To start, I have some issues with with a few of the classes, particularly the bard, gladiator, and wizard.
Now the issue I have with the bard and the gladiator are relatively the same. It seems as though these classes are extremely loaded with way to many abilities. Should there be something to balance out the bard losing their spells, yes, and the gladiator should definately be able to contend with the fighter, but as they are written they are a bit much. Both classes recieve some ability or improvement at every level they gain, which is very uncommon for a well balanced core class. The bard should definately gain the poison use ability, and some of the other abilities are nice as well, but I feel they are just too many. The gladiator, also gaining either an ability or improvement at virtually every level, overpowers the fighter. Even with the fighter's extensive feat choices, it would take a very well planned fighter to contend with the raw combat ability of the gladiator, who has double the number of abilities as the fighter.
With regards to the wizard, I was dissapointed to note that apparently the only good choice (power wise, and none of us are power mongers right) is a defiler, with 5 feat choices which increase the "power" of his razing ability, while a preserver is left behind as the weak goody goody.
Now, what suggestions do I have. Well, with regards to the bard and gladiator, simply trim back their class abilities a bit, that should bring them back in balance. For the wizard, there must be some way to play up the preserver, perhaps with feats allowing them to use the mystic energy they channel to different effect, such as healing or defense, rather than simply casting spells. I don't know, I'm working on this one myself.
Well, that's all for now, and I hope I'm not upsetting anyone, particularly not the designers, I just think that with more input we can truly revive Athas and make a game with playing...
I will simply say this.Of course, the gladiator as a incredible load of thing each level, while the fighter as a feat each level. Although, a specialized fighter will be very much powerful than someone that as many things, but nothing as powerful. The balance come there. Since I am no english native (me speak like indian ;) ), the better example come from the multiclass. Although a fighter 5 / Defiler 5 is of the same CR than a 10 level Defiler, your defiler is much more powerful (since he as awfully dangerous spells). That's my point that you have to give more small things each level to the gladiator to compensate for the rapid specialization of the fighter.
As for the bard, they already have access to poison knowledge. Maybe I dont have understood the question.
AND -----> For the ATHAS.ORG, here is a good idea for PRESERVER feats.
Now, what suggestions do I have. Well, with regards to the bard and gladiator, simply trim back their class abilities a bit, that should bring them back in balance. For the wizard, there must be some way to play up the preserver, perhaps with feats allowing them to use the mystic energy they channel to different effect, such as healing or defense , rather than simply casting spells. I don't know, I'm working on this one myself.
Yeah, since defiling is destructing, why not having something that as some reverse effect when you REALLY know how to deal with the preserving magic such as healing or defense?
Originally posted by Grummore
As I am not an incredible numbers cruncher
Of course, the gladiator as a incredible load of thing each level, while the fighter as a feat each level. Although, a specialized fighter will be very much powerful than someone that as many things, but nothing as powerful.
Actually, aside from the first and second level kicker, a fighter gains a feat every other level. If you consider a feat and a class ability equal (which is negotiable), then the fighter, as I said, has half the number of abilities as an equal level gladiator.
Originally posted by Grummore
The balance come there. Since I am no english native (me speak like indian ;) ), the better example come from the multiclass. Although a fighter 5 / Defiler 5 is of the same CR than a 10 level Defiler, your defiler is much more powerful (since he as awfully dangerous spells). That's my point that you have to give more small things each level to the gladiator to compensate for the rapid specialization of the fighter.
I do not dispute that a 5/5 level character vs. a 10 level character is at a serious disadvantage, no matter the classes concerned, but I fail to see how that simple fact concerning multiclassing has anything to do with unbalanced classes.
Originally posted by Grummore
As for the bard, they already have access to poison knowledge. Maybe I dont have understood the question.
I was actually saying that the inclusion of the Poison Use ability is appropriate for the athasian bard, though not a suitable replacement in and of itself for the loss of spellcasting ability.
Originally posted by Caul
Now, I'm as happy as anyone to have this availible thanks to flip and the boys (and girls?), but I have some issues, and I thought that this would be a good place (as I haven't seen one) to discuss them, and possibly get the designers both feedback and suggestions which they can draw from.
Well, they are shooting for errata, but I'm sure concerns with constructive comments are welcome as well.
To start, I have some issues with with a few of the classes, particularly the bard, gladiator, and wizard.
Now the issue I have with the bard and the gladiator are relatively the same. It seems as though these classes are extremely loaded with way to many abilities. Should there be something to balance out the bard losing their spells, yes, and the gladiator should definately be able to contend with the fighter, but as they are written they are a bit much. Both classes recieve some ability or improvement at every level they gain, which is very uncommon for a well balanced core class. The bard should definately gain the poison use ability, and some of the other abilities are nice as well, but I feel they are just too many. The gladiator, also gaining either an ability or improvement at virtually every level, overpowers the fighter. Even with the fighter's extensive feat choices, it would take a very well planned fighter to contend with the raw combat ability of the gladiator, who has double the number of abilities as the fighter.
I haven't had a Gladiator in one of my DS games since the 3e rules were released, so I can't give input on that. However I think they playtested it a little at least before it was put into the document, even if their playtesting group is, comparitively to, let's say Wizards, the equivalent of a grain of sand on Malibu Beach. With regards to the Bard, I look at the Rogue, which does have a rather extensive list of abilities at each level. And I see the Bard and Rogue being similar in many things, while being different in others. The Druid is another example of a base/core class with many abilities popping up, and Druids have spells. The 3.5 Ranger even has a rather sizeable list of abilities. So there's plenty of precidence for a class to get abilities at nearly every level in 3.5 D&D.
With regards to the wizard, I was dissapointed to note that apparently the only good choice (power wise, and none of us are power mongers right) is a defiler, with 5 feat choices which increase the "power" of his razing ability, while a preserver is left behind as the weak goody goody.
Well, the preserver is on par with the d20 Wizard - has to be, because WotC says so. Plus the defiler has always in a Dark Sun game, been a more powerful choice. Of course, there's the whole defiling ash radius to consider, and those things that just cannot be used (once again, because WotC says so) for balancing factors - roleplaying factors. Not many people tend to like wizards in general, but Preservers do have the Veiled Alliance they can join to have at least a few people who "like" them, while Defilers generally have nobody they can rely on across Athas but themselves (and are hunted by everone, from the Sorcerer-Kings to the Veiled Alliance more often than not). Plus a Preserver can always choose to defile. And bear in mind - Preservers are not all good. In fact, I'd say there is just as many evil ones as good ones, and an equal share of neutral ones across Athas. In my own games, I restrict Defilers to any non-good alignment, simply because I believe that the very act of defiling is inherently evil. Someone could have the best intentions in using it, and can counterbalance the corrupting qualities of defiling to make it a neutral act, but to defile is to destroy another piece of Athas, to have there be less vegetation, which runs a chain reaction throughout the ecosystem of that area, effectively destroying the future for an immedaite desire - defilers can "redeem" themselves and work their way to becoming preservers, but while they defile, I just don't think they can be good. Of course, I've had (lengthy) arguements with people in the past about this topic on these boards, which pretty much became a stalemate of sorts, and don't want to get back into it again.
Now, what suggestions do I have. Well, with regards to the bard and gladiator, simply trim back their class abilities a bit, that should bring them back in balance. For the wizard, there must be some way to play up the preserver, perhaps with feats allowing them to use the mystic energy they channel to different effect, such as healing or defense, rather than simply casting spells. I don't know, I'm working on this one myself.[/b]
1. Gladiator - maybe I can see it, as I've mentioned, I don't have any frame of reference to judge it good or bad myself.
2. Bard - then maybe the Druid, Ranger and Rogue should be trimmed as well. Send your ideas to WotC so they can get right on it and produce the 3.75 Ed. rules (lol).
3. Wizard - there's really no precidence for it IMHO, I think the two classes are just fine the way they are. It works, both in game mechanics and in flavor IMHO. I only wish they could put an XP penalty on the defiler to give that class the same problem it had in 2nd Ed., but even without it the class is just fine.
Well, that's all for now, and I hope I'm not upsetting anyone, particularly not the designers, I just think that with more input we can truly revive Athas and make a game with playing...
Well, the designers of the DS3 document have been hard at work for quite a long time. Some of them are actually rather frustrated with people raising questions or wanting drastic changes on their document after it has been released, beyond errata. I believe it is primarily because if they keep changing the rules, they will never be completed, and will not be able to get on to other projects, like the epic/advanced being rules, the monsters, and other supplements for Dark Sun. I say let this be a playtesting time for the community, leave the athas.org team alone to work on other things, see how the rules work for you over time, and figure out some concrete changes you'd like to see (after several other modules have been done up). If a consensus is reached at that time, then I'm sure they might look at it more - after all, they don't have as many of the resources as they would like to have. IMO they have done an excellent job with it, and I hope they will keep up the good work.
Anyone else out there have any thoughts on the subject?
As has been mentioned, a lot of the classes in 3.5 do get frequent ability jumps at new levels. Preservers are exactly on par with a core wizard. They've got all the possiblities that the core wizards have. Given that Defiler's are what's new ... and traditionally the supposedly "more powerful" of the branches ... of course we had to pay a little more attention to them.
We've gotten an extrodinary amount of "this looks like" feedback on all of the classes that we've changed. It's been heard. The document is now published, and things aren't going to change in the near future.
What will get things to change is playtesting feedback. That means real results from actually playing the class. The time for first impression feedback is largely past. You can continue giving it, of course, but it's weighted prettly low at this point. That's no longer what we need. What we need is data on how the classes actually play.
Wizards. If you have been following these boards closely, almost all posts regarding wizards (and boy, have there been many discussions) has tried to incease the power of the defiler relative to the preserver - complete opposite your view. In Dark Sun most people agree that a defiler simply is more powerful - because defiling is taking the easy (more powerful) road.
Bards/Gladiators. I disallow them!