
You guys have to remember, these books are here to give story seeds. YOU'RE suspposed to make it you're own. Personally for template bad guys and weird-o's or for players wanting to play a warped character, i think CoD is a nice little resource.
That's my two bits. Since no one can seem to just review the book without emotional atachment.
If you're a DM, and you know your players well, and you know they want to play a freakazoid or character that walks more towards the shadows then the light, then its a good resource for you and the player to go over together to come up with an interesting character. Going back and looking over the book while typing this, I know anynoe in my group could play one of those characters, and play them well. It IS demanding in one way. You have to be a very good role player to pull most of those character types off. And I DO beleive that is one cornerstone the RL community always thinks of when they think of RL. Role playing comes before hack and slash.
~Andrew Bator
Originally posted by Aion Khonsu
and anyone who hurls insults & "because i say so" opinion without any actual content within their spew can be disregarded in general. they haven't put forth a good argument as to why the book isn't bad.
The whole "because I say so" opinion is the very foundation of a review, and is, in fact, the basis of the entire messageboard system.
It's all somebody's opinion on whatever the subject at hand is.
Take a close look at any review, and you'll see what I'm saying.
Both positive and negative reviews can (and perhaps should) be disregarded (well, given the lazy eye), equally, as they are really nothing more somebody's thoughts on a product. More often than not, somebody who you really have no clue about (be that in a personal sense, or a gaming sense). And to spend your hard-earned bucks on a product just because of somebody else's say is a rather moot point at best...unless you are familiar with the reviewer's likes and dislikes, and feel that that person's taste in products mimics your own.
But the fact remains, the "because I say so" attitude, if I can call it that, is what this is all about.
There's no such thing as a "good" or "bad" argument. It's all about a single person's opinion on any given subject. And that in itself justifies each and every message (be it rant or rave) within any given thread.
Just because you "hate" me and my attitude here on the WotC boards, for example, it don't mean that what I got to say is any less than any other board poster. Or any better, given the flip. It's just my say from my side of the world. Harmless enough, yeah?
A review; an opinion of a (Ravenloft) product should never be attached with the extremes of human "morality" (good/bad)...you either agree, or you don't. And it's that simple.
That's why I scoffed at the idea of telling somebody how they should "effectively" write a review...I wasn't aware a panel of judges were hawk-eyein' our opinions, red pen in hand.
And while we're at it, I have to say, I've noticed that Ravenloft fans in particular are pretty critical of reviews...do any of you agree, or, know why? I mean, it seems that it's more so with us than any other product line. Hell, come to think of it, we're the only lot that openly and so vehemently slams reviewer's reviews. Sure, there are gonna be times when we won't get what the reviewer wrote, but, that comes with the turf man. We don't make coin droppin' what we drop, so let's not even waste the time thinkin' otherwise. And not all of us have the intention of mindbendin' people to buy the product we're talkin about. We're just saying wether we like it or not.
One-word quotes are enough for the movie industry, why not some hobby-RPG?
Again, I could be wrong (with the Ravenloft fans bit above)...like when I thought/said Champions of Darkness was the only product not penned by the ex-Kargatane members...
:DI'm not looking to crack skulls here; I just thought I'd submarine the topic a little...and, again, the quote is the trigger, and nothing but.
"because i say so" is just that. the lack of an explanation behind your critique. just as when your parents didn't feel like explaining anything to you as a child and you had to do things because they said so.
examples:
"Champions of Dorkness suxxors" (or whatever you kids say these days)
"CoD's the bomb, yo. buy it"
both of those are without merit, which is why i constantly urge people to READ THE BOOK FOR THEMSELVES as opposed to listening to my blather and likewise from others.
Barnes & Noble & other larger book stores have a respectable, if not small, selection of gaming books. Most of which are D&D, or some form of White Wolf. it's a good chance you can find it there.
(it's a good chance you can flip through at your local gaming store too, if the guys behind the counters aren't jerks.)
because i've seen too much bashing and/or praising of books in the simplified version without any relevant reasons as to why it was good or bad. this thread consists mostly of useless insults towards the book. that doesn't help exemplify WHY the book is bad. and aside from my non-hateful suggestion to give it a read, there's not really been much of a positive outlook on it.
there's been a much more civil discourse on the thread concerning the RLPHB. curious why it didn't happen here.
Originally posted by the Man in the murk
A review; an opinion of a (Ravenloft) product should never be attached with the extremes of human "morality" (good/bad)...you either agree, or you don't. And it's that simple.
That's why I scoffed at the idea of telling somebody how they should "effectively" write a review...I wasn't aware a panel of judges were hawk-eyein' our opinions, red pen in hand.
This is silly. If a reviewer states that the RL3E base book has wider margins, larger font, and larger B&W illos than a comparable text, that is a fact. It is either true or false, accurate or inaccurate, right or wrong. Review sites such as ENWorld encourage this kind of reviewing--the kind that takes effort, the kind that is supported by facts.
The kind that exceeds a simple opinion.
If our reviews are nothing more than opinions, we ought to be writing better ones. Perhaps we ought to envision a panel of hawk-eyed judges, red pens in hand, if that makes us do a more professional job.
Originally posted by Aion Khonsu
let me clarify then.
"because i say so" is just that. the lack of an explanation behind your critique. just as when your parents didn't feel like explaining anything to you as a child and you had to do things because they said so.
examples:
"Champions of Dorkness suxxors" (or whatever you kids say these days)
"CoD's the bomb, yo. buy it"
both of those are without merit, which is why i constantly urge people to READ THE BOOK FOR THEMSELVES as opposed to listening to my blather and likewise from others.
Barnes & Noble & other larger book stores have a respectable, if not small, selection of gaming books. Most of which are D&D, or some form of White Wolf. it's a good chance you can find it there.
(it's a good chance you can flip through at your local gaming store too, if the guys behind the counters aren't jerks.)
because i've seen too much bashing and/or praising of books in the simplified version without any relevant reasons as to why it was good or bad. this thread consists mostly of useless insults towards the book. that doesn't help exemplify WHY the book is bad. and aside from my non-hateful suggestion to give it a read, there's not really been much of a positive outlook on it.
there's been a much more civil discourse on the thread concerning the RLPHB. curious why it didn't happen here.
They shrink wrap the books at my gaming store.
~B4Real
Originally posted by Jaerdaph Baeloss
Big "Hell No!" to CoD.
Probably the worst Ravenloft product ever...
I thought that was anything after 2e RL shut down....
:DOriginally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes
I thought that was anything after 2e RL shut down....
In my humble opinion, for Ravenloft it's the contrary. The Gazs and VRA are amongst the best product I've seen in ANY edition. I played on 3 so I know what I'm talking about.
If our reviews are nothing more than opinions, we ought to be writing better ones. Perhaps we ought to envision a panel of hawk-eyed judges, red pens in hand, if that makes us do a more professional job.
More professional job about writing our opinions?...uhm...sure.
Maybe if you're planning to be the Siskel/Ropert of RPGs...
(It's a bloody shame that some of you people are such sticklers for reviews man. 'nuff said)
Originally posted by Charney
In my humble opinion, for Ravenloft it's the contrary. The Gazs and VRA are amongst the best product I've seen in ANY edition. I played on 3 so I know what I'm talking about.
I ordered the first Gazette and I do not have the VRA so I cannot say until I actually see those books but with the stuff I have so far....I can easily say 2e had more flavor.
~B4Real
Originally posted by B4Real
I ordered the first Gazette and I do not have the VRA so I cannot say until I actually see those books but with the stuff I have so far....I can easily say 2e had more flavor.
I'd say the Gazetteers are easily the most flavorful stuff in 3e and generally more full of useful info (though a bit lacking in maps) than the modules. But YMMV.
Van Richten's Arsenal is also fun with the different voices of both the twins and their contacts. VRGWalking Dead continues in the same vein.
Originally posted by Awakenings
This is silly. If a reviewer states that the RL3E base book has wider margins, larger font, and larger B&W illos than a comparable text, that is a fact. It is either true or false, accurate or inaccurate, right or wrong. Review sites such as ENWorld encourage this kind of reviewing--the kind that takes effort, the kind that is supported by facts.
Whatever..I personally dislike the enworld reviews for that reason. Most other review sites don't care as much about that. Guess what, #pages, whether its in color, margin and text size, all those things I can see for myself in the store really easily. Whether the ideas are any good or not, I can't tell that without standing there and reading the damn thing in the store.
I mean I could tell you how long a movie is (ie 132 minutes) what actors were in the movie and who directed it, but thats not a review. A review is about whether the reviewer thinks one should spend their money for the product which is all about opinions.
Originally posted by Aion Khonsu
because i've seen too much bashing and/or praising of books in the simplified version without any relevant reasons as to why it was good or bad. this thread consists mostly of useless insults towards the book. that doesn't help exemplify WHY the book is bad. and aside from my non-hateful suggestion to give it a read, there's not really been much of a positive outlook on it.
Another whatever. go look over the reviews again many people listed specific things that are wrong with the book, including some long posts just about the ebon gargoyles. People on this thread have given a lot of reasons why the product is bad. In fact I don't even know why I am responding here since it is so self-evident that many people have given reason's why it is a bad product.
Originally posted by daffy72
You guys have to remember, these books are here to give story seeds. YOU'RE suspposed to make it you're own. Personally for template bad guys and weird-o's or for players wanting to play a warped character, i think CoD is a nice little resource.
Since every book is just for story seeds by your arguement every product is worth buying since I have not seen a product yet in which a story seed could not be recovered. The point of a review is whether the product is worth buying, and guess what with the huge amount of products out there, there are a lot more products out there that are worth buying than champions of darkness. Yes there are story seeds that can be recovered, but unless your name is ritchie rich, spend your money elsewhere. Even the book of vile darkness serves the purpose better then CoD (cash on delivery).
Originally posted by the Man in the murk
More professional job about writing our opinions?...uhm...sure.
Maybe if you're planning to be the Siskel/Ropert of RPGs...
(It's a bloody shame that some of you people are such sticklers for reviews man. 'nuff said)
A good review reflects opinion by stating facts. Saying Champions of Darkness was a bad book is an opinion; stating that it left out most of an NPC's feats is a fact. That fact does not necessarily mean that the book is bad, but it does support that viewpoint.
That's how one professionally writes about an opinion. By stating the opinion, then using facts which support it. An unprofessional opinion, however, is simply an opinion without any support.
Furthermore, reviews are an important aspect of role-playing games. Not everyone has the time to sit in a book store reading all the books available, cover to cover. While you can just browse a book, even the worst of books can have something redeeming about them, or look superficially like they're worthwhile, as the information is spread out. Furthermore, some people have mentioned how their nearest gaming stores are in exceptionally inconveniently far places. Even then, not all places allow the customers to read the books - such as those which shrink wrap everything. So for those individuals - which is most of us, to some degree - a review is important. Something which condenses the book down, provides an opinion, and then uses facts from the book to back up that opinion. And even if the reviewer believes the book is bad, so long as the reviewer actually uses the examples from the book, a potential customer might buy the book anyway, should the individual disagree with the person on just what they think about all the facts and supports presented.
A proper review is an opinion backed up by fact. A proper review serves a point and purpose, for those of us who don't have the time to scrounge through a number of books or don't trust that a quick browsing will give them enough information or for those of us who can't conveniently access those books or for a multitude of other reasons.
Originally posted by the Man in the murk
Let's try to keep an open mind, and allow others to at least try and influence our setting. Just because you made the mistake of buying a product that you couldn't work with, it don't mean the product "sucks". Well, neccessarily.
I agree with charney's point about bias towards non-kargatane authors. After all fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. The writers that the dark duo has rounded up (and the dark duo themselves) have shown to me that they don't know what the heck they are doing. So any product from now on that doesn't have the names james lowder or steve miller attached automatically gets a pass by me, unless people here give them good reviews. The dark duo have shown a lack of ability in the talent scouting area, thus I don't automatically trust any of the writers they bring in.
Originally posted by the Man in the murk
The word "might" was underlined...to say that there may be some bias from those who idolize (bad term, maybe "support" is a better one rolleyes ) what the ex-Kargatane writers are bringing to the setting...just sometimes, not neccessarily apparent, or intentional.
Oh another might/may excuse, like the dark duo's excuse regarding the players handbook. I could easily say that you might be a
That doesn't mean that I am not wrong for doing it. Anyway this kargatane stuff is garbage. The websites gone the kargatane are no more so everybody stop with this bias stuff. The simple fact is they did a much better job then anybody else so far. Everybody can whine all they want about bias its the truth.~B4Real
Originally posted by frandelgearslip
begin second post of rant
I agree with charney's point about bias towards non-kargatane authors. After all fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. The writers that the dark duo has rounded up (and the dark duo themselves) have shown to me that they don't know what the heck they are doing. So any product from now on that doesn't have the names james lowder or steve miller attached automatically gets a pass by me, unless people here give them good reviews. The dark duo have shown a lack of ability in the talent scouting area, thus I don't automatically trust any of the writers they bring in.
Oh another might/may excuse, like the dark duo's excuse regarding the players handbook. I could easily say that you might be a
Heroes of light, van richten's guide to the walking dead (which has not been criticized which kind of ruins your theory).
*cough*ryannaloyrwasanauthorofvanrichten'sguidetothewalkingdead*cough*
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
*cough*ryannaloyrwasanauthorofvanrichten'sguidetothewalkingdead*cough*
oops, I didn't notice that he was one of the authors.
Originally posted by frandelgearslip
Since every book is just for story seeds by your arguement every product is worth buying since I have not seen a product yet in which a story seed could not be recovered. The point of a review is whether the product is worth buying, and guess what with the huge amount of products out there, there are a lot more products out there that are worth buying than champions of darkness.
Yup. If you're creative enough any resource is useful. CoD actually generates alot of good ideas. I didn't think it was bad, or heros of light or champions of the mists. I find resources and the gazetteers more useful for my needs then modules, personally.
Yes, i agree books are way too overpriced, and way beyond my budget. That's why as a group you each get books, or these days you can go to half.com or ebay.
Then again, with 5 books a year not too many products come out that you can't keep up. Plus individual people know what their needs are. I don't look at a review to decide if it's worth buying. I look at reviews to see what something is about/ what content is inside. I trust my own opinion if i want it or not. I just care what's in it. If its useful enough then "is it worth the money" is answered. Maybe the Black Box was worth the money. I still use that RL resource more then anything. The fact that I still use it the most shows what a good product it was. Maybe I would use the red box as much if i had it. The 3e setting book is very helpful too.
The gazetteers are useful too, after I re-read every other resource (minus the novels) for that domain, so i know what events the Gazs are referencing.
The guides, CotN series, the prestige class books.. they add general flavor to RL. you don't NEED them, but they enrich the world.
Originally posted by frandelgearslip
Anyway this kargatane stuff is garbage. The websites gone the kargatane are no more so everybody stop with this bias stuff. The simple fact is they did a much better job then anybody else so far. Everybody can whine all they want about bias its the truth. [/b]
Website's gone, but the noses (lackeys; supporters; worshippers; fans; friends; sycophants, etc., etc.) ain't.
And that means that those people will stand up and support a product just because they fit one of the above-mentioned definitions...which is not wrong, just...misleading.
...was what I was trying to say.
A warning.
It, also, is the truth. Partial, yes, (as not everybody from there can be so defined) but the truth.
Anyway, enough o' me (or, of the portion of my say).
Back to the topic at hand...
Originally posted by the Man in the murk
Website's gone, but the noses (lackeys; supporters; worshippers; fans; friends; sycophants, etc., etc.) ain't.
And that means that those people will stand up and support a product just because they fit one of the above-mentioned definitions...which is not wrong, just...misleading.
...was what I was trying to say.
A warning.
It, also, is the truth. Partial, yes, (as not everybody from there can be so defined) but the truth.
Anyway, enough o' me (or, of the portion of my say).
Back to the topic at hand...
I was negative on the kargatane messageboards of both RL3E and SotDR when they came out, but I would like to say that this whole theory that some people have been espousing is pure bunk. Its of the form of if you disagree with me you must have ulterior motives. I can't trash that theory strong enough. I mean like maybe 3 people are sycophants in their reviews of kargatane products its no more prevalent then that. The simple fact is that the kargatane knew what they were doing and the dark duo haven't proved that they do.
carnival authors: steve miller and john mangrum (of the kargatane).
Originally written by madstepdad
MadStepDad
WOW! The Ravenloft line sure went out with a bang! The Carnival is by far one of the greatest AD&D accessories I have ever had the fortune to get my hands on. I say AD&D, because, even though it deals exclusively with the Ravenloft campaign setting, it can also fit into any other campaign world. Years ago, I read the Carnival of Fear novel, and I loved it. That book is yet another reason why I just can't get enough of the Carnival accessory. The format of the book, with various members of the Carnival giving the grand tour from their own perspective, is absolutely ingenius. This is a definite MUST-HAVE for ANY campaign, not just a Ravenloft one. And that's the beauty behind this product.
Plus, we get to know more about the Gentleman Caller! That guy always confused the hell out of me. And the link to Soth was great. A Five blood drop work of art...
(note: sarcasm engaged)
Wow that madstepdad is sure a sycophant isn't he. He is just a lackey of the kargatane and John Mangrum in particular. We shouldn't listen to anything he says, all he does is worship the kargatane and write glowing posts about everything they do and say. In fact I bet he and John Mangrum are actually the same person and John Mangrum just uses the madstepdad identity to sing his praises.
Could I add a third point of view to this debate? (Well, more like a hundreth point of view, but anyway...)
This is long, but its because its based on an argument I got into months ago and I'm trying to address counterarguments now.
Main Gripe: People that say "people who dislike CoD are doing it because they don't like anti-hero games" aren't acknowledging that many of us in fact do like anti-hero games and don't mind the changes in setting (I didn't mind the Sheriff too much though I did think he was a little out of place), but have a problem with the horrible munchkinistic overpowered and sometimes unplayable rules in the book.
Main Source of Frustration: I'm a "narrativist" GM and like to focus on character interaction over other things (like "completing missions" and tactical combat). Still, I notice way too many people think that rules are completely unimportant. If you don't care about really poorly made rules at all, why aren't you just freeform storytelling?
Major Point: There's a difference between a matter of opinion (some people like the Sheriff, some don't) and a mistake made by the authors of an RPG book (the Energy Drain feat uses AD&D 2nd edition rules for level draining because the author apparently never bothered to read the DMG and nobody proofread it.)
Major Point 2: There is nothing about an "anti-hero campaign" that has anything to do with "not reading the rulebook for the game you're being payed to come up with additional rules for." There's also nothing about it that says "Anti-hero campaigns need to be munchkin powerfests."
Specific Things:
-3e energy drain grants negative levels for the first 24 hours; it does NOT cause hit dice or level loss. Ravenloft is no different from normal D&D in this regard. But the Energy Drain feat doesn't grant negative levels, it uses the old 2e rules to some extent.
-The Energy Drain feat is incredibly powerful and ridiculously unbalanced. They could have had a good "anti-hero touch of darkness" power that didn't translate to "first level cleric with high Cha can obliterate a werewolf with his bare hands."
-Machivellian grants twice the bonus to skills as any skill feat in any other D20 product I've ever read (and I've read a lot.) The requirement that they need ranks in the skills it gives bonuses to is not a balancing factor, because almost any character that would get a feat like this would have ranks in those skills anyway.
-Life Force Sacrifice lets you swap out a memorized spell for a different one (in your "repertoire") in case you memorized the wrong one. It has requirements for what a sorceror needs to get the feat. WHY WOULD A SORCEROR NEED THIS FEAT?!!! A sorceror can cast ANY spell from his "repertoire" anyway.
-Mesmerizing is funny. Its one of the few underpowered mistakes.
1) What exactly is so powerful about Diplomacy and Hypnotize that a standard "+2 to two skills" feat needs to have insanely high requirements? (No other "+2 to two skills" feat has a requirement at all.)
2) This is a bit nitpicky, but attribute levels for feat requirements are supposed to be odd numbers.
Mimicry
"Any spells that influence animals also gain a +2 bonus..."
+2 bonus to what, exactly?
Unwholesome Ichor is a neat idea. The problem is, it means that the majority of monsters in Ravenloft won't attack a possessor more than once. That's a bit overpowered.
Anyway, there are some other major examples of laziness in there, but I'd like to end my post now, though I want to insert two feats and an NPC concept I think would have fit real well
Awesome
Prerequisite: Must be a munchkin.
Benefit: You gain 10 levels instantly, as well as 3 bonus feats (in addition to those you gain from levelling up.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. It's affects stack. (Okay, that was a bit mean, they didn't make a lot of grammatical errors. But I had to do it.)
Amazing
Prerequisite: Dex 12.75
Benefit: You are so amazing that you gain a +3 bonus. In addition, you are so fast that your foes have their THAC0s increased by two when fighting you, unless they are left-handed, in which case you roll 2d6 and they have a +3 penalty if its even but a -3 penalty if its odd.
Frankenstein, 10th level thief
HD 10d8+3, HP 245, THAC0 -3, AC 30 (Touch 32, Flat-Footed 27), Attacks: Slam +3 (1d6+1d4+1d3/2+17 dmg, critical hit on 14-20 except 17 and 18, does x3.5 damage.)
Special Ability: Frankenstein can fire his shoulder mounted rocket launcher once per increment as a move-equivalent action that takes a full round to complete. It does damage and has a +4 bonus. It does x13 damage to werewolves.
Originally posted by frandelgearslip
(note: sarcasm engaged)
Wow that madstepdad is sure a sycophant isn't he. He is just a lackey of the kargatane and John Mangrum in particular. We shouldn't listen to anything he says, all he does is worship the kargatane and write glowing posts about everything they do and say. In fact I bet he and John Mangrum are actually the same person and John Mangrum just uses the madstepdad identity to sing his praises. [/b]
*rotfl*
Really, that does prove your point! Definitely!
W.C.
But it's flattering to know you're on the tip so much you saved all my reviews.
Plus I take it all back. I was drunk.
Originally posted by Belac
Amazing
Prerequisite: Dex 12.75
Benefit: You are so amazing that you gain a +3 bonus. In addition, you are so fast that your foes have their THAC0s increased by two when fighting you, unless they are left-handed, in which case you roll 2d6 and they have a +3 penalty if its even but a -3 penalty if its odd.
Frankenstein, 10th level thief
HD 10d8+3, HP 245, THAC0 -3, AC 30 (Touch 32, Flat-Footed 27), Attacks: Slam +3 (1d6+1d4+1d3/2+17 dmg, critical hit on 14-20 except 17 and 18, does x3.5 damage.)
Special Ability: Frankenstein can fire his shoulder mounted rocket launcher once per increment as a move-equivalent action that takes a full round to complete. It does damage and has a +4 bonus. It does x13 damage to werewolves.
ROTFL! I don't actually own CoD, but from what I've seen flipping through it, this is painfully accurate . . .
Originally posted by frandelgearslip
This review comes from the kargatane website under the reviews/carnival. Of course the site is now down, but one can find anything with google. Also note this is part of the above discussion, so take it in that context.
carnival authors: steve miller and john mangrum (of the kargatane).
Heh.
That is the best.
If ever I needed any bit of support and verification for some of my thoughts, there it is.
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
...you saved all my reviews.
Read all the post. It came from a Google search. I was able to find it myself; it was the second result that popped up. The third one was another review from the Kargatane web-site, which was on From the Shadows, which you gave all of 3 and a 1/2 Blood Drops. So the idea of you giving a blanket 5 Blood Drops to Ravenloft products, thus why we can ignore the review on Carnival, doesn't hold up.
La dee da. Ahh well. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see this thread being much longer for this world if all this keeps up.
It's a minor thing, but it derails your whole argument. Note the usage of the word "most" instead of "all".
And I still don't believe you.
Google search? The ones that say:
The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please try the following:
If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly.
Open the kargatane.com home page, and then look for links to the information you want.
Click the Back button to try another link.
Click Search to look for information on the Internet.
HTTP 404 - File not found
Internet Explorer
That dude saved my stuff cuz he's on the tip hard. He's follows me to every post in hopes of his heroes hiring him one day. But they're dropping like flies!
Ya'll be trying to assassinate my character constantly! Witness Andrew's resignation post.
You're a buncha frauds.
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
Scream "MURDER", but I don't believe you!
It's a minor thing, but it derails your whole argument. Note the usage of the word "most" instead of "all".
And I still don't believe you.
Google search? The ones that say:
The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please try the following:
If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly.
Open the kargatane.com home page, and then look for links to the information you want.
Click the Back button to try another link.
Click Search to look for information on the Internet.
HTTP 404 - File not found
Internet Explorer
That dude saved my stuff cuz he's on the tip hard. He's follows me to every post in hopes of his heroes hiring him one day. But they're dropping like flies!
Ya'll be trying to assassinate my character constantly! Witness Andrew's resignation post.
You're a buncha frauds.
Your a fool, go to google and click at cache. Your trying to access the webpage, which obviously does not exist anymore. Google takes snapshots of webpages and has them stored in cache. If you click on cache the snapshot will appear which has your review. If your going to make claims know what the hell you are doing.
But my whole point is you PARROTS. A karg guy says a product sucks, everybody jumps in to agree. A karg guy says a product is good, everybody jumps in to agree. YOU, Fran, have proven my point repeatidly.
Review the retirement thread once more. As soon as a karg guy mentions my name and tries to drag me through the mud, you all jump in and agree. But J-dub said it! His word is gospel!
And of course you can't accept defeat. You gotta come up with a buncha of excuses, that sounds like you've been watching Conspiracy Theory too much.
But what's MOST insulting to me is that you think I wouldn't tell that dude what I thought under MY name. Why go through all that computer trouble when I barely know how to run the one I have!
Be a man and recognize your error.
Originally posted by Charney
Yeah but he was a regular at the Goat before he began to write for the setting. And I don't think it's a coincidence that HoL wasn't a disaster and that James Lowder participated in it.
Thanks for the kind words, but my entire participation in HoL was the write-up for the Wanderers. (I do wish that the books were more specific in their ToCs.)
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
I can't let this issue rest until you see the ERROR of your ways! You got me on the Google point. I concede. Damn, is that so hard?
But my whole point is you PARROTS. A karg guy says a product sucks, everybody jumps in to agree. A karg guy says a product is good, everybody jumps in to agree. YOU, Fran, have proven my point repeatidly.
Seriously are we really going to try and lock up another thread?
This was posted by me (the parrot) a couple weeks back on the thread about reviews
Originally posted by frandelgearslip
As for the Mangrum complains and everybody responds with praise part, I would like to point out that he pointed mad step dad out (who I am no fan of), somebody who posts to this here board and called him repugnant, that would seem to be treading close to a flame to me. Mangrum is the best writer that I have seen write for ravenloft, but I don't think it is a coincidence that problems with posters seem to follow him around.
but I don't think it is a coincidence that problems with posters seem to follow him around.
Ain't that the Lady's honest truth there....
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Particularly since it's the same posters.
You keep telling yourself that...I say no more since you have a ring of Wiz_O's to stand up for you no matter what CoC violation you make.....
Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes
You keep telling yourself that...I say no more since you have a ring of Wiz_O's to stand up for you no matter what CoC violation you make.....
Yes, I suppose the WizOs are all ex-Kargatane sock puppets, too. Man, what power we must wield. Makes me all giddy when I stand up quick.
Oh, and I'll have you know that I love d20 Call of Cthulhu and would never impugn it. Good day, sir.
But I have read your writing and felt sorry for you that you have deluded yourself into thinking you were good. (hey Plagerizing 2e will get you only so far). So I'll let the mix up slide seeing how typing more than a few lines gives you a headache...(hate to see you have to lie down or someting)
You may go junior.... :D
Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes
I'd say something about the lack of intelligence it takes to confuse Code of conduct with Call of Cthulhu...( the d20 version sucks by the way)
[foghorn]That's a -- I say, that's a joke, son. (Nice boy, but about as sharp as a sack of wet mice.)[/leghorn]
Originally posted by James Lowder
Thanks for the kind words, but my entire participation in HoL was the write-up for the Wanderers. (I do wish that the books were more specific in their ToCs.)
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Was does ToC stands for???
In my opinion, the Wanderers are what saved that book!!!!
This is quite confusing to read. I can see there´s a lot of flaming going on but how could it ever get so bad?
I´m certainly not a "regular" poster, but I´ve dropped in on the good old kargatane´s boards every now and then in the last 3 or so years. One of the first posts I remember from thoses days was a post by "John of the Mangrum" who was (at the time) writing about why he was losing interest in writing fan fiction for RL (or something like this - my memory isn´t always the best). I feel sure that you take your work very seriously, John - and I think you´re always trying to do as best as you can. I´ve also made the experience that it´s quite difficult to voice an opinion you don´t share without making you upset...
Another thing I remember is a discussion with someone called "MSD" about 2nd edition Ravenloft products, RL3E, Domains of Dread and such + reading an MSD-Version of Knight of the Black Rose adventure. Wich all felt like someone writing who knew a lot about running a ravenloft campaign...
I´m not a native english speaker (so this may have something to do with it) - yet the last couple of posts I´ve read of MSD didn´t even seem close to what I believe to remember of him... It may not be my place to say this (maybe not even my place by far) but
maybe you should take a break and think about what you want to do with your lives, what makes you happy, what makes you sad, and do something to regain some balance and tolerance.
Originally posted by Charney
Was does ToC stands for???
In my opinion, the Wanderers are what saved that book!!!!
ToC is "table of contents." I'm of the opinion that books should always indicate specifically who did what, so that credit (or blame) can be properly directed.
Thanks for the kind words about the Wanderers. It was a lot of fun to write them up.
Cheers,
Jim
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
[foghorn]That's a -- I say, that's a joke, son. (Nice boy, but about as sharp as a sack of wet mice.)[/leghorn]
I was aware of that I just needed something even if it was a reach....:D ;)
Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes
I was aware of that I just needed something even if it was a reach....:D ;)
So, your quest is to take shots at people at any cost, even though these shots are so badly placed they make you look like an idiot? I am unable (as an intelligent person) to fathom what your motivations for this could possibly be.
Originally posted by Bob the Efreet
So, your quest is to take shots at people at any cost, even though these shots are so badly placed they make you look like an idiot? I am unable (as an intelligent person) to fathom what your motivations for this could possibly be.
1. He made a joke I made a counter joke He explained he was I thought I may have explianed I was there. But since you did not get that, I will type slower for you so you can understand next time.
2. idiot = Flame watch it there
3. You claim to be intellegent but yet you a.) cannot fathom a trade of jokes to end tension that may erupt into a flame war b.) cannot comprhend the idea of a joke. I therefore revoke your right to call yourself intellegent.
4. my motivations are my business.
Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes
3. You claim to be intellegent but yet you a.) cannot fathom a trade of jokes to end tension that may erupt into a flame war b.) cannot comprhend the idea of a joke. I therefore revoke your right to call yourself intellegent.
Do us all a favor. Parse this joke for us:
"I'd say something about the lack of intelligence it takes to confuse Code of conduct with Call of Cthulhu...( the d20 version sucks by the way)
But I have read your writing and felt sorry for you that you have deluded yourself into thinking you were good. (hey Plagerizing 2e will get you only so far). So I'll let the mix up slide seeing how typing more than a few lines gives you a headache...(hate to see you have to lie down or someting)
You may go junior.... "
I have to admit that the punchline eludes me. 'Cause right now, it really just looks like a dumb, easy joke went way over your head and now you're clumsily trying to cover your embarassment.
Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes
4. my motivations are my business.
Hmm. Oh, that's right, you're the guy who took personal offense at my labeling one man physically assulting another man simply for "making a pass" as "homophobia," because that term besmirches goodly folks such as yourself for whom gay bashing is apparently an "informed decision," as you put it. (Out of curiosity, did you not notice the violence in the act you were defending, you did you not care?)
...
As a note, there's no "a" in "free speech." Cute website, by the by. Puts me in mind of a comparison Roger Ebert made between Jaws and Ghost and the Darkness.
Do I gay bash? No. Do I go out of my way to assault or ridcule them? no. Hell I know a few and get along with them fine and you'll be surprised to know they know how I feel about their lifestyle. And they accept thats how I feel.
So what the hell, I can't say butt pirate but you can sling terms like homophobe or gay basher to belittle my beliefs? OH yeah PC only works for you if you agree with certain opinons.
As far as the joking goes I was attempting to ease soem tension before it came to this point. I see you do not want to accept that.
But, whats it to matter one of your wiz_o body guards will be along any sec to lock this thread or boot me for making poor wittle j-dubs life hard or some drek like that.
I'd love to see how the hell you handle yourself when you don't have moderators or your zombies around to protect you....ooops maybe I said too much...I'd hate to have to see you in the hospital again....
So if you want to settle this drop it and go on we will if not then tell me now so I can finally shut your copy and paste writing ass out for good.....:D
Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes
So what the hell, I can't say butt pirate but you can sling terms like homophobe or gay basher to belittle my beliefs?
Your beliefs? I used the term in direct reference to a guy who was gloating that he had bashed another guy in the face because that second guy was gay.
Intriguingly, like you, once the spotlight snapped on he backpedaled like mad, alternately claiming to have been joking and making threats.
Someone PLEASE lock this thread.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Your beliefs? I used the term in direct reference to a guy who bashed another guy in the face because that second guy was gay.
I was refering to your use of the word wich to me is just as bad as any other comment that belittles a group, when in the same post you complained about anti-semitism and other "hate terms" then you used one.
And just a couple posts up you said that I was gay bashing as an informed decision.
because that term besmirches goodly folks such as yourself for whom gay bashing is apparently an "informed decision," as you put it.
No I don't gay bash I severly disagree with the life style and I belive I did say I did not agree with the violence.
And yes a broad term like Homophobe does include people who would never act in this way. And I feel it should be considered lumped in with all other slurs of its kind.
I'm a newbie to these boards, so maybe I missed when Mangrum was kicking small dogs or something, but it looks like to me that he's not the one causing problems.
There are something like three "different" posters who apparently think that there's this big conspiracy to support the Kargatane in all arguments, and he..er...they are being extremely rude in giving their "opinions" and not discussing the product, but instead making personal attacks...over and over and over again.
I've been posting on this board all of three days. I posted on the Kargatane boards a few times for a span of maybe four-six days (or maybe a week or two at the most) back when I needed information for running a campaign. I like the 3e Ravenloft stuff a lot more than the 2e Ravenloft stuff but I'm not a Kargatane fanboy. I like the stuff that people who happened to be Kargatane did, but I also dislike some of the stuff that some of the Kargatane wrote.
But whoever these people are that are directing general flames at nearly everyone for no reason, they probably need to be IP banned if possible.
Yeah, I know, I'm a newbie to the boards, its not my place to say this, blah blah blah. Look, this isn't a board for the Kargatane or any other community, its the Wizards of the Coasts board, for all of us who buy their products (or in this case, buy products for a campaign TSR used to own.)
I really don't care about this Kargatane vs several (or one) anti-Kargatane troll debate, except that its getting on my nerves, and he/they are the ones that keep starting the crap. (Note what he/one of them said in Cermak's thread. Out of nowhere, this moron starts flaming for no reason.)
In just a few days, I've seen several different threads erupt into flamewars because of one or a few idiots, and as a Wizards of the Coast customer, I think I have a right to use these boards without having to see this crap as much as anyone else.
I also have the right to start a thread or post in an existing one without fear of having some jerk with severe issues start a flamewar for no reason and get the thread locked.
Originally posted by Belac
Keg of Ale, I think its really unfair to say "you two" when its just one person who is doing this crap.
Who's doing it is pretty immaterial. The fact is, this debate clearly does not belong to this thread and as far as I know, John is smart enough to understand this. By posting replies to each other, both sides accomplish nothing but derail the topic in a not-so-pretty way.
Now if someone could only lock this thread...
Originally posted by Belac
There are something like three "different" posters who apparently think that there's this big conspiracy to support the Kargatane in all arguments, and he..er...they are being extremely rude in giving their "opinions" and not discussing the product, but instead making personal attacks...over and over and over again.
Just as an aside, while in all cases it may not be true, there are multiple posters with an anti-Kargatane bias, as opposed to just one using different names. No need to go stirring up trouble over something which just isn't true.
Forty people disagree, and it's a resistance.
Four hundred people disagree, and it's bloody insurrection.
See how the seed grows?
This is WotC's messageboard site, for sure. There is no question about it. On the other hand, the attitude carried over (which cannot be helped), and so the attitude has phoenixed onto these boards, for fact of continued co-existance.
You don't like to see it, so...look away. Put the conspiracy on ignore; complain until you get our say banned; speak to them (us) in our own "language"...there's tons o ways for you to make your little visit more pleasant.
We're *******s because we don't agree with the majority, or because of how we disagree, whatever. It's all petty. But for myself personally, all my "flame war" posts (probally the lamest term I've ever heard of on these compu-boxes, btw) are all about reaction. Reaction to action, get it? Wether that's right or wrong, I couldn't care less. But from where I come from, you speak up and stand up when you see injustice; wrong done, be that percieved or whatever (redundancy, I know). You just don't put up cos...there is an end to every beginning. And if that means you gotta be classified just to see that end, then so be it. It's a small price to pay. The ends justifies the means. Always.
Who's really to blame, the man who threw the first punch, or the man who goaded the first punch?
I'll tell you this, first-hand: the gawkers only ever really remember the punch...never the cause.
So there you have your conspiricy or whatever. Adn trust me here I have been around long enough to know the wiz_o's have less interest in stopping flamewars and more interest in protecting certian members than you even want to believe.
They have yet to proove anyone who has brought up the "certain 'members' are more equal" argument wrong.
So go ahead lock the thread. Let it spill over to others. It solves nothing. Or this solution is better: get cracking on all posters treat them all the same. Don't protect certain others just because they have some fleeting status.
Hell we wouldn't be in this mess if Wotc would have just kept Ravenloft and wrote it itself instead of pimping it out to a sub-standard company....
Originally posted by frandelgearslip
The simple fact is that the kargatane knew what they were doing and the dark duo haven't proved that they do. [/b]
and the point lost here is simple: this "dark duo", while they may have (along with others who nobody ever mentions) put out a product that was...awkward, first-glance, they're not given the second chance that, I feel, they deserve.
"I'm not going to support anything that these people ever do again", and crap like that is...whatever.
So, to say that the Kargatane knew what they were doing, and the dark duo don't...that's misleading. Like I already mentioned. The implication being that everything the Kargatane (ex) will ever write is automatically better than the dark duo's, or a superior product.
It's your opinion, and that'll always stand...just, the dark duo know what they're doing, too...it just don't happen to show with those with tight expectations...those who've been to SotK, loved the netbooks, and were oh-so-joyous when somebody whose writing has become familiar to them, through lack of competition, suddenly became the official writers of the resurrected 3E version. Now don't take that as me bashin those guys, they are writers with solid heads and a steady hand, but there are others of the flip. Another point lost in my delivery...
I'm just tryin to get it out that certain individuals will "jimmy the vote" of the product...just cos of one of those reasons mentioned.
I'm sure it happens with all the other settings, but I can only speak, knowin what I personally saw.
Second, the Kargatane (as writers, not some idols of a fan club) are better writers (for Ravenloft) than the people at Arthaus, so the claim that Wizards has outsourced it to a substandard group as a shot at the K is sort of a hollow claim.
Originally posted by frandelgearslip
(note: sarcasm engaged)
Wow that madstepdad is sure a sycophant isn't he. He is just a lackey of the kargatane and John Mangrum in particular. We shouldn't listen to anything he says, all he does is worship the kargatane and write glowing posts about everything they do and say. In fact I bet he and John Mangrum are actually the same person and John Mangrum just uses the madstepdad identity to sing his praises.
(note: sarcasm ignored)
No, he'd be one of the ones who I couldn't classify as pro-ex-Kargatane...he just happened, it looks like from my quick read, to not like the product.
I never said that if you agree with certain people (on certain things) you're this or that. Or if you disagreed with those same people (on certain things) you're somethin else. I just said exactly what I did.
I have to admit now, that if you haven't been a haunt at that website, you won't know who's legit and who's fulla ****, but the fact remains...they're nameless, yes, but they're out there.
Grain of truth to every review...
(What's that now?, the ****in' third time? SAD man...)
Can't we even have ONE stinking thread that doesn't turn into people bashing each other over the head?
Originally posted by Cole Deschain
Oh for the love of...
Can't we even have ONE stinking thread that doesn't turn into people bashing each other over the head?
I'll take a thread, ONE thread, that'll allow people to bash each other over the head. Or, in the least, allow people to vent their frustrations that they have towards whatever.
Like Plunderer said: ****'s gonna spill over anyway...
Suddenly, an unmoderated Off Topic board seems like a good idea. For the sake of X setting's messageboard.
I mean, sewage comes with population...only, in the real world, they address this problem.
Where's WotC's dump site?
Then again, I'm just an ******* conspiracy-theory monger...
(Truth only hurts if you don't already know it.
)Originally posted by the Man in the murk
I'll take a thread, ONE thread, that'll allow people to bash each other over the head. Or, in the least, allow people to vent their frustrations that they have towards whatever.
Like Plunderer said: ****'s gonna spill over anyway...
Suddenly, an unmoderated Off Topic board seems like a good idea. For the sake of X setting's messageboard.
I mean, sewage comes with population...only, in the real world, they address this problem.
Where's WotC's dump site?
Tell me, how does a place that allow people to bash and flame each other day in day out contribute to make these people more courteous and civilised when posting on a regular forum?
Want to free your "frustration"? Punch a pillow. Want to express your point of view about a topic? Start your own thread, say what you have to say and be polite and respectful about it.
Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes
I can assurre this much this is the only name i have ever used on these boards. .
Here's your commodation.
How about making a post that's actually on-topic for the discussion group, and keep your "I have a hate-on for the Kargatane" crap to your pathetic little "speach" board.
Originally posted by the Man in the murk
I'll take a thread, ONE thread, that'll allow people to bash each other over the head.
My advice? Get a life. If you don't have better things to do than bash people on messageboards, you're a sorry case.
Then again, I'm just an ******* conspiracy-theory monger...
Moronic? Foolish?
Are you stumping for a wordgame messageboard, too?
pick it up cheap on e-bay and you won't even consider yourself at much of a loss, perhaps?
How about making a post that's actually on-topic for the discussion group, and keep your "I have a hate-on for the Kargatane" crap to your pathetic little "speach" board.
I was responding to an accusation and for the record I was NEVER a part of the Kargat site. I ended up in this WHen it spilled to here after the Kargat died.
I never knew anyone there to form that opinion I just see what happened after the refugees came here.
ANd yeah I made a typo so Fing what? why don't you come over and try your trash there and see how far you get.....
Wow. How did it come to this? Seems to me this board is soaking up hate like a sponge...
welcome to the WOTC boards It's like this all the time.
Moronic? Foolish?
ohhh the flames feed them feed them!!!!:sad:
Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes
ANd yeah I made a typo so Fing what? why don't you come over and try your trash there and see how far you get.....
While I appreciate the oh-so-elequent invitation, I prefer to keep better company than the likes of your pal MSD.
I will, however, retract my description of your Ravenloft board as "pathetic." The discussions there are of the type that embody what I've always liked about Ravenloft fans and gamers. Your community has potential. Best of luck with it. (Interestingly, you forbid the sort of behavior that your yourself engage in here.)
Steve Miller, Writer of Stuff
Originally posted by Keg of Ale
[b]Tell me, how does a place that allow people to bash and flame each other day in day out contribute to make these people more courteous and civilised when posting on a regular forum?
It filters all that some people attribute me, and people/posts like me/mine.
At least I'm (through "my way") addressing the problem, and not just wishing that it'll go away...
Folks, all the peace rallies in the world combined, and considering all the effort put into them...we're not no-where closer to peace now than we ever were.
Just wishing get's you nothing, and it gets you nowhere.
What's this got to do with messageboards and rant areas?
I'm sure you've played connect the dots when you were a kid...
Worst case scenario?, the moderators can transfer threads to this dump site, thus keeping the "relevant" messageboard(s) clean.
Or thereabouts.
My advice? Get a life. If you don't have better things to do than bash people on messageboards, you're a sorry case.
I'm not bashing anybody. Not now anyway.
I'm simply re-wording what I said, for those who didn't get it the first time 'round.
In fact, the only person (individual) I've ever "bashed" was...it don't matter cos it got nothin' to do with you. And that's somewhere back down the road. Back when, and nothin today.
Everything else was bash against a mentality...with no names attached.
Why don't you read what I wrote, and ignore the jive that WotC edits on the auto?
I got this feeling that you see curse words, and take that for hate, when in fact, curse words are more daily talk than anything you'll ever read on boards like this.
>insert conspiracy theory here<
Pretty, pretty world we've created here, please don't ruin it with the actual world...
Get a life?
I got one, and it don't end; it don't alter, just cos I'm hackin keys...
How many times have you've ever gotten away with telling people to "get a life" during your, real life, and not been beat?
You get a life...outside o' the box.
Or, better yet, bring yours to it.
P.S.: Folks, this is a classic case of what I said earlier. This post is reaction to action, to reaction, to action. etc...
It's only personal for as long as it takes to read...or for someone to react and keep it goin.
Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes
welcome to the WOTC boards It's like this all the time.
"Be part of the solution" (Option 1):
You Can Make Wizards.Community a Better Place
Our moderators can't be everywhere at once. Therefore, if you witness actions in chat, boards, or lists that you believe harms a guest, damages Wizards.Community, or violates Wizards' or some third-party's rights, please make a note of the time/place where the event occurred and contact a WizO or list admin immediately. If they aren't handy, please see our community contact page.
"Be part of the solution" (Option 2):
Know when to just walk away.
Originally posted by Keg of Ale
Who's doing it is pretty immaterial. The fact is, this debate clearly does not belong to this thread and as far as I know, John is smart enough to understand this. By posting replies to each other, both sides accomplish nothing but derail the topic in a not-so-pretty way.
Give that man a cee-gar. There is just way too much animosity on both sides of the issue for anyone to claim complete innocence.
Now if someone could only lock this thread...
Contrary to popular belief, locking threads and banning IP addresses are things that WizOs do not enjoy doing in most cases. It would certainly be unexpected to see this thread become more civil and avoid being locked, but time will tell on that.
Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes
I can assurre this much this is the only name i have ever used on these boards. And I know a few of the rest that have made these so-called flamewar posts and can assure you that they use one name as well. Sure there may be some that use mups but most of us don't.
So there you have your conspiricy or whatever. Adn trust me here I have been around long enough to know the wiz_o's have less interest in stopping flamewars and more interest in protecting certian members than you even want to believe.
I’ve highlighted a couple of sentences, but did not want to take anything out of context. You’ve been here since only June of this year and you can already assure the community of such broad sweeping statements as that? Hm, interesting.
They have yet to prove anyone who has brought up the "certain 'members' are more equal" argument wrong.
True, because the WizOs do not publicize any disciplinary actions that they are forced to take. The ‘priveliged’ people who do get warned do not talk about it, while the ‘cruelly wronged’ people rant long and loud about unfair moderator practices on this and several other message boards. So the WizOs will never be able to prove or disprove any such theory.
So go ahead lock the thread. Let it spill over to others. It solves nothing. Or this solution is better: get cracking on all posters treat them all the same. Don't protect certain others just because they have some fleeting status.
Aye, aye, sir! Of course, don’t complain if you’re one of the people I have to Force Choke.
I suggest everyone brush up on the Code of Conduct to ensure their future safety.Originally posted by the Man in the murk
I'll take a thread, ONE thread, that'll allow people to bash each other over the head. Or, in the least, allow people to vent their frustrations that they have towards whatever.
Like Plunderer said: ****'s gonna spill over anyway...
Suddenly, an unmoderated Off Topic board seems like a good idea. For the sake of X setting's messageboard.
Take it from someone who's been a part of TSR Online from the AOL days that it will never happen. Ever. If you can't be polite, you're not welcome here. Take your toys and go home.
And lastly; real-world social issues are not an approved topic for discussion on a forum dedicated to a medieval fantasy RPG setting. Any further mention of any such topics in the Ravenloft forum will result in warnings, thread lockings, and other forms of WizO tyranny. If you’re referencing such topics for use in a campaign, go to the Mature line forums. Thank you.
Originally posted by Writer of Stuff
I will, however, retract my description of your Ravenloft board as "pathetic." The discussions there are of the type that embody what I've always liked about Ravenloft fans and gamers. Your community has potential. Best of luck with it. (Interestingly, you forbid the sort of behavior that your yourself engage in here.)
Steve Miller, Writer of Stuff
Well I guess the only words left are thank you very much. As to whether they forbid the same stuff I partake in I dunno I'm not a mod there so I have no clue how they will handle thier site.
Somethings else I want to state according to jedi he may have implied I had been here before june. I wan't I joined up during the 3.$ fiasco, mainly to express my discontent at the uneeded revison.
from the beginning I have saw flame war after flame war happen with the results I have said before. There are quite a few here who do validly think that some members are more equal than others.
This may continue long after I leave. But from what I have seen yes my opinion rests firmly on the fact that authors and designers are given more leeway than fans and critisisms towards them harsh or otherwise are usually edited.
As to jedi's earlier statement it is tru both sides are guilty of this animosity. I think it high time to call a cease fire and everyone withhold comments that may be considered inflammitory.
Kargat or not? who cares the Kargatine is dead leave it and its feuds dead as well.
So honestly lets cool our jets and think of something else like maybe negotiating some form of "peace treaty" before this entire board blows up.
Now all of us are smart in our own way all of us have things to offer Ravnloft as a whole. No matter what product or edition of it we like.
So I am officially laying out an olive branch, Jedi, Mr. Miller, Mr. Mangrum, I offer my apologies and hope to help come to an agreement to stop this flamewar. I am willing to let bygones be bygones and work toward making Ravenloft a better setting.
I will be awaiting your answers.
Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes
Well I guess the only words left are thank you very much. As to whether they forbid the same stuff I partake in I dunno I'm not a mod there so I have no clue how they will handle thier site.
Those aren't your boards you plug in your .sig? I just assumed they were, since they're both admin'ed by the same guy. Oh well, if you say so. Bad assumption on my part.
So I am officially laying out an olive branch, Jedi, Mr. Miller, Mr. Mangrum, I offer my apologies and hope to help come to an agreement to stop this flamewar. I am willing to let bygones be bygones and work toward making Ravenloft a better setting.
I will be awaiting your answers.
Works for me.
Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes
Somethings else I want to state according to jedi he may have implied I had been here before june. I wan't I joined up during the 3.$ fiasco, mainly to express my discontent at the uneeded revison.
Nothing wrong with expressing discontent. And I based my conjecture on the 'Registered: June 2003" underneath your Mind Over Matter avatar.
from the beginning I have saw flame war after flame war happen with the results I have said before. There are quite a few here who do validly think that some members are more equal than others.
This may continue long after I leave. But from what I have seen yes my opinion rests firmly on the fact that authors and designers are given more leeway than fans and critisisms towards them harsh or otherwise are usually edited.
That may seem so, but the designers and authors who don't follow the Code of Conduct face far worse things than having a WizO ban their login name. ;)
As to jedi's earlier statement it is tru both sides are guilty of this animosity. I think it high time to call a cease fire and everyone withhold comments that may be considered inflammitory.
Kargat or not? who cares the Kargatine is dead leave it and its feuds dead as well.
So honestly lets cool our jets and think of something else like maybe negotiating some form of "peace treaty" before this entire board blows up.
Now all of us are smart in our own way all of us have things to offer Ravnloft as a whole. No matter what product or edition of it we like.
So I am officially laying out an olive branch, Jedi, Mr. Miller, Mr. Mangrum, I offer my apologies and hope to help come to an agreement to stop this flamewar. I am willing to let bygones be bygones and work toward making Ravenloft a better setting.
I will be awaiting your answers.
My answer is a hearty cheer. Well said, and I hope the sentiment is returned from all the Ravenloft regs.
The propogandist has quite a bit of potential.
You could almost see a group running a regular pnp game, and carrying on the propoganda thru emails, the DM could collect them once a week and set background events in motion based on those writings.
Prehaps as an offbranch of this idea an inventive group could use the same technique like the twins have in their investigations so far, and how they are looking for Van Ritchen. PCs could end up having corrorspondence in Domains they do not normally visit and could have contact with some fampous NPCs. I guess that would fall more under the Heros of light Scholar type.
Originally posted by daffy72
Some book.... huh?
LOL!
Thanks, Daffy. Let's keep this thread alive, and prove that RL gamers can bury the hatchet.
Would anyone mind giving me the facts behind the following opinions? Bear in mind, I haven't bought the book, so this really will influence my decision--I don't know how much:
"The Nightlord was a good idea with pretty lousy execution; the Worldbreaker was bizarre and probably unusuable; the Propagandist type classes were interesting but, I think, very, very difficult to use effectively. "
"The Worldbreaker, like the Tantric Ability feat, probably could've been saved for a Sri Raji Gazetteer."
"The Nightlord was a good idea with pretty lousy execution; the Worldbreaker was bizarre and probably unusuable; the Propagandist type classes were interesting but, I think, very, very difficult to use effectively. "
Worldbreaker: The worldbreaker description's first sentance says the PrC is NOT for PCs to use. The worldbreaker is more of something to spice up a villian than anything else, and i think a lot of people keep forgetting that.
Nightlord: Another NPC one, the Nightlord is a major servant of a darklord. something akin to their best "knight." Though i'm not sure how exactly the execution of it is "lousy" without more insight into that by its commentor, it could possibly be that they weren't thinking NPC-Henchmen.
Propagandist type?
well there was one that was Propagandist. if he meant things like it i could only assume: Charlatan, Propagandist, & Manipulator.
Propagandist is definately difficult to use effectively if the game is about hunting down evil and smiting it. If the domain is instead one where the pen IS mightier than the sword, this could be a useful PrC.
Charlatan and Manipulator, likewise, require interaction rather than skewering people.
The only pure "fault" is that Manipulators are said to come from bards or aristocrats. But the requirements are LN or LE. neither of which a bard (by the strict rules, mind you. bend them if you wish) can be. personally, i'd switch its requirement to non-good.
"The Worldbreaker, like the Tantric Ability feat, probably could've been saved for a Sri Raji Gazetteer."
Worldbreaker PrC and Tantric Ability feat are both described to be of Sri Raji. Thus, they could have fit very well within a gaz that focused on non-core domains. while the feat isn't terrible, it's also not exactly one everyone's going to pick up (as most games don't necessarily focus upon the details of what goes on behind the bedroom door).
Kidding.
I really don't see why so many think alot of these classes can only be reserved for NPCs
Then again, when my group played RL, we used crit charts to speed thru any conflict or battles so we could get back to the role playing parts.
In the road to Darklord-dom there is a specific point when PCs become 'useful thugs' to the Darklords. I think a little info as a generic Prestige Class actually helps open up this avenue so the character isn't 'cast off' at a specific point. Also, the few times in all the years we played that a PC did decend so far it was usually the PC who suggested to the DM ok, this is a good place to make him an NPC because its what fit the character or made for the best story.
Many times, it would be a situation where the party is going in direction x, and the spiraling character ~to remain in character~... would stay in location y or go in direction Z, and so they would. And retire their character to their fate.
After you play a character for a while, don't you start to see what actions are definatly the ones that character would make, even if its something you yourself would never do?
Don't you sit there cursing saying, god, no one in their right mind would open that door? (example), but my character certainly would.. 3 heartbeats.... DM "What do you do?"
*Sigh... I open the door.
Its like when writers say... I wrote such a such, and the character said in my head, I'd never say that, so I changed it.
Or when they say the dialogue just came out.. it's what the character would do... RPing is like that.
Finally...
Depending on the relationship the party had with that PC up to that point, sometimes the party would change direction, and follow that one PC (or sometimes, NPC). Or they should if they stayed in character.
I can see any of those character types in CoD as playable. Granted some only in specific cases.. like the worldbreaker.
In response to Brandi: The differences in a nightlord, that's where you and the DM go out for coffee before the next session and you say.. "I have this idea for my next character..."
if you look at the PrCs though, there is a good mix of what would be useful across the different CLs of the domains.
manipulator, propagandist, charlatan, etc would be more in places with a higher CL
nightlords seem to fit the more feudal areas with their feel. and they're not exactly something to write home about when it comes to being in the service of a darklord. so the captain of a squad of men might be one. but not the general.
Originally posted by daffy72
I really don't see why so many think alot of these classes can only be reserved for NPCs
probably right in the text of both Nightlord & Worldbreaker where it mentions these are designed FOR NPCS AND NOT FOR PCs.
That and, as Brandi said, the bag of abilities is pretty lame... Also, many Darklords don't have the planar knowledge to understand all the abilities they theoretically imbue their servants with- Drakov doesn't have a clue.
Originally posted by Cole Deschain
Also, many Darklords don't have the planar knowledge to understand all the abilities they theoretically imbue their servants with- Drakov doesn't have a clue.
Come to think of it... how many Darklords would? Several are native-born and probably only vaguely know of the Near Ethereal-- if that.
And daffy, the Propagandist, Nightlord, and Worldbreaker are explicitly recommended for NPCs only (p. 32, 29, and 39 respectively).
Awakenings: I was the one who commented on the Worldbreaker and Tantric ability. The worldbreakers are described specifically as select priestesses of Kali, a religion that's *very* unlikely to be seen outside of Sri Raji, and Tantric Ability is "generally practiced by the inhabitants of Sri Raji" (p. 45). Nothing wrong with them particularly but I remember thinking that maybe they should've been saved as tasty bits of info for a Sri Raji Gazetteer, much as how Grimetrekkers and Lamplighters make a better fit for Gaz3 than they would've in Champions of Light, say.
Looking through the book again-- I actually like the Mesmerist, Moon Bane, and Solitary Outcast PrCs, though I suspect that last one wouldn't work in all parties (especially if a lot of adventuring takes place in cosmopolitan domains). Mesmerist would seem like a likely PrC for Daclaud Heinfroth, and possibly Dr. Illhousen as well (though I doubt he'd use the shadier abilities!).
Alright, I'm a supporter of the Ravenloft line. Think that's well known. I stand by giving the Duo a chance and think that the Ravenloft line is doing well and you don't have to have name: X to write a good product. Everyone and every product has their good and things.
That said, Champions of Darkness is crap and a waste of money. Barely looked at my copy since I finished reading it and considered it soon to be un-canon. Tried to salvage bits and pieces and elements but most of it is such inapropriate sludge.
I'll give the author's later books a chance, this was their first foray into the Mists. Hopefully they read the reviews and know how badly they ered. Making mistakes is bad, but one should be given a chance to learn from them.
While all books have their redeemable elements for story seeds officail products like this should have more than a few useable elements. You can get story seeds and adventure hooks from anywhere. And official supplement to last weeks newspaper which you found crumpled and waterstained at a bus stop.
When you pay money for a RL product there should be some good contenet that advances the setting, updates old characters continuing their stories, or give lots of rules, equipment, feat, PrC, etc.
CoD does have several feats and a couple PrC that could be of use but the bulk of the book just isn't worth it, sadly. The updated characters like Jander aren't improved -we don't learn anything new about Jander of what he's been through since we last saw him- the character and history, the elements that seperate Ravenloft NPCs and villians from other NPCs are missing. Especially with such NPCs as Sherrif Von Zarovich and the Ebon Gargoyles that are player killers without any spark of life, tragedy, the like. They're just stats on a page.
There are also simply too many elements that break with the feel of Ravenloft or contradict the setting. Such as the high power and high magic elements in the Ebon Gargoyles. By removing what makes Ravenloft unique it turns it into Dragonlance or the Forgotten Realms with different place names.
If the book can be bough used for dirt cheap or the like then maybe get it. But avoid paying full price for it!!
Originally posted by Aion Khonsu
probably right in the text of both Nightlord & Worldbreaker where it mentions these are designed FOR NPCS AND NOT FOR PCs.
Actually it doesn't say that.
Night Lord p.29- This prestige class should be reserved for NPCs.
SHOULD not HAS TO, not IS ONLY INTENDED AS AN NPC. In other words, some advice to DMs that it could unbalance the game. Some DMs know their players well knough that they can listen to a Player make a pitch for a specific character and make an informed decision as to weather they are mature and responsible enough to play such a character.
Sometimes, in our RPGs on occasion, the DM has let some of us start out as spies infiltrating the group. Did we do it for power sake? No, such a position made you more a pawn and lackey then anything else. But it was fun sometimes. Or it made for a great story. Or it made SENSE, that a powerful villian who is
thwarted by a group more then once would take such measures to try and destroy them.
Sometimes even the DM would ask if we wanted to play a bad guy. Being evil is fun. Why? Because good is dumb.
You were right about this one.
Worldbreaker p. 39- This prestige class should be available solely for NPCs. I glanced over this one truthfully. I like the idea of working for Kali, but I never liked the Domain so I really didn't read this in depth. Truthfully looking at this again, it DOES belong in the sri Raji Gazetteer. I bet they reprint it in there too. Why pay the poor freelancers when you can take from stuff you've already put out?
It might have some useful info in it though, considering it says the worship of kali resurfaced in 740. I guess a player and DM could come up with a character out of the info there.
If anyone cares, much of the RL materials that have said- for NPCs (2E and 3E) actually can be made for players in the video game, since people CAN go off in all different directions in a vid game. Its one of the few advantages I see over old style pnp.
The one thing pnp will always have is the ability to create the story on the fly. We have put much of our manpower into trying to capture even a kernal of this essense in the tools we are working on. I've just started talking with another amazing programmer in the NWN community. He is a master at randomizing much of a story. Along with our own miracle worker programmers who have been working on this as well and if we can find some common ground to work together, I may be reporting on some truly amazing developments in the weeks ahead.
~Andrew
Originally posted by daffy72
Its one of the few advantages I see over old style pnp.
What's PnP?
pen and paper
at least that's what I think it means. Its cyber speak for us crusty older role players and refers to paper and dice games.
I assume it stands for pen and paper.
Originally posted by malken
What's PnP?
"Pencil and Paper," I think.
Or it could be the world's most popular live-action RPG... "Plights and Paychecks"!
yes, it stands for "Pen(cil) 'n Paper" and it is mostly used online to differentiate between CRPGs and non-CRPGs.
Originally posted by Writer of Stuff
While I appreciate the oh-so-elequent invitation, I prefer to keep better company than the likes of your pal MSD.
I will, however, retract my description of your Ravenloft board as "pathetic." The discussions there are of the type that embody what I've always liked about Ravenloft fans and gamers. Your community has potential. Best of luck with it. (Interestingly, you forbid the sort of behavior that your yourself engage in here.)
Steve Miller, Writer of Stuff
Actually it is not his Ravenloft board it is mine.
And your un-checked flaming(What is happening on this thread.) is one of the minor reasons why the board was created. If you do not like it do not join but also keep derogatory remarks about it to yourself.
Now I want this thread back on point.
~B4Real
Originally posted by B4Real
Actually it is not his Ravenloft board it is mine.
And trust me, no one is more appreciative than I am of the irony in a message board whose owner heatedly requires "no harrassing," "trolling," or "baiting" (leaving aside the quaint "no Feminazis") in his code of conduct, and who then started and has continued to be active in a thread devoted entirely to monitoring my posts here and ragging on me (and the WizOs supposedly in my pocket).
It's also interesting that, as of sometime this morning, you changed the board so that non-registered visitors could no longer read its contents.
But I guess you're just "keepin' it real."
Originally posted by B4Real
Actually it is not his Ravenloft board it is mine.
And your un-checked flaming(What is happening on this thread.) is one of the minor reasons why the board was created. If you do not like it do not join but also keep derogatory remarks about it to yourself.
Now I want this thread back on point.
~B4Real
You've got flamers promoting your board in their .sig. Not my fault you've got such hi-class clientel.
And the flaming had stopped, peace-pipes smoked, and so on, so if you wanted the thread back on point, you should have kept *your* remarks to yourself, no?
And you don't have to worry. I won't join your board, although I had already retracted my derogatory remarks. In fact, they were retracted and replaced with a compliment in the very post you replied to. Oddly enough.
Originally posted by Brandi
Awakenings: I was the one who commented on the Worldbreaker and Tantric ability. The worldbreakers are described specifically as select priestesses of Kali, a religion that's *very* unlikely to be seen outside of Sri Raji, and Tantric Ability is "generally practiced by the inhabitants of Sri Raji" (p. 45).
Hmmmm...okay, I understand your logic. Since we may have to wait a while for the Sri Raji Gaz, I may add them to my small but growing list of reasons to buy CoD.
As for whether a particular class is meant for PC's or not, I consider that a matter of what type of campaign you run. IMC, the True Necromancer wouldn't be a PC class, for example. If this was the book designers trying to help me make such a judgement, that's one thing, but if they hoped to hide some world-shattering powers behind this recommendation, I'll be a little upset.
As for whether the Nightlord is intended as a one-size-fits-all NPC, that's the kind of thing that's easily fixed, actually. Just give Nightlords to DL's that you deem appropriate. A similar treatment would fix the "have made a deal with the DP's" requirement: substitute this as failed X number of powers checks, or committed an act of ultimate darkness, or something like that.
Now can anyone give me specifics on the following statements:
Brandi: "I actually like the Mesmerist, Moon Bane, and Solitary Outcast PrCs, though I suspect that last one wouldn't work in all parties (especially if a lot of adventuring takes place in cosmopolitan domains). "
Cole: "...as Brandi said, the bag of abilities [for nightlord] is pretty lame...."
Thanks for all your help, everyone, and thanks to all those who are helping to keep this thread on topic.
~B4Real
Originally posted by Brandi
I actually like the Mesmerist, Moon Bane, and Solitary Outcast PrCs, though I suspect that last one wouldn't work in all parties
Oooo! Oooo! One of my playas actually earned two levels in Solitary Outcast. He thought it was one of the coolest Prestige Classes out there.
And for the record, I like Champions of Darkness. But what does my opinion matter? I liked SotDR and Carnival too.
The Mesmerist prestige class is for someone who's decided to make a deep study of hypnosis. The class allows a small amount of spell-casting, with the spell list logically being mind- and emotion-affecting spells (although they did throw in prestidigtation, maybe to make simple hypnotic patterns instead of using the classic pendulum?). He develops the ability to diagnose what sort of insanity a person may be suffereing from, bonuses to the Hypnosis skill when using a focus, bonuses to skills involving speaking (he's presumed to have a soothing voice), and eventually even the ability to calm animals.
The final feature in the class is the one that would be used to tempt anti-heroes: the mesmerist can attempt to lower the effective Will of someone he's hypnotized, making it easier to implant suggestions or use other spells on him. You can see what could follow... (and that's the ability I can't really see Dr. Illhousen using)
Moon Banes are people who have either been cured of lycanthropy or who still suffer from it but have some way of keeping it in check (a magic item, a trusted friend who locks them in a strong cage), however. It's got elements of the Avenger/Monster Hunter (the moon bane gets a studied foe bonus against lycanthropes), as well as animal-empathic talents related to their lycanthropic type. It struck me as a potentially interesting class for anyone who's had no real success in dealing with lycanthropy should they be cursed. Even Genny W-F might progress in this class, which would tend to make her seem a bit spookier as she gets more in touch with wolves...
The Solitary Outcast is almost self-describing-- it's someone who's been abandoned early in life for various reasons (being a caliban's the likeliest one) and has come to rely on no one but themselves. It has some ranger-like features, and the interesting 'Master of Language' advantage (presumably outcasts pick up a fair bit of language study as they wander), and an effect similar to the Vistani static burn-- if an outcast settles someplace for more than a month they start losing their class advantages, once per week.
The reason I was less sure how well it would work in some games is that if the DM is planning a campaign of courtly intrigue in Dementlieu (say) a Solitary Outcast is really going to be a wrench in the works, considering that one of the requirements for the prestige class is an OR of 3 or more! For that matter, if the PCs are initially planned to be folks who knew each other for a long time, fitting an Outcast in at the start will not work real well.
the funny thing about signing a contract (whether it be physical or intangible) is that the one who drafted it doesn't need to be there when you sign it.
so, in some instances, commiting an act of ultimate evil (or whatever) might actually be the agreement, whether or not the recipients know it or not.
think Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
(I remember that some books claimed he made a deal with Ianjura or whatever his name is, the daemon, but if I recall correctly, that was for military victories, not what pulled him into Ravenloft.)
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
Oooo! Oooo! One of my playas actually earned two levels in Solitary Outcast. He thought it was one of the coolest Prestige Classes out there.
And for the record, I like Champions of Darkness. But what does my opinion matter? I liked SotDR and Carnival too.
Carnival kicked ass, there was nothing wrong with that.
SotDR was passable until the Gaz came and redid all the stats and histories; it served its purpose as place-holder and served it well.
The PrC and Feats have always been the redeemable qualities of CoD. It's everything else that's troublesome.
I agree that the Worldbreaker class might be unussual but as stated we have a long while befor Sri Raja gets the Gaz treatment. Longer than most clusters as Zhestria, Amber Wastes, Frozen Reaches and others will come out far quicker. I can't picture a glut of people wanting to run campaign in the Wildlands or Sargossa.
As for the comment that the Night Lord PrC and the like are only labeled "should not be used by a PC" not "has to ONLY be used by NPC", I think the latter was strongly implied.
Really, you can't ever call anything impossible in a game book. You can strongly emphasise why a class shouldn't be taken, like the NPC PrC in CoD and HoL, but you can't really ban it. There's always someone somewhere who thinks it is a good idea.
Even a PC Darklord which is the closest you can find to banned in the RL book, they ALWAYS advise against it. But somewhere there is a DM who had a Darklord player, probably a few.
And if done right a campaign with a PC as a Darklord could be very fun and entertaining if done maturely and properly.
Back onto CoD, I think one of my biggest problems with the book was the unfulfiled potential. I heard about them making a book about playing anti-heroes and set my hopes high, there was so much that could have been covered. Rules for playing monsters and appropriate feats, a different Power Checks table for evil characters or an alignment based one, new Paths of Corruption, plus lots of info on making good villians and tools for the like.
But no, instead we get a book with a handfull of passable feats and a few PrC and poorly done NPCs who are shallow, poorly made, or simply baddly done by the rules. And instead of updating old groups with new information and playing off Ravenloft's history with a combination of the entirely new we get almost entirely only new people and organizations that really aren't great.
I'm rambling now so I stop...
Originally posted by B4Real
Again...the topic of this board is Champions of Darkness. You have been reported.
So... you make a completely off-topic post, then leave off with the 'let's stay on topic' admonishment (even though you don't do so yourself), and then you decide that someone who has something to say about what you said deserves reporting for being off-topic?
Oh, let's keep on the CoD topic, guys (hey, maybe it'll work for me, too).
Originally posted by The_Jester
Carnival kicked ass, there was nothing wrong with that.
SotDR was passable until the Gaz came and redid all the stats and histories; it served its purpose as place-holder and served it well.
Ummmm, thanks for the rehash Jester. I guess that was for the people who didn't quite catch it the first time.
Book of Crypts and A Light In The Belfry are great too.
Originally posted by Bob the Efreet
So... you make a completely off-topic post, then leave off with the 'let's stay on topic' admonishment (even though you don't do so yourself), and then you decide that someone who has something to say about what you said deserves reporting for being off-topic?
Oh, let's keep on the CoD topic, guys (hey, maybe it'll work for me, too).
You have been reported as well.
On another note, Thank you to all of the boards posters for their insight on the CoD book.
~B4Real
Originally posted by B4Real
You have been reported as well.
On another note, Thank you to all of the boards posters for their insight on the CoD book.
~B4Real
No one was flaming when you reported them though. So nothing will happen.:invasion:
Originally posted by Acolyte of Death
No one was flaming when you reported them though. So nothing will happen.:invasion:
Leave that decision up to WoTC and let's try to keep this thread on topic from now on.
~B4Real
Originally posted by B4Real
Leave that decision up to WoTC and let's try to keep this thread on topic from now on.
~B4Real
It WAS on topic.
Nuff said.
In Conclusion
From all I've seen and heard over several months of browsing opinions on this book, it sounds like it's not worth the money, however, some of the ideas are salvageable
Originally posted by B4Real
You have been reported as well.
On another note, Thank you to all of the boards posters for their insight on the CoD book.
~B4Real
B4Real, just so you know, I have also reported you. Reporting twice in a row for no reason at all, is very bad. Reporting one person for doing somehting you yourself do, is bad. Reporting another person just a few messages down, because that person criticizes your judgement, is even worse.
Discounting the fact that it seems pouting and childish, it's outright harassment in my opinion, because you are not letting people freely express their opinions.
Let's see the thread:
- you reply to Steve Miller for his comments about the board in Plunderer's signature (no relation to the topic whatsoever) and you end by saying "Now I want this thread back on point." We all do, B4Real.
- then John Mangrum replies to your post, also off-topic and also in his usual not very nice style.
- Steve Miller responded to you, claiming that you had failed to see that he had retracted his more negative comments and had only positive things to say about yout site and that you still decided to reply in a harsh tone.
- Awakening writes a full post ON-TOPIC about CoD.
- Immediately after, you write this: "Again...the topic of this board is Champions of Darkness. You have been reported."
Whom has been reported ? The last post was strictly on-topic. Then Bob writes a post claiming that you over-reacted:
"So... you make a completely off-topic post, then leave off with the 'let's stay on topic' admonishment (even though you don't do so yourself), and then you decide that someone who has something to say about what you said deserves reporting for being off-topic?
Oh, let's keep on the CoD topic, guys (hey, maybe it'll work for me, too).
"
And your answer a few messages down is:
"You have been reported as well.
On another note, Thank you to all of the boards posters for their insight on the CoD book."
This is not zeal, B4Real, this is bullying. The messages, at least Bob's, were perfectly inocuous, no harm done, no reason for reporting. Can't take a critic ? Don't speak, or be prepared to be countered. You are not the boards' policeman nor, and you can not always be calling the police over petty issues. Reporting should be done in strong cases of attitude, and there have been several of those in these boards. But reporting for merely writing a few posts relatively outside of the thread-topic is too much.
Examples:
-----------------------------------------------
thread: Becoming a Darklord: Perhaps a bit too Easy?
"He must be new to RL or using that piece of garbage known as the RL PHB that has powers check for every little thing.
~B4Real"
Off-Topic, should have been reported
"I'm new as far as DMing RL goes. I'm using the original 3rd Ed Ravenloft Corebook which has the powers check rules in it. One of which requires a powers check for telling a lie, which is the very crime I'm referring to.
Somewhat off topic, but I was planning on getting the RL DMG and PHB. I heard they have the 3.5 changes. Am I to understand that these are bad books or were you just being sarcastic?"
[Origamicommando]
Off-topic
"The RL PHB isn't very bad, it contains new rules that are very bad addition to the rest (which is from the original 3ed setting)."
[Charney]
Off-topic
--------------------------------
thread: Lord Soth
"Glad you enjoyed the Janus stories, but don't count the books out yet. An editor in New York, at one of the big houses, is reviewing the material for The Screaming Tower, the Ebonacht Trilogy book one, right now.
As for other material--the main character Janus is central to the two short stories you mentioned. He's also appeared in the short stories:
"The Price of Freedom" in Troll magazine #2
"The Night Chicago Died" in the Eden Studios All Flesh product Pulp Zombies.
Those are both alternate history tales (one steampunk, the other set in Prohibition-era Chicago), not dark fantasy like the other two.
Janus is mentioned in, but doesn't show up in a comic book serial I started in Mythography. (I lost my artist before he made his appearance.) He's also slated to show up in a short story I'm writing for an anthology due out next year from Malhavoc. And another company has expressed an interest in a three-issue comic book miniseries about the character, titled Reaver of the Dead, which you will recognize as one of Janus' incarnations we see in "Heresies and Superstitions."
I've got a lot I would like to do with Janus and the Ebonacht material
Cheers,
James Lowder"
Completely off-topic, if you ask me.
"It's entirely up to WotC. I've spoken to them about the subject as recently as a month or so ago, and they have no immediate plans to either release new novels--or to allow others to release new novels. That could change, but nothing is planned right now.
Cheers,
James Lowder"
Again...
"Ebonacht Trilogy book one?
That's "Coming Soon in September 1993", right?"
[MSD]
and off-topic, of course.
---------------------------------------------
Do you see what I'm getting at ? Every thread touches other things than only its title. It's the normal course of a conversation, that's the healthy way of doing it. Of course none of these people should have been reported for such posts, they enrich our knowledge in generaly, they're useful posts.
Posts about our attitude in the boards are useful too.
Now, I have reported you indeed because I want to to give you a warning. And fear not, everything I've said here I've said to the moderator too. I may have gone off-topic and really earned a reporting from you or anyone else, but I feel that this point had to be made.
Alex Miranda
(William Cairnstone in the boards)
from my reading & reading & reading, i've come to the conclusion that a lot of people complain about the NPCs(etc) not offering anything new.
nothing new? really? well sure, it's nothing new if you've been spending over a decade READING MATERIAL ABOUT RAVENLOFT.
funny enough, not everyone who plays now did so back in 75 or 85 or even 95. so guess what, the only place they see Jander Sunstar is CoD.
they've never read anything before. so they read CoD. not a bad writeup for the wordy part. stats, eh, they're good enough.
but what's the complain i hear time after time? "Gasp! he's CE! oh my god, the world is coming to a freaking end!"
seriously, it doesn't make that much difference. there is not ONE DM i've ever met or talked with who sticks adherently to the alignment rules concerning NPCs. you want a cold & calculating vampire, well that'd be LE, not CE. so that "always CE" thing gets tossed.
i, for one, appreciated the second half of CoD because it gave me some information that i didn't have before. i spent the last few decades playing anything other than 2e D&D because i hated it. now that i enjoy d20, i pick up the ravenloft stuff. wow, neat. stuff about characters i haven't had before.
get off your high horse. it's changed. nit-picking alignments & lack of feats (which i find handy for NPC's so i can add what i think is appropriate) doesn't mean a book is bad or good. it means you've got way too much time on your hands and probably have already written up like 5 different versions of Jander.
the only time this kind of thing becomes a problem, well that's already discussed in the RLPHB thread and doesn't exist in the CoD as far as i'm concerned.
Originally posted by William Cairnstone
Let's see the thread:
- you reply to Steve Miller for his comments about the board in Plunderer's signature (no relation to the topic whatsoever) and you end by saying "Now I want this thread back on point." We all do, B4Real.
He must have not read my post about ending the hostilities on this thread -- and in the entire forum. From that point until his post, the thread had become very civil.
Who should receive disciplinary action?
Don't anwer; I've made my decision.
I'm locking this thread since it's too steeped in bad vibes. Go ahead and start another one about the book, but let's keep the discussion about the book, and not about any rivalries between any members of the community.