MC 1
Animal (bat, cat, cheetah, eagle, hawk, leopard, lizard, monitor lizard, owl, rat, snake, tiger)
Animated Object
Ankheg
Aranea
Arrowhawk
Assassin Vine
Azer
Basilisk
Beetle
Behir
Belker
Bulette
Dire Bat
Dire Lion
Dire Rat
Dire Tiger
Dragonne
Elemental
Ettercap
Ettin
Genie
Golem
Invisible Stalker
Krenshar
Magmin
Mephit (all except ice)
Pseudodragon
Rast
Remorhaz (Hmmmm. A desert variant? Or not.)
Skeleton
Spider Eater
Thoqqua
Tojanida
Vermin
Wyvern
Yuan-Ti
Zombie
MC 2
Braxat (we already have an athasian version)
Breathdrinker
Bronze Serpent
Cloud Ray
Dire Hawk
Dire Snake
Dune Stalker
Elemental Weird
Fire Bat
Forest Sloth
Greenvise
Juggernaut
Megapede
Moonbeast
Nightmare Beast
Psurlon
Rampager
Red Sundew
Shadow Spider
Spirit of the Land
Tempest
Thri-Kreen
Templates (titianic, warbeast)
In other words, the lists above would represent those creatures that could be found on Athas due toits own ecology or natural connections with the elemental planes. This doesn't mean that other creatures can't be found on Athas, only that there needs to be some overriding reason as to why they got there (like the githyanki, or dregoth's fiends/baatezu/devils etc). Make sense at all?
(Heh - you are editing while I am posting...:D )
I know Nyt and I sat down and compiled a list of templates and such one night...
Brings forth the Eggroll of Nytcrawlr summoning
Woww, nothing is better than an owl's thrilling voice in the Athasian night...
Aren't these animals already died out (if ever existed on Athas)? Bat, lizards, rat and snake is OK, but the rest... I suppose tagsters and tigones are the descendants of feline predators (cheetah, tiger, etc.), so we can leave these out.
Aren't these animals already died out (if ever existed on Athas)? Bat, lizards, rat and snake is OK, but the rest... I suppose tagsters and tigones are the descendants of feline predators (cheetah, tiger, etc.), so we can leave these out.
I'd say that these creatures still exist, but are exotic rather than common. While a tigone or kirre might be a known species, most athasians might never have heard of a tiger, let alone seen one. Only the menageries of the s-k's or the depths of the oldest forests might yet hold them.
The list in Dragon #173 (which I have treated as a solid precedent) kept the great cats from the old MC1 and I followed this approach in compiling the 3e list. But in the cases you mention, you wouldn't lose anything by dropping the Earth-type great cats because (as you point out) there are ready athasian replacements available.
Will there be other critters from Monsters of Faerun or the FF. I know the FF is mostly Planar schtuff.
I want to compile similar lists from those sources when I get a bit more time. I'm squeezing this in between other stuff at the moment... ;)
MC2:
1--- The Athasian Orcwort--page 165--; The athasian orcwort has the same stat as MC2 with the following changes
1.1---Each Wortling has a wild talent (no 2 wortling of the same crop has the same wild talent)
1.2--- They may have the appearence of an other race from the green age(other then orc: TrollWort :D )
1.3---The orcwort stays the same OR Psionicly, the Orcwort is to is Wortling what Dragon-kings are to their Templars(priestly magic)
1.4---Terrain=Rajaat's cursed Swamp.(misty border)
2---Abeil: Although never encountered any where near nor inside the Tyr region, maybe they could be situated on the other side of the Crimson Savanha
3---Doppleganger Ethereal; the ethereal plane being more accessible than the astral plane could be a "rare encounter" (traveling on Athas through is own will.)
4--Neogi(psionic version)Deep in Kreen territory. (their main enemy??)
5---Kolloss; unique Tauric four legged half-roc/beast-headed giant
................... :OMG! fleeeeeeeeeMC1
I dont remember which adventure it was but there there were treants in it.
If I may add... from the Miniature Handbook:
1--Crucian(p.59)
2--Kruthic(p.63)--- Crimson Savanha(Kreen Slaver!!!)
3--Phargion(p.66)--- Crimson Savanha(kreen Slave!!!)
Well, that's it :D
I dont remember which adventure it was but there there were treants in it.
There is an athasian treant in the monster document, iirc.
Originally posted by Kamelion
I'd say that these creatures still exist, but are exotic rather than common. While a tigone or kirre might be a known species, most athasians might never have heard of a tiger, let alone seen one.
I tend to agree with Kamelion. Why must these common creatures, the staple of any fantasy world be extinct? The sorcerer-kings exterminated many races, but they would have no reason to begin killing the animals of the world. As such, I would say that any animal or beast normal to desert terrain would be present on Athas, though, as with the case of the tiger/tigonne, the more advanced/mutated strain might be more common. With such in mind, I would also include lions/manticores, and other similarly based creatures such as these to heighten the mood of survival through change on Athas.
but they would have no reason to begin killing the animals of the world.
The common species extinction wouldn't be due to the rampaging hordes of humans led by the SKs for thousands of years in genocidal frenzy . . . nope, nothing else would get caught up in a long term war such as that.
Rules of engangement: Demoralization
Hit the enemy where it hurts most, by stripping them of their pride. Warrior cultures who hunt certain beasts to gain prestige are not much of a challenge if that prestige driven aspect of their culture is stripped away.
Rules of engagement: Devestation
Its often not enough to kill your enemy. If you want total success, you must ensure that your enemy can never rise again in that particular region by destroying the regions ability to sustain a sizable culture. This would mean the burning of fields, killing off livestock and other native food sources, etc.
Its rather easy to look at several tactics that must have been used by the SKs in their Clensing Wars. They didn't just wander about looking for their chosen enemy to kill. They sustained sizable armies that knew they would not live to see they end of the war. That can be a real downer on moral. In order to keep moral up and legions fighting, the SKs probably had to keep doing 'something' to thwart the chosen enemy.
Also, lets not forget that these common animals are exactly as they are in the real life, fragile members of a fragile ecosystem. Alterations to the ecosystem cause things to fall apart rather quickly. These creatures could have easily been hunted to extinction for food, killed off due to a dying ecosystem, adapted and changed with the environment (and hence the Athasian analogs for such common creatures), etc.
Granted, its most fun in the game context if some of these 'rumored to be extinct' species actually managed to survive and provide a bit of awe inspring storytelling as the PCs come across the last lion pack on Athas, and the usual adventure of protect the last pack of lions that is sure to follow.
Granted, its most fun in the game context if some of these 'rumored to be extinct' species actually managed to survive and provide a bit of awe inspring storytelling as the PCs come across the last lion pack on Athas, and the usual adventure of protect the last pack of lions that is sure to follow.
Heh - reminds me of a Shadowrun/Cyberpunk adventure (can't remember which) where the PCs have to grab some valuable genetic material for their sponsor. Turns out that the valuable genetic material is a horse, the last one alive. You could spin something similar by sending DS characters after a Green-Age relic that turns out to be a small species of cat or something...
This is true Darwinism. How could a normal lion or tiger compete with a Kirre or a Tagster who have psionic abilities as well? It slowly dies out. Or mutates itself into Kirre or Tagster/Tigone. There are several examples of this in DS MM2. Klar is a mutated bear. There is also the four armed ape, obviously a mutation from normal ape. But if we have these mutation we don't have the original ones, as they already vanished and transformed into this new version. And it's also fine not to have a specific animal or monster on Athas -possibly they were not able to adapt, or their mutation/adaption was not strong enough. So they simply died out without heir.
For me Athas' uniqueness comes from that it is different form other worlds. The magic works differently. The clerics has no gods. Even the player races are changed a lot from the basic Greyhawk. I would like to keep this for monsters as well. Of course some monsters can be used from the basic MM portfolio, the ones who are fitting in the desert, and has no magical abilities. Like ankheg, wyvern, and maybe the manticore. But there are only a few of it, the rest is Athasian specific monster. I'm strongly against it to get this setup 'watered up'.
Bluntly speaking: if we include the basic versions of monsters and animals form MM too much, we could include the basic elves to the Athasian elves as well. Or dwarves, or halflings, whatever. This is a nonsense. We don't use the normal player races, we use the Athasian versions. And for the exactly same reason we shouldn't use the normal monsters, but the Athasion ones. Because of the 'survival of the fittest' principle.
Originally posted by Sean Dickson
I know Nyt and I sat down and compiled a list of templates and such one night...
Brings forth the Eggroll of Nytcrawlr summoning
Zzzzzz, sleep, need sleep. Having a life is rough, heh, not use to it.
Anyways, good job Kamelion, looks close to what Sean and I did that one night, so it looks like you nabbed pretty much everything.
Keep up the good work.
Bluntly speaking: if we include the basic versions of monsters and animals form MM too much, we could include the basic elves to the Athasian elves as well. Or dwarves, or halflings, whatever. This is a nonsense. We don't use the normal player races, we use the Athasian versions. And for the exactly same reason we shouldn't use the normal monsters, but the Athasion ones. Because of the 'survival of the fittest' principle.
The "normal" creatures on the list were all officially part of earlier editions of DS and I am following that precedent with this list. Although the modern Athasian ecosystem is heavily depleted or altered, there is nothing that states that 100% of all Green Age species have died out or mutated, while there is precedent in the setting info that tells us that some of these creatures did indeed survive.
These creatures, therefore, are those few species from the Green Age that yet endure. Including them does not force us to include other Green Age creatures. As a real-world example, the survival of the prehistoric coelocanth (sp?) does not necessarily support arguments for the survival of the t-rex.
The question ultimately becomes one of flavour. If you want to ditch all Green Age beaties in favour of modern athasian versions, then go ahead - it won't impact on the game in any lasting way. If you keep them, you need some ideas as to why they are less commonplace now - the thread above contains a few nuggets of this kind.
In addition to that, if you start ditching animals, it impacts upon classes like druids who rely upon a decent spread of animals as part of their class functions. You could (I suppose) replace them with "athasian tigers" or "athasian bats" but I think that this is going too far over a small issue ;)
(Hey there Nyt - good to see that the old material components still work! And thanks...
)Yeah, the druids would be changed on that, but we just have a thread here where I try to promote that druids can get all vermins as animal companions as well. (Shameless self-advertising here.) ;)
But the old DS compendiums listed specific Athasian animals to replace the loss of the normal fauna. Kip, Oc'kn, Hurrum, Critic, etc. They can be (and have to be) used.
But the old DS compendiums listed specific Athasian animals to replace the loss of the normal fauna. Kip, Oc'kn, Hurrum, Critic, etc. They can be (and have to be) used.
Well, at least as far as these little guys go, they are all in the Terrors of Athas document (as well as mulworms, carru, sygra, aprigs and all those other hugely flavourful and mostly useless weenies from the old rules :D )
Originally posted by Kamelion
Well, at least as far as these little guys go, they are all in the Terrors of Athas document (as well as mulworms, carru, sygra, aprigs and all those other hugely flavourful and mostly useless weenies from the old rules :D )
Cats, dogs, badgers, owls and such creatures are mostly useless weenies as well.
So why have them, when we have flavourful useless weenies already? >crawls back under mekillot and waits for head to stop spinning<
Don't forget that 2e DS had several precedent which were not transfered, like random weapon breaking, etc. There were also some errors, which can be clarified now. (e.g. illusionist halflings in first ed. DS, removed form second ed. DS).
But I got your point.
/crawls out from under the mekillot, and brings a cup of cool water to nurse Kamelion back to life
And anyway thanks for your complement, I'm a very stubborn bastard on certain things I hold important.
But I have quite enjoyed our little argument here and on the druid animal companion thread. 
And anyway thanks for your complement, I'm a very stubborn bastard on certain things I hold important. But I have quite enjoyed our little argument here and on the druid animal companion thread.
Heh, me too. And thanks for the water! Always good to thrash the issue out. Nice hat, by the way
Hill Giant, your approach is a neat and flavourful solution - it keeps the athasian feel but lets you continue to use the creatures as statted. Nice one.
2) *commands a slave to fetch a shovel and scrape Kamelion and Nagypapi off the ground beneath where the Mekillot used to stand*
3) *casts resurrection on the pair*
By now, you two should have learnt that mekillots drop flat on anything that moves under them. That will be 20.000 ceramic pieces for the material components. The spellcasting is on me.
By now, you two should have learnt that mekillots drop flat on anything that moves under them. That will be 20.000 ceramic pieces for the material components. The spellcasting is on me.
Yes, yes, yes, we know. But the shade was so nice under there and mekillots make great lightning bolt-shields. Now look at me! I'm peeling!!
Question! If a mekilot were to lie down wouldn't it crush itself under it's own weight ???
Nah - they have these little rubber shock absorbers all along their underbelly. Who'd have thought it?
Originally posted by Kamelion
Nah - they have these little rubber shock absorbers all along their underbelly. Who'd have thought it?
Hum... dont you think these shock absorbers could be some fat slaves? :D
(fat slaves???!!!)
Hum... dont you think these shock absorbers could be some fat slaves?
You mean flat slaves, don't you? :D
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
1) *prods the Mekillot with psionic jolting pole to get it to move.*
2) *commands a slave to fetch a shovel and scrape Kamelion and Nagypapi off the ground beneath where the Mekillot used to stand*
3) *casts resurrection on the pair*
By now, you two should have learnt that mekillots drop flat on anything that moves under them. That will be 20.000 ceramic pieces for the material components. The spellcasting is on me.
Hey Jon, dont' forget that I already sent to you the cost compensation! I can't be held responsible for you not getting it! ;)
Originally posted by Hill Giant
I use the normal animal stats, but change the nomencalture. So, my party gets attacked by a feline creature witht the stats of a tiger (slightlyaltered skills/feats), but black with large grey spots and referd to as a rock cat. The players are challenged, the thematics are maintained.
Touche, that's a good solution! And we also can spice up some of them (pack leaders) with the psionic template, or the elemental template to keep things more interesting.
Hmm, a nice idea: a volcanic area with heat springs, where a pack of Fire Cats live. From game mechanic wise they are tigers with the elemental (fire) template, and with altered look (reddish fur, needs heat to feel comfortable, etc.). They can be as dangerous as a flock of Tembo...