I put a couple of vermin on the list, as a way of filling up the numbers. Not sure if this is such a good idea though, so again, any input would be great. Enjoy....
1st Level
Boneclaw, Lesser
Carru
Dire Rat
Eagle
Erdlu
Janx
Jhakar
Kes’trekel
Kivit
Owl
Silt Spawn (silt-rich environment only)
Snake (small or medium viper)
4th Level or Higher (Level -3)
Antloid, worker
Carru, bull 6HD
Cheetah
Crodlu
Crodlu, draft
Dire bat
Eagle, medium 3HD
Erdland
Jhakar, medium 6HD
Kluzd
Leopard
Lizard, monitor
Shark, Athasian (aquatic environment only)
Snake, constrictor
Snake, Large viper
7th Level or Higher (Level -6)
Antloid, soldier
Crodlu, heavy
Inix
Kalin
Kluzd, 7HD
Lirr
Lion
Lizard, Monitor 5HD
Puddingfish (aquatic environment only)
Snake, Huge viper
Takis
Tiger
10th Level or Higher (Level -9)
Cha’thrang
Dire lion
Hatori
Jalath’gak
Shark, Athasian, Huge (aquatic environment only)
Snake, giant constrictor
13th Level or Higher (Level -12)
Lirr, large 11HD
Ruktoi (silt-rich environment only)
Sloth, Athasan
16th Level or Higher (Level -15)
Dire athasian shark (aquatic environment only)
Dire tiger
Hatori, Gargantuan 17HD
Monstrous spider, gargantuan
Silt Horror, white (silt-rich environment only)
So I would include spiders to the list. If we already allow vermins on the list than it's no problem. I would also say that centipedes and scorpions are also OK than. Even more, almost all vermin presented in the MM can be a suitable animal companion on Athas IMHO.
A druid with a large scorpion... Hmm, I don't see anything against it on Athas flavourwise as well as balancewise.
In case it wasn't clear, this is the druid animal companion list that will be included in Terrors of Athas. So, if there are no comments or objections, this will become the official list.
Absolutely. Apologies - I should have been clearer on that
Since there are already a few Dire animals in your list, are you supposing all "dire" templated animals could be companions??
Well, only those that would be suitable to Athas (I have a list of those which I will post in a bit). As long as they are of the animal type and of comparable CR to the others on the list then I don't see a problem with it.
As for the vermin, my issue with it is the point that Jon mentions. They have no Int score, which means that they generally don't have any skills or feats. This puts them (and their druid master) at a bit of a disadvantage when compared to regular animal companions. You could rule that a vermin companion is eligible for bonus feats or gains an Int score (while remaining vermin) but again, I'm not sure about this. Thoughts, anyone?
The book Underdark contains a prestiege class that deals with druids and vermin. The vermin companion is given an intelligence of 2, and is no longer considered mindless. Perhaps you could go that way.
A prestige class would probably be a better approach - the one in Underdark makes a decent template to work off. In which case, you would remove the vermin from the basic list with no replacements (following the idea that the athasian ecosystem is sparser than the standard and so has a few less companions on offer).
Originally posted by Kamelion
A prestige class would probably be a better approach - the one in Underdark makes a decent template to work off. In which case, you would remove the vermin from the basic list with no replacements (following the idea that the athasian ecosystem is sparser than the standard and so has a few less companions on offer).
But vermin are part of an eco-system... and in a desert, they are a major part of it. I think that just giving the vermin an intelligence makes a fair trade, otherwise you end up with a VERY small druid list, and cripple them needlessly. Druids have already had to adapt to the changes in the environment, so they would have already delt with this.
But vermin are part of an eco-system... and in a desert, they are a major part of it. I think that just giving the vermin an intelligence makes a fair trade, otherwise you end up with a VERY small druid list, and cripple them needlessly. Druids have already had to adapt to the changes in the environment, so they would have already delt with this.
Well, it would only be four creatures less, so that's not such a big difference. I tend towards just dropping them, but keeping the desert ecosystem flavour is also nice. Are there any other thoughts about giving druid vermin companions a point in Int as an option for keeping them viable for the base class?
Are there any other thoughts about giving druid vermin companions a point in Int as an option for keeping them viable for the base class?
Although no, I haven't thought long and hard about it, it doesn't seem game breaking to vermin a point of Int. Fits with the evolutionary adaption theory, that insects and other vermin are at the barest level of intelligence to become almost trainable and domesticated. Also fits in the ecosystem of the already established insects and such that are intelligent. For those who want real depth, you would have to chance some of the observable behavior of some vermin. They wouldn't simply wander around as much searching for food and a mate, but would now show some signs of curiosity and learning (albeit very small).
If the druid dies, is his vermin still considered intelligent, or does it revert back to the mindless state? Do we treat the Int points the same way as other abilities gained by a companion? Personally, I would favour treating them the same - what do you guys think?
Can a druid switch between having vermin and animal companions? My first impression is that this would be fine, especially given the good points made above about desert ecosysytems and evolutionary adaptation...
As for the prestige class idea, it might be possible to make having a vermin companion a prerequisite of the prcl as opposed to a benefit in some way...
The two main type of creatures who survived in the desert environment are the reptiles and the insects (vermins). The 'normal' Athasian animals are coming mostly from these. Just think about the beasts of burden (inix, mekillot, kank). In line with that I would say it's OK to have vermins as animal companions.
Giving the vermin an INT score of 1 or 2 can be a solution, but don't forget that vermins are immune to mind-influencing effects, and this is a great benefit. It can't be turned against its master. So I would say we don't have to give INT score to the vermin, as they has this extra protection. They can learn the bonus tricks as indicated in the animal companion advancement table, and that's it.
If the improvement needs to be more significant, the vermin can be grown into one size bigger version of itself with a druidic ceremony. This means better skills as well. Of course it has to be included in the animal list that which level of druid can get e.g. a colossal monstrous spider either as a new companion or a grown old buddy. Yikes... ;)
One more thing: as antloids are already on Kamelion's list we have vermins in the play already. So adding the spiders, scorpions, bees, centipedes, and other vermins with all their possible sizes on the list is not a problem.
Well, just to restate, those vermin are only provisionally on that list - we're currently looking to see if that decision stands up to scrutiny. For me the issue is less one of flavour and more one of balance. If you give a vermin an Int score, you have to ditch its mindless trait, and I would argue that a point in Int is at least a requirement for learning the various abilities that come with being a druid's companion. The vermin can then also gain feats and skills without these needing to be bonus. Is this OK? The consenus so far is that it is, and I am leaning that way more myself.
It raises the point you make, which is that all the other vermin should also therefore now be eligible as companions as well. This actually gives the athasioa druid greater diversity than the standard druid, as his list is now far larger. What is the feeling on this, given that the class needs to maintain cross-setting balance? Quite possibly this issue could settle it, if it turns out to be a no-no... (Waves hopefully in direction of Classes Bureau
)The four-handed apes are the feylaar, and are an intelligent species. Tagsters and tigones are psionic, and so are classed as magical beasts - "monsters", like you say. Sloths are fine, though, so long as the druid is high-level enough.
Originally posted by Kamelion
Well, just to restate, those vermin are only provisionally on that list - we're currently looking to see if that decision stands up to scrutiny. For me the issue is less one of flavour and more one of balance. If you give a vermin an Int score, you have to ditch its mindless trait, and I would argue that a point in Int is at least a requirement for learning the various abilities that come with being a druid's companion. The vermin can then also gain feats and skills without these needing to be bonus. Is this OK? The consenus so far is that it is, and I am leaning that way more myself.
As I said, if the vermin can learn the number of tricks stated on the animal companion table as bonus tricks, the benefit of being non-controllable is up to the poorer skill and feat selection. It's a trade-off.
It raises the point you make, which is that all the other vermin should also therefore now be eligible as companions as well. This actually gives the athasioa druid greater diversity than the standard druid, as his list is now far larger. What is the feeling on this, given that the class needs to maintain cross-setting balance? Quite possibly this issue could settle it, if it turns out to be a no-no... (Waves hopefully in direction of Classes Bureau
I don't worry about cross-setting compatibility, as the animal or monster portfolio is given on a specific world. The list in the PHB for animal companions is 90% useless on Athas as the animals like wolf and badger doesn't exist. So we have to have a separate list for Athas, right? ;)
I don't worry about cross-setting compatibility, as the animal or monster portfolio is given on a specific world. The list in the PHB for animal companions is 90% useless on Athas as the animals like wolf and badger doesn't exist. So we have to have a separate list for Athas, right?
Heh - unfortunately I have to worry about cross-setting compatibility, as that is part of the 3e design credo. We do need an Athasian list - the point I am making here is that if we add vermin to the proposed list above, the athasian druid then has much greater choice when he comes to select a companion. Is this balanced or acceptable when compared to the regular PHB druid? Is it worth going down this road just to fill 4 creature slots on the current list?
Originally posted by Kamelion
Heh - unfortunately I have to worry about cross-setting compatibility, as that is part of the 3e design credo. We do need an Athasian list - the point I am making here is that if we add vermin to the proposed list above, the athasian druid then has much greater choice when he comes to select a companion. Is this balanced or acceptable when compared to the regular PHB druid? Is it worth going down this road just to fill 4 creature slots on the current list?
Not just four! All the vermins on the world, unite! Take your places next to your masters! :D
Regarding cross-compatibility: I know the credo, and I don't want to break it. I just want to show you, why my proposition is not breaking it.
Reverse the question. Compatibility should work vica versa as well, right? So the question is:
Is it means any problem from this point of view, that an Athasian druid can't have a wolf as an animal companion? (As wolves are extinct on Athas.)
If the answer to that yes, it means that every gaming world should have those animal that are listed in PHB as druid animal companions to have cross-compatibility. But this is nonsense.
And if the answer is no (and I suppose it is) than Athasian druids can have an other animal companion list, then listed in the PHB. And PHB druids can have animal companions than Athasian druids can't.
Or more appropriately: I think we should say that the animal companion table is not for Athasian druids, but for the world of Athas itself. So if a druid from an other world arrives on Athas, she can have a kank or an antloid as an animal companion if she wishes. If an a Athasian druid goes to an other world, she can choose from the animals living there (wolf, hawk, etc.). With that we have compatibility, as the animal companion list is not tied to the druid but to the world, the environment she is currently in.
Of course a planeshifting druid can keep her current animal companion, if it travels with her, so a druid from Greyhawk can arrive with a wolf to Athas, and has it there. But if the poor animal persihes, the druid has to chose from the Athasian animal companion list for replacement. Works vica versa, an Athasian druid on Greyhawk keeps her antloid, but replacement is allowed from the local fauna only.
The standard druid gets to choose from 12 animal companions at 1st level (I'll just talk about 1st level but my point holds at any level). So the athasian druid should also get to choose from 12 animal companions to keep it balanced. He doesn't choose from the same 12 as the standard druid, but he still has the same amount of choice: 12 creatures.
If you expand the athasian druid to include vermin, the list of companions available to a 1st level athasian druid is suddenly much larger. He now has all the CR1 vermin to choose from as well as those on the basic animal list.
My issue is this: does it matter that the athasian druid has a numerically larger list once you add the vermin?
(I do like your suggestion to make the list world-specific as opposed to class-specific, though. But does this mean that athasian vermin are intended to be different to vermin from other worlds? If you give athasian druids vermin companions, why can't standard druids get them too? More things to chew on
)Originally posted by Kamelion
I understand your point Nagypapi and I agree - the athasian list should be athas-specific. But maybe I'm not being clear with the question I raise. It is purely one of amounts. Let me try again and put it this way:
The standard druid gets to choose from 12 animal companions at 1st level (I'll just talk about 1st level but my point holds at any level). So the athasian druid should also get to choose from 12 animal companions to keep it balanced. He doesn't choose from the same 12 as the standard druid, but he still has the same amount of choice: 12 creatures.
Okay, I also got your point now. Thanks for the agreement!
If you expand the athasian druid to include vermin, the list of companions available to a 1st level athasian druid is suddenly much larger. He now has all the CR1 vermin to choose from as well as those on the basic animal list.
My issue is this: does it matter that the athasian druid has a numerically larger list once you add the vermin?
(I do like your suggestion to make the list world-specific as opposed to class-specific, though. But does this mean that athasian vermin are intended to be different to vermin from other worlds? If you give athasian druids vermin companions, why can't standard druids get them too? More things to chew on
My personal feeling is, that the size of the list doesn't matter so much, as the druid can chose only one companion from it. She has more option to choose but at the end of the day she can go with only one. And don't forget that Masters of the Wild expanded the animal companion list as well. I think until the companions are at the same general strenght it doesn't matter how much option you have, it is not unbalancing.
Seeing it from game mechanic wise: the D&D system is very abstract. There is not much difference between vermin and vermin at CR1. The poisons are different (affecting different ability points), but HD, AC, Attack bonus or dmg is fairly same. 3e with the CR system is absolutly strict on this way. It doesn't let anything overpowered to happen. CR 1 is CR 1 without any extra.
That said, however, my opinions have swung back and forth on this issue, but one thing that seems true is that the issue of vermins raises more questions than it lays to rest. Not that these questions can't be answered or addressed (and the fine analysis above shows just that), but this moves away from 3e simplicity somewhat.
With that in mind, and taking some advice from wiser and keener minds than mine, I think that the best solution overall would be to go with some kind of verminous druid prestige class. It stays within precedent and answers most of the questions raised above. The four vermin provisionally listed above should be ditched - otherwise the list should be fine as it stands
The problem with druidic vermin-companion prestige class is, that the vermin companion doesn't give any extra to the druid, so maybe it's not worth a PrC. It's more stupid (no INT score, few skills, no feats) but more protected (immune to mind-influence). But if you have any fancy PrC idea, go ahead!
Unfortunately it seems we won't have more DS session in this year, due to the exam time of the players. But if I have any further important play experience with our druid with the spider companion, I will share with you. But so far the nice little hunting spider goes OK from every point of view.
Thanks, Nagypapi. Any and all feedback is most welcome
The problem with druidic vermin-companion prestige class is, that the vermin companion doesn't give any extra to the druid, so maybe it's not worth a PrC. It's more stupid (no INT score, few skills, no feats) but more protected (immune to mind-influence). But if you have any fancy PrC idea, go ahead!
Well, I think that the prestige class from Underdark (mentioned by The Arcanist already) would suit just fine. It allows the druid to use his animal handling/wild empathy with vermin, allows vermin companions, gives the vermin an Int and allows it to learn tricks. Check it out if you get a chance...
. . . gives the vermin an Int and allows it to learn tricks.
Ahh, now my druid can finally start up his flea circus! This is wonderful news
Ahh, now my druid can finally start up his flea circus! This is wonderful news
LOL. Don't forget, though, that your druid can only have one companion at a time. That's gonna be one busy flea!
Originally posted by Kamelion
Well, I think that the prestige class from Underdark (mentioned by The Arcanist already) would suit just fine. It allows the druid to use his animal handling/wild empathy with vermin, allows vermin companions, gives the vermin an Int and allows it to learn tricks. Check it out if you get a chance...
Unfortunatley I didn't purchase Underdark, as I don't like FR too much. But if we stack the benefits it rights a PrC. What I mean: I think it is no problem to have a vermin with no INT, but with the vermin protection. If the vermin has INT, but keeps the immunity to mind-influence as well it's a good start for the PrC abilities.
Probably Rasclinn too, if they still exist.
Just a litte note, to add Pterrax to the list.. Or at least for Pterrans. It is a very logical choice for them. Sure, it flies, but heh..
Pterrax are classed as Magical Beast because of their psionics and so don't qualify as animal companions.
Probably Rasclinn too, if they still exist.
Rasclinn would be a good addition - should have included them already. Thanks. They have PR, poison immunity and rage as a 1st level barbarian, which makes them more powerful than most of the other starting companions. I would recommend putting them on the list for druids of 4th level or higher, unless anyone can think of a compelling reason that they should be available for starting druids...
"Pterrax rider" will make a nice prestige class. Someone did a write-up IIRC.
The illustrious Lord Grummore of House Frog did that one, as well as a nifty slimahacc rider prc too...
>sits back and waits for Canada to wake up<
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
"Pterrax rider" will make a nice prestige class. Someone did a write-up IIRC.
Master! By the dead carcass of Kalak! How is it that you dont remember that it is your familiar pet who created this prestige class?
Yeah, I created a couple of PrCs, they are on my web site. Although, they arent up to date. I am working on a project that will change the face of athas!
Ok, maybe not that incredible, but it's going to be interesting, I hope! :D
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