Dragons, Avangions and time travel - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Dragons, Avangions and time travel

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Nov 29, 2003 19:41:10 Ok before I go into this I should put out a few disclaimers. First I have searched the board and spent time reading articles on how to create advanced beings so this is not just restating my earlier questions. What I'm wanting is to bounce around some concepts that stem from other threads. The mechanics of advance being creation I'm willing to wait on from the good ol athas.org team but I have a few ideas to put forth.

First off just a quick question...why is there mention of dragons and avangions but no mention of elementals in the threads? Guess no one likes clerics or something.

Ok here we go. I'll try to deal with this in a logical progression.

First off is the idea that a specific class is "required" for advanced metamorphosis totally contrary to 3e as some state it is (refering here to the theurge). I mean if you want to cast spells...you need a casting class. If you want combat skills you need a warrior class. If you want to be an advanced being you would need a theurge class. In the old dragon kings book there was a progression beyond 20th level for just about (if not all) the classes. A fighter with an army at his back could probably do a good deal of damage and seems how the mechanics arent quite worked out you could have other methods of transformation of some sort available (a fighter-psion or some sort of theurge equivalent could say transform into a giant with skin of stone or something...his psionic abilities of pyschometabolism could be augmented by his great physical power). While I realize there isnt a lot of precendence history-wise for advance beings other than dragons and avangions I'm sure some of it could be linked (the obsidian man mentioned in the book of artifacts for example). I just mean to say that there could be options available for every character so as to remove the whole restrictive feel of needing a specific class to advance.

Initially when I wanted to incorporate an advance being into my campaign I was stuck in terms of how it was possible mechanically. But what I failed to notice was the frequent warnings in the appropriate books about allowing pc's to control their characters through these stages. And it occured to me that game wise the aquisition of power is worth more than the execution of that power. Transforming into a dragon or an avangion initially is all about unlocking secrets and exploring the history of athas. Further progression begins epic level quests where SK's start to take an interest and the very land is altered by decisions. Personally I wouldnt trust a lot of players with that kind of power. With dragons its not an option to control the character through the animalistic stages but with an avangion its possible. All the same Instead of letting a player go through the process directly how about this option. Take control of the AB and let the player use another character from his tree. The focus of the campaign for that character is then to help his alter ego, as such, complete the process of transformation. That way you havent completely removed your player from the process...in fact you've given him a way to tackle the process from two angles. This is of course assuming the rest of the group is going to help out in the endeavour.

This leads me to the last and perhaps most interesting issue I was reading about. The issue of time travel and paradoxes had been mentioned in previous threads regarding Oronis and the great Thri-kreen leader. (for those wanting info on this and unsure of where to look as I was take a look at the adventure at the end of thri-kreen of athas, the entry on raigs in Totdl and the advance beings section of defilers and preservers). As fun as Athas is in its modern state...wouldnt it be kinda fun to be a part of the cleansing wars (aggressor or defender) or to see the world before it became barren. Well heres how! In the final process of avangion metamorphosis the avangion dissapears for many months to "planes unknown". During Dragon metamorphosis a dragon travels to other planes for levels 27-29. Well as complicated as orchestrating some sort of time loop (open or closed depending on your view) as done in great movies like 12 monkeys, donnie darko and that halloween episode from the simpsons would be; why not do just that. Heres a rough outline of how it might look from the avangions point of view. During the final stage of metamorphosis the avangion heads to a distant point in the past of Athas (this would cover the planes unknown bit). As a slight stretch to the specific requirements of that spell the avangions close friends/followers travel with (your group of pc's). Pick a point of history....pick an event that is required to happen in order for history to occur as it did or one that needs to be changed in order for history to unfold properly. Now give the stipulation that no one can know the AB and followers are from the future (so as not alter history). If the groups succeeds in their task (eg secretly augmenting Rkard of Kemalok so he seriously wounds Borys enough to stop the assault and save the last of the dwarves) then the AB completes his metamorphosis. If not then the forces of paradox rip apart the AB and casts his followers back to their intial time point, history unaltered but nothing left of the Avangion.

So just some thoughts. A part of me believes a balance could not be created using 3e rules in creating an adanced being yet the world demands their presence. So it seems logical to keep the AB out of direct encounters removing the need to figure out its CR and such and make it more a power source for campaign evolution. Anways lemme know what you think.
#2
zombiegleemax
Nov 29, 2003 20:10:50
First off just a quick question...why is there mention of dragons and avangions but no mention of elementals in the threads? Guess no one likes clerics or something

I guess its rather one of those: fill in the appropriate advanced being type in the blanks provided. If you focus on them all at once, your likey to encounter far more issues. Also, at the time that most of the dragon/avangion discussions were taking place, there was no clear cut way of handling defiling and preserver magic and no clear cut class for either. Step one before step two I guess.

BTW, I really like the idea of advanced fighters and such, even if it goes fully against the idea of requiring advanced psioncis and magic to become an advanced being.

Pick a point of history....pick an event that is required to happen in order for history to occur as it did or one that needs to be changed in order for history to unfold properly.

Depending on the type of DM you are, you could even pick a historical event where the event 'seems' to have disasterous effects (Rajaat unlocking the secrets of magic; the creation of the Champions, etc) and require the avangion-to-be aid these events. While innitially this may seem like the good guy is helping the bad guys, perhaps to not help things out would be far more disasterous (With no Champions, Rajaat himself leads the Clensing Wars and with no one to eventually stop him, succeeds in wiping all life from Athas, even the halflings invariably). Keep the morality in question for the avangion since most players are focused only on the immidiate, but to be an wise avangion requires thinking in far longer terms of time than that.

Anyhow, I'm still not sold on the required class or prestige class and would much rather see a system developed where the mage or cleric in question is already into the epic levels long before he is able to begin the metamorphosis.
#3
avatardso
Nov 29, 2003 20:53:54 I have a book in the dark sun setting that actually goes into detail about cleric advanced beings. I think those would be excellent to play with. They also start their change into advanced being before level 20. I believe its actually level 15. I believe it wsa the Wizards of Athas boo but I am looking through my boxes to be sure "Just moved".

Avatar
#4
kilamar
Nov 30, 2003 4:14:59 Why do you need time travel to play during the cleansing wars?
Just start your campaign there. That way you can avoid a time travel paradox.

Kilamar
#5
zombiegleemax
Nov 30, 2003 7:42:58
Why do you need time travel to play during the cleansing wars?

Heh, that wasn't the actual intention. The intention was to fullfill the requirements for the avangion metamorphosis spell in the advanced stages where the avangion is required to travel time and space. The Clensing War events were stated simply as examples. An advancing avangion who started in the Clensing War era may have to travel back to the Blue Age or forward to the Age of Heroes.
#6
zombiegleemax
Dec 01, 2003 6:37:28 Transforming into a dragon or an avangion initially is all about unlocking secrets and exploring the history of athas. Further progression begins epic level quests where SK's start to take an interest and the very land is altered by decisions. Personally I wouldnt trust a lot of players with that kind of power.

That is a very interesting point. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And it's quite interesting to see how the players use that power. If you are interested in the psychological profile of your players, that's it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Nov 29, 2003 19:41:10	Ok before I go into this I should put out a few disclaimers. First I have searched the board and spent time reading articles on how to create advanced beings so this is not just restating my earlier questions. What I'm wanting is to bounce around some concepts that stem from other threads. The mechanics of advance being creation I'm willing to wait on from the good ol athas.org team but I have a few ideas to put forth. First off just a quick question...why is there mention of dragons and avangions but no mention of elementals in the threads? Guess no one likes clerics or something. Ok here we go. I'll try to deal with this in a logical progression. First off is the idea that a specific class is "required" for advanced metamorphosis totally contrary to 3e as some state it is (refering here to the theurge). I mean if you want to cast spells...you need a casting class. If you want combat skills you need a warrior class. If you want to be an advanced being you would need a theurge class. In the old dragon kings book there was a progression beyond 20th level for just about (if not all) the classes. A fighter with an army at his back could probably do a good deal of damage and seems how the mechanics arent quite worked out you could have other methods of transformation of some sort available (a fighter-psion or some sort of theurge equivalent could say transform into a giant with skin of stone or something...his psionic abilities of pyschometabolism could be augmented by his great physical power). While I realize there isnt a lot of precendence history-wise for advance beings other than dragons and avangions I'm sure some of it could be linked (the obsidian man mentioned in the book of artifacts for example). I just mean to say that there could be options available for every character so as to remove the whole restrictive feel of needing a specific class to advance. Initially when I wanted to incorporate an advance being into my campaign I was stuck in terms of how it was possible mechanically. But what I failed to notice was the frequent warnings in the appropriate books about allowing pc's to control their characters through these stages. And it occured to me that game wise the aquisition of power is worth more than the execution of that power. Transforming into a dragon or an avangion initially is all about unlocking secrets and exploring the history of athas. Further progression begins epic level quests where SK's start to take an interest and the very land is altered by decisions. Personally I wouldnt trust a lot of players with that kind of power. With dragons its not an option to control the character through the animalistic stages but with an avangion its possible. All the same Instead of letting a player go through the process directly how about this option. Take control of the AB and let the player use another character from his tree. The focus of the campaign for that character is then to help his alter ego, as such, complete the process of transformation. That way you havent completely removed your player from the process...in fact you've given him a way to tackle the process from two angles. This is of course assuming the rest of the group is going to help out in the endeavour. This leads me to the last and perhaps most interesting issue I was reading about. The issue of time travel and paradoxes had been mentioned in previous threads regarding Oronis and the great Thri-kreen leader. (for those wanting info on this and unsure of where to look as I was take a look at the adventure at the end of thri-kreen of athas, the entry on raigs in Totdl and the advance beings section of defilers and preservers). As fun as Athas is in its modern state...wouldnt it be kinda fun to be a part of the cleansing wars (aggressor or defender) or to see the world before it became barren. Well heres how! In the final process of avangion metamorphosis the avangion dissapears for many months to "planes unknown". During Dragon metamorphosis a dragon travels to other planes for levels 27-29. Well as complicated as orchestrating some sort of time loop (open or closed depending on your view) as done in great movies like 12 monkeys, donnie darko and that halloween episode from the simpsons would be; why not do just that. Heres a rough outline of how it might look from the avangions point of view. During the final stage of metamorphosis the avangion heads to a distant point in the past of Athas (this would cover the planes unknown bit). As a slight stretch to the specific requirements of that spell the avangions close friends/followers travel with (your group of pc's). Pick a point of history....pick an event that is required to happen in order for history to occur as it did or one that needs to be changed in order for history to unfold properly. Now give the stipulation that no one can know the AB and followers are from the future (so as not alter history). If the groups succeeds in their task (eg secretly augmenting Rkard of Kemalok so he seriously wounds Borys enough to stop the assault and save the last of the dwarves) then the AB completes his metamorphosis. If not then the forces of paradox rip apart the AB and casts his followers back to their intial time point, history unaltered but nothing left of the Avangion. So just some thoughts. A part of me believes a balance could not be created using 3e rules in creating an adanced being yet the world demands their presence. So it seems logical to keep the AB out of direct encounters removing the need to figure out its CR and such and make it more a power source for campaign evolution. Anways lemme know what you think.
#2 zombiegleemax Nov 29, 2003 20:10:50	First off just a quick question...why is there mention of dragons and avangions but no mention of elementals in the threads? Guess no one likes clerics or something I guess its rather one of those: fill in the appropriate advanced being type in the blanks provided. If you focus on them all at once, your likey to encounter far more issues. Also, at the time that most of the dragon/avangion discussions were taking place, there was no clear cut way of handling defiling and preserver magic and no clear cut class for either. Step one before step two I guess. BTW, I really like the idea of advanced fighters and such, even if it goes fully against the idea of requiring advanced psioncis and magic to become an advanced being. Pick a point of history....pick an event that is required to happen in order for history to occur as it did or one that needs to be changed in order for history to unfold properly. Depending on the type of DM you are, you could even pick a historical event where the event 'seems' to have disasterous effects (Rajaat unlocking the secrets of magic; the creation of the Champions, etc) and require the avangion-to-be aid these events. While innitially this may seem like the good guy is helping the bad guys, perhaps to not help things out would be far more disasterous (With no Champions, Rajaat himself leads the Clensing Wars and with no one to eventually stop him, succeeds in wiping all life from Athas, even the halflings invariably). Keep the morality in question for the avangion since most players are focused only on the immidiate, but to be an wise avangion requires thinking in far longer terms of time than that. Anyhow, I'm still not sold on the required class or prestige class and would much rather see a system developed where the mage or cleric in question is already into the epic levels long before he is able to begin the metamorphosis.
#3 avatardso Nov 29, 2003 20:53:54	I have a book in the dark sun setting that actually goes into detail about cleric advanced beings. I think those would be excellent to play with. They also start their change into advanced being before level 20. I believe its actually level 15. I believe it wsa the Wizards of Athas boo but I am looking through my boxes to be sure "Just moved". Avatar
#4 kilamar Nov 30, 2003 4:14:59	Why do you need time travel to play during the cleansing wars? Just start your campaign there. That way you can avoid a time travel paradox. Kilamar
#5 zombiegleemax Nov 30, 2003 7:42:58	Why do you need time travel to play during the cleansing wars? Heh, that wasn't the actual intention. The intention was to fullfill the requirements for the avangion metamorphosis spell in the advanced stages where the avangion is required to travel time and space. The Clensing War events were stated simply as examples. An advancing avangion who started in the Clensing War era may have to travel back to the Blue Age or forward to the Age of Heroes.
#6 zombiegleemax Dec 01, 2003 6:37:28	Transforming into a dragon or an avangion initially is all about unlocking secrets and exploring the history of athas. Further progression begins epic level quests where SK's start to take an interest and the very land is altered by decisions. Personally I wouldnt trust a lot of players with that kind of power. That is a very interesting point. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And it's quite interesting to see how the players use that power. If you are interested in the psychological profile of your players, that's it.