Why would a moon god turn off the magic to begin with? Wouldn’t it go against the very philosophy of the moon gods? The goal of the moon gods is to have people devote themselves to the magic. While there may be renegades, it would suit the purpose of the moon gods to bring the renegade “back into the fold”, so to speak. There is much more to be gained by having a powerful wizard joining the ranks of the Orders of High Sorcery rather than having their potential to be lost.
This philosophy carries on to the renegade hunters. By having to confront a renegade, a renegade hunter becomes more powerful in the magic, and has a greater understanding of arcana in general.
We do see some rare instances of a moon god taking away magic, but I would like to think that this is rare, and that a moon god would only do this if there would be more harm in the long run than by what good could come of it. It also depends if any agents of the moon gods are in the area or not.
Also, don’t forget the gift of neutrality to all mortals – free will. The more a god interferes with the world, the less free will that a mortal will have.
Anyway, I thought I would pass those thoughts along.
While there may be renegades, it would suit the purpose of the moon gods to bring the renegade “back into the fold”, so to speak. There is much more to be gained by having a powerful wizard joining the ranks of the Orders of High Sorcery rather than having their potential to be lost.
A la Magius. Although he didn't 'officially' return.
We do see some rare instances of a moon god taking away magic
I'd like to see a list of who exactly were those who had their magic taken away by the moon gods.
Palin Majere in "Dragons of a Vanished Moon"
Raistlin Majere in "Legends"
Anyone else?
Originally posted by Primus, the One and Prime
Raistlin Majere in "Legends"
Wouldn't that rather be Raistlin in Dragons of Summer Flame? Didn't he explain how the only way he was allowed out of there was if his magic was taken away?
And he'd already died several times during his stay in the Abyss.
Palin simply refused magic, and Raistlin gave it up in a bargain with Takhisis so that he could return to Krynn. In neither of those cases did a moon god take magic away. You might say that Palin was basically given a chance at an epiphany, where he would have switched out sorcerer levels for wizard levels, and he decided not to take it and give up magic entirely.
Originally posted by jonesy
What then were the circumstances in Soulforge? I'm rummaging through the book now, but can't find the spot were it happens. :whatsthis
I think it was in Brothers in Arms, actually. Par-Salian and Antimodes are talking about a black robe in a town who was being naughty, and Nuitari took the black robe's powers away.
If you come across and adventure path that the DM really wants you to take, what happens when you as a wizard refuses to do what Solinari (the DM) wants? If you simply take away the moon magic bonuses and penalties and sever the relationship with the conclave, then fine. That is the beginning of innumerable adventure hooks. If the DM feels that he can take away magic for trivial offenses (such as what happened in Soulforge) then what? Crawl back to the conclave for an atonement spell? How wizardly is that?
edited for grammar
As I said up above, let the moon gods only be able to take away their benefits, not arcane magic as a whole. Helps explain renegades.
This is an pretty rare case. You also have to remember that this is Nuitari, his policy on renegades is kill first, ask questions later. I doubt this kind of thing would happed to a red or white robed wizard.
Originally posted by True_Blue
As I said up above, let the moon gods only be able to take away their benefits, not arcane magic as a whole. Helps explain renegades.
Exactly. A lot of people go through life perfectly satisfied with basic cable. Others can't do without expanded or digital cable and make ongoing offerings of money to the gods of the cable company for continued service.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Exactly. A lot of people go through life perfectly satisfied with basic cable. Others can't do without expanded or digital cable and make ongoing offerings of money to the gods of the cable company for continued service.
And then there are the renegades who watch via satellite, but don't get as clear a signal from the source.
I wonder what kind of mages are like us with just basic broadcast?
The question has arose lately on why it is that Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari don't just turn off the magic for renegades. This appears to have been done in Brothers in Arms (or was it Soulforge?), where Nuitari took the magic of a black robe who wasn't acting in accordance to the rules of the Conclave.
My own theory is that the "moon gods" would rather have the renegades come "back into the fold", they see it as a test for any mages who track down renegades, and they must also abide by the tenets of free will.
How would you approach this?
To which Margaret replied:
Nuitari is pretty vindictive and I think he would probably punish any black robe or former black robe who crossed him. And just because a renegade is not part of the formal organization doesn't mean that the gods have abandoned him/her. (They did not abandon Raistlin, for example, but
continued to feed him magic, figuring probably that his power would ultimately benefit them.)
Think of a temperamental actress who nevertheless makes lots of money for the studio and so they have to put up with her tantrums and petty demands.
Also you are right. There is probably also some thought that the
renegadesmight return (probably Solinari's view).
Anyway, thought I would pass that along.
Neither Raistlin or Ariakas are renegades. How about that.
Just to add a few thoughts of my own.
1) One can probably belong to the orders in plain sight and still be a renegade. After all, it is kind of hard to eyeball whether or not a mage's fireball is up to snuff at a particular time of the month. Belize is an example of this type of renegade.
2) One can bend the rules and still belong to the orders. Ariakas is an example of this, as perhaps is Raistlin.
3) Nobody has a super renegade sense, not even mages. So if they slip out of their robes and stay under cover, as long as they aren't openly practicing magic, they can remain undetected. There was an elven renegade in the 2e product "Unsung Heroes" who was an example of this.
Which all goes to show that hunting renegades is an extremely sticky proposition. That should make for hunting renegades of good and neutral alignments extremely interesting.
This is not to be confused with having wizardly enemies however. There is no taboo against fighting other wizards outside of the Towers of High Sorcery. If you kill a wizard, even if you yourself are a wizard, that's for the authorities of the state to deal with. Which again, makes hunting renegades a problem if the state doesn't recognize the conclave's rights to imprison or kill its citizens.
As for magic being granted to wizards only if they can maintain the moon god's favour (however hard it is to lose) fundamentally makes it the moon god's power, not the wizard's own. That necessarily means that we'll have to say goodbye to what we have traditionally thought of as wizards, and embrace a more religious model with a hint of supplication.
Now, I'm dissappointed, but this is hardly a new debate so I can roll with it. I've got the sorcerers now to play my wizard personalities, and I would look forward to a religious organization that is significantly different from traditional fantasy religions which are just disguised Judeo-Christian congregationalism and miracle working. I'd like to see bronze idols speaking arcane secrets, multiple levels of initiation, incense and thautamurgy and all that cool mystery cult stuff.
I would be disappointed again if they still had to study, research their own spells, experiment with their own spells and do everything themselves only to have the gods take it away whenever they felt it necessary. Especially now that the sorcerers can cast magic whenever they wish, and the moon gods can't do squat about it. Or can they? Can the gods of magic remove magic from sorcerers? That's something to consider too in this model.
Of course, the new Towers of High Sorcery Sourcebook might have different conclusions than Ms. Weis has on the whole matter. Indeed the conclave might have been lying to her the entire time. Maybe this is just a PR ploy by the conclave to reassure the masses of Ansalon.
*Wizard crosses his fingers* Yeah, if any of our wizards gets out of line, the gods of magic will simply take away his magic, so you have nothing to worry about. But... um... those sorcerers don't have magic from the gods that you and I worship, making them an uncontrollable menace. I suggest you hit them with bricks.
You also have to remember that this is Nuitari, his policy on renegades is kill first, ask questions later. I doubt this kind of thing would happed to a red or white robed wizard.
Um, I thought that was Lunitari's policy. I always thought that Nuitari tried to convince the renegade to join the black robes and if this did not happen then the renegade would be coerced to remain hidden (so the black robe could use him later), and then the black robe would kill the renegade.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Whoever said that Raistlin was a renegade?
The rumor that Raistlin was a renegade is nothing more than propoganda by the White Robes, in order to sully the name of the Black Robe mages. As usual, the Red Robes have done nothing about this. ;)
From page 36 of Dragonlance Adventures...
Renegade wizards are considered by all orders to be a menace to the balance of magic in the world. It was only by the barest of margins that Raistlin, a magic-user of extraordinary powers, retained his station in the Order of the Black Robes since he was obviously intent upon defying them by entering the Abyss and challenging the gods. Why the Conclave did not order his destructions is unknown. (Most believe that it was because they feared they would not be able to stop him.) Thus they sent the dark elf apprentice wizard, Dalamar, to spy on him and eventually attempt to destroy him.
So there you have it. The truth of the matter is that Raistlin was never a renegade, albeit barely. The Conclave was too afraid of him, which says a lot for a spellcaster so young.
Originally posted by ferratus
I would be disappointed again if they still had to study, research their own spells, experiment with their own spells and do everything themselves only to have the gods take it away whenever they felt it necessary. Especially now that the sorcerers can cast magic whenever they wish, and the moon gods can't do squat about it. Or can they? Can the gods of magic remove magic from sorcerers? That's something to consider too in this model.
When the gods of magic brought Palin back to life, they asked him if he'd like the magic back again. He declined. Now, he doesn't have *any* magic - not even sorcery, which he was exceptionally skilled at. I consider this not to be so much a factor of the gods being able to switch magic off, but an element of his resurrection.
And I really don't think the talking idols and mystical supplication is going to happen any time soon, Terry. The Wizards of High Sorcery are going to continue to make use of their laboratories, research libraries, spell experimentation and material components. But it isn't all bad - after all, if you're a legitimate Wizard of High Sorcery instead of a renegade, look at all the membership perks you get.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
And I really don't think the talking idols and mystical supplication is going to happen any time soon, Terry. The Wizards of High Sorcery are going to continue to make use of their laboratories, research libraries, spell experimentation and material components. But it isn't all bad - after all, if you're a legitimate Wizard of High Sorcery instead of a renegade, look at all the membership perks you get.
Well, the simple fact is that you're not a man of power when you're eating at another man's table. Thus, if you want to be truly ambitious, it seems you should be sorcerer.
As for the mystery cult wizards vs. (wizards that get magic fed to them by gods) that is indeed my own personal preference. See, the mindset of the character is going to be "Do what Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari want, because I don't want to lose my magic." Sure they might give latitude to some renegades, but it may not be you. If they will take magic away from that counterfitting black robe wizardess but not Raistlin, it shows that they are either ineffible, incomprehensible, or fickle.
So if you're going to have a clerical mindset, you might as well acknowledge it and use it as a spice for an otherwise traditional class. Let the religious influences take their natural course trickling down. If you take away their aspirations for power, replace it with revealed wonder. Don't just leave them with the drudge work with nothing to show for it. ;)
Originally posted by ferratus
As for magic being granted to wizards only if they can maintain the moon god's favour (however hard it is to lose) fundamentally makes it the moon god's power, not the wizard's own. That necessarily means that we'll have to say goodbye to what we have traditionally thought of as wizards, and embrace a more religious model with a hint of supplication.
Terry, why do you feel that there has to be a religious tone when one gains his power from the gods? What if this were a different setting, and we were talking psionics? If psionics were a gift from a god, would there have to be a religious connection?
The magic of the moon gods is a gift for all those who have the talent to use. It isn’t power given to a divine agent, such as what a cleric receives. It’s a tool, a mystery to be discovered.
I would be disappointed again if they still had to study, research their own spells, experiment with their own spells and do everything themselves only to have the gods take it away whenever they felt it necessary.
And how often is that? Renegades are rare. I think this is something we’re forgetting in recent discussions.
Especially now that the sorcerers can cast magic whenever they wish, and the moon gods can't do squat about it. Or can they? Can the gods of magic remove magic from sorcerers? That's something to consider too in this model.
I highly doubt that the moon gods can control Wild Sorcery, as they are not the origin of it.
Of course, the new Towers of High Sorcery Sourcebook might have different conclusions than Ms. Weis has on the whole matter. Indeed the conclave might have been lying to her the entire time. Maybe this is just a PR ploy by the conclave to reassure the masses of Ansalon.
Margaret gave a quick answer to some questions I had, without knowing the whole overtone of recent discussions. It may be that WotC may want a different take on things.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
When the gods of magic brought Palin back to life, they asked him if he'd like the magic back again. He declined. Now, he doesn't have *any* magic - not even sorcery, which he was exceptionally skilled at. I consider this not to be so much a factor of the gods being able to switch magic off, but an element of his resurrection.
I'm going to disagree with you here, Cam.
*watches as sky falls*
Palin declined the magic of High Sorcery. I think he still has the power to use Wild Sorcery, but chooses not to, as his lifelong devotion to magic has kept him from the things most important to him, namely magic. The gods of magic do not control Wild Sorcery, so they would be unable to deny Palin the power of sorcery.
That's my take on the matter, at least.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Terry, why do you feel that there has to be a religious tone when one gains his power from the gods? What if this were a different setting, and we were talking psionics? If psionics were a gift from a god, would there have to be a religious connection?
It depends. If the psionic powers were given and then never taken back, then no. If it is a conditional gift however, then yes.
Take Cassandra. She was gifted with prophecy by Apollo in exchange for sex. She reneged on her side of the deal. However, Apollo couldn't take back the power so instead he cursed her so her prophecies would never be believed. That is an example of power from a god that isn't overtly religious in nature.
See, I don't mind if there are severe consequences due to acting contrary to the wishes of the lunar dieties. Curse them, hunt them, take away magic's ability make the wizard gloriously complete and make them a crying mockery of their former selves.
Do not however, make the claim that you can simply strip the magic from the wizard (however rarely this happens) and not have a clerical overtone to the class. The ultimate result (and it shows clearly in the way Margaret explained it) is that you are ultimately doing the will of the lunar dieties, not your own.
Originally posted by ferratus
See, the mindset of the character is going to be "Do what Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari want, because I don't want to lose my magic."
Ask yourself, then, what the moon gods want. All three want you to study magic, to discover it for yourself, and to contribute to the overall knowledge and understanding of magic.
If you're a wizard, you're going to study magic. If you're a powerfullly ambitious black robe, you'll delve into that magic to gain the power you need to conquer Ansalon, or whatever. Nuitari is pleased, as you're dedicated to the magic. If you're a Solamnic Auxiliary Mage who has sworn to uphold justice, Solinari is pleased as you're dedicated to the magic.
So long as you're dedicated to the magic and don't break a few Conclave rules, what do the moon gods care?
So if you're going to have a clerical mindset, you might as well acknowledge it and use it as a spice for an otherwise traditional class. Let the religious influences take their natural course trickling down. If you take away their aspirations for power, replace it with revealed wonder. Don't just leave them with the drudge work with nothing to show for it. ;)
The entire reason why wizards gain their magic from the gods of magic, through the waxing and waning of the moons, is to give them some additional and non-traditional flavor.
Originally posted by ferratus
Do not however, make the claim that you can simply strip the magic from the wizard (however rarely this happens) and not have a clerical overtone to the class.
I see a bit of what you mean, although I perceive it differently. I see it as a divine connection (meaning deity, not magic). A clerical overtone, to me, refers more to one who gains their magic from faith in a god.
I think we're talking semantics here.
The ultimate result (and it shows clearly in the way Margaret explained it) is that you are ultimately doing the will of the lunar dieties, not your own.
Gilean's law is that all mortals shall have free will. You make the choices in life, even if that choice is a dedication to magic (and subsequent reverence to the deities of magic).
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I'm going to disagree with you here, Cam.
That's OK - you're also disagreeing with his stat block, in which his effective caster level for sorcerer is 0 despite all of his levels in the class. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I'm going to disagree with you here, Cam.
*watches as sky falls*
Palin declined the magic of High Sorcery. I think he still has the power to use Wild Sorcery, but chooses not to, as his lifelong devotion to magic has kept him from the things most important to him, namely magic. The gods of magic do not control Wild Sorcery, so they would be unable to deny Palin the power of sorcery.
That's my take on the matter, at least.
So wait a minute, Palin turned down the magic because it interfered with things more important, namely magic? I sure hope you meant family there...
Originally posted by Cam Banks That's OK - you're also disagreeing with his stat block, in which his effective caster level for sorcerer is 0 despite all of his levels in the class. ;)
I stand corrected, then.
Originally posted by Daedavias
So wait a minute, Palin turned down the magic because it interfered with things more important, namely magic? I sure hope you meant family there...
Yes, I meant family. That, and Sunday golf. The Staff of Magius makes for a terrible putting wedge... ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Ask yourself, then, what the moon gods want. All three want you to study magic, to discover it for yourself, and to contribute to the overall knowledge and understanding of magic.
Ah, but the gods are ineffible things, and their minds can only be truly understood by your current DM. What the moon gods want is ultimately what the DM thinks they should want. He makes the decisions.
Anyway, I'd like to read from the Soulforge now.
The three were vastly different, yet strangely alike.
"Do you know who we are?" asked the man in white.
Raistlin nodded hesitantly. He knew them. He wasn't sure he understood why or how.
"You pray to us, yet many speak our names with their lips only, not their hearts. Do you truly believe in us?" asked the woman in red.
Solinari spoke sternly. "You are very young. Do you understand the promise youhave made to us? The promise to worship us and glorify our names? To do so will go against the beliefs of many, may put you in mortal danger."
"I understand", Raistlin answered without hesitation.
Nuitari spoke next, his voice like splinters of ice. "Are you prepared to make the sacrifices we will require of you?'
"We will grant your request on one condition. Remember always that you have seen us and spoken to us. Never deny your faith in us, or we will deny you."
As you can see the clerical overtones are clear. Perhaps you and Ms. Weis have a different idea of what the religious nature of the WoHS. Perhaps she wrote it without realizing that an ambitious yet independent wizard who could be denied magic by the gods would be difficult to duplicate consistently at every gaming table. Or perhaps, like I say, the clerical overtones are the logical and natural progression of conditionally granted magic.
So long as you're dedicated to the magic and don't break a few Conclave rules, what do the moon gods care?
Why did Nuitari care about that black robed wizardess counterfitting coins? Why didn't he let his renegade hunters or other wizards handle it? Troubling questions that ultimately need an answer.
The entire reason why wizards gain their magic from the gods of magic, through the waxing and waning of the moons, is to give them some additional and non-traditional flavor.
Yes, but ultimately it isn't very interesting flavour. Now don't get me wrong, I think the moons look very pretty in Krynn's night sky. I also enjoy seeing the moon gods whenever they make their appearance, as they are mysterious and intriguing personalities.
However flavourful for the world however, it doesn't really add much flavour to my character, other than determining the game mechanics of when I get bonus caster levels. See, if you don't plan on having the magic actively granted by the gods to have an immediate impact on how a character belonging to the Wizards of High Sorcery is played, why make such a fuss about it?
Myself, all I care about is consistency, homogeny and making the campaign setting interesting enough to provoke imagery. Now, I'm going to miss the PHB wizard with his beakers, and laboratories and summoning chamber and lust for ultimate power. However, I'm growing more attached to mystery cult wizard as we speak. That chapter I quoted for from earlier was a very good read, and did hold my interest. You'll notice as well that Raistlin descends to Master Theobold's basement laboratory for an initiation and divine encounter. That's got mystery cult written all over it.
Homogeny and Imagery.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Swearing to never use magic again effectively does the same thing. ;)
Yes, I meant family. That, and Sunday golf. The Staff of Magius makes for a terrible putting wedge... ;)
Pitching wedge! Pitching wedge, Trampas! How many times do we have to go over this!
Ok, I think I am done playing your personal assistant for now. Now I can go back to my conspiracy theories about the DM Screen, UFOs, and JFK's assassination. They are all linked, you know:D
Originally posted by ferratus
Myself, all I care about is consistency, homogeny and making the campaign setting interesting enough to provoke imagery. Now, I'm going to miss the PHB wizard with his beakers, and laboratories and summoning chamber and lust for ultimate power. However, I'm growing more attached to mystery cult wizard as we speak. That chapter I quoted for from earlier was a very good read, and did hold my interest. You'll notice as well that Raistlin descends to Master Theobold's basement laboratory for an initiation and divine encounter. That's got mystery cult written all over it.
You seem to think they're mutually exclusive.
Have you tried keeping the mystery cult trappings as well as the dedication to research, laboratories, components and libraries? The Mithraic cultists among the Roman legionaries were able to maintain their own martial skills and training alongside their dedication to the rites and practices of Mithras, because he was a god of soldiers. A god of wizards (indeed, three of them) must surely advocate the scholarly and academic pursuits of the role in addition to the mysteries kept secret from dabblers and renegades.Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Daedavias
Pitching wedge! Pitching wedge, Trampas! How many times do we have to go over this!
Uh...is it that obvious that I don't play golf? :D
Ok, I think I am done playing your personal assistant for now. Now I can go back to my conspiracy theories about the DM Screen, UFOs, and JFK's assassination. They are all linked, you know:D
But of course! The plane carrying the DM Screen ran into a UFO, which crashed behind the grassy knoll (sp?), shooting off a projectile that killed JFK. All of this, in turn, explains why the DM Screen is late! :D
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Uh...is it that obvious that I don't play golf? :D
But of course! The plane carrying the DM Screen ran into a UFO, which crashed behind the grassy knoll (sp?), shooting off a projectile that killed JFK. All of this, in turn, explains why the DM Screen is late! :D
Does it show that I am not a diviner either:embarrass?
Seriously though, I think you guys are all looking way to far into the whole magic thing. I don't think the gods of magic truly are against renegades actually, it may be something similar to the Spanish Inquisition. I highly doubt God really told the pope that he should send people around burning other people at the stake. Mortals can take what is said by a divine being and interpret it in many different ways.
The occasional renegade may make a certain god angry, so they decide to shut the power off to said renegade. It's not that hard of a concept, consider magic to be like electricity in a house. The power is always flowing when the circuits are closed, but all it takes is the flip a switch to shut off the power to a certain thing.
How gods can accomplish their goals is not for mere mortals to even try to comprehend. Remember, these are divine beings, not humans. They can do things that we can't even begin to comprehend.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
A god of wizards (indeed, three of them) must surely advocate the scholarly and academic pursuits of the role in addition to the mysteries kept secret from dabblers and renegades.
Not mutually exclusive no. The mystery cult model works very well for the Wizards of High Sorcery. In fact, we are on the exact same page of what a mystery cult WoHS would entail.
The simple fact is however, that to have a mystery cult you have to have religious overtones, and the simple fact is that getting your magic directly from the gods is a religious connection, if it depends on the god's favour.
Now, if you're going to have a mystery cult you need mysteries to reveal. The traditional role of mystery cults was to provide a path of salvation, which we can all agree the gods of magic don't give a hoot about. They care about the magic itself. So obviously the mysteries they are going to reveal are going to be magical ones.
Of course, I've been thinking these mysteries would be the spells themselves. However, you got me to thinking about what else they could be granting, and after a moment's reflection the answer is obvious. Order Secrets abilities from the WoHS prestige class that you came up with. After all, the Test is the ultimate initiation isn't it? So yeah, spell research and experimentation can stay. Thanks for that insight. That's the reason we use these message boards.
Of course, we still have one big problem left. When, ultimately, do the gods of magic pull the plug?
Originally posted by ferratus
Perhaps you and Ms. Weis have a different idea of what the religious nature of the WoHS.
Perhaps so. Margaret definitely ties in the gods with the WoHS in Soulforge and Brothers in Arms.
Why did Nuitari care about that black robed wizardess counterfitting coins? Why didn't he let his renegade hunters or other wizards handle it? Troubling questions that ultimately need an answer.
Indeed.
However flavourful for the world however, it doesn't really add much flavour to my character, other than determining the game mechanics of when I get bonus caster levels. See, if you don't plan on having the magic actively granted by the gods to have an immediate impact on how a character belonging to the Wizards of High Sorcery is played, why make such a fuss about it?
I think I just see the impact differently than you, is all. I still get plenty of flavor from the moon gods and the Orders of High Sorcery.
Ah, well. I hope we find out some answers in Towers of High Sorcery.
Originally posted by ferratus
Of course, we still have one big problem left. When, ultimately, do the gods of magic pull the plug?
I think some keywords would work here. Betrayal, abuse, threat. Clearly, the gods of magic have personalities and expect something in return for the considerable bonuses they confer upon those which embrace their paths, but it's not always clear what exactly it takes to renege on such a contract. It's interesting that we do have so few examples - the three sibling gods have intentionally removed themselves from their pantheons in order to foster and support arcane magic, so they seem content to let things slide on occasion when looking at the big picture.
One imagines that the wizard's truest expression of his personal power is in turning away from the gods of magic. That would take a lot of willpower, and it's an exercise of free will (Gilean's gift). It would also be the surest way of severing that connection between god and mortal.
I should point out that I don't mind some spiritual or even religious overtones, given that these are gods after all. However, the primary aspect of the Wizards of High Sorcery is in being a wizard, thus those overtones remain background flavor and wouldn't translate to actual game mechanics beyond what is already present in the PrC.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I should point out that I don't mind some spiritual or even religious overtones, given that these are gods after all. However, the primary aspect of the Wizards of High Sorcery is in being a wizard, thus those overtones remain background flavor and wouldn't translate to actual game mechanics beyond what is already present in the PrC.
This is very much how I see the WoHS as well.
Sorry for the "me too" post.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I think some keywords would work here. Betrayal, abuse, threat. Clearly, the gods of magic have personalities and expect something in return for the considerable bonuses they confer upon those which embrace their paths, but it's not always clear what exactly it takes to renege on such a contract.
Yes, but that's not fair to the player if he can only find out what will cause the gods to strip him of magic after the fact. The problem as well with the buzzwords is that all renegades are betrayers, abusers, and threats to the balance of magic. Every last one of them. So where do you draw the line, what do you draw the line with?
As I've said before, I don't want a DM stripping a renegade PC of magic when all other resorts have failed. I think a renegade, if he is crafty and lucky, should be allowed to die in his bed. The whole point of playing a PC is trying to overcome all odds and have an epic story. If the end is inevitable, then renegades simply aren't feasible. Unless of course, you equate renegades with sorcerer and use the epiphany rules in the DLCS. That however has the problem of no renegades before the 5th Age, or sorcery before the 5th Age. Obviously it cannot be the former. The latter would work, but the old guys would have to willing to compromise.
If however it means that renegades are primarily good or neutral, since Nuitari is quickest to seize magic from those who have crossed him, that's an interesting dynamic. However, that means that powerful evil renegades could only cast spells if Takhisis steals the magic for them. That explanation would get old if it used for every wizard that Takhisis has in her employ. Plus, I'm not too eager to get rid of evil renegades in the present, nor have another god start stealing magic, nor have innumerable artifacts which can deny the wishes of Nuitari.
It's interesting that we do have so few examples - the three sibling gods have intentionally removed themselves from their pantheons in order to foster and support arcane magic, so they seem content to let things slide on occasion when looking at the big picture.
Yep, especially considering Raistlin himself. See the gods saw the future, which was the one Tas saw in DoFS. Palin as head of the White Robes, Dalamar as head of the Black Robes. Both ultimately there because of Raistlin. Magic flourishing because of Raistlin's sacrifice. They knew Raistlin would never succeed and thus allowed him to take on the Queen of Darkness.
Of course, this goes a long way to explaining why the relationship between Takhisis and Nuitari was so chilly during the Chaos War.
I should point out that I don't mind some spiritual or even religious overtones, given that these are gods after all. However, the primary aspect of the Wizards of High Sorcery is in being a wizard, thus those overtones remain background flavor and wouldn't translate to actual game mechanics beyond what is already present in the PrC.
Ech. The last thing I want is more rules. I already have to deal with a 700 pages of it. Not all flavour text has to be expressed in game mechanics. You should get off your bed of brass tacks and roll around in the fluff once and awhile.
Originally posted by ferratus
Ech. The last thing I want is more rules. I already have to deal with a 700 pages of it. Not all flavour text has to be expressed in game mechanics. You should get off your bed of brass tacks and roll around in the fluff once and awhile.
Now, now, Terry. I save that for when I run my games and wear the DM hat. In discussions like this, I have to consider the rules in tandem with the story, since the rules are what I do.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Now, now, Terry. I save that for when I run my games and wear the DM hat. In discussions like this, I have to consider the rules in tandem with the story, since the rules are what I do.
Well, the mystery cult won't require any more rules. It would have if wizards didn't research their own spells, but with the Order Secrets there, we shouldn't need any more.
However, we will need some more rules for pulling the plug on magic. If we have it as a fact of magic, yet don't describe the game effects for it, two results occur. Either the DM ignores it which makes the way the wizards work at the gaming table out of tandem with the rest of the dragonlance setting, or the DM takes matters into his own hands and does it arbitrarily, making playing a renegade wizard impossible. Having the DM able to strip a wizard of magic arbitrarily is like saying that a DM can say "Rocks fall out of the sky, you die, no saving throw."
So if a wizard gets a caster level of 0, does he seek an atonement spell? Does he beg forgiveness from the head of the conclave? Can he have an epiphany and swap over to a fully-functioning sorcerer? Can he burn off levels in his wizard class and choose another? Is there a renegade prestige class where you get your magic from another god? What are the rules of the game?
If Towers of High Sorcery doesn't address the rules for pulling the plug, we have to assume they can't or won't. Ever. Unless of course, Renegade hunters drag the wizard all the way back to the Tower of High Sorcery in Wayreth and in the inner sanctums of inner sanctums, in the direct presence of all three gods of magic, then you can strip his magic. A PC can at least avoid or fight his way out of that.
The rules for ex-Wizards of High Sorcery are already there on page 76 of the DLCS. Everything else (such as "what makes the gods of magic mad enough to strip my order benefits away") falls down to a contract between the players and the DM. If a player says, "I'm interested in playing a wizard who turns renegade, and I know it's a risky venture but I'd like to explore that" then it's up the DM to work that into his campaign plan and be accomodating. I suppose that sounds like a cheap answer but it really is the case - if you're not listening to what your players what, or you're not paying attention to what your DM has stated is the case for your campaign, then all the rules in the world won't help you.
Cheers,
Cam
Secondly, pulling the plug on magic fundamentally influences the way magic works. Everything from sorcerers before the 5th Age, what renegades must do to maintain their power, what alignment renegades predominately are. Why ultimately they must be hunted, how they are being hunted. What options must ultimately be present for a renegade, even an insane one, to even consider leaving the conclave.
Plus, it doesn't make sense that the gods would allow the renegades to wreak havoc even if they are waiting for them to return to the fold. See, clerics don't have renegade hunters for a very simple reason. If they **** their diety off, they lose their clerical powers. Done, fini, over.
It causes too many problems to have gods pull the plug on magic. Why can't we just let it lie? Palin and Raistlin voluntarily gave up magic. The black robed wizardess was two lines in a novel who wasn't even worthy of a name.
I beg of all who will make the final decision. Don't open this can of worms. You have everything to lose, and absolutely nothing to gain from this. You do not gain any flavour text, you lose the coherent reason for having both renegades and those who hunt them.
We all know this is true, so what can I do to convince everyone that this is folly? Have my arguments over the last two years fallen on completely deaf ears?
Originally posted by ferratus
We all know this is true, so what can I do to convince everyone that this is folly? Have my arguments over the last two years fallen on completely deaf ears?
I'm old, so perhaps that's the case.
I think you can at this stage be fairly certain of the following, barring any house rules for a given DM's campaign:
1. Gods of magic can pull the plug on their special benefits (i.e. make you an ex-Wizard of High Sorcery).
2. If you're an ex-WoHS, or you choose not to take the Test, you're a renegade and still have wizard spellcasting. Then all you have to do is avoid the Orders coming after you.
There you go. We already went over this on another thread, and came to this conclusion.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Yeah, but if all DM's are going to ignore pulling the plug on magic for the sake of their players, then why bother having it around as an idea (or a fact of the setting) in the first place?
Why have the Fifth Age if DM's will ignore that (and many do)? DM's will house rule almost anything, from rules to setting.
It causes too many problems to have gods pull the plug on magic. Why can't we just let it lie? Palin and Raistlin voluntarily gave up magic. The black robed wizardess was two lines in a novel who wasn't even worthy of a name.
Actually, this fits in quite well with something I wanted to mention.
Dragonlance is full of contradictions and inconsistencies. At some point when we DM, we have to lay down a foundation, even amongst contradicting materials. So how do we do that?
I tend to go by the gaming products (primarily the DLCS) first. Other gaming products and novels fill in the gaps, and add to this.
What we've been doing the last few days is taking mention of a few instances, and centering huge debates on them. The black robe wizardress is the big one, and this is compounded by the fact that it comes from Margaret Weis.
And with all due respect to Margaret (who is one of my favorite authors), I really don't like the idea of Nuitari "pulling the plug". I think he would send other black robes, truth be told. I'm okay with the flavor of the moon gods that Terry was kind enough to post earlier, as I feel that dedication to the magic is synonymous with dedication to the moon gods. I do not view this as the same sort of connection that clerics have with the moon gods, though.
So really, my view on renegades is that presented in the DLCS, which goes back to day one. Perhaps there are exceptions to the rule. Perhaps many stories are simply tales and legends.
My foundation stone, though, is the DLCS.
Have my arguments over the last two years fallen on completely deaf ears?
What? ;)
(Sorry, couldn't resist.) :D
Originally posted by ferratus
Then let nobody speak of stripping wizards of magic again under the penalty of gnomflinger. :headexplo
A gnome who had the tendency to pick his nose has modified this design, and come up with the gnomeflicker 5.0.
I highly doubt that the moon gods can control Wild Sorcery, as they are not the origin of it.
Magic was introduced by the gods of magic either before or during the first dragon war, because after it the gods of magic were banished for their interference in the lives of mortals.
They returned with the graygem and reintroduced magic into the world.
Scions gained wild magic from the graygem and instructed others who had been touched by the graygem on how to use it.
During the second dragon-war, the tower of the sun, with those three famous wild mages, was removed from the world and would become the Lost Citadel. (As stated in ToTL, I do not have my copy of DLA at the moment, in transit from louisiana, yes, I'm moving)
These wild mages became the founder of the WoHS.
So it seems clear to me that the gods of magic were responsible not only for controlled arcane magic but also uncontrolled arcane magic. (Except now they like to blame chaos for the introduction of wild magic). Not that I think the Gods of magic could control wild magic any more than any other god.
See from my perspective, the gods of magic gifted the world with magic but did not teach anyone how to use it, but the scions did (how they knew how to use it is beyond me). When this magic blew up in their face the gods of magic took a step back and said "o-kay time to teach." But instead of teaching how to control wild magic (arcane) they took a step in the way of safety and removed it but taught divine magic but made it into a different form. This way their was no way for wild magic (arcane) to be used, intentionally or inadvertendly, by WoHS as they do not have the wild magic (arcane).
The fifth age would seem to IMO to confirm this, as the gods of magic are gone, and so is the WoHS magic, but the wild magic is not.
I think these are the reasons for being declared a renegade:
1: Sorcerors have an uncontrolled source of power that can blossom into immense proportions and be a danger to the world and may inadvertantly destoy the world.
2: Wizards who break or do not follow the WOHS can, not necessarily do, but can pose a danger to that organization and are feared by the WoHS for the repurcussions that they could cause the populace to take against the WoHS.
(Just look at the Knights of Solamnia for their failure to stop the Cataclysm. It was not their fault but they were blamed and therefore persecuted by the people).
This is just my opinion.
But instead the fact they are the magical government.
Nuitari, Lunithari, and Solanari are after all GODS
The fact that they can remove magic may just be a function of their abilities. Takhasis removed Raistlin's magic after all not Nuitari.
If Nuitari wanted I'm sure he could also remove a mortal's intelligence or ability to enjoy sex without being the god of said aspects
Yes, but that's not fair to the player if he can only find out what will cause the gods to strip him of magic after the fact.
This is an issue more with DM problems than setting problem. Mystra, in Forgetten Realms, can turn off access to magic even to gods. Wizards are still Wizards though in FR. I see the 3 gods of magic in Dragonlance as similar but more concerned with keeping things in order (they are all Lawful after all, right?) so thye created these orders to bring rules and orginization to Wizardry to prevent the chaos (Chaos?) of the Primal Sorcery that existed before the Orders and accidental devistation it caused. In a way these three gods could be considered to be "protecting the pantheon's interests" in the mortal races, giving the mortals the tools to prevent them from accidently blowing themselves up rather than just having religous crusades to expunge all arcane casters "for their own protection".
I'm not sure how much religous dogma and practices go on in the Towers, I always envisioned it as more of a respect and reverence rather than slavish worship. A Wizard of High Sorcery may spend a moment of prayer when they wake, before memorizing spells but for the most part, the practice of wizardry itself is a... I can't think of the word, tribute? to your deity.
But then again, I'm a noob and could easily be wrong
The gods of magic were not concerned (as I infer from their actions) if the wizards blew themselves, or even a good size of the population, up. They were mor econcerned with the survival of magic.
If the populace hunted and killed those three wild mages what was to prevent them from hunting the rest of the wizards to extinction.
The gods removed those wizards and taught a "new way of looking" at magic in order to ensure the survival of magic.
The way I look at it is this. The Scion knew both Mysticism and Sorcery and he\she\it knew how to combine them and then tried to teach it to the 3 wizards. The interaction between mysticism and sorcery was an ingrained part of a scion and therefore could not be taught to a non-scion. The three wild mages performed the magic anyone and they were essentially missing a "component" required for the spell, the component being the blood of a scion.
Sorcery and Mysticism by themselves are nowhere near as distructive when combined without the proper elements.
In short the gods did not take action in order to save the wizards, but to save the magic.
As far as for "protecting the pantheon's interests" the gods of magic have shown they do not care for any interest the pantheon might have but their own. Just as any other god.
As far as for "protecting the pantheon's interests" the gods of magic have shown they do not care for any interest the pantheon might have but their own. Just as any other god.
Sure they do, what I intended from that statment is the interest they are protecting is mortals. If the mortals all ran around with wacky, uncontrolled abilities bringing destruction down on themselves and each other lots of bad things would happen. In the end, I don't think the pantheon wants huge numbers of mortals, who they took the trouble to create and maybe even nurture a bit, to just be erradicated by a few dumbasses who can't control their Maximized, Widened, Enlarged Meteor Swarms.
If the 3 gods of magic intend to be playing a role of keeping mortals safe from themselves and in turn serve the pantheons interest, I don't know. Seems to me what they're doing though. Also, keep in mind that they in turn were created by more powerful (and presuably more wise and insightful) members of the pantheon. They may be accomplishing their inteded goal without realizing it. The orginization thier actions/worship brings makes it much easier for the other deities to persue their own ethos without whole cities of mortals dissapearing 'cause some "wild mage" sneezes.