Personally, I'd like to see a mega-module (or at the least, an article) on the Sea Of Dust: An outline of which ruins are still accessible and ripe for plundering; what cities, if any, have recently sprung up; what creatures or inhabitants have developed since the rain of fire; and other such goodies yet unaddressed.
How about you? What would you like to see?
The other is the Baklunish west as most of GH is very European and it would be great to add some depth to the middle eastern element of the setting as a counterweight and for the culture clash between the two styles of society.
I'm looking forward to the Irongate articles as my LG region is poor war ravaged Onnwal so would be very relevant.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
So, I'd say the Suss, Welkwood and southern Gnarley Forests. More Suel, huh? How about the legend of the Loast Suel city in the Suss. Years and years ago, we used the Forgotten Realms Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set as our "lost city." And, it would be cool to see just how dark and sinsiter the Suss Forest is. Intrigues regarding the Pomarj are certainly a good add-in too.
I wouldn't mind seeing Hardby developed... oh wait, they're already doing that... hmm... what about some underground dwarven cities? How about Stonehold? Toli? Rinloru?
Dyvers (sounds like a cool place);
Dorakaa (I know its been detailed in Iuz the Old, but I'd like to see an updated 3.5 version);
Kro Terlep (did this city get detailed in the old 2e Scarlet Brotherhood supplement? I don't own it).
It was really lightly passed over in Slavers (2nd Ed module/sourcebook) - an outline map and a few locations - enough to serve as a foundation for something more.
The LG Dyvers triad have done a fantastic detailing of the Slaver's Dyvers map - which I think is on their website.
"Kro Terlep (did this city get detailed in the old 2e Scarlet Brotherhood supplement? I don't own it)."
Yup - there's a brief write up and a sketch map of the city.
Originally posted by KelanenPrinceofSwords
Enstad (I'd like to see an official detailing of a gray elf city);
Dyvers (sounds like a cool place);
I definitely want to throw my support into these places as mentioned by Kelanen. It would be awesome to see an official take on Enstad and more of its NPCs. Same with Dyvers. An official take on Dyvers is a good break for those who are weary of Greyhawk City. Plus, on a selfish tone, Dyvers is closer to the Verbobonc region, our main campaign stomping grounds.
I love the idea of Enstad, and I've officially added it to my "want list." Rel Astra is a virtual certainty after Gary finishes up his Irongate contribution.
Forgotten City and the lost Suel city in the Suss are good suggestions, but they'd perhaps be better settings for an adventure than a city article. I'm toying with the idea, however.
Ungra Balan is an intriguing choice.
--Erik
Any new Greyhawk article is great though, keep 'em coming. From what I've seen so far, it looks like I'll be keeping my subscription to Dungeon magazine for at least as long as Erik is editor.
I was always intrigued by Perrenland and its towns, as the country seems so reclusive and sheltered. I'd give it a gothic touch and a few house-made problems (vampires and golems anyone?).
My third choice would be the Baklunish west with a strong focus on Ket (perhaps including Thornward) where the east mixes with the heritage of the other great empire of ancient times.
Glorfinden
--Erik
Originally posted by OleOneEye
Baklunish cities of Zief and Ekbir.
Baklunish cities would be a nice idea. I'm also partial to the idea of a lost ruin, maybe even one functioning in an modern context.
Originally posted by the grand facade
I'm also partial to the idea of a lost ruin, maybe even one functioning in an modern context.
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I am very intrigued by this. What do you envision when you think of a ruin "functioning in a modern context"?
If you'd rather, feel free to respond on a new thread.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Originally posted by Eric Anondson
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I am very intrigued by this. What do you envision when you think of a ruin "functioning in a modern context"?
What I was trying to say, quite inarticulately in fact, was that a new society, raised up and functioning within the boundaries of a ruined city, might be interesting. Next time I'll be more careful with my phrasing, lest the semantics brigade come for me...
THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE
THEY ARE WAITING
:hoppingma
Originally posted by the grand facade
What I was trying to say, quite inarticulately in fact, was that a new society, raised up and functioning within the boundaries of a ruined city, might be interesting. Next time I'll be more careful with my phrasing, lest the semantics brigade come for me...
Hmmm, I have visions of Pavis and Big Rubble floating through my mind (from RuneQuest in days of yore...).
I'll second anything to do with the Rift Canyon, and Enstad sounds interesting too: I've love to see how GH olves would differ from their FR counterparts in Myth Drannor and elsewhere!
Originally posted by the grand facade
Next time I'll be more careful with my phrasing, lest the semantics brigade come for me...
No need to be snide. I'm quite positive Eric was doing exactly what he claimed to be doing by posting that, and that was simply exhibiting curiosity, with no veiled meaning.
Enstad would be interesting to write considering there is virtually nil (that I know of) canon on them... hmm... my next project! I also have ideas for the Sea of Dust... hands off all you Greyhawk writers! They're MINE, MINE, ALL MINE! :D
Not that Erik will ever publish me... I need psuedonym
Originally posted by Erik Mona
I've currently got promising submissions on Hardby
Bah, boring, been done. Unless yall managed to dig up SamanthaQ and get her to write it, it's really pointless to bother doing it again, IMO.
DarkGate
OH ... MY ... GOD ...
:sad:
Damn, DarkGate was the single worst piece of crap Roger added to the setting, does anyone actually use it???
How about Flen, Istivin, Gorna, Westkeep, Niole Dra, etc etc etc
Cities that people actually use that haven't been done already?
Or, heh, how about finishing Greyhawk City? Yeah, it's been done, but leaving its LGJ incarnation half finished is kind of lame.
Originally posted by Greyhack
How about Flen, Istivin, Gorna, Westkeep, Niole Dra, etc etc etc
Cities that people actually use that haven't been done already?
Or, heh, how about finishing Greyhawk City? Yeah, it's been done, but leaving its LGJ incarnation half finished is kind of lame. [/b]
.......... so how about writing one? I guess they can only print what people submit after all
Originally posted by StevieS
.......... so how about writing one? I guess they can only print what people submit after all
I have queried, informally, Erik on doing Istivin many times, I was told that it is reserved for some future project, maybe, possibly...
Originally posted by StevieS
.......... so how about writing one? I guess they can only print what people submit after all
No, GreyHack isn't one of Erik's mates...
BTW Istivin was the setting for a couple of LG scenarios (Birthday bash & Beneath the veil) if anyone is interested, they were pretty good IMHO.
>>>
Bah, boring, been done. Unless yall managed to dig up SamanthaQ and get her to write it, it's really pointless to bother doing it again, IMO.
>>>
Because the submission I got is really cool, and the number of people who read my magazine is larger than the number of people who read the old AOL Greyhawk folder by several orders of magnitude. Most people don't know much of anything about Hardby. Since I got a cool submission on the topic, I think that's about to change.
I'm not particularly picky about which cities I'll print. I can't poach Triaded cities in the magazine (unless the Triad is involved), but other than that I'm interested in just about any city. I've been trying to get people to write cities for me since I started this job. All of a sudden, a bunch of people have decided to humor me at once. Bless them one and all.
>>>
Damn, DarkGate was the single worst piece of crap Roger added to the setting, does anyone actually use it???
>>>
I sincerely doubt many people use it, because only about three sentences have ever been written about it in anything official. I think Greyhawk editors and designers have taken a "hands off" approach to the Sea of Dust for more than 20 years (barring Gary's "Sea of Death" book, which I really liked). I think that's too bad, because the Sea of Dust is really cool. The logical way into the Sea of Dust is through the Passage of Slerotin, which currently is capped with the city of Dark Gate. It's got huge potential as an adventure locale, so long as it's handled well.
Obviously, it'll be my intent (and the intent of the author) to provide that service. Whether or not we succeed will be up to you guys.
>>>
How about Flen, Istivin, Gorna, Westkeep, Niole Dra, etc etc etc
>>>
Flen does almost nothing for me. I'd guess most casual fans of the setting couldn't even tell you what country it's in. Istivin I'm selfishly holding for myself. Sorry. Gorna and Niole Dra are from Triad regions, so anything that happens with those will have to come from the Triads involved, or have their stamp of approval.
Coincedentally, I think once we've done a couple of these and "set the format," so to speak, a lot of Triad people will rush to get their capitals done up in style. At least I hope that's the case.
Westkeep is cool. I'd like to do something with the entire Hold of the Sea Princes some day.
>>>
Cities that people actually use that haven't been done already?
>>>
Like Kalstrand and Zelradton? We're just starting. We'll get around to "cities people use," but part of the idea is to shine a new light on places people _don't_ use, because almost nothing is known about them.
Out of curiosity, which non-Triad cities do people use that haven't been done before? I like the Enstad suggestion, and the cities of the Pomarj and Wild Coast are likewise helpful. Which others?
>>>
Or, heh, how about finishing Greyhawk City? Yeah, it's been done, but leaving its LGJ incarnation half finished is kind of lame.
>>>
I'd love to figure out a way to finish that, but I'm not sure people want me filling the pages of my own magazine with my own writing, and Denis Tetreault has been really busy with a new job, lately. I've got a few ideas about how to get it done, though.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon Magazine
Originally posted by the grand facade
What I was trying to say, quite inarticulately in fact, was that a new society, raised up and functioning within the boundaries of a ruined city, might be interesting.
Ah, I see. I think the best example of this in real Earth history would be Rome during the European Dark Ages. I got a brief glimpse at what happened in a Landscape Architecture class of a map of the Rome of that period. The city walls of the old Rome were so far out that there was space enough for a great deal of farming.
Of the best contemporary Greyhawk examples of once-significant-sized cities now only populated by a shadow of the previous amount... Probably Rauxes... Admundfort... Molag... Most every city in Medegia... I think Istivin was portrayed as such in the Living Greyhawk events that have taken place there.
Don't know if Spinecastle would fit this theme. Hmm.
Eric Anondson
Dyvers and Hardby are second and third choices, respectively. The mention of Narwell and Safeton also sounds exciting. But, are Wild Coast cities too fluid for a treatment?
If none of the above galvanize any support, there's an obscure village thirty miles southeast of Verbobonc... LOL
Originally posted by Erik Mona
Forgotten City and the lost Suel city in the Suss are good suggestions, but they'd perhaps be better settings for an adventure than a city article. I'm toying with the idea, however.
Then let's have an adventure! I know that it's too much to hope for a published module on this, but how about putting it in an issue of Dungeon? I'd love to see more about this lost Suel city in the Suss.
Originally posted by StevieS
BTW Istivin was the setting for a couple of LG scenarios (Birthday bash & Beneath the veil) if anyone is interested, they were pretty good IMHO.
Well, I'll have to take your word for it, unless the LG scenarios are made available outside of LG.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
I'm not particularly picky about which cities I'll print. I can't poach Triaded cities in the magazine (unless the Triad is involved), but other than that I'm interested in just about any city. . . . Gorna and Niole Dra are from Triad regions, so anything that happens with those will have to come from the Triads involved, or have their stamp of approval.
[rant]
I really dislike the fact that, rather than advancing the setting, Living Greyhawk seems to be holding it back. No new products, lest they contradict LG. No city articles for "Triaded cities" without Triad approval. And don't tell me how much material has been produced for LG. Unless you can get back issues, the LGJ is a limited resource. Some regions have pretty decent websites, but that's not universal, and even the good ones are limited. And all of these scenarios? Are they available outside LG? (To the best of my knowledge, no, they're not.)
[/rant]
I have submitted several articles in the past, alais none were accepted. Is there anyone out there that would be interested in swapping some home made material?
This is a way to intriduce new ideas into a campaign, mine and yours.
It does a decent amount of touching on Dyvers, Hardby, a few Wild Coast cities (and ruins), as well as a few cities in the Pomarj, history and maps included.
For cramming all that into 1 supplement I'd say it was well done too.
-----------------------------------------
Otherwise, I'd personaly like to see more about the NorthEast Nomadic tribes and some history about their travels to Fireland and such. There's been so little done with that area (the NorthEast.)
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
[rant]
I really dislike the fact that, rather than advancing the setting, Living Greyhawk seems to be holding it back. No new products, lest they contradict LG. No city articles for "Triaded cities" without Triad approval. And don't tell me how much material has been produced for LG. Unless you can get back issues, the LGJ is a limited resource. Some regions have pretty decent websites, but that's not universal, and even the good ones are limited. And all of these scenarios? Are they available outside LG? (To the best of my knowledge, no, they're not.)
[/rant]
How is LG holding back the setting? If anything it is advancing it by promoting GH to the thousands of LG players and spawning tons of info which maybe will end up published in the LGJ or another WotC product. All those fertile minds writing GH info for LG must be good surely?
Obviously any GH article needs to mesh with the LG accounts but I'm sure most triads would love to see thier region published somewhere.
Originally posted by StevieS
How is LG holding back the setting? If anything it is advancing it by promoting GH to the thousands of LG players and spawning tons of info which maybe will end up published in the LGJ or another WotC product. All those fertile minds writing GH info for LG must be good surely?
Obviously any GH article needs to mesh with the LG accounts but I'm sure most triads would love to see thier region published somewhere.
Well, let's count our blessings where we can find them. Without LG, there would almost certainly be no Living Greyhawk Gazetter, and there would be no regional LG websites, and there would be no Living Greyhawk Journal. Okay, fine.
But when people are saying that there will be no new published materials because they might conflict with the LG campaign, that's what I call holding back the setting. (Where did I see such a thing? Well, most recently, I saw it in the letter-writing campaign thread in the Living Greyhawk forum; go check it out if you haven't seen it already.) Or when Erik Mona says that he can't publish any city articles for Triaded cities, that's bad too.
In my opinion, that constitutes "setting-back."
I have more on this subject, but not enuff time to match.
Originally posted by StevieS
How is LG holding back the setting? If anything it is advancing it by promoting GH to the thousands of LG players and spawning tons of info which maybe will end up published in the LGJ or another WotC product. All those fertile minds writing GH info for LG must be good surely?
Cow manure is fertilizer, do we want to see that published too?
Originally posted by StevieS
Obviously any GH article needs to mesh with the LG accounts but I'm sure most triads would love to see thier region published somewhere.
Writing by committee is a waste of time and creates nothing but a mish-mash of incoherent, trash. Which is what most of the LG material is.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
Or when Erik Mona says that he can't publish any city articles for Triaded cities, that's bad too. [/b]
I think what Erik actually said was that he couldn't publish those articles without consultation with the relevant triad, so that it mashs with the LG thing. Also he seems to be hopeful lots of the triad types will write articles about there regions for the LGJ.
"I think once we've done a couple of these and "set the format," so to speak, a lot of Triad people will rush to get their capitals done up in style. At least I hope that's the case" - Erik Mona
So its not nearly as bleak as you seem to think.
Originally posted by Delglath
Cow manure is fertilizer, do we want to see that published too?
Haha, we can only hope that the editorial staff of the LGJ will ensure that any published material will be of considerably higher quality than 'cow manure' :D
Out of curiosity, which non-Triad cities do people use that haven't been done before? I like the Enstad suggestion, and the cities of the Pomarj and Wild Coast are likewise helpful. Which others?
Perhaps a list of what is Triad controlled and what is not will help move thing's along. Also a list of Triads and members to contact regarding the instuition of more available GH material both in and out of the LG campaign settings should help as well.
I am in full agreement on fleshing out things and or places that have been pretty much left alone. But perhaps a top ten list of places easily produced by your magazine (refering to the least time comsuming as to final approval for print) would be helpful as well.
A link to the site for submisson guidelines is good as well. I know where to get this info but if it's provided in a easy to find format it takes alot of the initial hassle out of the creation process.
By the way I wonder where Delglath is with the module he was writing up? Delglath if your reading this give us an update I'd like to know how far along you currently are in th process.
Well I leave you with these choice words!
"A belch is but a gust of wind which comes but from the heart, But should it take a downward trend it turns into a fart".
Originally posted by Argon
By the way I wonder where Delglath is with the module he was writing up? Delglath if your reading this give us an update I'd like to know how far along you currently are in th process.
I'm writing it as both a 'Mysterious Places' peice and a module. The module will take AGES to complete since modules are just like that.
Regardless, I'm waiting on a reply for my query. I'm not holding my breath though, considering it will be the fourth query and the other three never got an answer...
But then, I'm not buddy-buddy wid da man.
Originally posted by Argon
Perhaps a list of what is Triad controlled and what is not will help move thing's along. Also a list of Triads and members to contact regarding the instuition of more available GH material both in and out of the LG campaign settings should help as well.
Well, there is this glorious location called LivingGreyhawk.com where You could find all Triad controlled regions, plus all Triad websites and infos about how to contact those guys. Not all infos may be up to date, but most of them are... And of course the RPGA-pages of this campaign will have even more infos!
As I'm one of those Triad-Guys myself, I can tell You, that our Triad controls the following region: Principality of Innspa and Marchland of the Adri, both of them are part of the United Kindgom of Ahlissa. Within this region the following Cities and towns are situated: Innspa, Jennden, Ralsand and Elversford. You can find a condensed english version of what we've done with them here ...
'till we meet in the Adri...
Frank Roters
Innspa / Adri Triad
(and yes the main body of our hp is in Old Oeridian... hm I mean German) ;)
Originally posted by Lagrange, Baron de Banville
Well, there is this glorious location called LivingGreyhawk.com where You could find all Triad controlled regions, plus all Triad websites and infos about how to contact those guys. Not all infos may be up to date, but most of them are... And of course the RPGA-pages of this campaign will have even more infos!
As I'm one of those Triad-Guys myself, I can tell You, that our Triad controls the following region: Principality of Innspa and Marchland of the Adri, both of them are part of the United Kindgom of Ahlissa. Within this region the following Cities and towns are situated: Innspa, Jennden, Ralsand and Elversford. You can find a condensed english version of what we've done with them here ...
(
I thank you for your info Lagrange but I can over a brief period of time go to each of these sites and find the info. My post was focusing on Paizo having a list of territories in the Flanaess that are not under Triad control and therefore easy to see print. Now I'm sure their are certain Triad's that are easier to deal with then others and would welcome independent non members to contribute to their community. While their will be others that are not as receptive it's human nature.
So Lagrange would you be willing to gather information that someone should use as a guideline if they wish to contribute something to Dungeon magazine without stepping on the toes of your Triad members? Would you also be receptive to the idea of leaving contact info for either the Dungeon Editor in Cheif or those individuals that would like to do a write up for The Kingdom of Ahlissa?
It would be appreciated by me and I am sure it would be appreciated by other's in the LG community.
With that said I did send an e-mail regarding past scenarios for each LG region. I believe converting some of the old no longer LG suitable scenarios to a module format will accomplish two things. One it would promote GH especially LG. By giving non members a taste of the way some of these scenarios are run. Secondly it would give many people what they want some GH specific information. So what d you think about year 1 scenarios seeing print into a publication whether it be an actually supplement book or a adventure found in Dungeon magazine?
Originally posted by rostoff
That's the most German looking English I've ever linked to.
Sorry, I had a typo in the link to our HP. If You try it again now, it should work. And I hope our English isn't that worse, because the other two persons in our triad should be fairly good with it (at least better than me)...
'till we meet in the Adri
Frank aka Lagrange, Baron de Banville
Originally posted by Argon
I thank you for your info Lagrange but I can over a brief period of time go to each of these sites and find the info. My post was focusing on Paizo having a list of territories in the Flanaess that are not under Triad control and therefore easy to see print. Now I'm sure their are certain Triad's that are easier to deal with then others and would welcome independent non members to contribute to their community. While their will be others that are not as receptive it's human nature.
Sorry, I don't want to sound too harsh, but these are just two sites You've to scan for Contact Infos of the respective Triad (or do You want to contribute to all Triad-controlled regions?)! If this is too time consuming for You, how tough would it be for You to work through all the loads of canon material to avoid continuity problems???
Despite that, I'm not so sure that Eric / Paizo is the only one who has a say what could be done with non-Triad-controlled territorities. Because these regions are controlled by the Circle. I can only make a wild guess, but I believe that both the Circle and Eric decide what is possible and what not...
And I believe no Triad would reject a well researched article on their region, if it fits into their scheme...
So Lagrange would you be willing to gather information that someone should use as a guideline if they wish to contribute something to Dungeon magazine without stepping on the toes of your Triad members? Would you also be receptive to the idea of leaving contact info for either the Dungeon Editor in Cheif or those individuals that would like to do a write up for The Kingdom of Ahlissa?It would be appreciated by me and I am sure it would be appreciated by other's in the LG community.
No, because that is what the staff of Dungeon needs to do (or have done with their submission guidelines). I don't know what their standards are for articles.
If You don't want to step on the toes of a certain triad, than do Your research (published canon and published LG-canon of that region) and ask them before You submit something to Dungeon. Ask them for comments on Your work and try to incorparate their ideas...
So if You want to write something for/about the Innspa/Adri-Region, best get in contact with our [email=gh_adri@web.de]Point of Contact[/email], with a proposal of what You want to contribute (either to Dungeon or to our own website / PDF-Gazetteer). And no Triad can tell You that for the whole of the Kingdom of Ahlissa, because the Kingdom is only partially controlled by Triads (that is us in the north and the swedish Triad for the Principality of Naerie). The rest is part of the Meta-Region controlled by Circle member Creighton Broadhurst. (He is the one constantly writing articles about the Bright Desert and You can find his adress on the RPGA LG Site!)
With that said I did send an e-mail regarding past scenarios for each LG region. I believe converting some of the old no longer LG suitable scenarios to a module format will accomplish two things. One it would promote GH especially LG. By giving non members a taste of the way some of these scenarios are run. Secondly it would give many people what they want some GH specific information. So what d you think about year 1 scenarios seeing print into a publication whether it be an actually supplement book or a adventure found in Dungeon magazine?
As much as I love that idea, I don't believe it will work... The copyrights to all modules of year 1 and 2 (that is CY 591 / 592 or realworld 2000 - 2002) are owned by the RPGA. And they only paid the authors money for the use of the modules in organized play during that time. They have to ask every author again if they want to use it again... As far as I understand it, the copyright of year 3 regional modules and onward are owned by the authors of the modules and they gave that rights to the RPGA for the duration the modules would be played in organized play. After that time the could use that modules themselves (but they lose the rights to use the Greyhawk-specific contents of their work, which is of course still property of Wizards / RPGA). What sounds like a weird copyright nightmare, is excactly that. And this is what prevents the publishing of modules, that are gone. Or at least that's what I think is the reason...
I hope someone finds a solution to this, because there are some rough diamonds out there, that with a little polishing would be great modules for every WoG-Campaign...
'till we meet in the Adri
Frank
Originally posted by Erik Mona
Out of curiosity, which non-Triad cities do people use that haven't been done before? I like the Enstad suggestion, and the cities of the Pomarj and Wild Coast are likewise helpful. Which others?
I'd settle for either the dwellers in the Dramidj or the citizens of the Solnor.
Originally posted by emperor norton
What's the deal with the Land of Black Ice? Has there been any work on that territory? If not, then I think it would be interesting.
My first PbP was "Into the Land of Black Ice" and where the lobi in lobi.com was taken from. Player discord disbanded that campaign but not before I had begun "Beneath the Pinnacles of Azo'alq".
Originally posted by Delglath
I'm writing it as both a 'Mysterious Places' peice and a module. The module will take AGES to complete since modules are just like that.
I know that feeling. As my wife may be having our third child in 3 days, all I'll be working on is sleeping in 2-hour shifts. My undersea mega-adventure is still in note form, but I add to it as time permits.
The capital cities of the Suel Barbarians might be a good idea too. They're fair game since they're non Triad controlled regions.
Good thread...
btw thanks for the frequent posts Erik, gives us an idea of what Greyhawk goodness to expect from the LGJ in the future.
Mike
Considering that the last that was written about them was set in 585 C.Y. and they were left in a situation which had the potential to explode at any minute, an update for the last six years of setting time is kinda overdue.
Plus, Delglath would get a decent update too :D
***I would like to second this point. If you are writing something based on a triads region you really need to make certain they are happy with it before submitting it to Erik.
So if You want to write something for/about the Innspa/Adri-Region, best get in contact with our [email=gh_adri@web.de]Point of Contact[/email], with a proposal of what You want to contribute (either to Dungeon or to our own website / PDF-Gazetteer). And no Triad can tell You that for the whole of the Kingdom of Ahlissa, because the Kingdom is only partially controlled by Triads (that is us in the north and the swedish Triad for the Principality of Naerie). The rest is part of the Meta-Region controlled by Circle member Creighton Broadhurst. (He is the one constantly writing articles about the Bright Desert and You can find his adress on the RPGA LG Site!)
***I have thought myself about writing an Ahlissan article for the LGJ but I think it would be a truely huge article, I mean Ahlissa is arguably the most powerful single nation on the planet! I have submitted a full writeup on Medegia to Erik and that alone came to I think 7000 words! If anyone is writing an Ahlissan article for the LGJ please can they contact me as the meta-region I run has done considerably work there.
Thanks
Really fancy writing that article now...
Originally posted by Creighton
If You don't want to step on the toes of a certain triad, than do Your research (published canon and published LG-canon of that region) and ask them before You submit something to Dungeon. Ask them for comments on Your work and try to incorparate their ideas...
That's bulldren. You might be willing to put up with crap like that, but nobody SHOULD HAVE TO go through such an absolutely BULLFRELLINDREN process.
If it weren't for the fact that I like one of your articles and respect you, I'd say that only a moron would put up with the 'writing by committee' process...
Originally posted by StevieS
If you don't consult with the relevant triad your article is unlikely to be published. Your call I guess but only a 'moron' would make the wrong one.
Any writer worth their salt doesn't let a committee write for them. Especially when that committee is full of drenheads who wouldn't know the first thing about creative writing, let alone Greyhawk.
Although your opinion seems to be very low of LG and especially of their triads abilities, many have very knowledgable triads and great material written about their region so how about laying off the constant abuse of LG? It adds very little to your arguement and is quite tiresome.
Well, the scales fall from my eyes!
There I was going through all my beloved Greyhawk stuff, trying to incorporate every tiny item of canon into my region, trying to create an interesting plot line, trying to write good background material to explain the region and the campaign world I love to people who've never heard it before, trying to write good modules, trying to keep consistant with canon (which struck me as a co-operative effort, but what do I know?) - and all of that was for nothing.
Because I and my colleagues are not worth our salt, know nothing about creative writing or Greyhawk and have excrement for brains.
Well, thank you for pointing out how uselessly I've spent the last three and a half years.
Shall we just take our excrement-headed material off our website, burn the 100+ page Players Guide for our region, and the 26+ page history I've written for the planned LG Splintered Sun Gaz? Should I ask Erik Mona to track down and burn the copies of the LGJ that have our material in, lest it offend any right-thinking Greyhawk fan like yourself? Should I ask him to can the articles I've sent him, because they obviously won't be good enough?
You're entitled to your opinion, my friend - but you're not only wrong in this case - you've belittled in a very offensive manner all those Triads and their staff who have genuinely striven to make their regions of LG the best that they can be. Some regions have done better than others, I'll grant you - but don't tar everyone with the same brush.
I didn't take a triad job so that I could horde away a region of the Flanaess as my own private little fief and forbid all the rest of the fans from using it. I got into this because Greyhawk enthused me and because I wanted to help make my region as good and as faithful that elusive Greyhawk spirit as I possibly could.
That's not a job one person can do. It requires team work and we've been blessed by having some of the best people anyone could possible hope to work with on our design team. Writing in a team is not the same as writing by committee. Writing in a team doesn't automatically invalidate that work. Writing in a team doesn't automatically make you a moron, or any less of a creative writer. To say so shows dispicable arrogance and contempt for your fellow writers and Greyhawk fans.
Judge the writing by the end product - not by the number of people on the credit line.
BTW - The LGG has 4 authors. Are they morons/not worth their salt too? Is that a load of excrement?
Paul Looby
POC Onnwal Triad
Where would we be then? We'd have as many versions of Greyhawk as there are regions. In other words an utter mess that would murder the credibility of the gameworld and likely prove the death of Greyhawk as a living (with a small l), breathing, evolving setting.
Heretical tangents are fine for home campaigns, but for the official depiction of Greyhawk that thousands of players are going to be exposed to? Nope - canon and consistancy have to be the watchwords.
A project of the size and success of LG requires teamwork and cooperation. If that doesn't float your boat, fine - but don't belittle those who are working hard to advance the setting in consistant way. If you can do better, pitch in and make it better - but be ready to work in a team to do that. There's no room for prima donnas.
At the end of the day for any official publication - someone, somewhere has got to decide whether a piece of writing fits with Greyhawk canon. At the moment that's Erik, and he's a stickler for it. But I'd rather see someone who really knows and cares about the minutae of Greyhawk doing that job than someone who doesn't give a monkeys and ends up filling the pages of the LGJ with a lot of inconsistant material that doesn't gel.
Paul
If it weren't for the fact that I like one of your articles and respect you, I'd say that only a moron would put up with the 'writing by committee' process... [/b]
***Well thanks for the compliment! (which one by the way?). Anyway, onto your point. I don't see it as writing by committee but rather writing in a team. I have been lucky to make some good friends while being involved with Greyhawk who have similar views to my own when it comes to development - thus we have had virtually no disagreements regarding things we have written together. In this case I firmly believe that the sum is greater than the component parts. Once I have finished a document I normally believe "its the greatest thing I have ever written." Then I send it to Paul and Stuart and they poke holes in it, laugh at my lack of canon knowledge (and I they) and make suggestions for improvements etc. They also do the same with their work. This process makes the article/module/whatever a better end result. Writing in a team is an incredibly rewarding experience, I would suggest you try it! Tne worst that can happen is that you don't like it...
***Hey even Stevie helps out in Living Onnwal! I believe he has the record for the most players corrupted at a single corruption "go on, you know you want to...just hand her over, it will all be fine..."
Are we likely to see Scant in the LGJ anytime soon?
Originally posted by Creighton
***Hey even Stevie helps out in Living Onnwal! I believe he has the record for the most players corrupted at a single corruption "go on, you know you want to...just hand her over, it will all be fine..." [/b]
Originally posted by StevieS
Although your opinion seems to be very low of LG and especially of their triads abilities, many have very knowledgable triads and great material written about their region so how about laying off the constant abuse of LG?
You're right, there are SOME people in LG who are worth considering, Creighton being one, but one in ten is not a majority and it was to the majority I was making reference.
Originally posted by Woesinger
Shall we just take our excrement-headed material off our website, burn the 100+ page Players Guide for our region, and the 26+ page history I've written for the planned LG Splintered Sun Gaz?
Oh really, would you? Please, could you, that'd be so nice of you...
Originally posted by Woesinger
Should I ask Erik Mona to track down and burn the copies of the LGJ that have our material in, lest it offend any right-thinking Greyhawk fan like yourself? Should I ask him to can the articles I've sent him, because they obviously won't be good enough?
If Erik has accepted it, then it is most likely that the material is of the rare species in LG that actually passes muster. Having said that, there has been some questionable material in the LGJ... was that your stuff?
Originally posted by Woesinger
I didn't take a triad job so that I could horde away a region of the Flanaess as my own private little fief and forbid all the rest of the fans from using it.
Well, that is the end result, whether you intended it or not.
Originally posted by Woesinger
That's not a job one person can do. It requires team work and we've been blessed by having some of the best people anyone could possible hope to work with on our design team. Writing in a team is not the same as writing by committee. Writing in a team doesn't automatically invalidate that work. Writing in a team doesn't automatically make you a moron, or any less of a creative writer. To say so shows dispicable arrogance and contempt for your fellow writers and Greyhawk fans.
Well, you sure missed the point.
You're a damn triad member, of course you're working as a team. I'm not talking about YOU. Stop being so self-centred. I'm talking about ME. If I want to write something for the LGJ that is in a triad region, going through that triad is a MAJOR headache and having a bunch of twits edit my work and tell me how things should be based on their moronic interpretations of canon and their half-witted region plots is NOT how I want to spend my time writing for Greyhawk.
You might be one out of the ten people who in LG who has half a brain and uses it, but that doesn't change the FACT that the other nine people are twits who know scads about nothing, and nothing about Greyhawk. I've dealt with them so I'm not talking off the top of my head here or just mouthing off about something I don't know. I've approached several triads in order to work with them and have received little more than a backwash of idiocy.
And, furthermore, I would argue that the LGJ has virtually nothing to do with LG. The name, as was pointed out, may very well be similar, but that doesn't mean they are of the same ilk. I challenge you to conduct a survey of your region and find out just how many LG players actually buy and read the LGJ for use in LG games. Of the surveys I've conducted, the overwhelming response was that they don't give a rats-fat about the LGJ. It's only a vocal minority online who are LG players who care about the LGJ. For the most part, it's Greyhawk fans who care about it and just because someone plays LG, does not make them a Greyhawk fan.
Originally posted by Woesinger
Where would we be then? We'd have as many versions of Greyhawk as there are regions. In other words an utter mess that would murder the credibility of the gameworld and likely prove the death of Greyhawk as a living (with a small l), breathing, evolving setting.
Err... that'd pretty much explain the current state of LG... Hell, even the meta-regions couldn't organize a stamp licking in a womans prison, let alone co-ordinate the regions activities.
Originally posted by Woesinger
At the end of the day for any official publication - someone, somewhere has got to decide whether a piece of writing fits with Greyhawk canon. At the moment that's Erik, and he's a stickler for it. But I'd rather see someone who really knows and cares about the minutae of Greyhawk doing that job than someone who doesn't give a monkeys and ends up filling the pages of the LGJ with a lot of inconsistant material that doesn't gel.
Oh, I agree.
Only, you're mistaking LG for canon. There may very well be 14,000 LG players, however that is NOT the majority of Greyhawk fans and I'd further argue that the majority of LG players aren't even fans of Greyhawk. I, for one, think it abhorrent to include such tripe as the ethereal invasion series into Greyhawk canon as, I would suspect, most Greyhawk fans.
LG is not Greyhawk and I bloody-well hope it never is. Triads should NOT have a say in what is and isn't Greyhawk, just because they're volunteers in a project. Who decided that a comittee of volunteers gets to dictate to Greyhawk fans, what Greyhawk is and isn't? Cool, I stick my hand up and suddenly I have all this power to dictate canon. Get off your high-damn-horse. You're a volunteer for the RPGA, not a chosen representative of Greyhawk canon.
I would rather see Greyhawk dead than have the triads ruin the setting.
The Triad needs to accept that not every idea is going to be precisely what they originally imagined.
The author needs to accept certain basic assumptions for the work as a whole, above and beyond those already in canon, that reflect the direction the Triad wishes to go.
Both must understand the nature and interaction of creative writing and editing.
It is only when the people in charge are really looking for ghost writers, and the people writing are really looking for official sanction, that the process becomes a trial.
For all those posters who've mentioned wanting to see Thornward, I suggest highly that you check out: http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=129 and http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=130. Wayne Rossi and Jesse Dean "rocked the casbah" on that one. Both were longtime GH posters on Greytalk.
Now with that said, there are some triads that seem to have made things along my line of vision. Their are others which have not met my expectations. But I don't believe that one bad apple ruins the whole bushel. Besides even reigions that I like I have disagreements with.
Veluna is a pretty well done reigion. My disagreement with one of their lines of thinking is evident in their choice of major npc nobles.
It seems that almost every noble incharge of a diocese is half-elven. If their was one it might be ok but take a look their are too many. Nobility wants to keep their lines as pure as possible. Mixing in elvin blood dilutes a noble lines strength of purity.
This is but one small thing which changes easily in my game. I was surprised to see a gnomish controlled diocese. Which tends to be a bit much as well. But I can see this as Veluna way of keeping or gaining control of land. By granting lordship of the diocese to a gnome the gnomes swear fealty to the archclercy and their resources become part of Veluna. Otherwise Veluna needs to take control by force. I like the way Asnath is controled by a church, noble, and elvin representative yet falls under the control of the Kempton diocese.
So as you see I can have disagrements without bashing someone of something. I think LG has kept some life in GH, whether or not I agree with everything that has been done so far with it or not. Just like I don't agree with everything Gygax did with GH, and he created this campaign world. I am more of a Sargent fan but must create Gygax for creating much of what I like about the game. If you've seen any of my past post's you will know that Gygax is not seen as a great writer by me. Yet he is a very creative one.
Just to respond to Lagrange, once again I thank you for your reply. But I asked the question not just for me but everyone here who might wish to contribute something to the setting or a region. I know where to gather the info I would need. I have contacted Tim on something else before.
I also believe that the reason Erik has asked the question on what we would like to see is because he is trying to please the majority of us. It also helps determine his direction on what might see print in dungeon magazine.
I would also agree that whatever has been produced for LG is LG canon and not specific to GH as the original pen & paper setting started by Gygax and well represented by Sargent in the later years. Though some people may feel free to disagree. But is it my imagination or was original GH canon changed by the Geoff region too further their view of how Geoff should be. So my question would be exactly what reference of canon are all triads trying to sustain?
Now I don't want all triad members to get offended by my question. But as you can see I am not attacking someones writting or decision. I am just proving a point that each region is no different them someones home campaign. It changes by the groups vision of there region and only rely's slightly on GH canon.
If their are any members from the Geoff region reading this post. I don't dislike what you did with Geoff. But it is not canon, at least not in any GH published and licensed material ever produced in my life time. But I did enjoy the celtic view taken by the Geoff region. Whether or not I like or agree with everything that was created by the Geoff region is irrelevant. Because we all have different views of our own campaign worlds. I know my campaign does not follow what is GH canon but it does fit my canon.
Originally posted by Woesinger
Shall we just take our excrement-headed material off our website, burn the 100+ page Players Guide for our region, and the 26+ page history I've written for the planned LG Splintered Sun Gaz?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Oh really, would you? Please, could you, that'd be so nice of you..."
Sure - if you'll make a reciprocal bonfire of your stuff. That way we can both feel smug about denying Greyhawk fans of our respective ideas through our mutual intolerance.
"Having said that, there has been some questionable material in the LGJ... was that your stuff?"
Perhaps - maybe I ought to send it by you to get your big rubber stamp on it, if that's alright with you? Oh, but wouldn't that be writing by committee? Darn - this GH stuff sure is tricky.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Woesinger
I didn't take a triad job so that I could horde away a region of the Flanaess as my own private little fief and forbid all the rest of the fans from using it.
"Well, that is the end result, whether you intended it or not."
Excuse me - I don't recall you coming to us and saying - "I've got this great idea about Onnwal, wanna hear it?" Despite the unpleasant attitude you've copped here - I'd still be willing to listen to good ideas. I can't speak for all triads - but you tarred us all with the same brush and I object to that out of some (perhaps misguided) pride in what I do.
"You're a damn triad member, of course you're working as a team. I'm not talking about YOU. Stop being so self-centred. I'm talking about ME."
Delicious irony, sir!
But does the fact I'm working in a team automatically denegrate either my Greyhawk knowledge, my ability as a writer or whether or not the matter between my ears is grey or brown?
Your first post suggested so and I take exception to that - as I believe would a lot of triad folk. It was arrogant and elitist and gave the impression that no one but you, the noble steppenwolf of GH lore, knew could possibly know anything about Greyhawk and indeed creative writing in general.
With this kind of negative attitude prevailing from certain longtime GH fans - is it any wonder some triads are wary of people coming to them with their GH vision?
"You might be one out of the ten people who in LG who has half a brain and uses it, but that doesn't change the FACT that the other nine people are twits who know scads about nothing, and nothing about Greyhawk. I've dealt with them so I'm not talking off the top of my head here or just mouthing off about something I don't know. I've approached several triads in order to work with them and have received little more than a backwash of idiocy."
Now - be honest here - did they really know nothing about Greyhawk, or did they just disagree your ideas (which is not necessarily to say there's anything wrong with your ideas, mind -nor their reasons for disagreeing)? There's a difference.
I'll admit that not everyone on every triad knows as much about Greyhawk as some people here. That's no reason to call them twits or brainless (or half-brainless for that matter - my half a brain sends its thanks for the compliment btw). Everyone of us started off knowing squat about GH. These guys might be further back the learning curve than you, but that's no reason to pee on their heads for it. All you succeed in doing is making them hostile and yourself look arrogant, bitter and twisted. As a method of getting more of your idea of Greyhawk into LG, it's not the best.
"And, furthermore, I would argue that the LGJ has virtually nothing to do with LG. The name, as was pointed out, may very well be similar, but that doesn't mean they are of the same ilk. I challenge you to conduct a survey of your region and find out just how many LG players actually buy and read the LGJ for use in LG games. Of the surveys I've conducted, the overwhelming response was that they don't give a rats-fat about the LGJ. It's only a vocal minority online who are LG players who care about the LGJ. For the most part, it's Greyhawk fans who care about it and just because someone plays LG, does not make them a Greyhawk fan."
Ah - so all GH fans are equal, but some are more equal than others. Would you prefer perhaps that the great unwashed all shooed off your patch and went to play Green Regent or some such, leaving only the half-dozen people who really, really, *really* love GH could have it all to themselves?
All kidding aside - there's a call throughout this board for Hasbro to bring out more GH stuff. Now are the Hasbro bean counters more likely to take an interest in a campaign with lots of people playing it (Corporatese: good profit margin), whose knowledge of the setting is a bit sketchy or a campaign with a few dozen people who can tell you in an instant who Reynevar Snakeheaded is? Is the setting even going to survive without getting people who wouldn't know what Keoland was if you hit them with it to sit down at a table and play in the world of Greyhawk? I don't know the answer to that - but I don't think it can hurt to get more people aware and involved.
Say what you like about LG - but there's a lot more people who are aware of Greyhawk because of it now, than there would have been without LG. That strikes me as a good thing - no better or no worse that the work of those who contribute constructively here and on Canonfire. Yet - you don't get Triad folk coming and calling the Canonfire people half-wits and "drenheads". Even after the contempt you've shown here , I wouldn't say that about you and your work. I might not agree with it (or maybe I would - I've never read any) - but that doesn't give me the right to say you're a brainless twit who can't write and doesn't know anything about Greyhawk. That's just rude, arrogant and disrespectful.
The LGJ is not the same as LG, that's true - but if it's to become even less relevent to LG players than you say it already is, then printing stuff that's not consistant with LG regions is way to do it. I'm not privy to the internal workings of Paizo, and while I'm sure that circulation has a lot to do with it, I'm guessing that at least some of the raison d'etre of the LGJ is to be a companion to the LG campaign. I don't know what the effect of that pretense being removed would be, but if it were to spell the end of the LGJ, that would be, to say the least, a bad thing.
"Err... that'd pretty much explain the current state of LG... Hell, even the meta-regions couldn't organize a stamp licking in a womans prison, let alone co-ordinate the regions activities."
I think that's more than a little unfair (but at least consistant). The Sheldomar Metaregion are working hard on having a coherent plot involving Keoland and its satellites. In the Splintered Sun Metaregion (Iron League and parts of Ahlissa) we bend over backwards to ensure our plots mesh. Now you might disagree with the substance of the plots - but that's different to saying it's not co-ordinated or organised or implying that we are hapless fools.
"Only, you're mistaking LG for canon. There may very well be 14,000 LG players, however that is NOT the majority of Greyhawk fans and I'd further argue that the majority of LG players aren't even fans of Greyhawk. I, for one, think it abhorrent to include such tripe as the ethereal invasion series into Greyhawk canon as, I would suspect, most Greyhawk fans."
No sir, I'm not mistaking LG for canon. I agree that nothing that we've done in Onnwal is canon - bar (IMO) that which makes it past Erik and into the LGJ.
That's not to say we're going to go crazy and have the Scarlet Brotherhood turn into the Lilac Brotherhood (or the Zentarim for that matter ;P) and start spreading their dogma of peace, love and racial equality through subterfuge and tickle fights. Even if LG regional stuff isn't official canon - that's no reason to to ignore canon utterly or to progress the setting in a way that is consistant with canon. I'm not overly enamoured of the ether invasion either - but in it's defence, I will say that they did work some goodly Greyhawk references into it.
I have a (probably vain) hope that someday someone like Erik or Gary (or someone similarly qualified) will pick through the output of LG, winnow the wheat from the chaff and make the good stuff canon. It may never happen - but IMO it's our job as a triad that if it ever did, that our work would be worthy, because if it's good enough for canon, then it's good enough for our players. That's just a matter of having pride in what you do.
"LG is not Greyhawk and I bloody-well hope it never is. Triads should NOT have a say in what is and isn't Greyhawk, just because they're volunteers in a project. Who decided that a comittee of volunteers gets to dictate to Greyhawk fans, what Greyhawk is and isn't? Cool, I stick my hand up and suddenly I have all this power to dictate canon. Get off your high-damn-horse. You're a volunteer for the RPGA, not a chosen representative of Greyhawk canon."
I'm not on any high horse. I'm not the one pouring contempt and scorn on the work of others here. Like I said, the only thing I consider to be canon from LG is the LGJ articles. As far as I'm concerned the guy who gets the call on what's canon and what's not is Erik Mona.
However to say that LG isn't Greyhawk is taking it too far. It's no less Greyhawk than any other campaign. Perhaps you'd like to see a secret GH police swooping down on home campaigns and rating them on whether there's enough GH content and respect of canon in them, but I don't (a far better use of secret GH police would be rooting out sedious cells of FR activity ;P). IMO, as far as campaigns go LG is far less heretical than most home campaigns - it has to be because of its broad exposure.
To say that triads are representatives of GH canon is also off. I agree we are not Arbiters of Canon (that's Erik's job IMO and I would never be so bold as to usurp his crown) - but we should bloody well be representing it, otherwise we might as well be running Green Regent. Triads should have pride in their work and in the setting - and that's why comments like yours are so offensive.
"I would rather see Greyhawk dead than have the triads ruin the setting."
Spoken like a true fan(atic).
Paul
Originally posted by Woesinger
Originally posted by Woesinger
-snip-
Paul
You win... that's WAAAAAY too much for me to be bothered replying to :D
>>>
If I want to write something for the LGJ that is in a triad region, going through that triad is a MAJOR headache and having a bunch of twits edit my work and tell me how things should be based on their moronic interpretations of canon and their half-witted region plots is NOT how I want to spend my time writing for Greyhawk.
>>>
Then don't write for Triaded regions, or don't write for the LGJ at all.
Getting paid money to write official Greyhawk material is not a right. Wizards of the Coast owns Greyhawk lock, stock, and barrel, and could pull the plug on all official Greyhawk material, which would be an unfortunate (but familiar) situation for fans.
The current situation is this: Unlike in the recent past, when Greyhawk was essentially a dirty word sure to stop a submission dead in its tracks, fans can now contribute to the development of the setting by contributing to the Living Greyhawk Journal. While the Journal is geared toward Greyhawk fans of all stripes, it is primarily a support structure for the world's largest RPG campaign. It is because Living Greyhawk exists that the Living Greyhawk Journal exists. Withouth LG, there is no LGJ. Without the LGJ, there is no regular outlet for official Greyhawk published material.
So, honestly, lay off. Find a way to work within the system (by working with Triads or by working in lands outside of triad control, of which there are plenty) or decide that it's not worth the effort.
There are _lots_ of ways to share your Greyhawk ideas without running them through the Journal. Canonfire is but one of many possibilities in this regard.
--Erik
Originally posted by Erik Mona
...Find a way to work within the system (by working with Triads or by working in lands outside of triad control, of which there are plenty) or decide that it's not worth the effort.
I'll side with Erik, here. Oerth has plenty of land mass which has never been detailed - enough for 2-3 hardback books at the very least. Me, I'll stick with the oceans and seas. For that matter, someone could detail Luna, Celene, and other astronomical phenomenon, ala GreySpace.
Something I'd like to get cleared up, once and for all.
Sam, did you, as a Keoland triad guy at the time, have any say over what went into the LGJ write up of Keoland?
I really don't care either way. I like some of what Holian has done with Keoland, I like some of what the triad did with Keoland, it all fits somewhat well with the only canon that matters (in other words, what I've done with Keoland) but I would like to see if this 'triad stamp of approval' system is a reality, or just an excuse given to people who want to write about things LGJ isn't interested in.
One request for a rewrite of a section, because of already developed and released material, was ignored. I remain irked at that, though perhaps I should have just been a total pain about it rather than just asking nicely. Live and learn.
The great majority of the material was of a nature that approval or disapproval was irrelevant at the time. We had no list of Kings, we had no list of provinces, we had no specifically established organizations that would conflict with the ones presented, we had no problems using the ones included. So it was mostly being able to get a heads up on the future appearance, and that was very helpful.
Would I like to change, either with minor or major edits, at least half the article now?
Most certainly.
There are several things that are not very clear, and several others that simply require a bit more tweaking for consistency. Of course, that applies to the entire LGG, so it's shouldn't be taken as some flaw exclusive to the article. (And even my own work at times!)
I feel ambivalent about the use of Oeridian and Suel to distinguish the major "ethnic conflicts" in Keoland. While the triads work presented these terms in a way better than I've previously read, those terms still seem too old to retain common usage at the end of the 7th century CY.
Reviewing the LGH Onnwal website, however, I see that they too use these terms to describe cultural differences within the human society of the Dragonshead Peninsula. Because I live in the United States, with its relatively brief history, it's difficult for me to speculate about retaining racialized heritage for a thousand years.
On Greytalk, I've speculated that the notion of "races of humanity" was adopted by educated humans in the Flanaess (and spread by agents of the Scarlet Brotherhood) during the 4th century CY -- while Keoland invaded present-day Ket and then slowly retreated (in part due to the Brazen Horde). This usage was then normalized in the 5th century CY and has endured over the past two centuries (though with changing definitions). Contact with the Amedians and Olman may have also contributed to the now common notion of "races of humanity."
What do you think?
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon Magazine
You don't have to look very far to see equivalents in our own world. Most racial elements are derived from names rather than outward appearance.
Examples:
Your name is Levi Shwartz and you live in Nazi Germany.
How about Nguyen and you live in Japan. (even now)
How about Said Muhammed right around 9/11?
My point is that there are and always will be a certain amount of racism (not necessarily speaking in the negative) in every culture and Greyhawk should be no different. Sure many people couldn't tell off hand if this person or that is Oeridian or Flan heritage but if they were raised a certain way then undoubtedly their name or the way they dress or something will tell this about them. Most people are proud of their heritage and even if they intermarry one of those heritages will stay strong.
Now if anything I would have a beef about it would be the Suel that live in the Amedio which are still pale and for some reason have survived all this time intact. Interbreeding I guess?
Originally posted by Tizoc
I feel ambivalent about the use of Oeridian and Suel to distinguish the major "ethnic conflicts" in Keoland. While the triads work presented these terms in a way better than I've previously read, those terms still seem too old to retain common usage at the end of the 7th century CY.
On Greytalk, I've speculated that the notion of "races of humanity" was adopted by educated humans in the Flanaess (and spread by agents of the Scarlet Brotherhood) during the 4th century CY -- while Keoland invaded present-day Ket and then slowly retreated (in part due to the Brazen Horde). This usage was then normalized in the 5th century CY and has endured over the past two centuries (though with changing definitions). Contact with the Amedians and Olman may have also contributed to the now common notion of "races of humanity."
What do you think?
For the first, so do I. I still feel that way for the most part, but due to a number issues relating to campaign development, it became forced. Too many regions were making race an issue.
At present, my personal version of Keoland acknowledges the various racial differences exist, but more as a political rallying point than anything truly physical.
However, I must question why you consider this so unusual. Such racial politics are quite common even after a bit over 5 centuries in the US. While I would expect them to be less in the Flanaess, particularly in areas where it is declared that different races combined completely, it is still going to be an issue for some.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
Del said:
>>>
If I want to write something for the LGJ that is in a triad region, going through that triad is a MAJOR headache and having a bunch of twits edit my work and tell me how things should be based on their moronic interpretations of canon and their half-witted region plots is NOT how I want to spend my time writing for Greyhawk.
>>>
Then don't write for Triaded regions, or don't write for the LGJ at all.
Getting paid money to write official Greyhawk material is not a right. Wizards of the Coast owns Greyhawk lock, stock, and barrel, and could pull the plug on all official Greyhawk material, which would be an unfortunate (but familiar) situation for fans.
--Erik
Nicely said Erik. Now maybe we can go back to voting for our favorite cities for LGJ articlage.
City of Greyhawk
Gradsul
Verbobonc
Irongate
Dyvers
Dorakaa
Radigast City
Dantredun
Originally posted by Knightfall
Nicely said Erik. Now maybe we can go back to voting for our favorite cities for LGJ articlage.
City of Greyhawk
Gradsul
Verbobonc
Irongate
Dyvers
Dorakaa
Radigast City
Dantredun
I would vote for Rel Astra and cities of Solnor compact (Roland & Ountsey). Another vote goes for Irongate.
Originally posted by Delglath
You win... that's WAAAAAY too much for me to be bothered replying to :D
Fair enuff ;D
Originally posted by Tizoc
Reviewing the LGH Onnwal website, however, I see that they too use these terms to describe cultural differences within the human society of the Dragonshead Peninsula. [b]
So our take on it was that the history of human habitation in Onnwal was: Flan>Suel>Aerdi/Oerid, with the last event happened (as per the LGG in about -46 CY). The Flan and the Suel mixed very little - the Flan predominently being driven up into the Headlands, where they remain. When the Aerdi came in, they brought planters/settlers with them and mingled with the Suel populace to greater and lesser extents. Thanks to the 1983 boxed set, apparently Onnwal has some of the purest Oerid stock going - so we had to work that in. So we have one region of Onnwal (that along Dunhead Bay) that was heavily "planted" by Oerids and has this "pure" Oerid population the '83 set mentions. We have the bulk of Onnwal, which is mixed, and then we have the rugged northern coast where Suel traditions and blood still predominate.
What "blood" you were didn't much/at all to most Onnwalons (save perhaps some of the more stuffy nobles - and in LG at least Onnwalon nobles have earned a (somewhat undeserved) reputation for being stiff-necked and haughty) until the SB arrived and started catagorising people by their ancestry (or appearance). Those of sufficently Suel decent were classed as subcitizens. They were allowed to keep their property, but had to tow the Brotherhood line. Those that didn't meet the SB's twisted ideals of "purity" were classed as thralls - had their property conficated, were made slaves and forced to work in plantations formed from the confiscated lands.
Though this dispicable regime only really lasted two years, it's left a lot of scars on Onnwal. Those that were enslaved resent those that weren't. As the Brotherhood were Suel, those of Suel descent are viewed with suspicion. Some of the more zealous parts of the Free Onnwal movement have begun to persecute Onnwalons of Suel descent - a classic case of fanatics becoming that which they hate most.
It's always dangerous to start drawing real-world parallels - but if you want to - the fracturing of Yugoslavia is a good example of how people from different ethnic/cultural/religious backgrounds previously living in harmony can become radicalised when ethnic/cultural/religious background is made an issue.
So that's our take on race in Onnwal - it's basically become an issue because the SB made it so.
P.
Onnwal Triad
As far as getting back on topic...
I would love to see some more info on Ratik and the different Suel Barbarian areas...now that they are all free of Triad control I would think these areas would be ripe for an LGJ write up.
Originally posted by Simpi
I would vote for Rel Astra and cities of Solnor compact (Roland & Ountsey). Another vote goes for Irongate.
Your wish is our command. You're very likely to get as much of both as you can handle.
-GLH
Originally posted by Lassiviren
I would love to see some more info on Ratik and the different Suel Barbarian areas...now that they are all free of Triad control I would think these areas would be ripe for an LGJ write up.
Oh yes, this has been discussed.....how would you react to a "Northlands" gazetteer, with nations writeups, mysterious places and dungeons, NPCs, lore, PrCs, for that area?
-GLH
Bring on the damn Nordic campaign!
I'd like to see the areas of the west covered better. I'm especially interested in seeing a beginner's campaign set in one of the island chains of the Dramidj Ocean. My particular favorite is the Janasib Islands.
I'm not holding my breath, but it seems like this would be very cool. Similar to the Al-Qadim setting but with a Greyhawk flavor.
The one phrase in the LGG about the Janasib Isands says parenthetically "the Janasib Isles remain stubbornly independent".
Sounds very intriguing to me. Anybody else interested?
Originally posted by keithu10
My particular favorite is the Janasib Islands...The one phrase in the LGG about the Janasib Isands says parenthetically "the Janasib Isles remain stubbornly independent".
In the background to my Dramidj campaign, I expanded that to:
" The Janasibs are a cluster of five islands, the largest of which is home to a dormant volcano. Within its crater rests a landlocked lake of salt. Numerous pirates have taken shelter along the shores of the Janasibs, wary of the sea hags in the shallows and sylvan creatures which inhabit the plush forests. Aware of their alliance with local merfolk, the Wardens of the Janasibs have sought council with the Matriarchy of Komal. Many of the merrow which inhabit these waters have, of late, displayed magical powers. Though typically encountered in freshwater, these oceangoing creatures have become known as merrow mages. "
Granted, my campaign is mainly concerned with the aquatic residents of the Dramidj. What the drylanders do is their own business, until they go swimming. :D
I hope one or two of the articles comes out soon. I'd love to start seeing the city articles regularly.
Mike
Reviewing the city maps of Greyhawk, Hardby, Narwell, and Safeton, similarities become obvious. Possibly these are due to the early Suel immigration and influence.
Erik, have any Triads sent in cities yet?
Mike
Originally posted by Argon
If their are any members from the Geoff region reading this post. I don't dislike what you did with Geoff. But it is not canon, at least not in any GH published and licensed material ever produced in my life time. But I did enjoy the celtic view taken by the Geoff region. Whether or not I like or agree with everything that was created by the Geoff region is irrelevant. Because we all have different views of our own campaign worlds. I know my campaign does not follow what is GH canon but it does fit my canon.
I agree. The Geoff Regional campaign is based on canonical sources, but is itself not canon. We've had to vary things from Sean Reynold's "Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff" book, because everyone in the region had read it. Also, that book was designed to challenge a single adventuring party, rather than a region of hundreds of PCs.
And we aren't completely celtic. I've been trying to mix in some Native American themes to keep the flavor consistent with other Flannae traditions in Greyhawk.
Eric Menge
Geoff Triad
Originally posted by Argon
Veluna is a pretty well done reigion. My disagreement with one of their lines of thinking is evident in their choice of major npc nobles.
It seems that almost every noble incharge of a diocese is half-elven. If their was one it might be ok but take a look their are too many. Nobility wants to keep their lines as pure as possible. Mixing in elvin blood dilutes a noble lines strength of purity.
This is but one small thing which changes easily in my game. I was surprised to see a gnomish controlled diocese. Which tends to be a bit much as well. But I can see this as Veluna way of keeping or gaining control of land. By granting lordship of the diocese to a gnome the gnomes swear fealty to the archclercy and their resources become part of Veluna. Otherwise Veluna needs to take control by force. I like the way Asnath is controled by a church, noble, and elvin representative yet falls under the control of the Kempton diocese.
Glad you liked what I did. I wrote that original Veluna Gaz back in 2000. Was amazed about how little actually canon material there was outside of the Canon and the Crook. For those interested in more info head over to veluna.living-greyhawk.com for days worth of reading material on Veluna. As well as awesome maps of Veluna and very detailed maps of some of the cities (the map of Mitrik is grade A). The original Veluna Gaz that I wrote up is contained in the files section of the Veluna Yahoogroup currently (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Veluna-lw/) - hopefully I can get it updated here some day in the future.
Also none of the nobles are half-elves. The designations of hf and hm are for human female/male and not half-elf. So no worries there.
The gnome diocese was thought of for the exact reason you mention. A few noble titles and some small parcel of land can do what it would take thousands of dead to accomplish with war.
I really enjoy this kingdom! "Chendl always make me cry"!
"The city of Greyhawk may claim to the Gem of the Flanaess, but I name Chendl to be the Diadem".
---
Almost every material released about Furyondy is binded to Iuz and the Wars. But i´d like to see more on Furyondy´s "peaceful" side. Copy that?
Of course we can´t forget Veluna and Highfolk too!
Mike
I'd really like to see or purchase some of the older out of date Living Greyhawk material from the early years
I prefer following and using established "canon" for a campaign. Using established material you can start off a campaign back in 570 or 580 and let the players move around or change events like finding Prince Thrommel in Temple of Elemental Evil or stopping the fall of the Shield Lands.
Some other things I would like to see are short bios with a paragraph or two on the majority of small towns, large towns, small cities and large cities in the major populated kingdoms like Furyondy, Nyrond, Keoland, Ahlissa and others with a poplulation over 1,00,000.
Preferably with a recommended site on a simple black and white map adding to, "clarifying" and further fleshing out existing products like Guide to The World of Greyhawk Volume III, the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, The Living Greyhawk Journals, Greyhawk Player's Guide and integrating various other 1E to 3.5 sources.
I would really like to see a quote "official" WOTC or LG city class bio for Chendl, Veluna City, Greyhawk, Dvyyers and Rel Mord citing important figures and the "others".
On a personal note I'd like to see Chendl as a Metropolis with a population of 40,000 to 60,000 since it is was a "planned" city and one of the primary revenue generators for the King and bigger would mean more GP in taxation which Belvor is always looking for according to existing canon.
Particularly the "others" section in regarding the four metropolis: Chendl, Dyvvers, Rel Mord and Greyhawk because of existing products and current game demographics really don't mesh number wise and it would help clarify.
Third I would like seeing a few more stats regarding some of the Knightly Orders and armies.
For example Furyondy has a population of 1,481,800 LGG vice 350,000+ WoGFS but is struggling to reach 170 Knights of Furyondy with a level requirement of 3+ GPG (Maybe there is another more common knightly class or two I'm not aware of and Furyondy Knights of the Heart are just one of the most prestigious).
The Knights of the Watch once numbered 6,500 and currently have fewer than 2,500 members while accepting the cream of the crop at levels 3+ from various classes.
Now Veluna with a population of 668,800 has The Knights of Veluna numbering 120 Fighters 7+ .
The Knights of the Holy Shielding and the Order of The Chalice require Paladins 7+. By game demographics I don't see where they and especially The Order of The Chalice (I really liked the recent WOTC web article about their organization but it is HUGE and not supported by game demographics).
A few paragraphs devoted to the Seven Families of Furyondy and some of the Lesser Noble Houses and the Knightly Conclave.
How about the same for The Celestial Order of the Moons in Veluna along with a few sentences describing the reclusive Jolene.
Where are the knightly orders getting these numbers with 90% of the population living in Thorps, Hamlets or Villages (So few (3 max in a village) and at best one Second level and two First Level Paladins by demographics).
Another example by DMG demographics Greyhawk, Chendl and Rel Mord would have 4 level 13 to 16 wizards which might be okay for Chendl with it's writeups after the Greyhawk Wars and possibly Rel Mord if you overlook the Grey Seer and base Archmage Ghiselinn in Hendrenn Halgood.
I really like the Bastion of Faith and College of Magic but they aren't supported by demographics. Hope I'm not asking to much.
Just some of the things I'd like to see.