Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Dec 02, 2003 9:10:40	Here's my problem. A player in my Ravenloft Campaign a while back was playing in the game and at one point, he had to make a powers check. Simple, as it was a single digit percentile he had to roll under. Sure enough, Bam! He rolls a 2 on a D%. He has now taken his first step towards being a darklord at age 19, and all over a very minor crime. Did I do this wrong or is their really a chance that something as simple as lying could cause you to start spitting out spiders on a failed save?
#2 william_cairnstone_dup Dec 02, 2003 9:58:26	Originally posted by OrigamiCommando Here's my problem. A player in my Ravenloft Campaign a while back was playing in the game and at one point, he had to make a powers check. Simple, as it was a single digit percentile he had to roll under. Sure enough, Bam! He rolls a 2 on a D%. He has now taken his first step towards being a darklord at age 19, and all over a very minor crime. Did I do this wrong or is their really a chance that something as simple as lying could cause you to start spitting out spiders on a failed save? There is such a chance. But consider your PC incurs only in very minor offenses, all at 2%. Then, to become a darklord, he would have to fail 6 such power checks. The chance of failing 6 of these in 6 attempts is 2% ^ 6 = 0.02 ^ 6 = 2 ^ 6 * 10 ^ -12 = 0.000000000064 = 0.0000000064%. Relieved ? And no, the first failure will not have him spitting spiders from his mouth. The first step (and even the second) are always very subtle, easily concealable. Only from then on does it get hard to hide the fact you're turning into a monster. W.C.
#3 b4real Dec 02, 2003 10:09:20	Originally posted by William Cairnstone There is such a chance. But consider your PC incurs only in very minor offenses, all at 2%. Then, to become a darklord, he would have to fail 6 such power checks. The chance of failing 6 of these in 6 attempts is 2% ^ 6 = 0.02 ^ 6 = 2 ^ 6 * 10 ^ -12 = 0.000000000064 = 0.0000000064%. Relieved ? And no, the first failure will not have him spitting spiders from his mouth. The first step (and even the second) are always very subtle, easily concealable. Only from then on does it get hard to hide the fact you're turning into a monster. W.C. He must be new to RL or using that piece of garbage known as the RL PHB that has powers check for every little thing. ~B4Real
#4 zombiegleemax Dec 02, 2003 11:07:32	Originally posted by B4Real He must be new to RL or using that piece of garbage known as the RL PHB that has powers check for every little thing. ~B4Real Don't jump too fast at conclusion. In my campaign, the first check ever failed was because a mage tried to reincarnate a fallen comrade. It must have been a 7% thing.
#5 Matthew_L._Martin Dec 02, 2003 11:54:53	Don't forget that part of the metagame purpose of powers checks is to make PCs sliding towards the dark side wake up and ask themselves 'do I _really_ want to continue down this path?'. Stage 1 failures are _meant_ to be fairly minor, and this sounds like it'd be a pretty easy act to atone for. Matthew L. Martin
#6 zombiegleemax Dec 03, 2003 8:43:19	Originally posted by B4Real He must be new to RL or using that piece of garbage known as the RL PHB that has powers check for every little thing. ~B4Real I'm new as far as DMing RL goes. I'm using the original 3rd Ed Ravenloft Corebook which has the powers check rules in it. One of which requires a powers check for telling a lie, which is the very crime I'm referring to. Somewhat off topic, but I was planning on getting the RL DMG and PHB. I heard they have the 3.5 changes. Am I to understand that these are bad books or were you just being sarcastic?
#7 william_cairnstone_dup Dec 03, 2003 9:11:16	Originally posted by OrigamiCommando I'm new as far as DMing RL goes. I'm using the original 3rd Ed Ravenloft Corebook which has the powers check rules in it. One of which requires a powers check for telling a lie, which is the very crime I'm referring to. Somewhat off topic, but I was planning on getting the RL DMG and PHB. I heard they have the 3.5 changes. Am I to understand that these are bad books or were you just being sarcastic? There are two threads running one for each of those books. You'll be better elucidated by reading them. In short, the RL PHB seems to be very bad, while the RL DMG seems to be good. This summary doesn't dispense reading the threads, though :-) W.C.
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 03, 2003 11:02:55	Originally posted by William Cairnstone There are two threads running one for each of those books. You'll be better elucidated by reading them. In short, the RL PHB seems to be very bad, while the RL DMG seems to be good. This summary doesn't dispense reading the threads, though :-) W.C. The RL PHB isn't very bad, it contains new rules that are very bad addition to the rest (which is from the original 3ed setting).
#9 zombiegleemax Dec 04, 2003 9:45:30	Remember what is says in the core rules "the Dark powers hear every word spoken in their realm, but simple lies are beneath their concern." Basicly, simply telling a lie would not warrent a powers check. Its the lie itself that would matter. For instance if the lie was "yes that room is safe (and knowing the room was trapped to slowly fill with acid and would ensure a ligering and agonising death for the poor saps that were going in there) would probably warrent a powers check, whereas "no, I didn;t steal your allowance" or "The checks in the post" probably wouldn't.
#10 b4real Dec 04, 2003 11:33:11	Originally posted by OrigamiCommando I'm new as far as DMing RL goes. I'm using the original 3rd Ed Ravenloft Corebook which has the powers check rules in it. One of which requires a powers check for telling a lie, which is the very crime I'm referring to. Somewhat off topic, but I was planning on getting the RL DMG and PHB. I heard they have the 3.5 changes. Am I to understand that these are bad books or were you just being sarcastic? The RL PHB is not worth the money(That is the only one that is garbage.). The RL DMG is an excellent book. If I were you I would take a look at the RL PHB in the store before you buy it. I can almost guarantee you will end up leaving it on the shelf. ~B4Real
#11 The_Jester Dec 04, 2003 12:10:58	I'm getting the PHB as an early X-mas gift for myself (only way I'll justify it's purchas) and will post a review later. Until then I will say this: The Core Book is considered good, and the PHB is essentially the Core book with ten-twelve new pages (or at least 10-12 that are not so good) there is no way for the PHB to be garbage! Rules can be bad but there have been bad or dumb rules before. For example (and back on topic): the Power Checks rule where you can become a Darklord by doing seven or so small bad things, but only if you're an otherwise good guy. So remember that when you are creating villains, that they can't have commited more than eight murders or they almost MUST be Darklords or close to being ones. This has been the rules since the Black Box! Its good that he failed so he and the group knows they have to censor and control their activities. But remember you don't have to roll a DP check just because the book tells you too, only if the action is really evil or will knowingly lead to evil.
#12 The_Jester Dec 04, 2003 12:14:21	Oh and posting the statistically odd of it happening are rather useless. We're all gamers and should know how probability warps around the table. Three ones in a row and the like. Always low in precentile. I'm sure in someone's game somewhere a player somehow managed to becomed a Darklord in a single session.
#13 b4real Dec 04, 2003 13:55:30	The Book is not worth the $$$. ~Az
#14 zombiegleemax Dec 04, 2003 15:01:54	Originally posted by The_Jester Oh and posting the statistically odd of it happening are rather useless. We're all gamers and should know how probability warps around the table. Three ones in a row and the like. Always low in precentile. I'm sure in someone's game somewhere a player somehow managed to becomed a Darklord in a single session. I do have one player who's character has failed a powers check in every campaign. He's one check away from his domain
#15 john_w._mangrum Dec 04, 2003 21:12:00	Originally posted by The_Jester For example (and back on topic): the Power Checks rule where you can become a Darklord by doing seven or so small bad things, but only if you're an otherwise good guy. So remember that when you are creating villains, that they can't have commited more than eight murders or they almost MUST be Darklords or close to being ones. This has been the rules since the Black Box! No.
#16 The_Jester Dec 05, 2003 0:13:27	Saddly for me Mangrum is right. Infuriating in lack of details, but right. The Power Checks did first appear in Forbidden Lore. Or the Black Box part 2 considering how much of it is an extension of the rules. But other than the serperation of defilement/dessecration there have been no changed to Power Checks.
#17 john_w._mangrum Dec 05, 2003 0:23:21	Originally posted by The_Jester But other than the serperation of defilement/dessecration there have been no changed to Power Checks. No. Originally posted by The_Jester So remember that when you are creating villains, that they can't have commited more than eight murders or they almost MUST be Darklords or close to being ones. This has been the rules since the Black Box! No. Originally posted by The_Jester Oh and posting the statistically odd of it happening are rather useless. No.
#18 The_Jester Dec 05, 2003 2:53:38	I just compared the Forbiden Lore book Oaths of Evil which includes the DP check info to the current one in both the PHB and Campain setting. They look identical! All the % look the same. (I was referring to the rules for rolling them, not the vague guidelines presented in the Realm of Terror boxed set).
#19 william_cairnstone_dup Dec 05, 2003 2:55:37	Originally posted by The_Jester Oh and posting the statistically odd of it happening are rather useless. We're all gamers and should know how probability warps around the table. Three ones in a row and the like. Always low in precentile. I'm sure in someone's game somewhere a player somehow managed to becomed a Darklord in a single session. Yes, but when you work with big numbers, statistics is really true. Which amounts to say you and I are both right: the individual percentage is the one I told you of: 2^6E-16. That means that roughly 1 person in 2^-6E16 will become such a darklord. If we happen to know that person, it's just that bad luck that you didn't bet in lottery instead but the percentage is still true and it works. Do a simulation if you wish. W.C.
#20 william_cairnstone_dup Dec 05, 2003 3:00:34	Originally posted by William Cairnstone Yes, but when you work with big numbers, statistics is really true. Which amounts to say you and I are both right: the individual percentage is the one I told you of: 2^6E-16. That means that roughly 1 person in 2^-6E16 will become such a darklord. If we happen to know that person, it's just that bad luck that you didn't bet in lottery instead but the percentage is still true and it works. Do a simulation if you wish. W.C. Besides, on the matter of the 8 murders to become a darklord: there is a chance, albeit slim, that a character escapes without any punisment a strng of many murders, because failing a powers check is not automatic. W.C.
#21 john_w._mangrum Dec 05, 2003 3:12:01	Yep. Eight murders is enough to become a darklord. (Heck, some of the most prominent earned their domains for less.) But assuming that the act carries a 10% chance of failure (which is high), eight murders is still only roughly equivalent to a 8-in-10 chance of having failed at least one powers check, using my rough, late-night math. ETA: The advisors whispering in my ear are telling me: "The chance to fail at least one 10% powers check in 8 tries is actually about 57% (1 minus the chance that you don't fail any of them, (0.9)^8, times 100 to get percent)."
#22 belac Dec 05, 2003 5:49:36	I don't know about the 3e corebook (I have it, but can't remember off the top of my head), but the 2e book I have (which has the same powers checks rules) says that a darklord has to be particularly motivated and strong-willed, usually. The example it gave was that a weak goblin could become a darklord of a domain when the previous lord died, if he were very evil. He might not have the power to hold on to the domain for long, but he could do it. The powers check rules are a little bit much when it comes to becoming a darklord, but they generally assume that PCs are doing dramatic, darklordish things, not failing random minor checks (which is of course possible.) I think its best to assume that a PC doesn't become a darklord immediately, but becomes so corrupt that his actions get worse and worse. (Actually, that may be the idea anyway.) If you look at most of the lords, they slowly became evil, failing a few minor powers checks, and things began to snowball. They might have only been a little jealous the first time, but because of the powers checks being failed, the murder that makes them a darklord is an act of jealous rage. Basically, the book doesn't specifically say that failing a powers check makes most characters more likely to commit evil in the future, and that may not be the intention, but the snowballing evil effect certainly seems to be what happens with most darklords. (I would point out, however, that some of the darklords of Ravenloft seem to be lords for reasons not much better than "failing a few minor rolls due to a fluke." (Though, by now, most of the darklords that looked lame when introduced have been fleshed out, so that may not be true anymore.) I would like to know why the celestial in charge of the Carnival is a darklord. Is she evil? If not, how did she become a darklord? (Tristan Hiregaard is the only non-evil darklord I can think of, and he's not really a darklord, just linked by body to one.)
#23 william_cairnstone_dup Dec 05, 2003 9:50:32	Originally posted by John W. Mangrum Yep. Eight murders is enough to become a darklord. (Heck, some of the most prominent earned their domains for less.) But assuming that the act carries a 10% chance of failure (which is high), eight murders is still only roughly equivalent to a 8-in-10 chance of having failed at least one powers check, using my rough, late-night math. ETA: The advisors whispering in my ear are telling me: "The chance to fail at least one 10% powers check in 8 tries is actually about 57% (1 minus the chance that you don't fail any of them, (0.9)^8, times 100 to get percent)." Well, although this is not a definitive answer, the chance of failing the mth check on the nth try is: f(n) = Combin(n-1, m) * p^(m) * q^(n-m+1) This gives far smaller chances that you'd expect at first of becoming a darklord on exactly the nth attempt. And the chance of not being a darklord by attempt n is 1 - sum (f(i), m<=i Now for the meaning of the parameters and some data: m is the number of steps to fail to become a darklord, ie, 6. n is the number of attempted power checks p is the probability to fail a powers check. In the examples I give below, 10% q is 1 - p (the chance not to fail a powers check). Just to give you an idea, the chance to have eluded darklordship after m power checks is: m = 6: 99.99946% m = 8: 99.99368% m = 20: 98.55557% m = 30: 91.65804% m = 50: 59.76315% m = 80: 16.8023% m = 100: 5.419131% m = 150: 0.178289% Midpoint chance occurs at m = 55. After 55 powers checks with 10% failing chance, you have roughly 50% (50.6508%) chance of not gaining darklordship (conversely, 49.3492% of being a Darklord) Actually, it's _really_ not tha automatic, nor that easy, to become a darklord...... perhaps this was why the Dark Duo invented a whole lot of new Powers Checks: they studied their probability theory better than us and decided RL had to be more lethal Yours sincerely, hoping to have made the math right, W.C.
#24 zombiegleemax Dec 05, 2003 14:27:21	Aside: I was also under the impression that at Stage Six, the Beast, it's quite possible that the character would be run as an NPC anyway-- and with some paths (the Path of the Brute especially) it's hard to say if the character would really have the wherewithal to become a darklord (a near-mindless darklord would be frankly rather dull!). Charney: has the one player even ever considered trying to redeem himself?
#25 zombiegleemax Dec 05, 2003 14:44:08	Originally posted by Brandi Charney: has the one player even ever considered trying to redeem himself? No, he's transforming into a lich and quite happy about it. Only reason he limits himself is because, as you said, he would become a NPC.
#26 zombiegleemax Dec 05, 2003 18:22:36	Originally posted by Belac I would like to know why the celestial in charge of the Carnival is a darklord. Is she evil? If not, how did she become a darklord? The answer is that she's not a darklord. As an outsider, she has a reality wrinkle. So The Carnival is not really a domain, floating or otherwise, but a group of people moving and camping within her wrinkle. Don't forget that there's even a faction within The Carnival who have used VRGtFiends to figure out her outsider nature and plot against her, believing her a fiend. Insult upon injury.
#27 zombiegleemax Dec 06, 2003 0:45:17	Originally posted by Charney No, he's transforming into a lich and quite happy about it. Only reason he limits himself is because, as you said, he would become a NPC. Hm. Well, if he's having fun, and the rest of the players too, then more power to him, I guess.
#28 zombiegleemax Dec 06, 2003 7:10:25	Originally posted by Brandi Hm. Well, if he's having fun, and the rest of the players too, then more power to him, I guess. Well, other players don't want to play with him anymore.
#29 zombiegleemax Dec 06, 2003 11:20:27	Ah. Somehow I had a feeling that second clause of mine wasn't being fulfilled. Problem players transcend setting and system though, so I won't go further on the matter here (it'd be off-topic besides).
#30 zombiegleemax Dec 07, 2003 13:58:07	The lie actually led about 4 neutrally aligned guards to their death. The rogue in question basically played as a halfling and disguised as a child, got the guards to a manor the PCs had to get into to follow her and all four ended up being led into a patch of quicksand. And it actually counted as a betrayal. Originally posted by John W. Mangrum Yep. Eight murders is enough to become a darklord. (Heck, some of the most prominent earned their domains for less.) But assuming that the act carries a 10% chance of failure (which is high), eight murders is still only roughly equivalent to a 8-in-10 chance of having failed at least one powers check, using my rough, late-night math. ETA: The advisors whispering in my ear are telling me: "The chance to fail at least one 10% powers check in 8 tries is actually about 57% (1 minus the chance that you don't fail any of them, (0.9)^8, times 100 to get percent)." Actually, if you kill PCs, your family members, or the Innocent brutally then it is an Ultimate Act of Darkness and you autofail the powers check according to the chart. You can indeed become a darklord rather easily in 8 murders. I guess I can understand though. Originally posted by Brandi Aside: I was also under the impression that at Stage Six, the Beast, it's quite possible that the character would be run as an NPC anyway-- and with some paths (the Path of the Brute especially) it's hard to say if the character would really have the wherewithal to become a darklord (a near-mindless darklord would be frankly rather dull!). Charney: has the one player even ever considered trying to redeem himself? It wouldn't be the first darklord in ravenloft with animal intelligence. The wildlands has a big crocodile as its darklord, I think.
#31 bob_the_efreet Dec 07, 2003 16:23:30	Originally posted by OrigamiCommando Actually, if you kill PCs, your family members, or the Innocent brutally then it is an Ultimate Act of Darkness and you autofail the powers check according to the chart. You can indeed become a darklord rather easily in 8 murders. I guess I can understand though. Sure, if they're eight really horrible murders of your family/friends. I suppose brutally and painfully slaughtering your family might not make darklord material, though. It wouldn't be the first darklord in ravenloft with animal intelligence. The wildlands has a big crocodile as its darklord, I think. I think it's an intelligent crocodile.
#32 zombiegleemax Dec 07, 2003 18:22:36	Crocodile had a malevolent intelligence before entering Ravenloft, all the animals of the Wildlands did, it seems. Think of the Wildlands as "The Lion King" meets "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" without the songs.
#33 zombiegleemax Dec 07, 2003 22:25:06	Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn Crocodile had a malevolent intelligence before entering Ravenloft, all the animals of the Wildlands did, it seems. Still do, in fact.
#34 john_w._mangrum Dec 08, 2003 4:29:48	Originally posted by OrigamiCommando It wouldn't be the first darklord in ravenloft with animal intelligence. The wildlands has a big crocodile as its darklord, I think. He's far from animal intelligence. All the animals in the Wildlands are far from animal intelligence.
#35 zombiegleemax Dec 08, 2003 10:04:32	In my game, I've made the ruling that becoming a Darklord requires more than just failed powers checks. I've stipulated that at least one of the failed powers checks must come from an Act of Ultimate Darkness. It fits the pattern of the existing Darklords, who are all being punished, after a fashion, for one particularly heinous crime, and it sets the evil character apart from more generic bad guys, forcing him to descend to the deepest reaches of villainy before being cursed/rewarded with his own domain.
#36 zombiegleemax Dec 08, 2003 10:16:08	Originally posted by Ravenshadow In my game, I've made the ruling that becoming a Darklord requires more than just failed powers checks. I've stipulated that at least one of the failed powers checks must come from an Act of Ultimate Darkness. It fits the pattern of the existing Darklords, who are all being punished, after a fashion, for one particularly heinous crime, and it sets the evil character apart from more generic bad guys, forcing him to descend to the deepest reaches of villainy before being cursed/rewarded with his own domain. I also follow this rule unnoficially. Just for the fun of it, here's the power checks the player I was talking about failed. He started as an oulander elven mage. 1-Trying to resurect a fallen friend: Necromantic spell, half chances but still failed 2-Closed a Dairn fortress while a close friend was still in it, crushing him to death: AoUD in my opinion 3-Throwing a fireball at a troublesome ally 4-Leaving a firetrap at his former room in a Inn 5-Standing by as a ally is slowly lowered into an acid pit, knowing all too well that he could have killed the lowly guards (a 9th level wizard after all)
#37 zombiegleemax Dec 08, 2003 13:54:54	Originally posted by Charney 2-Closed a Dairn fortress while a close friend was still in it, crushing him to death: AoUD in my opinion He did that *on purpose*? Why?!
#38 zombiegleemax Dec 08, 2003 14:11:08	Originally posted by Brandi He did that *on purpose*? Why?! I don't remember if there was a real reason. At best, the other PC would have been good and trying to get the elf to act with more "goodness". But I think it's mostly for fun that he killed him. Because the other was putting his armor on within the fortress and he couldn't resist it.
#39 zombiegleemax Dec 08, 2003 15:09:15	Originally posted by Brandi Aside: I was also under the impression that at Stage Six, the Beast, it's quite possible that the character would be run as an NPC anyway-- This is true. Stage 5 states that the PC may convert to an NPC "at the DM's discretion". There is plenty of precedent for this, as Domains of Dread gave the NPC option a % chance, starting as early as the second failed Powers Check, with the probability ratcheted up to 75% by the fifth failed Check. Ouch. Charney: makes me wonder why the other PCs haven't fragged him themselves, as the lich-wannabe certainly has the stink of badness around him? In any case, it sounds like your player is metagaming his brains out at the expense of the other players, although he can't possibly know that the Path of Corruption takes *exactly* 6 steps any more than someone can be *sure* how long it takes to get from Barovia to Vallaki. It's all at the whim of the Dark Powers. If he wanted to get their attention, he's got it -- and he should rest assured (or dismayed) that even the next "harmless white lie" may not be beneath their notice.
#40 zombiegleemax Dec 08, 2003 15:13:54	Originally posted by Levinthauer Charney: makes me wonder why the other PCs haven't fragged him themselves, as the lich-wannabe certainly has the stink of badness around him? In any case, it sounds like your player is metagaming his brains out at the expense of the other players, although he can't possibly know that the Path of Corruption takes *exactly* 6 steps any more than someone can be *sure* how long it takes to get from Barovia to Vallaki. It's all at the whim of the Dark Powers. If he wanted to get their attention, he's got it -- and he should rest assured (or dismayed) that even the next "harmless white lie" may not be beneath their notice. He doesn't know I think, it's me who kept him from descending into total darkness because I'm too nice. The last really evil act he did was killing a PC wight for no reason. Since it was a wight, I didn't bother to role a check or not. And other players just want reasons to kill him. He's got a Knight of the Shadows, and two lawful good warriors who want him dead. But the other players won't just attack him because they're good rpers.
#41 zombiegleemax Dec 08, 2003 19:51:08	Originally posted by Charney But I think it's mostly for fun that he killed him. Because the other was putting his armor on within the fortress and he couldn't resist it. Maybe you should encourage him to look at this game instead; it sounds more his speed.
#42 zombiegleemax Dec 09, 2003 10:02:30	Originally posted by Brandi Maybe you should encourage him to look at this game instead; it sounds more his speed. Maybe lol. Actually I'll just replace vampires by orcs in other words, get him off Ravenloft.