I wanted to hear some of your ideas, experiences in tests, so i can think about this one.
k, thats all...
Burger
1. Figure out what color robes the mage should be wearing.
-this can be easily deduced by the way he handles himself during the Test. There should be many alternative ways to pass.
2. Make sure that the mage is sufficiently skilled in his magic.
-the Test should be designed so that it taxes those spells that the mage in question is familiar with.
3. To teach him a life lesson.
-the hard part in designing the Test. To teach the inconsiderate consideration, the overconfident to be careful, the scared to trust themselves.
And finally if all three points are met, but the mage dies during the Test, he passes and the death isn't real. Like Dalamar who died in his Test, but passed anyway.
He will offer to give her the test. If/when she accepts the test will go something like this.
Part One
She will be ordered to apprehend the her friend (a kender sorcerer) and treat him as a renegade (he won't just give himself up willingly though). Then she would have to decide what to do with him. This will help determine her robe colors and fulfill the specification of fighting a loved one.
Part Two
Something nasty will rise from the Lake that she will have to face and display her spellcasting prowess. Or she will be drawn into the lake and must use her spells to escape... I'm still working on this part, but I like the idea of her being dragged down into the muck by elven undead
*insert evil DM laugh here* This will allow her to use up the bulk of her spells.Part three
Once she has escaped the Lake, (or if she escapes). She will be drawn to or appear in a beautiful forest clearing. There is a dais at the center and as she approaches she will feel a sudden loss of energy as the essence of her magical knowledge will be ripped from her. It will appear as a glowing sphere of energy and will situate itself into a man-sized glass case on the right. On the left another glass case will appear with her mother in it. (She has not seen her mother since her mother disappeared more than 40 years ago.)
There is a little poem that explains that she is to use a special key to unlock only one case. The silver dagger she keeps up her sleeve is the key, but to active the magic she must look into the sun. Each time she looks she becomes a little more blind, but will see a rune that she must trace into her dagger. When 5 runes have been added to the dagger it will glow and this is her cue that it is complete. But by then she will be totally blind. So she'll have to approach the glass cases and choose which one she wants to open. This would be her life lesson. Will she truly choose her magic over her family...?
And her blindness is the price she will pay for her test. Of course the magic item I give her for passing will allow her to see, but she can not see without it. And the powers of the item will grow over time as she does.
Of course that is my carefully laid plan... but players have a way of messing with those so we'll just see how it goes. heh We're still a few games away.
I love the test scenerio however, and the imagery of a blind magus always rocks. In fact, I'm thinking back to a fantasy book I read as a boy. I don't remember the name of the book or much of went on within it (about a bunch magic swords I believe) but I do remember a blind boy. See, this boy that was thought to be blind from birth actually had eyes that could see perfectly well. He just never learned to see because he was so magically gifted he used his mystical senses first and thus relied on them. There was thus some very cool imagery that wasn't based on any images in the boy's narrative.
So my advice is rather than simply giving her vision back, you should give her a mystical blindsight (page 290, DMG). She is thus given a magical item that allows her to magically perceive the world.
I won't repeat what is all written in the DMG about the game mechanics (immunity to gaze attacks, displacement, blur and blindness spells etc) but I will talk about the inability to see colour and the inability to read.
The inability to see colour pretty much gives a sense of the physical beauty in the world around her she'll be missing. She won't notice the paintings on the wall or the mosaics on the floor. Even with her magical item, it will forever be a world of darkness and gloom.
She'll have to have a braille spellbook, or perhaps some kind of tablets with mystic runes carved in them. Something that she can read through touch. This would prevent her from using someone else's scrolls and would pretty much make it impossible to advance ranks in the knowledge skills without an aide to read to her or having a library of her own special books.
If this is a little too harsh, I would suggest that a comprehend languages spell would allow her to read ordinary text and a read magic spell would suffice for her to read spellbooks and scrolls. This would effectively mean she would have to take two rounds to cast a scroll she was found or bought.
So she has lost her sight, but she has gained blindsight which is the same as sight, plus with some special advantages when dealing with certain monsters or spells. It is perhaps a little more useful than the suggested GP worth of the bonus item WoHS receive in their test, but she suffers a few inconveniences.
What do you think?
I wish I was playing in that campaign.
Could be a series of riddles, that should be answered in an amount of time. Failure means that the celling (or whatever that is happening) fall into the noob's head.
k, thats all...
Burger
I like your test very much! Especially "Part Three" catched my attention.
Despite me liking your test I have a little problem with this part and in general with the part of the test in which the apprentice should favor magic over anything else.
Because, if you look at it closely, each time, someone favors magic over a beloved mother (as in your example) it seems to be some kind of evil action.
(let your mother rot, because you want your power back!!).
As in the future I myself will need a PC to take the test, I would likely alter the test as follows:
After the PC reaches the clearing, he comes upon three cages, securely closed next to a few trees.
In the first cage sits a knightly figure, someone clearly identified as a knight of solamnia.
In the second cage sits a humanoid, one, most likely associated with being evil (but not necessarily so). For example an Ogre, or better, a draconian.
In the third cage there is some absolutely evil demon/ devil (whatever it is, it should be clear that this creature is beyond redemption).
Again, the PCs magical power is pulled out of him, forming a glowing ball of magical energy.
Just now, the ball splits up in 3 and each ball settles in the chest of one of the three creatures.
Let a bard or something else appear, tell the PC, the only way to get his FULL power back is to kill all 3 creatures.
Without killing ANY ONE creature, he wont ever be able again to wield magic.
After that, maybe tell a small tale of the deeds of every creature - give them names to be remembered and all that.
Now, this choice seems a lot easier. He HAS to deliberately kill someone to get his magic back (better still, it is a helpless creature). Although D&D is often about killing - the conscious act of killing someone should be seen as something extraordinary if you kill to fulfill some goal.
But this time, if he only chooses to kill the demon, he forfeits his full power but remains good-aligned, becoming a white robe.
It is obvious, that by killing all three he becomes evil-aligned and a black robe and by killing only the devil and the draconian he becomes a red robe.
Of course, only killing the devil does not mean that he will be in fact weaker in magical power. But refering to earlier revisions of the game, it is said that the white robes are advancing in power more slowly, ultimately becoming the mightiest....
This is not true anymore for DL, but by making it clear that the white robes are considered "weakest", gaining power more slowly than the other two orders, it fits nicely with the background of the 3 orders and with the picture gained from taking this part of the test.
Furthermore, it makes it clear that "renegades" are much more powerful (or dangerous) than the orders, because, without taking the test they already have the full magical potential in them.
Before arguing about the "killing a demon is not good":
I read about this part in the Book of exalted deeds. It is quite clear there, that killing someone who is evil beyond redemtion could be considered a good act (at least no evil one).
On the other hand, killing a creature that may become good in its live (or already is), is clearly an evil act.
In this case, killing the draconian would be considered a "neutral" act. A little leeway needs to be given here, because of the nature of the test....
(forgive my bad english, i am from germany)
Greetings, Rorin
If he slays ANYONE he should be considered at least neutral depending on how he does it. If he cries and curses the gods of magic as he slays the demon then he should be Neutral. If he refuses to slay any of the three creatures then he should be considered a White Robe. If he slays them eagerly wishing for his magic back he should be a Black Robe.
Killing for purely selfish reasons (to get gold/magic/power) is not a good thing. It should be unthinkable to a true White Robe, repugnant to a true Red Robe, and, well, another day on the beach for a true Black Robe.
So what if the mage killed both the demon and the knight? Is he evil for killing good, or neutral for maintaining balance?
That one is easy - killing a good creature is always evil.
Especially if the PC in question does not know about the actual dominant alignment (if any).
The demon/devil isn't a danger to anyone. Yes, it is unrepentant, but it is also caged. Slaying a creature that has no capability to do wrong is not a good thing even if that creature is a demon. Slaying the Draconian isn't Neutral, its evil. Slaying the Knight... well.. yeah.
Of course, since we are playing D&D we have to agree on some "set" standards.
One of those "set" standards - at least as i see it - is the book of exalted deeds.
In my case it has nothing to do with the demon actually be able to do evil or not but just with its very nature.
But I think we should not go astray from the core topic. I devised this version of kippers test because i could not see how the PC in his example, given the choice between magic and mother, could choose magic and still remain good.
So I am asking everyone - if you do not think my example is possible, what kind of test would you envision that lets the wizard place magic above all else but still remain true to his alignment?
Rorin
Look at the military, there are hundreds of soldiers who choose to remain in the military when they know they will be away from their families for extended periods of time. Are they evil for making this choice? How about that soldier who renews his contract with the military knowing his wife is pregnant, and that he will be sent to a war-zone and may never see his son\daughter if he gets killed?
How about you play with the PCs expectations a bit. Have him choose which creature is to be let free. give them all stories, and have him have to decide who he sets free based on these stories. The solamnic might be jailed for good reason, and might be planning to kill someone if he gets out. I dont like the choice to kill something....
The test isnt just about what he does, but his reasons behind his actions.....
It was just that Rorin was implying that choosing something over your family is an evil choice.
It is also that very idea of having to choose your family or doing, taking, or accomplishing something else that makes for grand stories and adventures.
Originally posted by ferratus
If this is a little too harsh, I would suggest that a comprehend languages spell would allow her to read ordinary text and a read magic spell would suffice for her to read spellbooks and scrolls. This would effectively mean she would have to take two rounds to cast a scroll she was found or bought.
So she has lost her sight, but she has gained blindsight which is the same as sight, plus with some special advantages when dealing with certain monsters or spells. It is perhaps a little more useful than the suggested GP worth of the bonus item WoHS receive in their test, but she suffers a few inconveniences.
What do you think?
Well, I was tempted to do something like that from the begining, but I was afraid it would end up being a Raistlin rip-off if I "changed her sight" to be drab, just like old goldie. So that was why I thought of making her totally blind, but she is given a mask that allows her to see. But your idea of Blindsight is "exactly" what I was looking for. I was going with the mask because it would make her exotic, sort of a shadow sorcerer type. Her familiar is an owl, so I was going to make it "owl-like" in appearance.
Now as I think about the blindsight... I'm debating over having the mask supply blindsight. And as far as reading goes she will have the ability to read as long as she can touch the words. So spellbooks and scrolls are not a big deal, but writings on a wall she would be blind to...
If I just give her the mystical blindsight (and "blindreading" ability) I suppose I could give her a more useful magic item... thanks for the idea though it's a good one. :D
Originally posted by darthsylver
Hey Kipper, I have a proposition. Whenever I DM DL and have a wizard who needs to take the test, I will summit everything about the character to you and you will come up with a test. This will help me avoid the comment "you are being unfair" with the test. Because I gotta tell you man, you rock with that test. Whenever someone asks for help making a test I will definitely refer them to you.
LOL, sure go ahead. I think it would be fun to brainstorm over something like that.
Oh yeah, if everyone played kender wizards as well as you are at making magic tests, kender wizards have an a-okay in my book.
Heh, kender wizards rock! ;) Although kender sorcerers are a lot of fun too. heh
Originally posted by ferratus
It is indeed, a damn good test. A damn good thing to happen to the character who's playing that mage too. She's going to have a new level of character development, and I can actually picture the character's resulting iconic imagery. How cool is that?
My wife is playing the mage.
And she'll probably be ticked at me when I tell her she's gone blind. heh That's the part I look forward to when all the players realize I'm not kidding. hehI wish I was playing in that campaign.
I wish you were too. I could always use some more players. I only have three players at the moment and could alwasy use more. :D
Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo
I wish you were too. I could always use some more players. I only have three players at the moment and could alwasy use more. :D
I have the opposite problem! 6 players, 1 infant, and four toddlers!
Whenever we run a game, there are at least 12 warm bodies in the house to feed/rein in/watch out for. Much of the roleplaying occurs when one or more adults race off to handle a toddler emergency. This is why I really really like battlemats and miniatures... easier to keep track when the house turns upside down.
Cheers,
Cam
Cheers,
Thyrwyn
I don't know if this isn't a too harsh penalty. I was planning on the following : each time he goes to sleep / becomes unconscious he loses the memories he made since the last time he was asleep / unconscious. This could become a great thing to roleplay.
But what about the new stuff he learns (skills, feats, spells, ...) ? The main character in MEMENTO couldn't make new memories, he only could learn things by instinct (and repetition ?).
Anyone any ideas how to solve this ?
Wizards memorize their spells, don't they, and then sleep on it? He'd be unable to really prepare spells in advance, being basically reduced to memorizing 10 minutes in advance of a situation. Quite a reduction in efficiency. Otherwise this is a pretty cool idea.
On the other hand, he couldn't get better at many skills, too. Knowledge-based skills, certainly, would be nigh-impossible to increase. That's a real burden for any wizard. I'd allow him to increase things like Concentration, Spot, Listen, and several other cross-class skills. But that's the trouble. They're cross-class.
That's ultimately the trouble with this idea. Taking away an Intelligence-based characters short-term memory seems like a really bad idea to me. It would certainly be frustrating as a player. It'd be far more cool a circumstance to deal with as a warrior, ranger, rogue, or many other classes - Still restricting, yes, but not quite the chokehold it is on a Wizard.
But maybe there's a more workable way to do this. I don't know. Something less-harsh?
Originally posted by The Udjat
Wizards memorize their spells, don't they, and then sleep on it? He'd be unable to really prepare spells in advance, being basically reduced to memorizing 10 minutes in advance of a situation. Quite a reduction in efficiency. Otherwise this is a pretty cool idea.
Wizards prepare their spells - they essentially cast the spell and leave the last few gestures and focus components out, so that it's ready to fire off later. The number of spells a wizard can have so prepared is reflected by their spell slots. Sorcerers don't need to do any of this advance preparation, since they pull the spell together on the spot and are exceptionally good at it.
So, technically, losing one's memory has the danger of not remembering which spells you've prepared in advance, but a note to yourself will fix that.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo
Part Two
Something nasty will rise from the Lake that she will have to face and display her spellcasting prowess. Or she will be drawn into the lake and must use her spells to escape... I'm still working on this part, but I like the idea of her being dragged down into the muck by elven undead
This reminds me of the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode where they fight that tar creature, and Tasha Yar dies.
And her blindness is the price she will pay for her test. Of course the magic item I give her for passing will allow her to see, but she can not see without it. And the powers of the item will grow over time as she does.
I like the idea of blindness, as well as "blindsight", especially if it works only on magical writings. Perhaps the character doesn't see normally, but sees things in auras.
The braille spellbook is a cool idea as well. Or just braille writings in general.
Kipper, knowing your wife...she will most definitely kill you.
Excellent test concept. Hats off to you, Kipper.
Originally posted by The Udjat
That's a very cool, if very costly, penalty.
On the other hand, he couldn't get better at many skills, too. Knowledge-based skills, certainly, would be nigh-impossible to increase. That's a real burden for any wizard. I'd allow him to increase things like Concentration, Spot, Listen, and several other cross-class skills. But that's the trouble. They're cross-class.
That's ultimately the trouble with this idea. Taking away an Intelligence-based characters short-term memory seems like a really bad idea to me. It would certainly be frustrating as a player. It'd be far more cool a circumstance to deal with as a warrior, ranger, rogue, or many other classes - Still restricting, yes, but not quite the chokehold it is on a Wizard.
But maybe there's a more workable way to do this. I don't know. Something less-harsh?
I think I'm going to rule it like this : the character can still learn stuff but after he sleeps, he forgets he has learned them. For example, the wizard takes (learns) a spell focus feat and then wonders when he casts a spell the day afterwards why it was more effective all of a sudden. The same goes for most skills. The character gets better at it, but just doesn't know why or since when. Knowledge skills are a bit more tricky. I don't want to penalize the character to much. Is making all knowledge skills cross class (it takes more study before he really gains the knowledge) too harsh ?
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Wizards prepare their spells - they essentially cast the spell and leave the last few gestures and focus components out, so that it's ready to fire off later. The number of spells a wizard can have so prepared is reflected by their spell slots. Sorcerers don't need to do any of this advance preparation, since they pull the spell together on the spot and are exceptionally good at it.
I think this is a great (and correct) way of viewing it.
So, technically, losing one's memory has the danger of not remembering which spells you've prepared in advance, but a note to yourself will fix that.
This reminds me of FIZBAN !!! :D
Originally posted by Nicodemus
I think I'm going to rule it like this : the character can still learn stuff but after he sleeps, he forgets he has learned them. For example, the wizard takes (learns) a spell focus feat and then wonders when he casts a spell the day afterwards why it was more effective all of a sudden. The same goes for most skills. The character gets better at it, but just doesn't know why or since when. Knowledge skills are a bit more tricky. I don't want to penalize the character to much. Is making all knowledge skills cross class (it takes more study before he really gains the knowledge) too harsh ?
I would do the same thing. But when it comes to his magic he's not surprised that a spell has been "maximized" because he just knows it is, even if he doesn't remember preparing it that way.
You could at least ease his burden by giving the poor guy a magical journal and a pen that never runs out of ink. ;) So he might have an overview of the day but all the specifics are gone.
But waking up and not knowing the people you are traveling with or why has got to be totally confusing and scary.
Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo
But waking up and not knowing the people you are traveling with or why has got to be totally confusing and scary.
He will still know everything about everyone up until his test. His 'amnesia' kicks in after he leaves the tower. So he knows he succeeded in his test and he knows who his partymembers are as they all grew up together. NPCs are a different matter. I'll give him some time to find a practical solution for his problem.
Another thing I wonder about is where the test could be taken? Does anyone have any idea for possible locations? The basement of Jenna's Magic Shop in Palanthas ? :D